Great cities area - Tarakhus

[realizm]

I tried to understand for years but still have not figured out the actual ruling.

What is the rule for a person living in a metropolitan area, say Paris or London. Do his/her commuting to remote suburbs (more than 21 km) count as travelling even though he/she is still considered to be in the great London/Paris, thus not an out of towner ?

Or does tarakhus (boundaries) begin at the end of the metropolitan area?

[Hassan-]

It's all about the common view ('urf). If you live in let's say the city of London, does the common view consider the cities/towns that surround the city of London as part of London thus making it a one massive city? Or does the common view consider the city of London as a city on its own, and the cities surrounding London are not part of London? 

You follow the 'urf and that's how you determine when to begin the tarakhus limit. 

[Hassan-]

To add one more thing, the question you asked is one of the most debated subjects here in Toronto. The 'ulama here in Toronto tried to figure out the proper rulings for such case and some 'ulama even gave different rulings than others, but most of them agreed that it was the 'urf which determines everything. 

[Muhajir]

2 hours ago, realizm said:

I tried to understand for years but still have not figured out the actual ruling.

What is the rule for a person living in a metropolitan area, say Paris or London. Do his/her commuting to remote suburbs (more than 21 km) count as travelling even though he/she is still considered to be in the great London/Paris, thus not an out of towner ?

Or does tarakhus (boundaries) begin at the end of the metropolitan area?

It's based on the km [or miles] in actuality but the issue is that you would be considered a traveler if you don't go to that place more than once every 10 days. So if you go to that area often than no but if it's a rare occasion than you would be a traveler there.

[realizm]

4 hours ago, Hassan- said:

To add one more thing, the question you asked is one of the most debated subjects here in Toronto. The 'ulama here in Toronto tried to figure out the proper rulings for such case and some 'ulama even gave different rulings than others, but most of them agreed that it was the 'urf which determines everything. 

Yes I guess the topic is even more relevant during ramadan, hence me asking it by the way

Ok well to be honest 'urf is kind of hard to appreciate since it could be 'urf from your hometown or your destination... I guess it is more a personal feeling...

[Hassan-]

1 hour ago, realizm said:

Ok well to be honest 'urf is kind of hard to appreciate since it could be 'urf from your hometown or your destination... I guess it is more a personal feeling...

I didn't understand what you meant there. 

You have to look at what the average person considers the size of his city to be his city. If the majority of the people in your city say "London is this big, and the other cities/towns/regions surrounding London are not part of London" than you who also lives in London must go by what the people say (common view). 

This is what Imam al-Khamenei says: 

The determination of a city’s end depends on the common view. Thus, if the factories and scattered townships are not considered as part of the city, according to the common view, the distance should be calculated from the last houses of the city.

[realizm]

18 hours ago, Hassan- said:

I didn't understand what you meant there. 

You have to look at what the average person considers the size of his city to be his city. If the majority of the people in your city say "London is this big, and the other cities/towns/regions surrounding London are not part of London" than you who also lives in London must go by what the people say (common view). 

This is what Imam al-Khamenei says: 

The determination of a city’s end depends on the common view. Thus, if the factories and scattered townships are not considered as part of the city, according to the common view, the distance should be calculated from the last houses of the city.

Ok I Google Mapped Toronto to give you an example.

Let's say you live in Toronto, and for an occasion have to go to Halton. Toronto people may consider people of Halton  as "out of towners", while people of Halton may say "of course we are from Toronto".

A Haltoner who moves to settle in Toronto will keep thinking his relatives in Halton as Torontoers, an immigrant will not make the difference, and so on.

So the common view may differ from a town to another, and unless you know what every people think, you may not be able to know the `urf.

I know that here in Paris, there is a mental gap between Paris (the actual city) and any suburb whatsoever. Some suburban districts may be 50km wide, and an inhabitant from a district might live closer to another district, than to a town that belongs to his own district.

So that makes it quite impossible to sense the `urf.

Hence me saying there is part of a personal factor.

Hope you got my point, brother.

[Hassan-]

8 hours ago, realizm said:

Ok I Google Mapped Toronto to give you an example.

Let's say you live in Toronto, and for an occasion have to go to Halton. Toronto people may consider people of Halton  as "out of towners", while people of Halton may say "of course we are from Toronto".

A Haltoner who moves to settle in Toronto will keep thinking his relatives in Halton as Torontoers, an immigrant will not make the difference, and so on.

So the common view may differ from a town to another, and unless you know what every people think, you may not be able to know the `urf.

I know that here in Paris, there is a mental gap between Paris (the actual city) and any suburb whatsoever. Some suburban districts may be 50km wide, and an inhabitant from a district might live closer to another district, than to a town that belongs to his own district.

So that makes it quite impossible to sense the `urf.

Hence me saying there is part of a personal factor.

Hope you got my point, brother.

 

I get your point brother, I know what your trying to say. Here in Toronto, most people come to an understanding of which area is part of Toronto and which area is not. People of Halton will not say they live in Toronto, nor will the people of other surrounding areas consider themselves living in Toronto. Because of that, it becomes quite easy to determine to 'urf. Now for your city, if the 'urf of what is considered your city is debated amongst the people that live there, and it's not quite clear what the 'urf is, than this changes things. I believe in that case, it will come to your personal feelings just like what you said. Better to ask a 'alam on this issue than.

[Hameedeh]

On 6/10/2017 at 1:56 PM, realizm said:

Or does tarakhus (boundaries) begin at the end of the metropolitan area?

Doesn't the Islamic law mention certain farsakh (km or miles you travel) which becomes the point where you are considered a traveler (for purposes of praying and fasting)?

EDIT:  8 Farsakh or 28 miles

Edited June 11, 2017 by Hameedeh
To add the EDIT.

[realizm]

19 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

Doesn't the Islamic law mention certain farsakh (km or miles you travel) which becomes the point where you are considered a traveler (for purposes of praying and fasting)?

EDIT:  8 Farsakh or 28 miles

Yes, however those 8 farsakh begin at the end of the city or area you live in.

It is this limit I find hard to determine.

[Hameedeh]

3 minutes ago, realizm said:

Yes, however those 8 farsakh begin at the end of the city or area you live in.

It is this limit I find hard to determine.

I think some people are traveling 8 farsakhs from their home, not from the edge of the city. This is a predicament. 

[realizm]

2 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

I think some people are traveling 8 farsakhs from their home, not from the edge of the city. This is a predicament. 

That is not correct from my understanding.