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Tryingtolearn

Christianity vs Islam

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1 hour ago, IbnSina said:

For sure only God knows who will enter heaven.

According to the islamic faith there is such a thing as eternal hell, that is were satan will be sent to for example. Also, denying the existence of the Almighty, is not a small thing. It is the peak of ungratefulness, to have been created from fluid into a full walking and talking and thinking human being and then deny his creator, it is really shameful. Also some people even knowingly tries to work against God and people who do good, they believe satan should be worshiped.

Anyways, that put to side: What does the school of protestants in of itself say regarding that which I mentioned, is it possible to go to heaven regardless of the amounts of sins done if one loves Jesus? If one believes he died for ones sins, does that not excuse oneself from any sin committed?

Is there a possibility that Hitler will end up in Heaven? I find it hard to believe, but if he sincerely regretted all his sins...maybe. But he comitted suicide, which is also believed to be a great sin so he had only a second to regret his last sin. Maybe Stalin is a better example, he died from a heart attac. Personally I find it hard to believe that such gangsters love Jesus, but only God knows, and I am happy that I shall not judge.

Maybe there is a hell, but what is the point of torturing beings for eternity? Better not to wake them up. Protestants do not believe in purgatory. Now this fire is not eternal pain, however I am convinced God has a better solution. I do not think torture goes well together with Christianity

I also believe God has a solution for all those that never heard the Gospel. Scandinavian inhabitants did not until 1.000 years ago, after having been heathen since the end of the iceage 12.000 years ago. 

 

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6 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Sorry to hear about the funeral, my condolences.

Thank you. She was a wonderful person and I am going to miss her.   Most of the town showed up to the church to say goodbye. Old enemities were forgotten over her coffin and friendships renewed in tears. She would have liked that. She was a peacemaker.

6 hours ago, IbnSina said:

 

Hmm, i see, but in most countries in the world, a 14 year old women is still considered a child, so she would still be a "child bride" so why would christians get freaked out by a child bride if their own religious laws allows it?

Does a women need her fathers permission to get married in your school of thought?

 

 

That is a minimum age. The bishops of a region can bring the local churches into line with the customary laws of the land if they are over that age. You won't find priests or bishops agreeing to the marriage of 14 year old females in the US. 18 is the minimum age in most places in the US. And below that would require likely parental permission, as per state rules. An adult woman in modern times does not need her father's permission to marry. 

 

6 hours ago, IbnSina said:

 

Purified how? Thru punishment?

 

Some would define it as some sort of punishment. Some scholars prefer to define it more as  instruction.  Of course, we hope most of our relatives and friends go straight to heaven. There was zero talk of Purgatory at the funeral yesterday or almost any Catholic funeral I have attended.

6 hours ago, IbnSina said:

 

Hmm, when you say that Cannon laws are based on scripture, does that mean that they are derived from the Bible?

The term church tradition is still confusing to me, what is it exactly based of? Like if you would ask the leader of the church, would they be able to provide concrete sources for these traditions?

 

 

Yes...they are derived from the Bible as Catholics interpret it.

Yes, the Church scholars provide sources.

That's why our books are so heavy and fat...and what all those annotations are for. Lol. They could give you a bad back carrying them.

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Edited by LeftCoastMom

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34 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

That is a minimum age. The bishops of a region can bring the local churches into line with the customary laws of the land if they are over that age. You won't find priests or bishops agreeing to the marriage of 14 year old females in the US. 18 is the minimum age in most places in the US. And below that would require likely parental permission, as per state rules. An adult woman in modern times does not need her father's permission to marry. 

The age of 14 is the minimum age according to the Bible? Could you tell me where in the bible it says that the minimum age is 14? From what I could google, it seems that most quotes from christian scripture says that one can marry upon entering puberty. What is your opinion on Ezekiel 16:7-8?

What authority does the bishops have to change the minimum age if they agree that the age 14 is given in the Bible, thus the law of God?

A bishop would put the law of the government before the law of God? Then he puts the law of men above the law of God or he is a follower of his personal opinion but not a follower of the words of God, or at least what he considers to be the words of God.

If one were to take the laws of the Bible completely seriously and strictly, like it should, since its the words of the creator of the universe according to its followers, then technically a 14 year old women can marry whoever she wishes without her parents approval if I understood it correctly? 

 

49 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Some would define it as some sort of punishment. Some scholars prefer to define it more as  instruction.  Of course, we hope most of our relatives and friends go straight to heaven. There was zero talk of Purgatory at the funeral yesterday or almost any Catholic funeral I have attended.

Hmm, if a human being would be the worst human on earth and commit every sin possible and be a clear hypocrite, yet still love Jesus, but doesnt want to bother with following his teachings, will such a man still enter heaven after some "instruction" in purgatory?

What I am trying to ask is, exactly how bad of a christian do you have to be in order to go to hell? 

Or formulated in another way: Is the condition for entering heaven in Christianity that one should love Jesus?

 

53 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Yes...they are derived from the Bible as Catholics interpret it.

Yes, the Church scholars provide sources.

So ALL traditions are derived from the Bible if I have understood you correct.

Can you think of any traditions, or what one defines as tradition, that are no longer practiced within Christianity or any tradition, or what one defines as tradition, that was not done before but is done nowadays?

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

It was Paul's directive that a woman's hair should be covered in church. The reason was that a woman's hair was considered her glory, therefore a distraction in the church. Paul also mentioned that women should be silent because the chatter was distracting.

Are you all in agreeance that it was Paul that decided that women should cover her hair in the church? If so, what did he base it on and should one consider following his saying a tradition or an innovation or the word of God forwarded by Paul?

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, andres said:

Is there a possibility that Hitler will end up in Heaven? I find it hard to believe, but if he sincerely regretted all his sins...maybe. But he comitted suicide, which is also believed to be a great sin so he had only a second to regret his last sin. Maybe Stalin is a better example, he died from a heart attac. Personally I find it hard to believe that such gangsters love Jesus, but only God knows, and I am happy that I shall not judge.

Maybe there is a hell, but what is the point of torturing beings for eternity? Better not to wake them up. Protestants do not believe in purgatory. Now this fire is not eternal pain, however I am convinced God has a better solution. I do not think torture goes well together with Christianity

I also believe God has a solution for all those that never heard the Gospel. Scandinavian inhabitants did not until 1.000 years ago, after having been heathen since the end of the iceage 12.000 years ago. 

Hmm, what does the Bible say of Pharaoh? In the Quran, it speaks of the moment when he know he was going to drown and that he confessed to the God of Moses but that his confession was too late and his punishment would not be decreased. As such, even when he had seconds of regret, it did not matter because at that point the judgement was already made and he was out of options.

If you ask me, i understand that imaginating someone suffering forever is hard but I do believe that it is because of our lack of understanding regarding the awesomeness of God. Once your true awareness of God and who He is increases, so would you understanding of how severe such a thing as denying him would be and then I do not think eternal suffering is far fetched idea anymore.

In Islam, we speak of many prophets that came before Prophet Muhammad(S), we believe that many religions before islam who might have later became a polytheistic religion was originally one of the religions of God who men then changed. Who knows, maybe even the religion of the old vikings were originally a monotheistic religion? One thing is certain though, that all people of older days had some kind of religion in their societies throughout the history of mankind.

I understand your personal opinion diverts from the traditional teaching of protestants but your personal opinion put to the side, what does the school of protestants say regarding my question:
Is it possible to go to heaven regardless of the amounts of sins done if one loves Jesus? If one believes he died for ones sins, does that not excuse oneself from any sin committed?

 

 

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31 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Are you all in agreeance that it was Paul that decided that women should cover her hair in the church? If so, what did he base it on and should one consider following his saying a tradition or an innovation or the word of God forwarded by Paul?

We have to agree that Paul suggested it, the reasons were to help the church. There is also more on modesty. Paul had started churches. They were Gentiles and had little to no laws prior, so Pauls letters of instruction were to bring them to a righteous life. Pretty much all the pertinent laws were covered in his letters without dragging them through Jewish tradition.

Not sure I understand the emphasis on getting kids married off at 14. In most parts of the west, the legal age is 18. Jesus tells us to obey Gods laws and mans laws to the best of our ability. Mans laws say anyone touching a girl under legal age is guilty of statutory rape. Of course marriages are not arranged so the courts decided a girl should be mature enough to have part in the decision making. Asking permission for a daughters hand was a tradition of respect. Respect has been replaced with narcissism and entitlement, both taught by modern society.

In this secular society it's all gone to pot. It almost seems more like a girl cannot fornicate with anyone over 18 until she is 18. It was never the intent of the law, but is what it comes down to in modern society.

Jesus said to be in the world but not part of it. This includes keeping your morals and ambitions within the reigns of a law the world detests. It's becoming more of a challenge as time goes on. I am in the country, surrounded by Mennonites so life is good here, 

One of the toughest commandments is the one Jesus gave us. He said; "A new commandment I give unto you that you love one another as I have loved you, and love your neighbour as thyself." If properly understood and practiced, there's no room for sins. The best description of love is found in the thirteenth chapter of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. 

There are Gods laws and there are man made god laws. God gave the "Jews" 10 commandments, Maimonides gave them 613 more at the turn of the 13th century. Religions have heaped believers with rules. Some because the people were going astray, others to show the clergy who was willing to jump the hoops. 

There is no, "give exactly this to the poor" kind of rule. The obligation is there, but it doesn't mean 10% to a church, (even though tithe envelopes are given to church members liberally.)

Giving time can be worth more than money.  I volunteered for years when I had no money. I became known as, "The most religious person I know" to kids and adults who called on me for advise and prayer for years after. I was also mocked by others for the same reason.

The one kid that haunts me is the one that came to me in need of help but I didn't see the depth of his angst. He committed suicide three weeks later.

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3 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Hmm, what does the Bible say of Pharaoh? In the Quran, it speaks of the moment when he know he was going to drown and that he confessed to the God of Moses but that his confession was too late and his punishment would not be decreased. As such, even when he had seconds of regret, it did not matter because at that point the judgement was already made and he was out of options.

If you ask me, i understand that imaginating someone suffering forever is hard but I do believe that it is because of our lack of understanding regarding the awesomeness of God. Once your true awareness of God and who He is increases, so would you understanding of how severe such a thing as denying him would be and then I do not think eternal suffering is far fetched idea anymore.

In Islam, we speak of many prophets that came before Prophet Muhammad(S), we believe that many religions before islam who might have later became a polytheistic religion was originally one of the religions of God who men then changed. Who knows, maybe even the religion of the old vikings were originally a monotheistic religion? One thing is certain though, that all people of older days had some kind of religion in their societies throughout the history of mankind.

I understand your personal opinion diverts from the traditional teaching of protestants but your personal opinion put to the side, what does the school of protestants say regarding my question:
Is it possible to go to heaven regardless of the amounts of sins done if one loves Jesus? If one believes he died for ones sins, does that not excuse oneself from any sin committed?

Traditional teaching is that if you honestly repent your sins, God will forgive. Also Hitler and Stalin. I may not agree with all official teaching if my church, but I agree with this. If you believe that Jesus died for your sins but do not repent your sins, you cannot recieve forgiveness.

The stoneage inhabitants in Scandinavia were not ancestors of the Vikings. We do not know much of their ethnicity or their eligion, but from the petrograps they made, they probably worshipped the Sun and Moon. Our Viking ancestors were indoeuropeans. As we still are. Originating from Kaukasus 4.000 years ago, they developed into Persians, Greek, Romans, Germans, Swedes and others. Our languages and religion have developed from a single culture, into different but related ones over time. Most indoeuropeans now have converted to Christianity and Islam. Scandinavians being about the latest, abanding the pagan Gods around the year 1.000AD. 

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4 hours ago, IbnSina said:

1. The age of 14 is the minimum age according to the Bible? Could you tell me where in the bible it says that the minimum age is 14? From what I could google, it seems that most quotes from christian scripture says that one can marry upon entering puberty. What is your opinion on Ezekiel 16:7-8?

2. What authority does the bishops have to change the minimum age if they agree that the age 14 is given in the Bible, thus the law of God?

3. A bishop would put the law of the government before the law of God? Then he puts the law of men above the law of God or he is a follower of his personal opinion but not a follower of the words of God, or at least what he considers to be the words of God.

4. If one were to take the laws of the Bible completely seriously and strictly, like it should, since its the words of the creator of the universe according to its followers, then technically a 14 year old women can marry whoever she wishes without her parents approval if I understood it correctly? 

 

5. if a human being would be the worst human on earth and commit every sin possible and be a clear hypocrite, yet still love Jesus, but doesnt want to bother with following his teachings, will such a man still enter heaven after some "instruction" in purgatory?

6. What I am trying to ask is, exactly how bad of a christian do you have to be in order to go to hell? 

Or formulated in another way: Is the condition for entering heaven in Christianity that one should love Jesus?

 

7. So ALL traditions are derived from the Bible if I have understood you correct.

Can you think of any traditions, or what one defines as tradition, that are no longer practiced within Christianity or any tradition, or what one defines as tradition, that was not done before but is done nowadays?

 The Holy See ( representing the collective wisdom of the Church) allows the bishops to follow the law of the land.  They do not do it by personal fiat. This has been done since ancient times. The Bible does not say " women and men must be married by such-and-such an age". So there is flexibility.  In ancient times it was Jewish custom for some, then Roman law in regards to marriage. Here and now  it is US law. Does Islam teach you to break the law of the land you are in? The Church isn't here to disrupt society unnecessarily. More maturity is considered better in Catholic marriages. A 14 year old is not considered an adult in most places in the US, so consent does not apply to her. She is legally incapable of giving it here. Depending upon the state, at an older age but still under 18,she would need parental permission. The Church rarely clashes with the state on this particular issue since,again, both entities feel maturity is better for marriage. I understand the Exekiel as being an allegory of God And his people. Marriage symbolism is heavily used by Jews and Christians.

 

If if a person was the " worst on earth", he or she clearly does not love or know Jesus. So he or she is likely going to hell. Only God knows. But Catholics do not believe in faith without action and evidence. It's an oxymoron.

 

I can't answer your last question because it is too broad. I'm not familiar with ALL Christian traditions.

 

 

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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Quote

Can you think of any traditions, or what one defines as tradition, that are no longer practiced within Christianity or any tradition, or what one defines as tradition, that was not done before but is done nowadays?

I'm no expert on traditions either, may I ask, what are you looking for?

Moses laid a whole bunch of laws, (Thus saith the Lord), on Aaron. Considering we don't use earthen pots, we don't have to break all our pot after using them. Whatever the "sodden" process was, it allowed you to reuse them, but scrub and rinse something like 7 times...between meals. We don't build rock BBQs everywhere we go for sacrifices. I don't believe there are any more high priests that kill particular birds over earthen pots of fresh water anymore, although you never know.

I'm sure you mean traditions with more of an "astray" look to them, but demographics rule.

Picking up sticks on the Sabbath no longer causes God to strike you down. No fires, no cooking, no journey on the Sabbath. It has changed in the Jewish communities in the western world. Electricity is not fire. Temples are more than a journey away.

Should the explosion in an internal combustion engine be classed as a fire? 

There were many debates on how to advance with technology and keep the old traditions, (stemming from OT laws)

I lived in a Jewish dominant area for a couple years. Some even talked to me. Some of the things they told me...

Emergency surgery on the Sabbath is not allowed by one surgeon, it must be two. Reasons were not given, so not sure if it lightens the load to a "not really working" status, or confuses God as to who is actually working so neither are wrongly accused. I don't know all the answers. 

It's like the kosher laws that Islam has semi adapted. You don't wash and salt the entrails and burn them in the open, and you don't give the hind quarters of the animal to the Gentiles or poor inside your gates. 

Sacrifices were changed to Holy Communion for Christianity. Jesus started that tradition at the last supper they had together. As far as I know, all denominations have continued it. 

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On 6/26/2017 at 0:28 AM, LeftCoastMom said:

If if a person was the " worst on earth", he or she clearly does not love or know Jesus. So he or she is likely going to hell. Only God knows. But Catholics do not believe in faith without action and evidence. It's an oxymoron.

I agree. And so do the protestants I know.

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On 6/25/2017 at 8:06 PM, IbnSina said:

A bishop would put the law of the government before the law of God? Then he puts the law of men above the law of God or he is a follower of his personal opinion but not a follower of the words of God, or at least what he considers to be the words of God.

If one were to take the laws of the Bible completely seriously and strictly, like it should, since its the words of the creator of the universe according to its followers, then technically a 14 year old women can marry whoever she wishes without her parents approval if I understood it correctly? 

Our world changes. Conditions are no longer the same as when the Bible was written. Especially the Jewish part of the Bible that partly is almost a milennium older than the Christian Gospels. Common sense say that it is not good for a 14 year old girl or boy to marry if they shall have a good life in a modern society. The Bible also teaches us to treat eachother well.

Edited by andres

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