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Christianity vs Islam

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8 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Oh, if you read the NT, you get a good idea of Jesus' feelings regarding the issue. He literally whipped the money-changers out of the Temple.  I just gave you the verse you asked for. And he didn't  say one couldn't get into heaven...said it was difficult. Obviously Jesus felt there was  a problem. Considering the issue with the hoarding of wealth in some quarters and dire poverty in others..l'd say he was right. 

Also I want to cover the issue of Psalm 45 whereby it describes Prophet Muhammad (saw)

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17 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

Then dont claim Christianity is the truth. Dont be a Christian then and dont call my Quran fake. 

The Quran is the Quran. It is not fake. But like the Bible it is a human product. Back then they had no reason to believe the stories about Abraham, Noa and Adam were not real.

 

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5 minutes ago, andres said:

The Quran is the Quran. It is not fake. But like the Bible it is a human product. Back then they had no reason to believe the stories about Abraham, Noa and Adam were not real.

 

 You cant be a Christian if you dont believe in these Prophets. Clearly you are a hypocrite to even Christianity. Moses brought the 10 commandments that your Bible contains. You are simply chattering nonsense. Also Abraham brought scriptures too so then you just proved yourself wrong and you just claimed the Bible itself is false and you cant even counter me with a logical reply, cant bring proofs for your behalf so why waste your time arguing with me? A human product that claims revelation of God is fake! Because it would not be from God but it would be made from the imagination, falsified information of Man! The Quran is the word of Allah. It is has never been changed and its law no flaw. It brings order to the world. 

Edited by AfricanShia

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32 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

 You cant be a Christian if you dont believe in these Prophets. Clearly you are a hypocrite to even Christianity. Moses brought the 10 commandments that your Bible contains. You are simply chattering nonsense. Also Abraham brought scriptures too so then you just proved yourself wrong and you just claimed the Bible itself is false and you cant even counter me with a logical reply, cant bring proofs for your behalf so why waste your time arguing with me? A human product that claims revelation of God is fake! Because it would not be from God but it would be made from the imagination, falsified information of Man! The Quran is the word of Allah. It is has never been changed and its law no flaw. It brings order to the world. 

Understanding it literally and trying to implement it as such, has brought disorder and conflict to the world. 

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8 minutes ago, andres said:

Understanding it literally and trying to implement it as such, has brought disorder and conflict to the world. 

No its people with beliefs like yours that have done such. 

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1 hour ago, AfricanShia said:

Its not really difficult for a rich man to get into heaven if he does everything Allah has commanded inshallah.  

Obviously Jesus felt attachment to $$$$$ made that harder to do. But you are free to interpret this any way you wish. 

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3 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Obviously Jesus felt attachment to $$$$$ made that harder to do. But you are free to interpret this any way you wish. 

According to my proofs its fact not interpretation whereas you are interpreting it. 

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1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Due to the advent of the secular state, there are no longer any inheritance rules AFAIK in Christian traditions. You can ask other Christians here if that applies in their area. But I also don't know any families broken up over it, either. The usual formula is : wife gets everything if husband dies and vice versa. When parents die, the children get equal shares. That's the way mine is set up. 

Christians have the tradition of the tithe, which is one tenth of your income to be given to charity and some to support the church. Again, due to the secular state, there is no mechanism to force anyone to give that. State and federal taxes provide money for some services to the poor. However, depending in what list you look at, the US is either at the top or in the top twenty "most charitable" countries.

You are talking about traditions, traditions and the law of God are completely different, this is pretty much my point, that modern day Christianity lacks laws and the reason for this is, according to my personal opinion, that these laws have been edited out over time because most humans are reluctant to listen to Allah swt, they would rather listen to themselves, whether it is a question of inheritance or giving away money.

For example, as far as I know, women are required to cover their hair when inside the church. Is this a God given rule or a tradition, or a God given rule that became a tradition that became non existent over time?

 

1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Well, Catholics have the concept of "natural law" as well. The rules are pretty well laid out. People decide to break them, but that's not the same thing as not knowing them or being confused.

However, One of the problems I perceive in this forum is the inability for some Muslims to differentiate between simply cultural Christians  as well as  people who come from a historical Christian family but have not themselves ever been initiated into any faith .....and practicing ones.

The US is not a Christian country. Most of the founders were not technically Christians. It is and was meant to be a secular country.  A large chunk of the population  has no religious affiliation in spite of their family background. They would not claim a religion and one should not be assigned to them. Their actions ,good or bad, should not be assigned to any faith, either.

Hmm, where can I read the rules if I were to just want to read the jurisprudence of christianity, in your case Catholicism?

I understand that of course not all people care about the rules of their religion and that does not change the fact that there are rules. But in this particular case I argue that modern Christianity lacks rules and ruling on many fields, which is also the cause of such different variation of what is "okay" for a christian.

But most fundamentally I believe that the cause of such sway room for what is okay is caused by the concept and understanding of someone ells dying for you sins.

If I have understood it right, then within modern christian faith, as long as you love Jesus, you will ultimately enter heaven, regardless of whether or not you followed and respect his teachings?

Do you personally feel like with regards to jurisprudence the christian faith covers all fields?

 

For the record, i dont blame Christianity nor to I hold the faith accountable for the actions of the american government, such things would be absurd, almost as absurd as blaming Islam for actions of some ex farmers with AK47.

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4 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

 

 

Hmm, where can I read the rules if I were to just want to read the jurisprudence of christianity, in your case Catholicism?

I understand that of course not all people care about the rules of their religion and that does not change the fact that there are rules. But in this particular case I argue that modern Christianity lacks rules and ruling on many fields, which is also the cause of such different variation of what is "okay" for a christian.

 

 

 

Help yourself.....

image.jpeg

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12 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

 

But most fundamentally I believe that the cause of such sway room for what is okay is caused by the concept and understanding of someone ells dying for you sins.

If I have understood it right, then within modern christian faith, as long as you love Jesus, you will ultimately enter heaven, regardless of whether or not you followed and respect his teachings?

 

Catholics don't have this concept. We're the biggest group. The Orthodox do not have this concept. They are the second biggest group.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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14 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

You are talking about traditions, traditions and the law of God are completely different.

 

Do you personally feel like with regards to jurisprudence the christian faith covers all fields?

 

 

Catholics believe their traditions are rooted in Scripture ..." The laws of God" .

 

I can't think of too many situations in my life where canon law did not apply in one way or another...so, pretty much.

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1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Help yourself.....

image.jpeg

Thank you, you mention "muslim child brides freaking christians out" earlier and I searched some within the canon law and I cant really find anything forbidding a women from marrying once she enters puberty.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3Z.HTM

 

Is it correct that the canon law is based on 7 books? These ones?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

 

1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Catholics don't have this concept. We're the biggest group. The Orthodox do not have this concept. They are the second biggest group.

So it is only a protestant thing? @andres I assume your a protestant, what would you say regarding that?

To my knowledge the concept of Jesus dying for your sins is universal for all branches of Christianity, is it not?

What does Catholicism say regarding a person that loves Jesus but is a grave sinner according to cannon law?

 

49 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Catholics believe their traditions are rooted in Scripture ..." The laws of God" .

 

I can't think of too many situations in my life where canon law did not apply in one way or another...so, pretty much.

Could you clarify what you mean by rooted in Scripture?

Are the traditions the laws of God or not? Is there any proof linking these two?

 

Edited by IbnSina

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5 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Thank you, you mention "muslim child brides freaking christians out" earlier and I searched some within the canon law and I cant really find anything forbidding a women from marrying once she enters puberty.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3Z.HTM

 

Is it correct that the canon law is based on 7 books? These ones?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

 

So it is only a protestant thing? @andres I assume your a protestant, what would you say regarding that?

To my knowledge the concept of Jesus dying for your sins is universal for all branches of Christianity, is it not?

What does Catholicism say regarding a person that loves Jesus but is a grave sinner according to cannon law?

 

Could you clarify what you mean by rooted in Scripture?

Are the traditions the laws of God or not? Is there any proof linking these two?

 

IbnSina lovely debating. 

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16 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Thank you, you mention "muslim child brides freaking christians out" earlier and I searched some within the canon law and I cant really find anything forbidding a women from marrying once she enters puberty.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3Z.HTM

 

Is it correct that the canon law is based on 7 books? These ones?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

 

So it is only a protestant thing? @andres I assume your a protestant, what would you say regarding that?

To my knowledge the concept of Jesus dying for your sins is universal for all branches of Christianity, is it not?

What does Catholicism say regarding a person that loves Jesus but is a grave sinner according to cannon law?

 

Could you clarify what you mean by rooted in Scripture?

Are the traditions the laws of God or not? Is there any proof linking these two?

 

Gotta be at an event in a minute.

Quick answers:

Can. 1083 §1. A man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage.

We believe a person's life should reflect  their confessed  faith. Not doing so puts one in danger of purgatory or worse.

The  rest I will have to leave until I return.

 

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12 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

You cant claim that im not Shia over the internet. Have you met me in person? Do you see the way how I react to others? How do you know whether im typing angrily or with the intention of making fun of you? Thats the problem with the Internet. Also you called my Quran fake. I claimed the Bible was corrupted. Not fake. 

I don't have to meet you in person. Your prejudice is on every post and that's not Shia. 
10 years on this site gives me a pretty good idea of what a Shia is, and it doesn't include your attitude. I have great respect for many here because they are Shia, and what that stands for. if you claim to be Shia, you set a bad example for all.

What part of "typing angrily", or "making fun" is Shia?

I have never called the Quran fake. 

You, being African would know more than others the derogotory meaning behind "kafir" and I'm sure takfir is in your vocabulary as well. 
I think you know that flipantly throwing these words around is prohibited. 

Left Coast Mom has been very cordial considering you have the audacity to call her kafir. Knowing your Quran rather well, these ayats should bother you.

“Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [al-Baqarah 2:62]

“Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians – whosoever believed in Allaah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [al-Maa’idah 5:69]
 

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23 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

 

So it is only a protestant thing? @andres I assume your a protestant, what would you say regarding that?

Only God knows who will enter heaven, if you ask me. I am a protestant, but maybe there are some that believe otherwise. Does God know already today who will enter heaven? I believe, since God has given us a free will, he does not know, but protestants differ on this. Is there a hell where sinners will burn eternally in great pain?  Protestants normally believe so, personally I dont think such place make sense, but I dont know. I know however that the OT does not mention it. Could be a later "invention".

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10 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Gotta be at an event in a minute.

Quick answers:

Can. 1083 §1. A man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage.

We believe a person's life should reflect  their confessed  faith. Not doing so puts one in danger of purgatory or worse.

The  rest I will have to leave until I return.

 

I can't answer the Catholic questions and have a few chores to do as well.

It was Paul's directive that a woman's hair should be covered in church. The reason was that a woman's hair was considered her glory, therefore a distraction in the church. Paul also mentioned that women should be silent because the chatter was distracting.

The rich man thing;

There was an opening in the wall surrounding Jerusalem called the eye of the needle. In order for a camel to pass through the opening, all materials, goods, produce, gold, silver, whatever it was carrying had to be removed and the camel had to get on it's knees and crawl through, on it's own, by itself. I assume, by association of the reference that not many camels made it through.

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Psalm 45 is a song written for a kings wedding that happened around 900BCE.
You can break it down into 5 parts.

Singer introduces himself as a singer.
Description of the king
Introduces the bride
Description of the bride
Closes with a promise to promote the kings name for ever.

The irony is the kings name is not mentioned. Most believe it to be king Solomon.

Christians have jumped all over this trying to make a connection to Jesus. Nice sermons have come out of it, but none the less, it was written for a specific king close to 3000 years ago. Reading anything more into it is actually conjecture.

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1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

I don't have to meet you in person. Your prejudice is on every post and that's not Shia. 
10 years on this site gives me a pretty good idea of what a Shia is, and it doesn't include your attitude. I have great respect for many here because they are Shia, and what that stands for. if you claim to be Shia, you set a bad example for all.

What part of "typing angrily", or "making fun" is Shia?

I have never called the Quran fake. 

You, being African would know more than others the derogotory meaning behind "kafir" and I'm sure takfir is in your vocabulary as well. 
I think you know that flipantly throwing these words around is prohibited. 

Left Coast Mom has been very cordial considering you have the audacity to call her kafir. Knowing your Quran rather well, these ayats should bother you.

“Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [al-Baqarah 2:62]

“Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians – whosoever believed in Allaah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [al-Maa’idah 5:69]
 

Those verses are mentioning the Christians and Sabians who accepted the coming of Muhammad during the era of Prophet Isa. Its not talking about Christians after that. Kafir is not an insult by the way. Kafir means one who does not believe in Allah and Muhammad, meaning one who is not Muslim. As I mentioned before you dont know whether or not I was typing angrily or with the intention of making fun of you. Also you yourself dont have the right to not call me Shia when you dont know what being Shia truly is. I dont have an attitude. I was debating Brother. You claimed the Quran was false. I gave you the proofs of the autheticity of Islam yet you keep persisting on proving me wrong yet you cant bring references from the Bible to counter my proofs. Also you kept and you keep claiming on how you have more knowledge than me yet it seems that it is opposite because I took the time to break things down for you but you ignored it. In conclusion I can call you a kafir because technically you are one. Again it is not an insult. If I called a Muslim a kafir than thats wrong. No those verses dont bother me because I explained them to you above.

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1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

Psalm 45 is a song written for a kings wedding that happened around 900BCE.
You can break it down into 5 parts.

Singer introduces himself as a singer.
Description of the king
Introduces the bride
Description of the bride
Closes with a promise to promote the kings name for ever.

The irony is the kings name is not mentioned. Most believe it to be king Solomon.

Christians have jumped all over this trying to make a connection to Jesus. Nice sermons have come out of it, but none the less, it was written for a specific king close to 3000 years ago. Reading anything more into it is actually conjecture.

You forget the fact that Muhammad is considered a King too. Fatima, daughter of Muhammad is called the Princess of slave-maids. 

Edited by AfricanShia

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2 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Those verses are mentioning the Christians and Sabians who accepted the coming of Muhammad during the era of Prophet Isa. Its not talking about Christians after that. Kafir is not an insult by the way. Kafir means one who does not believe in Allah and Muhammad, meaning one who is not Muslim. As I mentioned before you dont know whether or not I was typing angrily or with the intention of making fun of you. Also you yourself dont have the right to not call me Shia when you dont know what being Shia truly is. I dont have an attitude. I was debating Brother. You claimed the Quran was false. I gave you the proofs of the autheticity of Islam yet you keep persisting on proving me wrong yet you cant bring references from the Bible to counter my proofs. Also you kept and you keep claiming on how you have more knowledge than me yet it seems that it is opposite because I took the time to break things down for you but you ignored it. In conclusion I can call you a kafir because technically you are one. Again it is not an insult. If I called a Muslim a kafir than thats wrong. No those verses dont bother me because I explained them to you above.

I didn't say the verses would bother you, I said they should.

Your explanation is one line with no source, no proof against what the Qur'an actually says.

A Jew is not a Muslim, a Christian is not a Muslim, a Sabian is not a Muslim. The criteria is quite simple.

Believes in one God.  Believes in the last day.  Does righteous deeds.  That's less than the laws given to Gentiles.

Nothing about following Muhammad in either surah. Don't care what your grey narratives say, the Quran is black on white on this. 

What was revealed to Muhammad was the same as was revealed to Abraham and Jesus in their time. If you deny this, you deny the all Prophets their rightful place. 

Over the 10 years I have been on this site I have not called the Qur'an false, say what you like. I don't consider it to be false, so why would I say it is?  What you don't know is kicking you in the butt.

You still have to explain how Muhammad was to become the leader of the Levites, and why he was mentioned in the Bible as one cursed of God.

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3 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

You forget the fact that Muhammad is considered a King too. Fatima, daughter of Muhammad is called the Princess of slave-maids. 

You forget Jesus was also called a king, (not in reference to the father of a princess so must be kind of a king.) You also forget there were kings before and after Solomon, but that the song (why the book is called Psalms) was written for him. Like I said, conjecture.

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52 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

I didn't say the verses would bother you, I said they should.

Your explanation is one line with no source, no proof against what the Qur'an actually says.

A Jew is not a Muslim, a Christian is not a Muslim, a Sabian is not a Muslim. The criteria is quite simple.

Believes in one God.  Believes in the last day.  Does righteous deeds.  That's less than the laws given to Gentiles.

Nothing about following Muhammad in either surah. Don't care what your grey narratives say, the Quran is black on white on this. 

What was revealed to Muhammad was the same as was revealed to Abraham and Jesus in their time. If you deny this, you deny the all Prophets their rightful place. 

Over the 10 years I have been on this site I have not called the Qur'an false, say what you like. I don't consider it to be false, so why would I say it is?  What you don't know is kicking you in the butt.

You still have to explain how Muhammad was to become the leader of the Levites, and why he was mentioned in the Bible as one cursed of God.

Im sorry. 

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6 hours ago, andres said:

Only God knows who will enter heaven, if you ask me. I am a protestant, but maybe there are some that believe otherwise. Does God know already today who will enter heaven? I believe, since God has given us a free will, he does not know, but protestants differ on this. Is there a hell where sinners will burn eternally in great pain?  Protestants normally believe so, personally I dont think such place make sense, but I dont know. I know however that the OT does not mention it. Could be a later "invention".

Im sorry.

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7 hours ago, IbnSina said:

 

 

Is it correct that the canon law is based on 7 books? These ones?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

 

So it is only a protestant thing? @andres I assume your a protestant, what would you say regarding that?

To my knowledge the concept of Jesus dying for your sins is universal for all branches of Christianity, is it not?

 

 

Could you clarify what you mean by rooted in Scripture?

Are the traditions the laws of God or not? Is there any proof linking these two?

 

The first question....that's a list of the parts of canon law (books )themselves. You can get it in one big tome like I have minus all the explanations. Canon law is based on Scripture and the Church Tradition and Disciplines derived thereof according to the interpretation of the Catholic Church.

 

Yes, the concept Jesus dying for our sins is pretty universal in Christianity, but what happens after conversion differs according to some different Christian groups. Not all believe in eternal salvation no matter what. Of course, Catholics think you can get purified in Purgatory if you mess up,but not too badly.

As far as traditions and God's law....one example...Catholics  are supposed to follow the Ten Commandments. ( I am assuming Muslims consider that the law of God? Would I be correct?) As far as a more every-day specific example of another kind goes: Canon Law does accept arranged marriages as well as " love-matches" initiated by the couple themselves. In either case, consent must be clearly given. Forced marriages are not allowed. I think it is the same in Islam.

 

Hope this helps. Sorry... Tired after a funeral.

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7 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Christianity is very limited with jurisprudence and doesnt really have any rooted jurisprudence at aside the 10 commandments. 

Well, if you think seven fat annotated law books ruling everything under the Catholic sun from the liturgy  to birth control is " limited", I admire you. 

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3 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Im sorry. 

I'm sorry too. I am too quick to jump on things. My Father is, by his very nature, Placid, me, not always. 

 

Back in the late 80's I had opportunity to work with a Muslim on evening shifts. We teamed up, did the job and had time to talk until 5:30 and he was gone for an hour. Lunch break was over before dusk, so I didn't see him for another hour. He was Arabic/broken French, I was English/broken French but somehow we managed to convey our message. He explained a little Ramadan to me and I was good with it. We often had time to talk, even while working.

One day he invited me to his "prayer room". We didn't talk religion, we talked about God, how we understood Him, how we worshiped Him, why we knew we should. The attributes we knew and the ones we came to realize through life.  The he said, "It is time to pray". I had no idea what he said, but we prayed back and forth, talked, prayed more, went back to work. I never had time to eat before the sun came up, but I managed to fast the last four days as respect for him and Islam as we discussed. On the last day he stopped reciting and we looked at each other. I said, "Do you feel that?". He said, "That is the Spirit from God, come to be with us." We praised, we wept, it changed us both. He never really knew me as "Christian", I never knew him more than whatever "Muslim" meant, but "religion" did not separate us. God does not separate real believers, religion does. 

I didn't know we were supposed to argue until I got on this site.

 

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2 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I didn't know we were supposed to argue until I got on this site.

It is one thing to argue with each other in an angry tone and it is another to hold friendly discussions where we exchange information and compare. I like the second on, not the first one.

And that was a nice story you shared, thanks!

Edited by IbnSina

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13 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Gotta be at an event in a minute.

Quick answers:

Can. 1083 §1. A man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage.

We believe a person's life should reflect  their confessed  faith. Not doing so puts one in danger of purgatory or worse.

The  rest I will have to leave until I return.

 

Sorry to hear about the funeral, my condolences.

Hmm, i see, but in most countries in the world, a 14 year old women is still considered a child, so she would still be a "child bride" so why would christians get freaked out by a child bride if their own religious laws allows it?

Does a women need her fathers permission to get married in your school of thought?

 

7 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Catholics think you can get purified in Purgatory if you mess up,but not too badly.

Purified how? Thru punishment?

 

7 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

The first question....that's a list of the parts of canon law (books )themselves. You can get it in one big tome like I have minus all the explanations. Canon law is based on Scripture and the Church Tradition and Disciplines derived thereof according to the interpretation of the Catholi

Hmm, when you say that Cannon laws are based on scripture, does that mean that they are derived from the Bible?

The term church tradition is still confusing to me, what is it exactly based of? Like if you would ask the leader of the church, would they be able to provide concrete sources for these traditions?

I am not sure what islam says about the 10 commandments, ive never looked into it. And yes, forced marriages are not valid in Islam.

 

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14 hours ago, andres said:

Only God knows who will enter heaven, if you ask me. I am a protestant, but maybe there are some that believe otherwise. Does God know already today who will enter heaven? I believe, since God has given us a free will, he does not know, but protestants differ on this. Is there a hell where sinners will burn eternally in great pain?  Protestants normally believe so, personally I dont think such place make sense, but I dont know. I know however that the OT does not mention it. Could be a later "invention".

For sure only God knows who will enter heaven.

According to the islamic faith there is such a thing as eternal hell, that is were satan will be sent to for example. Also, denying the existence of the Almighty, is not a small thing. It is the peak of ungratefulness, to have been created from fluid into a full walking and talking and thinking human being and then deny his creator, it is really shameful. Also some people even knowingly tries to work against God and people who do good, they believe satan should be worshiped.

Anyways, that put to side: What does the school of protestants in of itself say regarding that which I mentioned, is it possible to go to heaven regardless of the amounts of sins done if one loves Jesus? If one believes he died for ones sins, does that not excuse oneself from any sin committed?

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3 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I'm sorry too. I am too quick to jump on things. My Father is, by his very nature, Placid, me, not always. 

 

Back in the late 80's I had opportunity to work with a Muslim on evening shifts. We teamed up, did the job and had time to talk until 5:30 and he was gone for an hour. Lunch break was over before dusk, so I didn't see him for another hour. He was Arabic/broken French, I was English/broken French but somehow we managed to convey our message. He explained a little Ramadan to me and I was good with it. We often had time to talk, even while working.

One day he invited me to his "prayer room". We didn't talk religion, we talked about God, how we understood Him, how we worshiped Him, why we knew we should. The attributes we knew and the ones we came to realize through life.  The he said, "It is time to pray". I had no idea what he said, but we prayed back and forth, talked, prayed more, went back to work. I never had time to eat before the sun came up, but I managed to fast the last four days as respect for him and Islam as we discussed. On the last day he stopped reciting and we looked at each other. I said, "Do you feel that?". He said, "That is the Spirit from God, come to be with us." We praised, we wept, it changed us both. He never really knew me as "Christian", I never knew him more than whatever "Muslim" meant, but "religion" did not separate us. God does not separate real believers, religion does. 

I didn't know we were supposed to argue until I got on this site.

 

Its okay. Its not healthy to debate anyways. 

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