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sidnaq

Can anyone refute or explain this?

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

The core and fundamental aim of all Massenger of Allah and Awlias was teach the mankind the purification of self from all sort of corruption and sins.

And they dont simply do magic and turn us into purified ones. We have to strive hard in following their teachings & in following their path.

 Surah Al-Isra, Verse 19:

وَمَنْ أَرَادَ الْآخِرَةَ وَسَعَىٰ لَهَا سَعْيَهَا وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُم مَّشْكُورًا

And whoever desires the hereafter and strives for it as he ought to strive and he is a believer; (as for) these, their striving shall surely be accepted.

(English - Shakir)

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6 hours ago, First Responder said:

I strongly recommend re-thinking what you just said...it's very disturbing, and is shirky.

We do not have to consider whatever we do not understand it as shirky. Exactly this is the point. Before calling this or that shirky we should ask about the reasons !? It has nothing to do with shirk ! So we should improve our knowledge about religion to understand well what is shirk and what is not.

If you consider such things shirk, then Quran and hadithes are full of shirk !!

Edited by maes

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17 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

And they dont simply do magic and turn us into purified ones. We have to strive hard in following their teachings & in following their path.

 Surah Al-Isra, Verse 19:

وَمَنْ أَرَادَ الْآخِرَةَ وَسَعَىٰ لَهَا سَعْيَهَا وَهُوَ مُؤْمِنٌ فَأُولَٰئِكَ كَانَ سَعْيُهُم مَّشْكُورًا

And whoever desires the hereafter and strives for it as he ought to strive and he is a believer; (as for) these, their striving shall surely be accepted.

(English - Shakir)

I do not said they do magic for purifying others . They themselves strive in slef descipling and purification and teach and invite  others. Our duty is benefit from their teaching. 

Don't think that imams have chosen  for fullfing wishes or for giving wealth. 

 

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2 hours ago, islam25 said:

And it is mandatory on us to learn to be away from sins and satanic exploitation by following the guidance.That is the benefit we are expected to get and not that Imam will give money or cure the disease or so, even by will of Allah and if Allah permits they can. 

Yes exactly. This is very minimal that laymen Shias do tawassul to them only for the worldly things.

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8 minutes ago, maes said:

Yes exactly. This is very minimal that laymen Shias do tawassul to them only for the worldly things.

Ones ultimate value lies in how much one have abstained from sins and more so how much ones broken the chains of worldly desires. Because it's this sins and worldly desires that keeps one away from devine proximity. Otherwards ones devine proximity and closeness Allah depends on how much one have freed himself from low desires of nafs. And it's for which imams and Awlias were. 

Not for fullfillin ones desires of nafs or lower self. So using or believing in Awlias of Allah to be source of fullfillig ones desires is gross ignorance .

May Allah help us to follow quran, prophet puh and Awlias in true sense 

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7 hours ago, First Responder said:

First of Shia's don't believe in that. SOME do. Second of all Sidnaq, read what he/she said:

"course not literally" Does not change the fact that it is shirk. Saying it's not Allah and doing it by the will of Allah ALSO does not change the fact that this is shirk.

You say it is shirk because you do not get the purpose. Yes if one says that Rasulullah is the hand of Allah, or eye of Allah, this can be shirk, depends on the meaning. There is a famous hadith in the books of Sunnies that Shias also agree with. I do not know how they ignore this hadith !

We should not simply condemn people to shirk akbar without investigating what they truly mean.

 

"My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him.

"When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks.

"Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it.
I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him."


It is narrated by al-Bukhari.

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12 minutes ago, maes said:

You say it is shirk because you do not get the purpose. Yes if one says that Rasulullah is the hand of Allah, or eye of Allah, this can be shirk, depends on the meaning. There is a famous hadith in the books of Sunnies that Shias also agree with. I do not know how they ignore this hadith !

We should not simply condemn people to shirk akbar without investigating what they truly mean.

 

"My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him.

"When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks.

"Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it.
I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him."


It is narrated by al-Bukhari.

What do you want to prove by it.

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

What do you want to prove by it.

To prove that this concept can be found also in Sunni literature, making it crucial for Shi'as and Sunnis to believe on it because of its authentic. Also it is not shirk. The person doesn't become part of God nor he is partner with Him.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

To prove that this concept can be found also in Sunni literature, making it crucial for Shi'as and Sunnis to believe on it because of its authentic. Also it is not shirk. The person doesn't become part of God nor he is partner with Him.

@Dhulfikaar.

This tradition is both Shia and sunni books. And scholars have declared it Authentic. And according to Shia Arifs it the stage of   sincerety and Anihillation in Allah  and he becomes the manifestation of atributes of Allah. So it is beyond access of even scholars, how can we express it.

Edited by islam25

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

@Dhulfikaar.

This tradition is both Shia and sunni books. And scholars have declared it Authentic. And according to Shia Arifs it the stage of   sincerety and Anihillation in Allah  and he becomes the manifestation of atributes of Allah. So it is beyond access of even scholars, how can we express it.

True, I agree with it. But I believe the true followers of Ahlulbait (as) may have some degree of it. 

Edited by Dhulfikar

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4 hours ago, islam25 said:

Don't think that imams have chosen  for fullfing wishes or for giving wealth. 

 

I understand Imams as Imams, not like the magic lamp of Alladin.

Although, I do believe they can fulfil wishes & can give wealth to anyone they wish because they are the chosen ones of the One we know as "Malik-ul-Mulk".

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 54:

أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَىٰ مَا آتَاهُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَا آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُم مُّلْكًا عَظِيمًا

Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.

(English - Shakir)

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20 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I understand Imams as Imams, not like the magic lamp of Alladin.

Although, I do believe they can fulfil wishes & can give wealth to anyone they wish because they are the chosen ones of the One we know as "Malik-ul-Mulk".

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 54:

أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَىٰ مَا آتَاهُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَا آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُم مُّلْكًا عَظِيمًا

Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.

(English - Shakir)

They can give , I do not deny . Even Allah can give. So what. Even ordinary person having wealth can give wealth and money to others. 

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7 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

i keep forgetting how common it is among Shias to endorse the practice of praying to others than Allah. There seems to be more support for this notion on this thread than against it.

Also, things like the imam 'managing' all affairs of the creations

@313 Seeker.

Who to you that ,oor how come you reached to conclusion that Shia worship other than Allah. Just wake up. 

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7 hours ago, maes said:

You say it is shirk because you do not get the purpose. Yes if one says that Rasulullah is the hand of Allah, or eye of Allah, this can be shirk, depends on the meaning. There is a famous hadith in the books of Sunnies that Shias also agree with. I do not know how they ignore this hadith !

We should not simply condemn people to shirk akbar without investigating what they truly mean.

 

"My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him.

"When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks.

"Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it.
I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him."


It is narrated by al-Bukhari.

 

6 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

To prove that this concept can be found also in Sunni literature, making it crucial for Shi'as and Sunnis to believe on it because of its authentic. Also it is not shirk. The person doesn't become part of God nor he is partner with Him.

 

3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

I understand Imams as Imams, not like the magic lamp of Alladin.

Although, I do believe they can fulfil wishes & can give wealth to anyone they wish because they are the chosen ones of the One we know as "Malik-ul-Mulk".

Surah An-Nisa, Verse 54:

أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَىٰ مَا آتَاهُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَا آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُم مُّلْكًا عَظِيمًا

Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.

(English - Shakir)

So what if there is a hadith? You also bring me a hadith from the Sunni's as if it will strengthen your case... I won't bring any sources yet, very powerful sources to swallow but let me start off by making you think...So if Ahlul Bayt a.s. can fulfill wishes, give wealth, control the universe like some say, decide who goes to heaven and hell...even worse, the names of Allah manifests them like one person said ....What is left? How are they different than Allah aza wa jal?!?! Don't give me the typical  "by the will" of Allah answer which so far I haven't had a person back it up.

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3 hours ago, islam25 said:

@Salsabeel.

What is difference if Allah will give wealth and money to me. 

Or Imam as will give wealth to me. 

Or Ordinary person having enough  wealth will give to me. 

 

In all cases you have to offer thanks to Almighty because He is the one who makes others wasila for you. Allah is Raziq as per our belief.

How He distributes the rizq is a matter tadabbur. He can make wasila to anyone.

So if an ordinary man helps you, you need to see who is it, who put this idea in the heart of this man to give his wealth to me. 

There are some intresting events in Islamic history, for instance, look at this asbab e nazool of following verse:

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 55:

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Only Allah is your Vali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

(English - Shakir)

Are we allowed to give zakah during prayers? How was the salah of these Murtaza servants of Allah?

:) It surprises me!

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3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Also, things like the imam 'managing' all affairs of the creations

Surah Al-Qadr, Verse 4:

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِم مِّن كُلِّ أَمْرٍ

The angels and Jibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,

(English - Shakir)

The angels descend with the amr or they descend to take the amr? 

Where, on whom the angels descend?

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33 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

In all cases you have to offer thanks to Almighty because He is the one who makes others wasila for you. Allah is Raziq as per our belief.

How He distributes the rizq is a matter tadabbur. He can make wasila to anyone.

So if an ordinary man helps you, you need to see who is it, who put this idea in the heart of this man to give his wealth to me. 

There are some intresting events in Islamic history, for instance, look at this asbab e nazool of following verse:

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 55:

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Only Allah is your Vali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

(English - Shakir)

Are we allowed to give zakah during prayers? How was the salah of these Murtaza servants of Allah?

:) It surprises me!

 

25 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Surah Al-Qadr, Verse 4:

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِم مِّن كُلِّ أَمْرٍ

The angels and Jibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,

(English - Shakir)

The angels descend with the amr or they descend to take the amr? 

Where, on whom the angels descend?

First of All Imam Ali a.s. gave zakat and not Rizq there is a difference.

Second of All the verse is talking about the Angels.

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51 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

In all cases you have to offer thanks to Almighty because He is the one who makes others wasila for you. Allah is Raziq as per our belief.

How He distributes the rizq is a matter tadabbur. He can make wasila to anyone.

So if an ordinary man helps you, you need to see who is it, who put this idea in the heart of this man to give his wealth to me. 

There are some intresting events in Islamic history, for instance, look at this asbab e nazool of following verse:

Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 55:

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Only Allah is your Vali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

(English - Shakir)

Are we allowed to give zakah during prayers? How was the salah of these Murtaza servants of Allah?

:) It surprises me!

That is OK. 

Help other than Allah doesn't exist. And believing imam or ordinary person to be idipendent helper and forgetting Allah constitutes concealed shrik. 

 

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Quote

So what if there is a hadith?

Its not any hadith, it can be found in Shi'a and Sunni as authentic hadith. 

Quote

You also bring me a hadith from the Sunni's as if it will strengthen your case... I won't bring any sources yet, very powerful sources to swallow but let me start off by making you think...So if Ahlul Bayt a.s. can fulfill wishes, give wealth, control the universe like some say, decide who goes to heaven and hell...even worse, the names of Allah manifests them like one person said ....What is left? How are they different than Allah aza wa jal?!?! Don't give me the typical  "by the will" of Allah answer which so far I haven't had a person back it up

Some of what you listed are ghulat beliefs or misunderstand statements. 

What do you understand by "manifesting" throught them?

Edited by Dhulfikar

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1 hour ago, First Responder said:

First of All Imam Ali a.s. gave zakat and not Rizq there is a difference.

:) Zakat can be the source of someone's rizq. This doesn't make Imam Ali "Raziq". Lets see another example, since you're more focusing on rizq:

Surah Al-Insan, Verse 9:

إِنَّمَا نُطْعِمُكُمْ لِوَجْهِ اللَّهِ لَا نُرِيدُ مِنكُمْ جَزَاءً وَلَا شُكُورًا

We only feed you for Allah's sake; we desire from you neither reward nor thanks:

(English - Shakir)

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11 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Zakat can be the source of someone's rizq. This doesn't make Imam Ali "Raziq". Lets see another example, since you're more focusing on rizq:

Surah Al-Insan, Verse 9:

إِنَّمَا نُطْعِمُكُمْ لِوَجْهِ اللَّهِ لَا نُرِيدُ مِنكُمْ جَزَاءً وَلَا شُكُورًا

We only feed you for Allah's sake; we desire from you neither reward nor thanks:

(English - Shakir)

Be it zakat or Rizq everything is of Allah .

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11 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Be it zakat or Rizq everything is of Allah .

Allah gives zakat?

Was that Allah who fed the yateem, miskeen & aseer as mentioned in the 9th verse of Sura-e-Insaan?

Edited by Salsabeel

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53 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Its not any hadith, it can be found in Shi'a and Sunni as authentic hadith. 

Some of what you listed are ghulat beliefs or misunderstand statements. 

What do you understand by "manifesting" throught them?

Again, you act as if you heard it directly from the person who said it, totally bypassing two important points. (1) You seem to dodge the golden rule for shia when it comes to ahadith. You compare the hadith to the Quran and if it agrees, take it if not, throw it at the wall...Ahlul bayt a.s. did not say compare the sahih or weak hadith, they said hadith, which means any hadith regardless how many "scholars" say it's sahih, you HAVE to compare it to the Quran. Which in this case the hadith is useless. (2) I can confidently say without even bringing any sources that, to say names of Allah manifest into humans is shirk.

26 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Zakat can be the source of someone's rizq. This doesn't make Imam Ali "Raziq". Lets see another example, since you're more focusing on rizq:

Surah Al-Insan, Verse 9:

إِنَّمَا نُطْعِمُكُمْ لِوَجْهِ اللَّهِ لَا نُرِيدُ مِنكُمْ جَزَاءً وَلَا شُكُورًا

We only feed you for Allah's sake; we desire from you neither reward nor thanks:

(English - Shakir)

 

24 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Have you seen the quote, to whom i was saying this? And what i was questioning? 

Yes I did, and this is the same verse that ghulat and mughaleen use in their argument of "Ahlul bayt can control the universe as well as give rizq to people". "If Angels do it by the will of Allah, so do the imams" <--- argument

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36 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Zakat can be the source of someone's rizq. This doesn't make Imam Ali "Raziq". Lets see another example, since you're more focusing on rizq:

Surah Al-Insan, Verse 9:

إِنَّمَا نُطْعِمُكُمْ لِوَجْهِ اللَّهِ لَا نُرِيدُ مِنكُمْ جَزَاءً وَلَا شُكُورًا

We only feed you for Allah's sake; we desire from you neither reward nor thanks:

(English - Shakir)

For some reason it did not show in my previous post so I will repeat it...Zakat and Rizq are different, if you insist that ahlul bayt give rizk, I can gladly show you the opposite...If you are prepared mentally, because it is a hadith very hard to swallow...

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2 minutes ago, First Responder said:

Yes I did, and this is the same verse that ghulat and mughaleen use in their argument of "Ahlul bayt can control the universe as well as give rizq to people". "If Angels do it by the will of Allah, so do the imams" <--- argument

Imam can control the universe, can distribute the rizq, can give life, can give death, can bring back the setting sun, can shaqq the moon etc. By the ithn of Allah. 

Do you have any objection in that?

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Again, you act as if you heard it directly from the person who said it, totally bypassing two important points. (1) You seem to dodge the golden rule for shia when it comes to ahadith. You compare the hadith to the Quran and if it agrees, take it if not, throw it at the wall...Ahlul bayt a.s. did not say compare the sahih or weak hadith, they said hadith, which means any hadith regardless how many "scholars" say it's sahih, you HAVE to compare it to the Quran. Which in this case the hadith is useless. (2) I can confidently say without even bringing any sources that, to say names of Allah manifest into humans is shirk.

 

Which Qur'an verses contradict the hadith and how the hadith contradict the Qur'an?

Quote

I can confidently say without even bringing any sources that, to say names of Allah manifest into humans is shirk

Agein, what do you understand by Manifesting? So for example you are saying God can't create a human being that represent His mercy in Earth, it would be shirk?

Edited by Dhulfikar

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2 minutes ago, First Responder said:

 

Again, you act as if you heard it directly from the person who said it, totally bypassing two important points. (1) You seem to dodge the golden rule for shia when it comes to ahadith. You compare the hadith to the Quran and if it agrees, take it if not, throw it at the wall...Ahlul bayt a.s. did not say compare the sahih or weak hadith, they said hadith, which means any hadith regardless how many "scholars" say it's sahih, you HAVE to compare it to the Quran. Which in this case the hadith is useless. (2) I can confidently say without even bringing any sources that, to say names of Allah manifest into humans is shirk.

 

Yes I did, and this is the same verse that ghulat and mughaleen use in their argument of "Ahlul bayt can control the universe as well as give rizq to people". "If Angels do it by the will of Allah, so do the imams" <--- argument

If Allah wills even ordinary person can control. One of our misunderstanding is we ascribe powers to individuals. But in reality it is Allah's. Even according to  quran one of servant of Hazrat suliman brought throne  of Bilqees from far different city in a fraction of second. How? 

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2 minutes ago, First Responder said:

Zakat and Rizq are different, if you insist that ahlul bayt give rizk, I can gladly show you the opposite...If you are prepared mentally, because it is a hadith very hard to swallow...

:) have i said zakat is rizq? 

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3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Imam can control the universe, can distribute the rizq, can give life, can give death, can bring back the setting sun, can shaqq the moon etc. By the ithn of Allah. 

Do you have any objection in that?

No one have objection. 

I too can give rizq and money and help to others. So what? But I can'tattain the level of Proximity to Allah that imam has. 

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