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Ya Allah Madad

Imam Ali and taqqiyah?

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2 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

 

Had Imam Ali a.s ever done taqqiyah? Examples?

No he did not. It was ordered later because your kind started Shia genocide under influential people like Hajjaj bin Yusuf for instance. The fruits of having munafiqs like Muawiya in power over Muslims who bought the clergy and formed their own religion. Much like the Romans formed Trinity with the help of clergy and then persecuted the true believers.

Did the holy Prophet (pbuh) ever said Azaan himself? Nope. So then should we give up saying it?

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4 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

No he did not. It was ordered later because your kind started Shia genocide under influential people like Hajjaj bin Yusuf for instance. The fruits of having munafiqs like Muawiya in power over Muslims who bought the clergy and formed their own religion. Much like the Romans formed Trinity with the help of clergy and then persecuted the true believers.

Did the holy Prophet (pbuh) ever said Azaan himself? Nope. So then should we give up saying it?

Brother it was a simple question but it seems you have answered it in anger.

So it means first three caliphs were not cruel or power hungry. And had not persecuted true believers. Otherwise Imam would had surely stopped them by force or had performed taqqiyah to save their lives.

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6 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

 

You are not helping yourself or your case, your immediate attention is required here and other places where you have left unanswered BASIC questions.

 

 

I had answered questions multiple times there. Will surely come back there after Eid.

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On 6/25/2017 at 6:04 PM, Ya Allah Madad said:

So it means first three caliphs were not cruel or power hungry. And had not persecuted true believers. Otherwise Imam would had surely stopped them by force or had performed taqqiyah to save their lives.

brother the words of Imam Ali as are sufficient to destry your supposition>

Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)2 dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his deat

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-abu-quhafah

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4 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

brother the words of Imam Ali as are sufficient to destry your supposition>

Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)2 dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his deat

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-abu-quhafah

Again ghadir is missing. Why?

To be honest these are words of an arrogant and a coward (who said this after their deaths) not of Imam Ali a.s.

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3 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Again ghadir is missing. Why?

To be honest these are words of an arrogant and a coward (who said this after their deaths) not of Imam Ali a.s.

I have shown that the abubakr leading the prayer story is noting but  fabrications and full of contradictions. thus we have proven the authentic event of ghadeer for leading imam Alii after the pr[phet

Do you mean imama ali is a coward_

are You calling and insulting the  |progeny of the prophet and the best man after the prophet saww_blashmy

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6 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Again ghadir is missing. Why?

To be honest these are words of an arrogant and a coward (who said this after their deaths) not of Imam Ali a.s.

What do you mean by this? I didn't get you who is arrogant and coward?

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14 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

I have shown that the abubakr leading the prayer story is noting but  fabrications and full of contradictions. thus we have proven the authentic event of ghadeer for leading imam Alii after the pr[phet

Do you mean imama ali is a coward_

are You calling and insulting the  |progeny of the prophet and the best man after the prophet saww_blashmy

Brother whatever you dont understand becomes contradiction and fabrication. You have proven nothing. Each time I asked anything about ghadir you just turn away or twist or do copy paste and derail the thread. This is how you proved.

So answer: Where is ghadir in nahjul balagha? If its so important with respect to divine imamah/caliphate then Imam must have said anything about it.

 

10 hours ago, starlight said:

What do you mean by this? I didn't get you who is arrogant and coward?

 

17 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

To be honest these are words of an arrogant and a coward (who said this after their deaths) not of Imam Ali a.s.

In short its a fabrication on name of Imam Ali a.s. Because a brave like Imam Ali a.s will never do taqqiyah (hide his right and their wrongdoings if there are any) when they were alive in front of him. And when they all died started to accuse/blame them as now they can not respond or attack etc.

And if the taqqiyah part is correct then why others will be held accountable when the Imam himself never declared himself a divinely appointed Imam as per ghadir, whose job is to guide people not to hide the truth.

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2 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

 

In short its a fabrication on name of Imam Ali a.s. Because a brave like Imam Ali a.s will never do taqqiyah (hide his right and their wrongdoings if there are any) when they were alive in front of him. And when they all died started to accuse/blame them as now they can not respond or attack etc.

And if the taqqiyah part is correct then why others will be held accountable when the Imam himself never declared himself a divinely appointed Imam per ghadir, whose job is to guide people not to hide the tras uth.

`. As per your claims this sermonis a fabrication .

Can you ou bring the evidence of your such claim which is considered as baseless and false?

The prohet has made the divine appointed of Imam Ali as Mawala of believers at ghaderr. Imam alii has also reminded it on many ocassions but the people have kept their eyes clsoed/

so you blame the leaders after the prophet Imam Ali and the prophet that they have  kept the ummah devoid of the leadership for guidance?

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 hour ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

In short its a fabrication on name of Imam Ali a.s. Because a brave like Imam Ali a.s

So you believe nahjul balagha is a fabrication? There is no point of discussing anything with you when everything you don't like will be labelled a fabrication.

.

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@Ya Allah Madad and why are you so bent on proof of imamat from nahjul balagha?  It is a compilation of rhetoric by Imam Ali (as) and by no means an exhaustive work on the narrations of Imam Ali (as) . The point here is you accept Imam Ali (as) as being the rightful caliph regardless of the book the narration is coming from, provided it's authentic. But if you are not convinced about it you will never believe it and come up with a million things to nitpick like you are doing now. 

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On 6/25/2017 at 0:04 PM, Ya Allah Madad said:

 

Had Imam Ali a.s ever done taqqiyah? Examples?

Assalaamualeykum,

I have come across one authentic hadeeth in our book, where I can show you the example of Imam Ali practicing Taqqiyah in Salaat. There is nothing wrong in taqqiyah, before holy prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã, even companion of the cave had practice taqqiyah, they hid their belief in their heart and outwardly showed polytheism.

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد، عن حريز، عن زرارة قال: قلت لأبي جعفر (عليه السلام): إن أناسا رووا عن أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه أنه صلى أربع ركعات بعد الجمعة لم يفصل بينهن بتسليم؟ فقال: يا زرارة إن أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) صلى خلف فاسق فلما سلم وانصرف قام أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه فصلى أربع ركعات لم يفصل بينهن بتسليم فقال له رجل جنبه: يا أبا الحسن صليت أربع ركعات لم تفصل بينهن؟ فقال: إنها أربع ركعات مشبهات  وسكت. فوالله ما عقل ما قال له.

`Alī ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Hammad from Hariz from Zurarah who has said the following:

“I once asked abu Ja‘far, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, ‘Certain people have narrated that `Amir al-Mu’minin performed four Rak‘at after Friday without any interval of saying Salam (the phrase of offering greeting of peace) in between. He (the Imam) said, ‘O Zurarah, `Amir al-Mu’minin performed Salat (prayer) behind a sinful one. When he said Salam (the phrase of offering greeting of peace) and moved away `Amir al-Mu’minin stood up, performed four Rak‘at without interval in between by means of saying Salam (the phrase of offering greeting of peace). A man from his side then said, ‘O abu al-Hassan you performed four Rak‘at without interval in between.’ He (`Amir al-Mu’minin)) said, ‘They were four similar Rak‘at’ and remained quiet. By Allah, he did not understand what he said.’”

Source: Al-Kāfī by Shaykh al-Kulaynī, Vol 3, Pg 374, H 6.

Grading:

  • Allāmah Al-Majlisī has graded this ḥādīth as “Hasan” in his Mirat ul Uqool, Vol 15, Pg 257.
  •  Shaykh al-Bahrani said ḥādīth is “Ṣaḥīḥ” in his Hada'iq al-nadirah Vol 10, Pg 183.
  • Allāmah al-Ḥillī said ḥādīth is "Hasan" in his Muntahá al-Maṭlab, Vol 1, Pg 370. 
  • Shaykh Muhammad Hasan al-Qudayrī said ḥādīth is "Ṣaḥīḥ" in his Baḥth fī Risālāt al-'ashr, Pg 203.

 

And if you believe Taqqiyah is cowardice then you are not well aware of laws. Imam Ali practiced taqqiyah and remained silent just for the sake of Ummah and did not wanted any disunity among the people. Such case can be seen in the matter of Ibn Umar caliphate, he remained silent and did not fight for his caliphate so that unity can be maintained, read this hadeeth.

Narrated Ikrima bin Khalid: Ibn Umar said, "I went to Hafsa while water was dribbling from her twined braids. I said, 'The condition of the people is as you see, and no authority has been given to me.' Hafsa said, (to me), 'Go to them, and as they (i.e. the people) are waiting for you, and I am afraid your absence from them will produce division amongst them.' " So Hafsa did not leave Ibn Umar till we went to them. When the people differed Mu'awiyah addressed the people saying, 'If anybody wants to say anything in this matter of the Caliphate, he should show up and not conceal himself, for we are more rightful to be a Caliph than he and his father." On that, Habib bin Masalama said (to Ibn Umar), "Why don't you reply to him (i.e. Mu'awiyah)?" `Abdullah bin `Umar said, "I untied my garment that was going round my back and legs while I was sitting and was about to say, 'He who fought against you and against your father for the sake of Islam, is more rightful to be a Caliph.' But I was afraid that my statement might produce differences amongst the people and cause bloodshed, and my statement might be interpreted not as I intended. (So I kept quiet) remembering what Allah has prepared in the Gardens of Paradise (for those who are patient and prefer the Hereafter to this worldly life)." Habib said, "You did what kept you safe and secure (i.e. you were wise in doing so).


Source: Saheeh Al-Bukhari. Pg. # 1009 - 1010, H. # 4108.

Wa aleykumsalaam

Edited by Aquib Rizvi

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2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

`. As per your claims this sermonis a fabrication .

Can you ou bring the evidence of your such claim which is considered as baseless and false?

The prohet has made the divine appointed of Imam Ali as Mawala of believers at ghaderr. Imam alii has also reminded it on many ocassions but the people have kept their eyes clsoed/

so you blame the leaders after the prophet Imam Ali and the prophet that they have  kept the ummah devoid of the leadership for guidance?

Yes. My pleasure. There are proofs both from ilm rijal and from nahjul balagha itself.

Again ghadir ghadir ghadir. But know that you are unable to show any single line about ghadir from words of Imam ALi a.s from nahjul balagha. Where we have fabricated sermons like sermon 3 but seriously nothing about ghadir which as per your belief is divine appoinement. It seems Imam Ali a.s himself never knew that and kept his eyes closed. As you said.

No prophet saww did not devoid anyone. He clearly delivered the message on every occasion including ghadir. And they all understood ghadir in the same way as prophet wanted them to understand and it wasnt about leadership thats why none of them used it in meaning of caliphate for Ali. It was about muwadat (love), just like verse of muwadat.

2 hours ago, starlight said:

So you believe nahjul balagha is a fabrication? There is no point of discussing anything with you when everything you don't like will be labelled a fabrication.

.

Yes. Many parts of it are true but many are fabrications as well. As for as sermon 3 is concerned its the unique one of all sermons. Most part of nahjul balagha clearly contradict it. Also its weak in terms of chain of narrators. Proofs are mentioned below.

2 hours ago, starlight said:

@Ya Allah Madad and why are you so bent on proof of imamat from nahjul balagha?  It is a compilation of rhetoric by Imam Ali (as) and by no means an exhaustive work on the narrations of Imam Ali (as) . The point here is you accept Imam Ali (as) as being the rightful caliph regardless of the book the narration is coming from, provided it's authentic. But if you are not convinced about it you will never believe it and come up with a million things to nitpick like you are doing now. 

Because people here often quote nahjul balagha and its sermons to prove many things esp with respect to matters of caliphate/imamah. But when it comes to ghadir (which is nass or divine text on imamah of Ali as per shia belief) they all became mute. This shows how much importance Imam Ali a.s himself had given to ghadir in terms of Divine Imamah. Seriously not a single line in any of his sermons about ghadir. Not even a fabricated one.

 

Here are some proofs

1. From ilm rijal

Allama Majlisi in Bihar al Anwar collected all chains of sermon 3 from all shia books along with many other reports in the chapter named "Chapter of Ameer al mumineen's PBUH Complaints about those who preceded him from the oppressors who took his right", in total there are 69 narrations in the chapter.

And the researcher of this book shaikh Asif Muhsini in his masharaat Bihar al Anwar vol-2 page 34 said: out of those 69 narrations only no. 17th is correct in chain. And when you check no. 17 its not sermon 3.

 

2. From nahjul balagha

This is sermon 3, which contradicts to many other sermons which are related to many different historical events.

On 6/27/2017 at 11:12 AM, skyweb1987 said:

Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)2 dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his deat

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-abu-quhafah

 

Sermon 92: Leave me and find someone else ...

When people decided to swear allegiance1 at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of `Uthman, he said:

Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.

Comments: If leadership was sole right of ahlebayt then why Imam Ali is running away from it. How can he say Leave me and seek some one else. and If you leave me then I am the same as you are and I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief. Imam Ali a.s did not said anything about ghadir but clearly said I am not interest in caliphate so leave me alone.

 

Sermon 205: Both of you frown over a small matter….

After swearing allegiance to Amir al-mu'minin, Talhah and az-Zubayr complained to him that he had not consulted them or sought their assistance in the affairs (of state).

By Allah, I had no liking for the caliphate nor any interest in government, but you yourselves invited me to it and prepared me for it. When the caliphate came to me, I kept the Book of Allah in my view and all that Allah had put therein for us, and all that according to which He has commanded us to take decisions; and I followed it, and also acted on whatever the Prophet - may Allah bless him and his descendants - had laid down as his sunnah. In this matter I did not need your advice or the advice of anyone else, nor has there been any order of which I was ignorant so that I ought to have consulted you or my Muslim brethren. If it were so I would not have turned away from you or from others.

Comments: Now these are the words of a brave like Imam Ali a.s. Say the truth on their face, and not behind their back after their death. Now here Imam is swearing on Allah (ma sha Allah) that I had no liking for caliphate. After this will there remain any room to say there is a diivine text on Imamah of Ali i.e ghadir. Yet we see shia belief and all their scholars agree to that rejecting imamah of Ali is kufr and the person who did this will surely go to hell-fire.

Shaikh Sadooq says: “We (the Shia) believe concerning the denier of the leadership of the commander of the faithful `Ali bin abi Taalib as well as the Imams after him, that he is like the denier of prophet-hood. Our belief concerning the one who accepts the commander of faithful but rejected one of the Imams after him, then it is as if he believed in all prophets except Muhammad (peace be upon him).”

 

Sermon 37: I took up the task ...

Amir al-mu’minin’s utterance which runs like a Sermon.
About his own steadfastness in religion and precedence in (acceptance of) belief. Spoken after the Battle of Nahrawan
 
I discharged duties when others lost courage (to do so), and I came forward when others hid themselves. I spoke when others remained mum. I stroke with Divine light when others remained standing. I was the quietest of them in voice but the highest in going forward. I cleaved to its rein and applied myself solely to its pledge, like the mountain which neither sweeping wind could move nor storm could shake. No one could find fault with me nor could any speaker speak ill of me.

Comments: Yet we see shias accusing a brave like Imam Ali a.s of doing taqqiyah and remained silent, took no action just for the sake of unity. Unity for which others became disbelievers i.e by rejecting his imamah as per shia theory. This was the unity for which Imam keep quite according to shias.

The low is in my view worthy of honour till I secure (his) right for him while the strong is in my view weak till I take (other’s) right from him. We are happy with the destiny ordained by Allah and have submitted to the command of Allah. Do you think I would speak lie about the Prophet of Allah?

By Allah, I am surely the first to testify him, so I will not be the first to falsify him. I looked at my affairs and found that my obedience should have precedence over my allegiance while my pledge with him is a burden on my neck.

Comments: Here Imam Ali a.s is talking about rights of others and is ready to secure their rights then how could he forgot about his own rights i.e ghadir (biggest right as per shias). The right by rejecting it someone can become kafir in hereafter. Imam futher said: We are happy with the destiny ordained by Allah and have submitted to the command of Allah. But it seems his shias are not happy at all who claim to follow him after prophet saww. And finally he said: my obedience should have precedence over my allegiance while my pledge with him is a burden on my neck. Surely here Imam is talking about his oath of obedience to successor of prophet Hz ABu bakr. Imam Ali remained loyal and obedient to commands Hz ABu bakr.

 

Moreover, in the same nahjul balagha there are mnay sermons of Imam Ali a.s in praise of companions of Prophet saww and he a.s used to pray for them. And in contrast his shias used to curse them day and night. Yet they claim we are the true shias of Ali.

For e.g in sermon 205 Imam Ali prayed for Talha and Zubair along with him in the same dua.

Therefore, I felt no need to turn towards you about a share which had been determined by Allah and in which His verdict has been passed. By Allah, in this matter, therefore, you two or anyone else can have no favour from me. May Allah keep our hearts and your hearts in righteousness, and may He grant us and you endurance.

And in sermon 97 Imam Ali a.s praises the companions of prophet saww in general and admonish his own shias (people of kufa in particular) that I am not seeing anyone amongst you like them. Yet we see shias saying no one among the companions realized haq of Imam except seven of them.

I have seen the companions of the Prophet but I do not find anyone resembling them. They began the day with dust on the hair and face (in hardship of life) and passed the night in prostration and standing in prayers. Sometimes they put down their foreheads and sometimes their cheeks. With the recollection of their resurrection it seemed as though they stood on live coal. It seemed that in between their eyes there were signs like knees of goats, resulting from long prostrations. When Allah was mentioned their eyes flowed freely till their shirt collars were drenched. They trembled for fear of punishment and hope of reward as the tree trembles on the day of stormy wind.

Comments: This also proves they used to ask forgiveness of Allah swt day and night. They fear for Allah's punishment but not with respect to divine imamah or right of Imam Ali. (another shia theory)

 

Furthermore, in the same nahjul balagha in many sermons Imam Ali a.s has condemned his own shias, who were with him all day long, i.e people of kufa.

For e.g in sermon 97 Imam said: O those whose bodies are present but whose wits are absent, whose wishes are scattered, and whose rulers are afflicted by them. Your leader obeys Allah but you disobey him while the leader of the people of Syria (ash-Sham) disobeys Allah but they obey him. By Allah, I wish Mu`awiyah exchanges with me like Dinars with Dirhams, so that he takes from me ten of you and gives me one from them.

And in sermon 25 Imam said: O My God they are disgusted of me and I am disgusted of them. They are weary of me and I am weary of them. Change them for me with better ones and change me for them with worse one.

Comments: So in nahjul balagha we also have Imam's words cursing his own shias but there are no words from him cursing companions of prophet saww rather there are sermons in their praise. And also no words either about ghadir.

 

Conclusion: There are many other similar sermons in nahjul balagha. About more than half of the book is speaking this same language. While the unique fabricated sermon 3 do not fit in the overall theme and style of the sermons of Imam Ali a.s. And we have sermons even on many minor issue but not a single one about ghadir. This make it clear that ghadir has nothing to do with imamah/caliphate.

 

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1 hour ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Yes. My pleasure. There are proofs both from ilm rijal and from nahjul balagha itself.

Again ghadir ghadir ghadir. But know that you are unable to show any single line about ghadir from words of Imam ALi a.s from nahjul balagha. Where we have fabricated sermons like sermon 3 but seriously nothing about ghadir which as per your belief is divine appoinement. It seems Imam Ali a.s himself never knew that and kept his eyes closed. As you said.

No prophet saww did not devoid anyone. He clearly delivered the message on every occasion including ghadir. And they all understood ghadir in the same way as prophet wanted them to understand and it wasnt about leadership thats why none of them used it in meaning of caliphate for Ali. It was about muwadat (love), just like verse of muwadat.

Yes. Many parts of it are true but many are fabrications as well. As for as sermon 3 is concerned its the unique one of all sermons. Most part of nahjul balagha clearly contradict it. Also its weak in terms of chain of narrators. Proofs are mentioned below.

Because people here often quote nahjul balagha and its sermons to prove many things esp with respect to matters of caliphate/imamah. But when it comes to ghadir (which is nass or divine text on imamah of Ali as per shia belief) they all became mute. This shows how much importance Imam Ali a.s himself had given to ghadir in terms of Divine Imamah. Seriously not a single line in any of his sermons about ghadir. Not even a fabricated one.

 

Here are some proofs

1. From ilm rijal

Allama Majlisi in Bihar al Anwar collected all chains of sermon 3 from all shia books along with many other reports in the chapter named "Chapter of Ameer al mumineen's PBUH Complaints about those who preceded him from the oppressors who took his right", in total there are 69 narrations in the chapter.

And the researcher of this book shaikh Asif Muhsini in his masharaat Bihar al Anwar vol-2 page 34 said: out of those 69 narrations only no. 17th is correct in chain. And when you check no. 17 its not sermon 3.

 

2. From nahjul balagha

This is sermon 3, which contradicts to many other sermons which are related to many different historical events.

 

Sermon 92: Leave me and find someone else ...

When people decided to swear allegiance1 at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of `Uthman, he said:

Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.

Comments: If leadership was sole right of ahlebayt then why Imam Ali is running away from it. How can he say Leave me and seek some one else. and If you leave me then I am the same as you are and I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief. Imam Ali a.s did not said anything about ghadir but clearly said I am not interest in caliphate so leave me alone.

 

Sermon 205: Both of you frown over a small matter….

After swearing allegiance to Amir al-mu'minin, Talhah and az-Zubayr complained to him that he had not consulted them or sought their assistance in the affairs (of state).

By Allah, I had no liking for the caliphate nor any interest in government, but you yourselves invited me to it and prepared me for it. When the caliphate came to me, I kept the Book of Allah in my view and all that Allah had put therein for us, and all that according to which He has commanded us to take decisions; and I followed it, and also acted on whatever the Prophet - may Allah bless him and his descendants - had laid down as his sunnah. In this matter I did not need your advice or the advice of anyone else, nor has there been any order of which I was ignorant so that I ought to have consulted you or my Muslim brethren. If it were so I would not have turned away from you or from others.

Comments: Now these are the words of a brave like Imam Ali a.s. Say the truth on their face, and not behind their back after their death. Now here Imam is swearing on Allah (ma sha Allah) that I had no liking for caliphate. After this will there remain any room to say there is a diivine text on Imamah of Ali i.e ghadir. Yet we see shia belief and all their scholars agree to that rejecting imamah of Ali is kufr and the person who did this will surely go to hell-fire.

Shaikh Sadooq says: “We (the Shia) believe concerning the denier of the leadership of the commander of the faithful `Ali bin abi Taalib as well as the Imams after him, that he is like the denier of prophet-hood. Our belief concerning the one who accepts the commander of faithful but rejected one of the Imams after him, then it is as if he believed in all prophets except Muhammad (peace be upon him).”

 

Sermon 37: I took up the task ...

Amir al-mu’minin’s utterance which runs like a Sermon.
About his own steadfastness in religion and precedence in (acceptance of) belief. Spoken after the Battle of Nahrawan
 
I discharged duties when others lost courage (to do so), and I came forward when others hid themselves. I spoke when others remained mum. I stroke with Divine light when others remained standing. I was the quietest of them in voice but the highest in going forward. I cleaved to its rein and applied myself solely to its pledge, like the mountain which neither sweeping wind could move nor storm could shake. No one could find fault with me nor could any speaker speak ill of me.

Comments: Yet we see shias accusing a brave like Imam Ali a.s of doing taqqiyah and remained silent, took no action just for the sake of unity. Unity for which others became disbelievers i.e by rejecting his imamah as per shia theory. This was the unity for which Imam keep quite according to shias.

The low is in my view worthy of honour till I secure (his) right for him while the strong is in my view weak till I take (other’s) right from him. We are happy with the destiny ordained by Allah and have submitted to the command of Allah. Do you think I would speak lie about the Prophet of Allah?

By Allah, I am surely the first to testify him, so I will not be the first to falsify him. I looked at my affairs and found that my obedience should have precedence over my allegiance while my pledge with him is a burden on my neck.

Comments: Here Imam Ali a.s is talking about rights of others and is ready to secure their rights then how could he forgot about his own rights i.e ghadir (biggest right as per shias). The right by rejecting it someone can become kafir in hereafter. Imam futher said: We are happy with the destiny ordained by Allah and have submitted to the command of Allah. But it seems his shias are not happy at all who claim to follow him after prophet saww. And finally he said: my obedience should have precedence over my allegiance while my pledge with him is a burden on my neck. Surely here Imam is talking about his oath of obedience to successor of prophet Hz ABu bakr. Imam Ali remained loyal and obedient to commands Hz ABu bakr.

 

Moreover, in the same nahjul balagha there are mnay sermons of Imam Ali a.s in praise of companions of Prophet saww and he a.s used to pray for them. And in contrast his shias used to curse them day and night. Yet they claim we are the true shias of Ali.

For e.g in sermon 205 Imam Ali prayed for Talha and Zubair along with him in the same dua.

Therefore, I felt no need to turn towards you about a share which had been determined by Allah and in which His verdict has been passed. By Allah, in this matter, therefore, you two or anyone else can have no favour from me. May Allah keep our hearts and your hearts in righteousness, and may He grant us and you endurance.

And in sermon 97 Imam Ali a.s praises the companions of prophet saww in general and admonish his own shias (people of kufa in particular) that I am not seeing anyone amongst you like them. Yet we see shias saying no one among the companions realized haq of Imam except seven of them.

I have seen the companions of the Prophet but I do not find anyone resembling them. They began the day with dust on the hair and face (in hardship of life) and passed the night in prostration and standing in prayers. Sometimes they put down their foreheads and sometimes their cheeks. With the recollection of their resurrection it seemed as though they stood on live coal. It seemed that in between their eyes there were signs like knees of goats, resulting from long prostrations. When Allah was mentioned their eyes flowed freely till their shirt collars were drenched. They trembled for fear of punishment and hope of reward as the tree trembles on the day of stormy wind.

Comments: This also proves they used to ask forgiveness of Allah swt day and night. They fear for Allah's punishment but not with respect to divine imamah or right of Imam Ali. (another shia theory)

 

Furthermore, in the same nahjul balagha in many sermons Imam Ali a.s has condemned his own shias, who were with him all day long, i.e people of kufa.

For e.g in sermon 97 Imam said: O those whose bodies are present but whose wits are absent, whose wishes are scattered, and whose rulers are afflicted by them. Your leader obeys Allah but you disobey him while the leader of the people of Syria (ash-Sham) disobeys Allah but they obey him. By Allah, I wish Mu`awiyah exchanges with me like Dinars with Dirhams, so that he takes from me ten of you and gives me one from them.

And in sermon 25 Imam said: O My God they are disgusted of me and I am disgusted of them. They are weary of me and I am weary of them. Change them for me with better ones and change me for them with worse one.

Comments: So in nahjul balagha we also have Imam's words cursing his own shias but there are no words from him cursing companions of prophet saww rather there are sermons in their praise. And also no words either about ghadir.

 

Conclusion: There are many other similar sermons in nahjul balagha. About more than half of the book is speaking this same language. While the unique fabricated sermon 3 do not fit in the overall theme and style of the sermons of Imam Ali a.s. And we have sermons even on many minor issue but not a single one about ghadir. This make it clear that ghadir has nothing to do with imamah/caliphate.

 

ypu  copy paste material of sermons from nehjul balagha.

what you do this  when you do not consider the sermons as authentic? I consider it extreme hypocrisy

These sermons have already been / dissected with  sunni frined faahd sani, and refuted for sunni claims

as far as ghadeer is concerned either you have a short memory or your hypocricy is exposed the claims for ghadeer have been refuted check the following link:

The claims from your sides of ghadeer has provided the evidences that:

Imaam ali is being blamed to keep the ummah devoid of guided leadership the prophet. this is insult of the progeny of the prophet who are kept way from blemishes.

The prophet has been blamed for keeping the ummah devoid ofthe guided leadership after his detah thisis again insultof the prophet saww as the religion ha been made perfect by Allah swt

the is the insult tp Allah that prophet who did not guide THE UMMah towards guidance  and correct religion

 how such insults can bee tolerated by an muslom, i do not accept such false claims and reejct these  baseless and contrary to the verses of quran and clear hadith of the prophet saww 

The authenticity of the sermon no 3, is well established as per shia and sunni scholars.

The authenticity of Nahjul Balaghah

In his book, the great scholar of Najaf, Sayyid Abdul Zahra Husayni introduces, from authors who lived and died a long time before Sharif al-Radhi, 114 references for most of the sermons included in Nahjul Balaghah. As an example, he mentions that Sermon 3, which elaborates on the issue of the Prophet Muhammad’s succession, was attributed to Imam ‘Ali u long before Sharif al-Radhi compiled Nahjul Balaghah.

This sermon begins with the following statement, ‘By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah donned the mantle of succession in the clear knowledge that my position in relation to that was analogous to that of an axle in relation to a hand mill.’

Those references include the following attributions of this sermon to Imam ‘Ali (as):

- Muhammad bin Abdul Rahman, Ibn Qubbah al Razi, a Mu’tazilites who later turned to the twelve Imams, in ‘Al-Insaaf’.

- Abul Qasim al-Balkhi, who died in 317 AH

- Al-Hasan bin Abdullah al-’Askari.

- Al-Sadouq ibn ‘Ma’ani al-Akhbar’ pp. 360 & ‘Ilal el-Sharaye’ pp. 150

- Ibn Abd Rabbah al-Maliki who died in 328 AH

- Sheikh Mufid, Sharif al-Radhi’s teacher, in ‘Al-Irshad’. This book has been translated into English by Professor Haward.

- Qadi Abd al-Jabbar Mu’tazili who died in 415 AH.

- Abu Saeed Al-Aabi who died in 422 AH

- Sharif Al-Murtadha’ in ‘Al-Shafi’

Ibn Maytham Bahrani in Vol.1 page 252 of his commentary on Nahjul Balaghah, comments that he had found that sermon in two books, both written before the birth of Sharif al-Radhi. The first, was ‘Insaaf’, written by Abu Ja’far bin Qubbah, a great Mutazilite who died before Sharif al-Radhi was born. The second, a manuscript dated 64 years prior to the birth of Sharif al-Radhi, by Abul Hasan ‘Ali bin Muhammad bin Furat, Vizier to the Abbasid caliph al-Muqtadir Billah.

Such evidence serves to remove all doubt on the authenticity of that particular sermon.

Furthermore, the great mutazilite commentator of Nahjul Balaghah, Ibn Abi al-Hahdid, records in Vol. 1 page 205, ‘My teacher al-Wasiti, reported that in year 603 he had had the following conversation with his teacher, Ibn Khashab:

When I asked him if the above sermon had been fabricated he replied, ‘No, by Allah I know that it is from Imam ‘Ali u as clearly as I see you before me now.’

I then said that many people claim that sermon to be Sharif al-Radhi’s. He responded by saying that neither Sharif al-Radhi nor anyone else was capable of producing such an eloquent sermon. He continued by saying, ‘We have studied Sharif al-Radhi’s writings and are familiar with his style. There is no similarity between the two works.’

He also said, ‘By Allah, I found this sermon in books written two hundred years before Sharif al-Radhi was born.’

Allamah Amini, the author of ‘Al Ghadir’, the most authentic and seminal reference on the issue of Immamah - published in 11 volumes, gives 28 references for the above sermon in volume 7 pp 82.

It follows that no other book is able to provide more authentic references than Nahjul Balaghah.

Let us now look at the following arguments regarding the authenticity of Nahjul Balaghah in toto.

The first is that Sharif al-Radhi comments briefly, at the end of certain sermons, to present his own feelings and ideas about them. Sometimes he explains words which he thought necessary to insert in certain places. The content of those comments, in close proximity to the words of those speeches themselves have made it very easy for anyone with knowledge of Arabic literature, to realise that the author of the comments cannot possibly be the author of the speeches.

If we compare the Qur’anic commentary of Sharif al-Radhi, ‘Haqeeq ul-Tanzil’ in which he says that although Imam ‘Ali’s eloquence is superhuman, when a Qur’anic ayah is included in a speech, it stands out as a brilliant jewel among pebbles. We can use the same comparison to illustrate the difference between Imam ‘Ali’s sermons and Sharif al-Radhi’s comments.

The second is that Sharif al-Radhi was not an unknown during his own lifetime. He occupied secular and religious positions of note, in a period during which both religion and literature blossomed. He lived in Baghdad, the capital of the Abbasid Empire which was at that time the world centre of civilisation and culture.

Indeed, Sheikh Mufid, Sharif al-Radhi’s teacher, was alive while Nahjul Balaghah was being compiled and survived long after Sharif al-Radhi had already passed away. Having said this, we also have before us books by other scholars of that period. These do not contain, even in the slightest form, anything similar to Nahjul Balaghah.

The third is that the speeches of Imam ‘Ali u were well known to scholars before Sharif al-Radhi was ever born. For example, the historian Masoudi, who died in 340 AH, that is, 66 years before Sharif al-Radhi’s death, writes in his book Murouj al-Thahab Vol 2 pp. 431, and I quote, ‘More than 480 speeches of ‘Ali ibn Abu Talib u have been memorised by numerous people. These were delivered in an extempore manner and people frequently quoted them as being the words of Imam ‘Ali u.’

It is clear that if 480 speeches were collected, they would make a book bigger than Nahjul Balaghah. This serves to explain Sharif al-Radhi’s sub- title for Nahjul Balaghah ‘A Selection from the Sermons, Letters and Sayings of Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali ibn Abu Talib’.

In his commentary on Nahjul Balaghah, Ibn Abi al-Hahdid includes the statement by the prominent secretary of the last Umayyd Caliph, Abdul Hamid bin Yaya, who died in 132 AH., ‘I have memorised 70 speeches of ‘Ali ibn Abu Talib u and have benefited much from the advantages and blessings they bestowed on me.’

Allamah Hasan al-Nadobie, in his commentary on Al-Bayan wal Tabyeen, wrote, ‘Most probably Ibn al-Muqaafa derived his powerful expressions from Amir al-Muminin ‘Ali ‘Ali ibn Abu Talib u. This is no doubt why he frequently said that, ‘he had drunk his fill from the springs of Imam ‘Ali’s speeches.’

Ibn Nabata, who died in the year 374 AH said, ‘I have memorised a treasury of speeches, the blessing of which multiplies by the number of times it is taken advantage of. I have identified a hundred varieties of different sermon from Imam ‘Ali u.’

Al Kishi, in ‘Al-Rijal’, a compilation of biographies of the transmitters of ahadith, reports that Zayd ibn ‘Ali ibn Husayn l used to regularly listen to the speeches of Imam ‘Ali u. Abu al-Sabah al-Kinani confirmed this, saying, ‘Zayd used to listen to me reciting Imam ‘Ali’s speeches.’

Fourthly, other scholars contemporary to Sharif al-Radhi, also collected the work of Imam ‘Ali u. A few include material in the supplements of their books such as:

- Ibn Maskawaih d.421 AH in his ‘Tajarib al-Umam’ – The Experiences of Nations.

- Hafiz Abu Na’im al-Isphahani d.430 AH in his ‘Hilyat al-Awliyaa’ – The Adornment of Sages

- Shaikh al-Tusi d.460 AH

- Al Amidi in his book ‘Ghorar al-Hikam’

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/authenticity-nahjul-balaghah-sayyid-fadhil-milani

Edited by skyweb1987

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3 hours ago, starlight said:

Do you believe Imam Ali(as) had the right to caliphate after the Prophet passed away?  Yes or No?

There is a big difference between saying he should have became the caliph or he had the more right to caliphate and saying he was divinely appointed by Prophet saww himself in front of all at ghadir. To believe one you have to reject the other.

What you believe now after reading my long post? And what Imam Ali a.s had believed for himself?

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52 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

There is a big difference between saying he should have became the caliph or he had the more right to caliphate and saying he was divinely appointed by Prophet saww himself in front of all at ghadir. To believe one you have to reject the other.

What you believe now after reading my long post? And what Imam Ali a.s had believed for himself?

You don't have any argument to make. The only thing you are good at is evading questions and beating about the bush. Your demands for proof about ghadir from nahjul balagha remind me of the story of Prophet Saleh (as) and the she camel.

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7 minutes ago, starlight said:

You don't have any argument to make. The only thing you are good at is evading questions and beating about the bush. Your demands for proof about ghadir from nahjul balagha remind me of the story of Prophet Saleh (as) and the she camel.

This is all you have to say in response to my post where I showed the side of nahjul balagha which badly refutes false shia beliefs.

Its not only about proofs of ghadir from nahjul balagha but about how Imam Ali a.s understood from this event.

Its very shocking to know that there is no any sermon on ghadir in the entire book of 200+ sermons. And this shows that how much there is difference between beliefs of shias and beliefs of Imam Ali a.s.

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4 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

ypu  copy paste material of sermons from nehjul balagha.

what you do this  when you do not consider the sermons as authentic? I consider it extreme hypocrisy

These sermons have already been / dissected with  sunni frined faahd sani, and refuted for sunni claims

as far as ghadeer is concerned either you have a short memory or your hypocricy is exposed the claims for ghadeer have been refuted check the following link:

By First Responder, Yesterday at 08:44 PM
ألاحزاب 36 بسم الله الرحمن ال

Firstly, this is not like your copy paste stuff. I have just shared the relevant part not the entire sermons. My own comments are also included with many questions. But again you are able to answer any one properly.

Secondly, its not hypocrisy. I clearly said in one of my previous post that many sermons are authentic and many are not. Here I am just showing the reality of the book you claim to follow and love to read. If you consider the overall contents of this book then most part of it do not support twelver shiism in general, in fact refute it badly. My post is just a teaser of it.

Brother instead of answering my post in a academic way you are here behaving like a typical shia who when truth is revealed to him start attacking others by accusing them of being hypocrite or nawasib etc.

Whats there in the above link apart from a quranic verse. And the hadith which brother is referring to proves nothing. Such words are not in the other mutawatur similar ahadith. Moreover, compare that hadith to reality. Read my post on nahjul balagha. And use your brain. 

 

4 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The claims from your sides of ghadeer has provided the evidences that:

Imaam ali is being blamed to keep the ummah devoid of guided leadership the prophet. this is insult of the progeny of the prophet who are kept way from blemishes.

The prophet has been blamed for keeping the ummah devoid ofthe guided leadership after his detah thisis again insultof the prophet saww as the religion ha been made perfect by Allah swt

the is the insult tp Allah that prophet who did not guide THE UMMah towards guidance  and correct religion

 how such insults can bee tolerated by an muslom, i do not accept such false claims and reejct these  baseless and contrary to the verses of quran and clear hadith of the prophet saww 

The authenticity of the sermon no 3, is well established as per shia and sunni scholars.

Job of Imam is to guide people not to misguide by doing taqqiyah or hiding the truth. And yet those who did not accept him will go to hell-fire. what a justice. This is shia logic.

No one is being blamed for devoiding ummah. They are shias who believe like this. i.e after prophet saww all turned to disbelief except seven. Is this not the insult of prophet saww. That after his struggle of 23 years only a few remained on truth after him. How can others be held responsible when the Imam himself did not declared his imamah. What kind of logic is that.

Brother dont play insult and blame game all the time. When you have nothing significant to say then dont even reply and waste my time.

Sermon 3 is well established, because you are saying. So no need to show any proof. See my proofs for the same. This is called a proof.

 

5 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The authenticity of Nahjul Balaghah

In his book, the great scholar of Najaf, Sayyid Abdul Zahra Husayni introduces, from authors who lived and died a long time before Sharif al-Radhi, 114 references for most of the sermons included in Nahjul Balaghah. As an example, he mentions that Sermon 3, which elaborates on the issue of the Prophet Muhammad’s succession, was attributed to Imam ‘Ali u long before Sharif al-Radhi compiled Nahjul Balaghah.

You are nothing but a muqqalid of al-islam.org. Yet shia claim we dont have any sahih book/website.

I think you havnt read my post properly. Let me show you again the high points from my post which is full of unanswered valid questions.

5 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

1. From ilm rijal

Allama Majlisi in Bihar al Anwar collected all chains of sermon 3 from all shia books along with many other reports in the chapter named "Chapter of Ameer al mumineen's PBUH Complaints about those who preceded him from the oppressors who took his right", in total there are 69 narrations in the chapter.

And the researcher of this book shaikh Asif Muhsini in his masharaat Bihar al Anwar vol-2 page 34 said: out of those 69 narrations only no. 17th is correct in chain. And when you check no. 17 its not sermon 3.

 

2. From nahjul balagha

This is sermon 3, which contradicts to many other sermons which are related to many different historical events.

 

5 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Comments: If leadership was sole right of ahlebayt then why Imam Ali is running away from it. How can he say Leave me and seek some one else. and If you leave me then I am the same as you are and I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief. Imam Ali a.s did not said anything about ghadir but clearly said I am not interest in caliphate so leave me alone.

 

Comments: Now these are the words of a brave like Imam Ali a.s. Say the truth on their face, and not behind their back after their death. Now here Imam is swearing on Allah (ma sha Allah) that I had no liking for caliphate. After this will there remain any room to say there is a diivine text on Imamah of Ali i.e ghadir. Yet we see shia belief and all their scholars agree to that rejecting imamah of Ali is kufr and the person who did this will surely go to hell-fire.

 

Comments: Yet we see shias accusing a brave like Imam Ali a.s of doing taqqiyah and remained silent, took no action just for the sake of unity. Unity for which others became disbelievers i.e by rejecting his imamah as per shia theory. This was the unity for which Imam keep quite according to shias.

 

Comments: Here Imam Ali a.s is talking about rights of others and is ready to secure their rights then how could he forgot about his own rights i.e ghadir (biggest right as per shias). The right by rejecting it someone can become kafir in hereafter. Imam futher said: We are happy with the destiny ordained by Allah and have submitted to the command of Allah. But it seems his shias are not happy at all who claim to follow him after prophet saww. And finally he said: my obedience should have precedence over my allegiance while my pledge with him is a burden on my neck. Surely here Imam is talking about his oath of obedience to successor of prophet Hz ABu bakr. Imam Ali remained loyal and obedient to commands Hz ABu bakr.

 

Moreover, in the same nahjul balagha there are mnay sermons of Imam Ali a.s in praise of companions of Prophet saww and he a.s used to pray for them. And in contrast his shias used to curse them day and night. Yet they claim we are the true shias of Ali.

For e.g in sermon 205 Imam Ali prayed for Talha and Zubair along with him in the same dua.

And in sermon 97 Imam Ali a.s praises the companions of prophet saww in general and admonish his own shias (people of kufa in particular) that I am not seeing anyone amongst you like them. Yet we see shias saying no one among the companions realized haq of Imam except seven of them.

 

Comments: This also proves they used to ask forgiveness of Allah swt day and night. They fear for Allah's punishment but not with respect to divine imamah or right of Imam Ali. (another shia theory)

 

Furthermore, in the same nahjul balagha in many sermons Imam Ali a.s has condemned his own shias, who were with him all day long, i.e people of kufa.

Comments: So in nahjul balagha we also have Imam's words cursing his own shias but there are no words from him cursing companions of prophet saww rather there are sermons in their praise. And also no words either about ghadir.

 

Conclusion: There are many other similar sermons in nahjul balagha. About more than half of the book is speaking this same language. While the unique fabricated sermon 3 do not fit in the overall theme and style of the sermons of Imam Ali a.s. And we have sermons even on many minor issue but not a single one about ghadir. This make it clear that ghadir has nothing to do with imamah/caliphate.

 

Nahjul balagha is not only about sermon 3 (which is itself weak in terms of ilm rijal). Consider the book in totality and then see how many sermons support shia beliefs (without twisting their words and using conjectures etc) and how many do not. A small trailer is shown above.

Its upto the readers to decide who is biased, ignorant, using insult/blame card and following mere conjectures/theories/double standards etc and who is using and following proofs without being unjust and dishonest. Everything is pretty clear on this thread.

Read and think properly before posting anything. And dont play insult and blame card all the time.

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Sermon 3 has previously been discussed here:

Quote
 

The khutbah of shiqshiqiyah is mustafiḍ, meaning that it is narrated through enough transmissions where taṣḥīḥ/taḍʿīf of the hadith is pointless as now it is a matter of a historical utterance. This has been agreed upon by the major Shi'i scholars. 

Sāḥib al-Jawāhir (Ḥasan al-Najafī) says the following:

فلا ريب في استفاضتها بحيث تستغني عن ملاحظة السند كما هو واضح 

There is no doubt that the sanad of the hadith is mustafīḍ to the point where even discussing its sanad becomes pointless and this is obvious. 

This is not to mention the prevalent historical manuscripts of the text that can be traced back very early on.

Shaykh Muhsini is not someone who is trained in history, historiography or manuscripts and as such, is not an authoritative source for the kinds of questions you may have. Just because he has ijithad in fiqh and studied ilm al rijal does not make him such. 

:bismillah:

Also, there is another sermon (authentic in isnad as well) where Imam Ali A.S mentions the previous caliphs in a negative manner (since you don't prefer the sermon from Nahjul Balagha):

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن محبوب، عن علي بن رئاب، ويعقوب السراج، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) أن أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) لما بويع بعد مقتل عثمان صعد المنبر فقال: الحمد لله الذي علا فاستعلى ودنا فتعالى وارتفع فوق كل منظر وأشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وحده لا شريك له وأشهد أن محمدا عبده ورسوله خاتم النبيين وحجة الله على العالمين مصدقا للرسل الأولين وكان بالمؤمنين رؤوفا رحيما فصلى الله وملائكته عليه وعلى آله.
أما بعد أيها الناس فإن البغي يقود أصحابه إلى النار وإن أول من بغى على الله جل ذكره عناق بنت آدم وأول قتيل قتله الله عناق وكان مجلسها جريبا [من الأرض] في جريب وكان لها عشرون إصبعا في كل إصبع ظفران مثل المنجلين فسلط الله عز وجل عليها أسدا كالفيل وذئبا كالبعير ونسرا مثل البغل فقتلوها وقد قتل الله الجبابرة على أفضل أحوالهم وآمن ما كانوا وأمات هامان وأهلك فرعون وقد قتل عثمان، ألا وإن بليتكم قد عادت كهيئتها يوم بعث الله نبيه (صلى الله عليه وآله) والذي بعثه بالحق لتبلبلن بلبلة ولتغربلن غربلة ولتساطن سوطة القدر حتى يعود أسفلكم أعلاكم وأعلاكم أسفلكم وليسبقن سابقون كانوا قصروا وليقصرن سابقون كانوا سبقوا والله ما كتمت وشمة ولا كذبت كذبه ولقد نبئت بهذا المقام وهذا اليوم ألا وإن الخطايا خيل شمس حمل عليها أهلها وخلعت لجمها فتقحمت بهم في النار، ألا وإن التقوى مطايا ذلل حمل عليها أهلها وأعطوا .
أزمتها فأوردتهم الجنة وفتحت لهم أبوابها ووجدوا ريحها وطيبها وقيل لهم: ” ادخلوها بسلام آمنين “، ألا وقد سبقني إلى هذا الامر من لم أشركه فيه ومن لم أهبه له ومن ليست له منه نوبة إلا بنبي يبعث، ألا ولا نبي بعد محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله)، أشرف منه على شفا جرف هار فانهار به في نار جهنم. حق وباطل ولكل أهل، فلئن أمر الباطل لقديما فعل ولئن قل الحق فلربما ولعل ولقلما أدبر شئ فأقبل ولئن رد عليكم أمركم أنكم سعداء وما علي إلا الجهد وإني لأخشى أن تكونوا على فترة ملتم عني ميلة كنتم فيها عندي غير محمودي الرأي ولو أشاء لقلت: عفا الله عما سلف، سبق فيه الرجلان وقام الثالث كالغراب همه بطنه، ويله لو قص جناحاه وقطع رأسه كان خيرا له، شغل عن الجنة والنار أمامه، ثلاثة واثنان خمسة ليس لهم سادس: ملك يطير بجناحيه ونبي أخذ الله بضبعيه وساع مجتهد وطالب يرجوا ومقصر في النار، اليمين والشمال مضلة والطريق الوسطى هي الجادة عليها يأتي الكتاب وآثار النبوة، هلك من ادعى وخاب من افترى إن الله أدب هذه الأمة بالسيف والسوط وليس لاحد عند الامام فيهما هوادة فاستتروا في بيوتكم وأصلحوا ذات بينكم والتوبة من ورائكم، من أبدى صفحته للحق هلك .

 

 

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Mahboub, from Ali Bin Ra’ab abd Yaqoub Al-Sarraaj who has said:
Abu Abdullah (as) has narrated that: ‘Amir-ul-Momineen (as), when they had pledged allegiance to him (as) after the killing of Usman, ascended the Pulpit, so he (as) said:

‘Praise be to Allah Who is High and thus all is in His possession and He is Closer than any in the view. And I hereby testify that there is no god but Allah,One with no associates to Him, and I testify that Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã is His servant and His Messenger Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã, the last of the Prophets and a Proof over the worlds, a ratification for the former Prophets and was kind and merciful to the Believers. The Angels sent ‘salam’ greetings of peace upon himsaww and upon hissaww Progeny(as).

Having said that, O you people! The transgression (indecency) places its owner into the Fire, and the first one to transgression (commit indecency) against Allah Majestic is His Remembrance was Onaq the daughter of Adam (as), and the first one who was killed, whom Allah Killed was Onaq. And the area that she occupied when seated upon the ground measured one square acre (Jarib) of the land, and she had twenty fingers and on each of her fingers were two nails like two sickles. So Allah Mighty and Majestic Made her to be overcome by a lion which was like an elephant (in size), and a wolf which was like a camel (in size), and an eagle like a mule (in size). So they killed her.

And Allah had Killed the tyrants in their best conditions, and gave Safety to those who used to be (oppressed). And He Made Hannaan to die, and destroyed the Pharaoh, and He has Killed Usman. Indeed! Your misfortunes have returned to what they were on the day Allah Sent His Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã. By the One Who Sent him by the truth, you will be confused with a (severe) confusion and be sifted with a (severe) sifting, and stirred and turned like the contents of a frying pan until your underside becomes your upper side and your upper side becomes your underside. The ones who used to be with the shortcomings will become the foremost ones, and those who used to be the foremost ones would become the people with shortcomings.

By Allah! I have neither concealed, nor blocked, nor lied a lie, and I have been foretold about this place and this day. Indeed! And the sins are like uncontrollable horses which carry its riders, with its harnesses removed, plunging into the Fire. Indeed! And the piety is like a humble ride which takes its rider, along with its rein, to the Paradise, and its Doors will be opened up for them, and they will find its aroma and goodness. And it will be said to them: ‘Enter it in peace and security’.

Indeed! The ones who had no association with it has preceded me to this command (Caliphate), and the ones to whom it had not been Granted to, and the ones for whom there was no chance from it except if they were to be Prophets who had been Sent. And indeed! There is no Prophet as to be after Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã who is more noble than him over the intercession on the brink of the Fire. So they will fall with by it (their lies) in the Fire of Hell.

Truth as well as falsehood, for each of them are its people. The matter of falsehood is a very old one and has been active. And if the truth is less (in practice) it is because of ‘if’ and ‘maybe’. And it is rare that if a thing gone away comes back, and if your command (Caliphate) returns to you, you would be pleased, and it is not on me except for the striving, and I am afraid that you all will end up being on the nature of your nation (away) from me, the nation that you were in beforehand and would not have a praiseworthy opinion in my sight, and if I so desire to I would say: ‘May Allah Forgive what was in the past’.
Two men preceded me with regards to it (Caliphate), and the third one stood up like the Raven. His main concern was his stomach. Woe be unto him! Had his wings been clipped and his head cut-off, it would have been better for him. He was distracted from the Paradise and the Hell was in front of him. Three and two make five, there is no sixth of them – An Angel who files by his wings, and a Prophet whom Allah has Grabbed by his shoulders (Given him Divine Status), and a diligent seeker (momin), and a hopeful student, and a reducer(Muqassir) are in the Fire.

The right and the left are misleading, whereas the middle path is the street on which you will come across the Book and the effects of the Prophet-hood. Destroyed is the one who makes a claim, and disillusioned is the one who fabricates that Allah Disciplined this community by the sword and the whip, and there is no leniency for either of them with the Imam. So, hide in your homes and mend your relationships in between yourselves and the repentance is behind you all. The one who turned his cheek (opposed the Imam) to the truth is destroyed.

 

Source:Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 8,Pg 67,H 23

 

Grading:

  1. Majlisi:”Hasan” (Mirat ul Uqool 25/151)
  2. Sheikh Asif Muhsini:”Mo’tabar Sanad” (Masharat Behar al-Anwar 2/34)
  3. Hadi Najafi:”Saheeh Sanad” (Mawsua’t al-Hadith Ahlalbayt 2/59)

 http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2045:concept-of-hazrat-ali-a-s-regarding-caliphate-of-sheikhain&catid=155&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

Wsalam

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On 6/28/2017 at 12:55 PM, Ya Allah Madad said:

I think you havnt read my post properly. Let me show you again the high points from my post which is full of unanswered valid questions.

Nahjul balagha is not only about sermon 3 (which is itself weak in terms of ilm rijal). Consider the book in totality and then see how many sermons support shia beliefs (without twisting their words and using conjectures etc) and how many do not. A small trailer is shown above.

The nice copy  paste made from the posts of faahd sani  i have already replied in that thread with valid evidences refuting the sunni arguments on sermon 3. I post it again:

Salam, if you consider that this sermon is a fabrication then  we bring the following facts from the history proving that it is the original production of Imam Ali AS:

Among these scholars some are those before as-Sayyid ar-Radi's period, some are his contemporaries and some are those who came after him but they all related it through their own chain of authority.

1) Ibn Abi'l-Hadid al-Mu`tazili writes that his master Abu'l-Khayr Musaddiq ibn Shabib al-Wasiti (d. 605 A.H.) stated that he heard this sermon from ash-Shaykh Abu Muhammad `Abdullah ibn Ahmad al-Baghdadi (d. 567 A.H.) known as Ibn al-Khashshab and when he reached where Ibn `Abbas expressed sorrow for this sermon having remained incomplete Ibn al-Khashshab said to him that if he had heard the expression of sorrow from Ibn `Abbas he would have certainly asked him if there had remained with his cousin any further unsatisfied desire because excepting the Prophet he had already spared neither the predecessors nor followers and had uttered all that he wished to utter. Why should therefore be any sorrow that he could not say what he wished?

Musaddiq says that Ibn al-Khashshab was a man of jolly heart and decent taste. I inquired from him whether he also regarded the sermon to be a fabrication when he replied "By Allah, I believe it to be Amir al-mu'minin's word as I believe you to be Musaddiq ibn Shabib." I said that some people regard it to be as-Sayyid ar-Radi's production when he replied: "How can ar-Radi have such guts or such style of writing. I have seen as-Sayyid ar-Radi's writings and know his style of composition. Nowhere does his writing match with this one and I have already seen it in books written two hundred years before the birth of as-Sayyid ar-Radi, and I have seen it in familiar writings about which I know by which scholars or men of letters they were compiled. At that time not only ar-Radi but even his father Abu Ahmad an-Naqib has not been born."

2) Thereafter Ibn Abi'l-Hadid writes that he saw this sermon in the compilations of his master Abu'l-Qasim (`Abdullah ibn Ahmad) al-Balkhi (d. 317 A.H.). He was the Imam of the Mu'tazilites in the reign of al-Muqtadir Billah while al-Muqtadir's period was far earlier than the birth of as-Sayyid ar-Radi.

3) He further writes that he saw this sermon in Abu Ja`far (Muhammad ibn `Abd ar-Rahman), Ibn Qibah's book al-Insaf. He was the pupil of Abu'l-Qasim al-Balkhi and a theologian of Imamiyyah (Shi`ite) sect. (Sharh of Ibn Abi'l-Hadid, vol.1, pp.205-206)

4) Ibn Maytham al-Bahrani (d. 679 A.H.) writes in his commentary that he had seen one such copy of this sermon which bore writing of al-Muqtadir Billah's minister Abu'l-Hasan `Ali ibn Muhammad ibn al-Furat (d. 312 A.H.). (Sharh al-balaghah, vol.1., pp.252-253)

5) al-`Allamah Muhammad Baqir al-Majlisi has related the following chain of authority about this Sermon from ash-Shaykh Qutbu'd-Din ar-Rawandi's compilation Minhaj al-bara`ah fi Sharh Nahjul Balaghah: Ash-Shaykh Abu Nasr al-Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Ibrahim informed me from al-Hajib Abu'l-Wafa' Muhammad ibn Badi`, al-Husayn ibn Ahmad ibn Badi` and al-Husayn ibn Ahmad ibn `Abd ar-Rahman and they from al-Hafiz Abu Bakr (Ahmad ibn Musa) ibn Marduwayh al-Isbahani (d. 416 A.H.) and he from al-Hafiz Abu'l-Qasim Sulayman ibn Ahmad at-Tabarani (d. 360 A.H.) and he from Ahmad ibn `Ali al-Abbar and he from Is'haq ibn Sa`id Abu Salamah ad-Dimashqi and he from Khulayd ibn Da`laj and he from `Ata' ibn Abi Rabah and he from Ibn `Abbas. (Bihar al-anwar, 1st ed. vol.8, pp.160-161)

6) In the context al-`Allamah al-Majlisi has written that this sermon is also contained in the compilations of Abu `Ali (Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab) al-Jubba 'i (d. 303 A.H.) .7) In connection with this very authenticity al-`Allamah al-Majlisi writes: Al-Qadi `Abd al-Jabbar ibn Ahmad al-Asad'abadi (d. 415A.H.) who was a strict Mu`tazilite explains some expressions of this sermon in his book al-Mughni and tries to prove that it does not strike against any preceding caliph but does not deny it to be Amir al-mu'minin's composition. (ibid., p.161)

8) Abu Ja`far Muhammad ibn `Ali, Ibn Babawayh (d. 381 A.H.) writes: Muhammad ibn Ibrahim ibn Is'haq at-Talaqani told us that `Abd al-`Aziz ibn Yahya al-Jaludi (d. 332 A.H.) told him that Abu `Abdillah Ahmad ibn `Ammar ibn Khalid told him that Yahya ibn `Abd al-Hamid al- Himmani (d. 228 A.H.) told him that `Isa ibn Rashid related this sermon from `Ali ibn Hudhayfah and he from `Ikrimah and he from Ibn `Abbas. (`Ilal ash-shara'i`,vol.1, chap. 122, p.144; Ma`ani al-akhbar, chap.22, pp.360-361)
9) Then Ibn Babawayh records the following chain of authorities :- Muhammad ibn `Ali Majilawayh related this sermon to us and he took it from his uncle Muhammad ibn Abi'l-Qasim and he from Ahmad ibn Abi `Abdillah (Muhammad ibn Khalid) al-Barqi and he from his father and he from (Muhammad) Ibn Abi `Umayr and he from Aban ibn `Uthman and he from Aban ibn Taghlib and he from `Ikrimah and he from Ibn `Abbas. (`Ilal ash-shara'i`, vol.1, chap.122, p.l46; Ma`ani al-akhbar, chap.22, p.361)
10) Abu Ahmad al-Hasan ibn `Abdillah ibn Sa`id al-`Askari (d.382 A.H.) who counts among great scholars of the Sunnis has written commentary and explanation of this sermon that has been recorded by Ibn Babawayh in `Ilal ash-shara'i` and Ma`ani al-akhbar.
11) as-Sayyid Ni`matullah al-Jaza'iri writes: The author of Kitab al-gharat Abu Is'haq, Ibrahim ibn Muhammad ath-Thaqafi al-Kufi (d. 283 A.H.) has related this sermon through his own chain of authorities. The date of completion of writing this book is Tuesday the 13th Shawwal 255 A.H. and in the same year, Murtada al-Musawi was born. He was older in age than his brother as-Sayyid ar-Radi. (Anwar an-Nu`maniyyah, p.37)
12) as-Sayyid Radi ad-Din Abu'l-Qasim `Ali ibn Musa, Ibn Tawus al-Husayni al-Hulli (d. 664 A.H.) has related this sermon from Kitab al-gharat with the following chain of authorities:- This sermon was related to us by Muhammad ibn Yusuf who related it from al-Hasan ibn `Ali ibn `Abd al-Karim az-Za`farani and he from Muhammad ibn Zakariyyah al-Ghallabi and he from Ya`qub ibn Ja`far ibn Sulayman and he from his father and he from his grand-father and he from Ibn `Abbas. (Translation of at-Tara'if, p.202)
13) Shaykh at-Ta'ifah, Muhammad ibn al- Hasan at-Tusi (d. 460 A.H.) writes: (Abu'l-Fath Hilal ibn Muhammad ibn Ja`far) al-Haffar related this sermon to us. He related it from Abu'l-Qasim (Isma`il ibn `Ali ibn `Ali) ad-Di`bili and he from his father and he from his brother Di`bil (ibn `Ali al-Kuza`i) and he from Muhammad ibn Salamah ash-Shami and he from Zurarah ibn A`yan and he from Abu Ja`far Muhammad ibn `Ali and he from Ibn `Abbas. (al-Amali, p.237)
14) ash-Shaykh al-Mufid (Muhammad ibn Muhammad ibn an-Nu`man, d. 413 A.H.) who was the teacher of as-Sayyid ar-Radi writes about the chain of authorities of this sermon: A number of relaters of traditions have related this sermon from Ibn `Abbas through numerous chains. (al-Irshad, p.135)
15) `Alam al-Huda (emblem of guidance) as-Sayyid al-Murtada who was the elder brother of as-Sayyid ar-Radi has recorded it on pp. 203,204 of his book ash-Shafi.
16) Abu Mansur at-Tabarsi writes: A number of relaters have given an account of this sermon from Ibn `Abbas through various chains. Ibn `Abbas said that he was in the audience of Amir al-mu'minin at ar-Rahbah (a place in Kufah) when conversation turned to Caliphate and those who had preceded him as Caliphs, when Amir al-mu'minin breathed a sigh and delivered this sermon. (al-Ihtijaj, p. 101)
17) Abu'l-Muzaffar Yusuf ibn `Abdillah and Sibt ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanafi (d. 654 A.H.) writes: Our ash-Shaykh Abu'l-Qasim an-Nafis al-Anbari related this sermon to us through his chain of authorities that ends with Ibn `Abbas, who said that after allegiance had been paid to Amir al-mu'minin as Caliph he was sitting on the pulpit when a man from the audience enquired why he had remained quiet till then whereupon Amir al-mu'minin delivered this sermon extempore. (Tadhkarat khawass al-ummah, p.73)
18) al-Qadi Ahmad ibn Muhammad, ash-Shihab al-Khafaji (d. 1069 A.H.) writes with regard to its authenticity: It is stated in the utterances of Amir al-mu'minin `Ali (Allah may be pleased with him) that "It is strange during life time he (Abu Bakr) wanted to give up the Caliphate but he strengthened its foundation for the other one after his death." (Sharh durrat al-ghawwas, p.17)
19) ash-Shaykh `Ala ad-Dawlah as-Simnani writes: Amir al-mu'minin Sayyid al-`Arifin `Ali (p.b.u.h.) has stated in one of his brilliant Sermons "this is the Shiqshiqah that burst forth." (al-`Urwah li ahl al-khalwah wa'l-jalwah, p3, manuscript in Nasiriah Library, Lucknow, India)
20) Abu'l-Fadl Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-Maydani (d. 518 A.H.) has written in connection with the word Shiqshiqah: One sermon of Amir al-mu'minin `Ali is known as Khutbah ash-Shiqshiqiyyah (the sermon of the Camel's Foam). (Majma` al-amthal, vol.1, p.369)
21) In fifteen places in an-Nihayah while explaining the words of this sermon Abu's-Sa`adat Mubarak ibn Muhammad, Ibn al-Athir al-Jazari (d. 606 A.H.) has acknowledged it to be Amir al-mu'minin's utterance.
22) Shaykh Muhammad Tahir Patni while explaining the same words in Majma` bihar al-anwar testifies this sermon to be Amir al-mu'minin's by saying, "`Ali says so."
23) Abu'l-Fadl ibn Manzur (d. 711 A.H.) has acknowledged it as Amir al-mu'minin's utterance in Lisan al-`Arab, vol.12, p.54 by saying, "In the sayings of `Ali in his sermon 'It is the camel's foam that burst forth then subsided.'"
24) Majdu'd-Din al-Firuz'abadi (d. 816/817 A.H.) has recorded under the word "Shiqshiqah" in his lexicon (al-Qamus, vol.3, p.251): Khutbah ash-Shiqshiqiyyah is by `Ali so named because when Ibn `Abbas asked him to resume it where he had left it, he said "O' Ibn `Abbas! it was the foam of a camel that burst forth then subsided."
25) The compiler of Muntaha al-adab writes: Khutbah ash-Shiqshiqiyyah of `Ali is attributed to `Ali (Allah may honour his face).
26) ash-Shaykh Muhammad `Abduh, Mufti of Egypt, recognising it as Amir al-mu'minin's utterance, has written its explanations.
27) Muhammad Muhyi'd-Din `Abd al-Hamid, Professor in the Faculty of Arabic Language, al-Azhar University has written annotations on Nahjul Balaghah adding a foreword in the beginning wherein he recognises all such sermons which contain disparaging remarks to be the utterances of Amir al-mu'minin.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-abu-quhafah

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