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Tryingtolearn

5 best questions I've got Shiism/Sunni peace

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(Bismillah)

Salam I don't wanna sound like an atheist but I'm trying to be as critical as I can cuz these questions are holding me back from being a Shia Muslim and I would be so happy if u could answer these questions so that people don't always win me in argues with these questions thank u.

1. Is it true that if u revert or convert away from Islam u will be killed: 

Quran

Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should reject faith as they reject faith, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."  Verse 4:65 says that those who have faith are in "full submission" to Muhammad's teachings.  This verse explains what should happen to Muslims who do not have faith. 

Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith that establish the death sentence for apostates are Quran verses 2:2179:73-7488:215:549:66

Hadith and Sira

The most reliable Hadith collection contain numerous accounts of Muhammad and his companions putting people to death for leaving Islam. According to verse4:80 of the Quran: "Those who obey the Messenger obey Allah."

Sahih Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " 

Sahih Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Sahih Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Sahih Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'" 

 

2. Why is Shiism the right sect when we hit our selfs for Imam Hussein wen hurting yourself is haram and hitting yourself on the chest makes health issues worse. And did the imams or prophet tell us to hit each other or slice each other up and tawasul is haram right u can only pray to Allah or else it's haram in the beginning of the Quran it says worship Allah alone only him and there is no verse supporting to say ya ali or ya Hussein why can't we say ya Allah or ya Muhammad rasolallah why do we put more focus on the imams and not as much to the prophet. If you answer to these questions and it make sense and with sources I will convert to Shia Islam 

3. Is the Darwin theory true? Or Adam and Eve can any of it be true and how.

4. It's haram to take over other countries and take their land like tha caliphs did right and  if the prophet allowed it is their any proof and why was it to have power is this the pure Islam?

5. We shouldn't be visiting Imams shrines no I mean like puttinggg gold around it it's haram right and also people talk with the imams why isn't this haram and some imams say that the Quran is not the right version. And they focus so much on Imam Hussein and hit them selves why is it ok if u don't do that? 

Extra questions why are the Middle East contries back is it cuz of  o freedom like the sharia law why do people that don't Belive in Islam have to follow our rules and don't u think thoose rules were good for 1400 years ago, why do we have marjas?

thank u so much brothers and sisters 

Allah hafiz

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1 hour ago, Tryingtolearn said:

1. Is it true that if u revert or convert away from Islam u will be killed: 

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. 

So No. If someone does that his/her personal deed. Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. 

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2 hours ago, Tryingtolearn said:

The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'

Only fools think that everything in Sahih Bukhari is true and accurate. Firstly this book was written by the companions and there is a very big chance it could of been corrupted.  I have seen a lot of crazy stuff in Sahih Bukhari which goes against the teachings of Quran and Ahlulbayt (as).

2 hours ago, Tryingtolearn said:

Why is Shiism the right sect when we hit our selfs for Imam Hussein wen hurting yourself is haram and hitting yourself on the chest makes health issues worse.

For a fact, hitting yourself doesn't have anything to do with the tenets of the Shia sect. I know Ayotollah Sistani and Khameini are against it. There is no hadith from the Imams which tell us to do so. Therefore, making yourself bleed shouldn't be something which should stop you becoming a Shia. I am a Shia and I choose to attend gatherings during Muharram etc however refraining from making myself bleed.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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18 hours ago, kirtc said:

sahih bukhari is the most corrupt book of hadith, shias dont follow it. Isis do

 

16 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. 

So No. If someone does that his/her personal deed. Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. 

 

15 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Only fools think that everything in Sahih Bukhari is true and accurate. Firstly this book was written by the companions and there is a very big chance it could of been corrupted.  I have seen a lot of crazy stuff in Sahih Bukhari which goes against the teachings of Quran and Ahlulbayt (as).

For a fact, hitting yourself doesn't have anything to do with the tenets of the Shia sect. I know Ayotollah Sistani and Khameini are against it. There is no hadith from the Imams which tell us to do so. Therefore, making yourself bleed shouldn't be something which should stop you becoming a Shia. I am a Shia and I choose to attend gatherings during Muharram etc however refraining from making myself bleed.

Ayatullah Sistani's view on punishment of apostasy http://www.sistani.org/arabic/qa/0279/

السؤال: ما هو تعريفكم للمرتد بالتفصيل ؟ الجواب: المرتد وهو من خرج عن الاِسلام واختار الكفر على قسمين: فطري وملّي، والفطري من ولد على اسلام احد ابويه أو كليها ثم كفر، وفي اعتبار اسلامه بعد التمييز قبل الكفر وجهان اقربهما الاعتبار. وحكم الفطري انه يقتل في الحال، وتبين منه زوجته بمجرد ارتداده وينفسخ نكاحها بغير طلاق، وتعتد عدة الوفاة ـ على ما تقدم ـ ثم تتزوج ان شاءت، وتُقسّم امواله التي كانت له حين ارتداده بين ورثته بعد اداء ديونه كالميت ولا ينتظر موته، ولا تفيد توبته ورجوعه الى الاسلام في سقوط الاحكام المذكورة مطلقاً على المشهور، ولكنه لا يخلو عن شوب اشكال، نعم لا اشكال في عدم وجوب استتابته. وأما بالنسبة الى ما عدا الاحكام الثلاثة المذكورات فالاقوى قبول توبته باطناً وظاهراً، فيطهر بدنه وتصح عباداته ويجوز تزويجه من المسلمة، بل له تجديد العقد على زوجته السابقة حتى قبل خروجها من العدة على القول ببينونتها عنه بمجرد الارتداد، والظاهر انه يملك الاموال الجديدة باسبابه الاختيارية كالنجارة والحيازة والقهرية كالارث ولو قبل توبته. واما المرتد الملّي ـ وهو من يقابل الفطري ـ فحكمه انه يستتاب، فان تاب وإلاّ قتل، وانفسخ نكاح زوجته إذا كان الارتداد قبل الدخول أو كانت يائسة أو صغيرة ولم تكن عليها عدة، وأما إذا كان الارتداد بعد الدخول وكانت المرأة في سن من تحيض وجب عليها ان تعتد عدة الطلاق من حين الارتداد، فان رجع عن ارتداده الى الاسلام قبل انقضاء العدة بقي الزواج على حاله على الاقرب وإلاّ انكشف انها قد بانت عنه عند الارتداد. ولا تقسم أموال المرتد الملي إلاّ بعد موته بالقتل أو غيره، وإذا تاب ثم ارتد ففي وجوب قتله من دون استتابة في الثالثة أو الرابعة اشكال. هذا إذا كان المرتد رجلاً، واما لو كان امرأة فلا تقتل ولا تنتقل اموالها عنها الى الورثة إلاّ بالموت، وينفسخ نكاحها بمجرد الارتداد بدون اعتداد مع عدم الدخول أو كونها صغيرة أو يائسة وإلاّ توقف الانفساخ على انقضاء العدة وهي بمقدار عدة الطلاق كما مر في المسألة (٥٦٣). وتحبس المرتدة ويضيّق عليها وتضرب على الصلاة حتى تتوب فان تابت قبلت توبتها، ولا فرق في ذلك بين أن تكون مرتدة عن ملة أو عن فطرة.

Question: What is your detailed definition of apostasy?

Answer: The apostate is the one who has left islam and chosen disbelief, and their are two categories of apostastes: Fitri and Milli. A Fitri is the one who was born into islam, and either one or both of his parents are muslim, then he apostasized. This is under the assumption that he is any of level of religiosity, bar complete disbelief in islam. The ruling on the Fitri is death immediately. His marriage with his wife is instantly made void, without need for a divorce, and continues until his death. Afterwards, she may marry as she pleases. His money/finances that he owned during his time of apostasy are divided between his heirs, but only after his financial debts are payed. This is done whilst he is alive, as if he had died. His repentance and return to islam does not revoke the ruling against him in any case. However, he can repent.

As for the Milli, His ruling is that he repents. He either repents, or is killed. His marriage to his wife is made void if he apostastized before consummation, or if she is upset with the marriage, or if she is small and Iddah doesnt apply to her (meaning virgin again)If he apostatized after consummation, or the wife has reached the age of menstruation then she must go through Iddah of divorce (3 month waiting period) and if he repents and returns to islam before the 3 months of Iddah are up, the marriage is resumed as normal, unless she wanted to be irrevocably divorced whilst he was still an apostate. The finances of the Milli apostate are not divided whilst he is still alive, only after his death (compared to the Fitri, where it is done whilst alive). If he apostatizes a second time, it is then obligatory to kill him, with his repentance unable to revoke the ruling. 

In the case, of the apostate being a woman, she is not to be killed, and her money not removed from her unless she dies. Her marriage is void just by the fact she apostatises, regardless if they had consummated or she is small, or she is upset/doesnt want husband. It may be resumed if she repents during the Iddah (3 month period). She is to be imprisoned in a narrow space, and hit, to make her pray, until she repents. Her repentance is accepted. There is not difference in this ruling whether she is a Milli or a Fitri.

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19 hours ago, Tryingtolearn said:

Salam I don't wanna sound like an atheist but I'm trying to be as critical as I can cuz these questions are holding me back from being a Shia Muslim and I would be so happy if u could answer these questions so that people don't always win me in argues with these questions thank u.

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/apostacy-islam-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi#introduction

I suggest you & all my brothers & sisters participating in discussions here, to read the above article. Never start giving fatwa on religious issues if you dont have knowledge.

 

Edited by Salsabeel

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On 6/8/2017 at 11:30 PM, Tryingtolearn said:

2. Why is Shiism the right sect when we hit our selfs for Imam Hussein wen hurting yourself is haram and hitting yourself on the chest makes health issues worse. And did the imams or prophet tell us to hit each other or slice each other up and tawasul is haram right u can only pray to Allah or else it's haram in the 

Shia follow  QUR'AN and ahl  albyt  that  is mentioned in hfith of two weight things. they . are the purified ones by Allah  swt  thery should be followed for right  guidance

Mourning for imam  hussin is sunna of the prophet sww. and it is not haram

The verse of wseela (535)  in QUR'AN  provides the evidence for tawasul . It is considered  haram by whbi not by shii and sunni

 

 

Edited by skyweb1987

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On 6/8/2017 at 11:30 PM, Tryingtolearn said:

5. We shouldn't be visiting Imams shrines no I mean like puttinggg gold around it it's haram right and also people talk with the imams why isn't this haram and some imams say that the Quran is not the right version. And they focus so much on Imam Hussein and hit them selves why is it ok if u don't do that? 

Visiting the graves is considered  haram by whbi not by shii and sunni

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3 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Visiting the graves is considered  haram by whbi not by shii and sunni

The destruction of the graveshrines is actually an attempt to destroy all heritage that reminds us of Islam.  

There is an evil plan behind it.

Edited by Faruk

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1 minute ago, skyweb1987 said:

This destruction is followed by  ISIS and their followers to keep the people away from true islam

Saudi's started it with Janat al-Baqi.

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On 6/8/2017 at 2:30 PM, Tryingtolearn said:

 

3. Is the Darwin theory true? Or Adam and Eve can any of it be true and how.

 
 

This is a question of science, not one of religion.

Edited by iCambrian

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On 2017-06-08 at 8:30 PM, Tryingtolearn said:

. Why is Shiism the right sect when we hit our selfs for Imam Hussein wen hurting yourself is haram and hitting yourself on the chest makes health issues worse. And did the imams or prophet tell us to hit each other or slice each other up and tawasul is haram right u can only pray to Allah or else it's haram in the beginning of the Quran it says worship Allah alone only him and there is no verse supporting to say ya ali or ya Hussein why can't we say ya Allah or ya Muhammad rasolallah why do we put more focus on the imams and not as much to the prophet. If you answer to these questions and it make sense and with sources I will convert to Shia Islam 

Asslamu alaykum,

Tawassul is not haram, actually it is one of the things that both the sunni and shia schools of thought agree upon, it is the wahhabis who have declared it haram because they do not understand the religion of Islam. I will explain to you why tawassul is not haram.

First of all, tawassul is not praying to other than Allah swt, but rather asking someone beloved to Allah to make dua for you. Then you might say that Imam Ali (as) or the other Imams (as) are dead, but the Quran proves us otherwise. In Surah 2 verse 154 Allah swt says that those who are martyrs are not dead, and as we know, all Imams except Imam Mahdi were martyred: 

And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , "They are dead." Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.

Another ayah:

Think not of those who are martyred in the way of Allah as dead. Nay! They are living, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.”(Qur’an 3:169)

Clearly this ayah tells us that those who are martyred are not 'dead' as we would think, but alive but we are unaware of them, therefore, asking Imam Ali (as), Imam Hussain (as) or any other Imam or someone killed in the way of Allah swt is not haram or shirk. It is rather very clear that this is permissible and completely fine to do, if you are aware of the fact that the person you ask is not the one granting your dua. Tawassul is a concept of Islam because we as servants of Allah swt can ask him to grant us things, and he can answer, but the dua of the masomeen, who are beloved to Allah swt, will always be stronger than the dua of a regular muslim.

It is very clear that the concept of tawassul does not include belief in that the Prophet (saw) or Imams (as) have any independent power from Allah. You can read more in depth here: https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/tawassul-resorting-intermediary

As for the issue of tatbir, there is not one view on this in the shia school of thought. Some maraja3 prohibit it, while others such as Sayed Sadiq Shirazi encourage it, and others do not have a specific fatwa or view on tatbir. Here are views of different scholars:

Grand Ayatullah Khoei: “If blood matam and hitting oneself with chains, which are practiced in Muharram, cause serious harm, or harm or ridicule the religion and sect then it is impermissible.”

Al-Masa’il al-Shar’iyah, istifta’at Imam Khoei, al-Ibadat and al-Tariq al-Najah, v.2, p.445

Sayed Ali al-Sistani: 

Question:
I want to know the status of beating our backs with knives (Zanjeer) on the day of Ashura? What is it’s status in our Fiqh?

The philosophy of mourning during ‘Ashura’, is to respect the symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain, his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by the Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. So those actions which are not understandable and cause misunderstandings and contempt for the religion must be avoided.

Ayatullah Khomeini: “Mourning and chest beating for the “unjustly treated” (the victims of the tragedy of Karbala) is amongst the best of religious practices, but the participants must exert due diligence to avoid wounds and the flowing of blood. If such actions bring about disrepute to the religion then they are forbidden. At any rate it is reccomended that the participants refrain from such actions.

Sayed Sadiq Shirazi: As for the ritual of Tatbir (Qama Zani) it is Halal and Mustahab.

As you can see there are different views on the topic, but most of them are either against the very intense tatbir or prohibit it because it can give us shias a bad name. And then there are some scholars who do not prohibit it at all. 

And lastly, your claim about us shias putting more emphasis on the Ahlulbayt rather than the Propthet (saw), is not true. To follow the sunnah of Rasoolallah (saw) is to follow and LOVE the Ahlulbayt (as). We emphasize the Ahlulbayt because the Prophet (saw) told us to do so. In Sunni sources you have different versions of hadith al Thaqalayn for example. 

/../ I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it." Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah. Then he said, "And my Ahlul Bayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt"'" ....

(Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada'il al-­Sahabah [Maktabat wa Matba’at Muhammad ‘Ali Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.)

Verily, I have left behind two precious things amongst you, one of which is greater than the other. The Book of Allah, the Exalted, and my ‘itrah (kindred). So watch out how you treat these two after me, for verily they will not separate from each other until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.' Then he said 'Verily, Allah, the Almighty and the Glorious, is my master (mawla) and I am the master of every believer (mu'min).' Then he took ‘Ali, may God be pleased with him, by the hand and said, 'This (‘Ali) is the master of whomever I am his master. O God, love whoever loves him and be the enemy of his enemy.'" 

(Bukhari and Muslim)

So as you can see the Prophet (saw) himself put a huge emphasis on the Ahlulbayt (as) and there are numerous ahadith where he speaks about the members of his family, for example Imam Ali (as). 

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "Had there been any soul on the whole earth better than Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan and al-Husain, Allah would have commanded me to take them along with me to Mubahala. But as they were superior in dignity and respect to all human be beings, Allah confined His choice on them only for participation in Mubahala." Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Baidhawi, under the commentary of Verse 3:61

 

The Messenger of Allah said: "Whosoever wishes to live and die like me and enter that heaven (after death), which my lord has promised me, namely, the ever lasting heaven should acknowledge Ali as his patron after me, and after him he should acknowledge the sons of Ali, because they are the people who will never leave you outside the door of guidance nor will they let you enter the door of misguidance." Sunni references: Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p155, Tradition #2578

 

"Verily Allah has dedicated my wage (of prophethood) to love of my Ahlul-Bayt, and I shall question you about it on the day of judgment."

Sunni references: Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p26, al-Sirah, by al-Mala

 

The Messenger of Allah said: "He who loves me and loves these two: al-Hasan and al-Husayn, and loves their father and mother, he will be with me in Paradise."

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p641, Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, on the authority of Imam ‘Ali (as), Fadha’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p693, Tradition #1185, al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p264

 

"Loving Ali (A.S.) is the Sign of Belief"

"Loving Ali is the sign of belief, and hating Ali is the sign of hypocrisy"
1. Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
2. Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;
3. Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142;
4. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128
5. Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202
6. Hilyatul Awliya', by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p185
7. Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462

Rasulullah (s) said:
"Whoever leaves Ali, leaves me, whoever leaves me, leaves Allah" [Kanz ul Ummal, hadith numbers 32974 - 32976, narrated by Abdullah ibn Umar {through two chains} and Abu Dharr Ghaffari (ra).

I hope that is sufficient if you want more hadiths check these pages, and if you want me to elaborate on something then please just ask. 

http://islamicblessings.com/upload/Collection-Ahlul-Bayt-Proof-Hadith-in-Sunni-Books.pdf

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/reward-loving-ahlul-bayt

https://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=5318

 

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*****

Here is my Layman understanding of the issues here in this thread.

The English word, Apostasy is defined as the abandonment or renunciation of a Belief( political/religious)

Treason is defined as the crime of betraying one’s country/State, especially by attempting to kill a sovereign or overthrow the government.

Traitor's) a person/groups betrayed a country/state. Is tried in a judicial court.

Court Martial a judicial court for trying members of the armed services accused of offenses against military law.

An established and Authorized Process based on the Constitution of a Country/State.  A constitutional Court tries the Traitor and a Constitutional Judge establishes the punishment based on that particular case and orders the punishment to be carried out by the Authorised Authorities).

Individuals can’t take the Law in their own hands and establish if a person is guilty and certainly not Allowed to carry out the Punishment.

Above facts are very obvious but we tend to overlook them. Having a basic understanding is important.

When a General Fatwa(Constitutional Ruling is posted, its is important to understand its a general ruling, and what does it mean when it says “ , “either or both parents are Muslims” (what is been assumed here- By “Muslims” meaning what? Where they practicing Muslims , they did their job of explaining the basic of Islam, did the person reach age of Maturity and acknowledge the basic based on proofs and reason and later left …(Many conditions that need to be satisfied and looked into by the Authorized and Qualified Jurist ….

Unlike other Belief(s) Islam is not only a personal relationship between a person and his/her God. If one has this outlook, Most of what Islam has to say will look foreign and may be violent.

Islam is a way of life. It incorporates a personal relationship, personal responsibilities, personal worship, and Every other aspect of Life including Governance of a group, societies, State/Country.

In terms of Governance/State/Country. Treason will be applicable.

In terms of secular state this will be a Constitutional/Judicial Issue. Establishment of the Guilt will be up to an Authorized Constitutional Judge. Which will examine if the person is not incapacitated in any way- mentally competent and understand the out of its action(s).

If found guilty by the Constitutional Authorities, Punishment will be carried out by the State Authorities. (Not be individuals)).

Similarly, in here Fiqh/Jurisprudence issue. A general opinion is been expressed, with many Conditions that need to be properly satisfied.  Every case will be different evaluated and judged on it own merits and special circumstances and an Authorized Jurist will determine the outcome and State Authorities will carry out the punishment. (Not Individuals). More importantly it terms of a Islamic Country/State. Treason is the best way to understand it.

What people do in their individual lives and to what extent they believe or practice or go through doubts etc.. is very different.

Similarly, as Islam is a way of life, the Constitution does contain laws in how to deal with Aggression (Against a Society/State/Country) and defines its limits.  Again this will be at a State/Country level not at carried out by the Authorities. Not random Individuals taking law in their own hands and interpreting it for their tribal advantage to wage wars for political and monetary gains.  

Qur’an was revealed over 23 years and a Verse can be specific where it is referring to a specific event and general in meaning. Important thing is that as religion is considered as an individual issue, here it's referring to a State/Country. Not you as an individual are allowed to execute these directives related to Treason/Aggression/war.

Similarly, an Atheist, (which is a very loaded word). Could be a person who denies the Version of God propagated by groups who call themselves so called Muslims who  engage in the most violent acts against other populations. A person may say, I believe in a God but not your version of God.

Layman.

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On 6/8/2017 at 2:30 PM, Tryingtolearn said:

rules were good for 1400 years ago, why do we have marjas

Taqlid

Quote

It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept the word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof.

However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:........

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid#following-mujtahid

Here is my Layman understanding.

Constitution, a body of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a state or other organization is acknowledged to be governed.

Supreme Court the highest judicial court in a country or state. the highest federal court in the US, consisting of nine justices and taking judicial precedence over all other courts in the nation.

Again, Islam is not a personal relationship (only). It governs All aspects of Life of an individual and society/state/country. In this case a Global reach in Governance  thru Najaf & Qum.

Marja(Jurist) interprets the New Issues based on the Constitution in terms of Fiqhi Issues(constitutional Issues).

Layman.

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13 hours ago, Nadia. said:

Asslamu alaykum,

Tawassul is not haram, actually it is one of the things that both the sunni and shia schools of thought agree upon, it is the wahhabis who have declared it haram because they do not understand the religion of Islam. I will explain to you why tawassul is not haram.

First of all, tawassul is not praying to other than Allah swt, but rather asking someone beloved to Allah to make dua for you. Then you might say that Imam Ali (as) or the other Imams (as) are dead, but the Quran proves us otherwise. In Surah 2 verse 154 Allah swt says that those who are martyrs are not dead, and as we know, all Imams except Imam Mahdi were martyred: 

And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , "They are dead." Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.

Another ayah:

Think not of those who are martyred in the way of Allah as dead. Nay! They are living, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.”(Qur’an 3:169)

Clearly this ayah tells us that those who are martyred are not 'dead' as we would think, but alive but we are unaware of them, therefore, asking Imam Ali (as), Imam Hussain (as) or any other Imam or someone killed in the way of Allah swt is not haram or shirk. It is rather very clear that this is permissible and completely fine to do, if you are aware of the fact that the person you ask is not the one granting your dua. Tawassul is a concept of Islam because we as servants of Allah swt can ask him to grant us things, and he can answer, but the dua of the masomeen, who are beloved to Allah swt, will always be stronger than the dua of a regular muslim.

It is very clear that the concept of tawassul does not include belief in that the Prophet (saw) or Imams (as) have any independent power from Allah. You can read more in depth here: https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/tawassul-resorting-intermediary

W.salam

They are alive no doubt about that but are they alive like us in this world. Even if yes then does it make them all hearing, but surely we in this world are not all hearing. We only hear things which are nearby us and not the things which thousands of miles away (this is possible only via phones and need credit as well). Plus when hundreds or thousands of people are talking at the same time we hardly hear anyone properly. ANd if they are alive like us in physical realm then why their wives became widow and why their wealth became distributed among their children. This is not tawassul. Calling upon anyone else besides Allah directly in the form of dua is prohibited. Quran is very clear in this matter. for e.g see Ghafir 14, 60.

WHen they were alive like us in this wolrd people used to approach them physically and ask to make dua for them. And so they used to pray for them to Allah. But after their departure from this world there remains no way for us to have any sort of communication with them. Not even with the hidden living 12th shia Imam.

[3:144] Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful.

 

13 hours ago, Nadia. said:

As for the issue of tatbir, there is not one view on this in the shia school of thought. Some maraja3 prohibit it, while others such as Sayed Sadiq Shirazi encourage it, and others do not have a specific fatwa or view on tatbir. Here are views of different scholars:

This is because you are following maraja system, not ahlebayt. Anything on this subject from ahlebayt? So that we can confirm which maraja is on truth.

 

13 hours ago, Nadia. said:

And lastly, your claim about us shias putting more emphasis on the Ahlulbayt rather than the Propthet (saw), is not true. To follow the sunnah of Rasoolallah (saw) is to follow and LOVE the Ahlulbayt (as). We emphasize the Ahlulbayt because the Prophet (saw) told us to do so. In Sunni sources you have different versions of hadith al Thaqalayn for example. 

/../ I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it." Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah. Then he said, "And my Ahlul Bayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt"'" ....

(Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada'il al-­Sahabah [Maktabat wa Matba’at Muhammad ‘Ali Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.)

Verily, I have left behind two precious things amongst you, one of which is greater than the other. The Book of Allah, the Exalted, and my ‘itrah (kindred). So watch out how you treat these two after me, for verily they will not separate from each other until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.' Then he said 'Verily, Allah, the Almighty and the Glorious, is my master (mawla) and I am the master of every believer (mu'min).' Then he took ‘Ali, may God be pleased with him, by the hand and said, 'This (‘Ali) is the master of whomever I am his master. O God, love whoever loves him and be the enemy of his enemy.'" 

(Bukhari and Muslim)

These versions say following:

Leaving two precious thing. One is greater than the other i.e Quran.

In Quran there is light and guidance. So get hold and adhere to it.

As for ahlebayt, prophet said take care of them (I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahlul Bayt). And if you read the entire narration you will know that here ahlebayt is not only limited to 5 or 12 or 14 people but four families.

Prophet did not say to follow Ali a.s after me. If this would have been the case then prophet should have said O God, love whoever follows him and be the enemy of the ones who dont follow him. But rather he said O God, love whoever loves him and be the enemy of his enemy.'" 

So about ahlebayt Prophet saww ordered us to love them, take care of them. And love of ahlebayt is a sign of true believer. No dispute on this between shia and sunni. You can check their books on refutation of nawasib.

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2 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Prophet did not say to follow Ali a.s after me. If this would have been the case then prophet should have said O God, love whoever follows him and be the enemy of the ones who dont follow him. But rather he said O God, love whoever loves him and be the enemy of his enemy.'" 

 

There are numerous additions where he says this exact thing, if you want to look for them then do it, but that would not suit your views. I included those ahadith that were relevant to the topic asked. If tawassul is so haram then why are both the sunni and shia schools of thought agreeing upon it? Also, it is not sufficient with loving Ahlulbayt and this is very clear. There is the event of Ghadeer to read about. 

Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over

the believers than what they have over themselves?" People cried and

answered: "Yes, O' Messenger of God." Then Prophet (pbuh) held up the

hand of Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his

leader (Mawla). O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to

those who are hostile to him."

Some of the Sunni references:

(1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63

(2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43

(3) Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 4,21

(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371

(5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370,

372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)

(6) Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572

(7) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)

(8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50

(9) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19

(10) Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173

(11) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208

(12) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114

(13) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308

(14) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144

(15) Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26

(16) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319,

v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143

(17) Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn

al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas,

Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,...

(18) Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290

(19) Hilyatul Awliya', by al-Hafiz Abu Nu'aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27

(20) al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn" (Ali), v2, p462

(21) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397

(22) al-Mirqat, v5, p568

(23) al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172

(24) Dhaka'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68

(25) Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217

(26) Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p297

 

Revelation of Verse 5:3

Immediately after the Prophet (PBUH&HF) finished his speech, the following

verse of Holy Quran was revealed:

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon

you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Quran 5:3)

Some of Sunni references which mentioned the revelation of the above

verse of Quran in Ghadir Khum after the speech of the Prophet:

(1) al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19

(2) Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra

(3) Manaqaib, by Ibn Maghazali, p19

(4) History of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, v2, p75

(5) al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p13

(6) Manaqib, by Khawarazmi al-Hanfi, p80

(7) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213

(8) Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p115

(9) Nuzul al-Quran, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu'aym narrated on the authority

The Quran is clear on that without the Prophet (saw) saying that Imam Ali (as) was to be his successor, Islam would not be complete. 

Which of you, then, will help me in this, and be my brother, mine executor and my successor amongst you?’ All remained silent, except for the youthful ʿAlī who spoke up: ‘O Prophet of God, I will be thy helper in this.’ The Prophet then placed his hand on ʿAlī’s neck and said, ‘This is my brother, mine executor and my successor amongst you. Hearken unto him and obey him.’

(Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, tr. A Guilaume, The Life of Muhammad, 118)

Three things were revealed to me regarding ʿAlī: he is the leader of the Muslims, the guide of the pious and chief of the radiantly devout (sayyidu’l-muslimīn, imāmu’l-muttaqīn, wa qāʾidu’l-ghurra’lmuḥajjalīn).

Prophet Muhammad,
(al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, Al-Mustadrak ‘ala’l-Sahihayn, Beirut 2002, 936, No. 4723)

[To ‘Ali]: Are you not happy that you should have in relation to me the rank of Aaron in relation to Moses, except that there is no prophet after me.

Prophet Muhammad,
(Ahmad b. Shu‘ayb al-Nasa’i, Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali b. Abi Talib, Tehran 1998, 76)

 

We also has ayahs of the Quran where in sunni tafsir they are agreed upon that this was revealed about Imam Ali (as), for example:

Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who eshtablish prayer and give charity while they bow. And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious. (Qur’an 5:55-56)

This verse is clearly referring to Imam Ali (as), as he once gave his ring to a beggar while he was bowing down in prayer. Sunni references:

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad al-Tha’labi, under Verse 5:55

(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp 186,288-289

(3) Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Qur’an, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219

(4) Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68

(5) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 293-294

(6) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, v1, pp 505,649

(7) Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, Egypt 1382, v1, p73 on the authority of Ibn Abbas

(8) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

(9) Sharh al-Tjrid, by Allama Qushji

(10) Ahkam al-Qur’an, al-Jassas, v2, pp 542-543

(11) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p38

(12) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p391, Tradition #5991

(13) al-Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yasir

(14) Ibn Mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

“O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you.” (Qur’an, Surah Nisa 4:59)

This verse refers to the 'Ulil Amr', meaning those in authority. And who are they? They are the twelve Imams and there is a hadith in Musnad of Ahmad ibn Hanbal which confirms this:

Abdullah ibn Masud narrates: I heard Rasulallah (saw) say: there will be 12 caliphs after me, like the 12 nuqaba' (chiefs) of the Children of Israel. 

The 12 chiefs he is referring to are mentioned in the following verse in the Quran:

(5:12) And, indeed, God took a solemn pledge from the Children of Israel and raised up from among them twelve leaders and representatives (one from each tribe, to look after their affairs and as spiritual mentors).

The twelve Imams are therefore the Ulil Amr, as well as the 12 caliphs that Rasulallah (saw) mentions, since he even described them as one of the two caliphs he is leaving behind:

Zaid Ibn Thabit narrated from the Messenger of Allah (P): “Surely, I leave behind two Caliphs for you: the Book of Allah, a linked rope between heaven and earth, and my noble family, and truly these two will not be separated until they return to me at the Pool (of Kauthar).” (Kanzul-Ummal, vol. 1, p.44).

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1 hour ago, Nadia. said:

There are numerous additions where he says this exact thing, if you want to look for them then do it, but that would not suit your views. I included those ahadith that were relevant to the topic asked. If tawassul is so haram then why are both the sunni and shia schools of thought agreeing upon it? Also, it is not sufficient with loving Ahlulbayt and this is very clear. There is the event of Ghadeer to read about. 

Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over

the believers than what they have over themselves?" People cried and

answered: "Yes, O' Messenger of God." Then Prophet (pbuh) held up the

hand of Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his

leader (Mawla). O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to

those who are hostile to him."

Here again its about loving them, respecting them and taking care of them. Majority of sunnis are doing this. Nawasib are very few with respect to total 90% of sunni population. There is no dispute between shias and sunnis with regrads to loving ahlebayt. Ghadir has nothing to do with leadership or caliphate that's why Imam ALi a.s never used this as an argument againnt first three caliphs. Ghadir is missing in entire nahjul balagha.

I did not say tawassul is haram. But there are certain types which are aganst the Quran and Sunnah. And if you want to know the best mean to get nearer to Allah or the best from of tawassul then read sermon 110 of nahjul balagha. The type you are defending is not even mentioned there. Read the sermon and follow Imam ALi in true sense.

ALso have a look at this.

 

2 hours ago, Nadia. said:

Revelation of Verse 5:3

Immediately after the Prophet (PBUH&HF) finished his speech, the following

verse of Holy Quran was revealed:

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon

you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Quran 5:3)

Some of Sunni references which mentioned the revelation of the above

verse of Quran in Ghadir Khum after the speech of the Prophet:

Those sunni references do mention this but just to point out that others believe in this. And then also metion the correct belief. In order to refute anything we first have to mention that. Likewise in order to declare any hadith as weak you first have mention that. Its like quoting others. Just like I have quoted you.

Same goes for following ayah.

2 hours ago, Nadia. said:

Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who eshtablish prayer and give charity while they bow. And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious. (Qur’an 5:55-56)

This verse is clearly referring to Imam Ali (as), as he once gave his ring to a beggar while he was bowing down in prayer. Sunni references:

This verse clearly refer to Imam Ali a.s? How? Name is not mentioned in the verse. Without narrations how is it clear? And the narrations can also be weak.

 

2 hours ago, Nadia. said:

“O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you.” (Qur’an, Surah Nisa 4:59)

This verse refers to the 'Ulil Amr', meaning those in authority. And who are they? They are the twelve Imams and there is a hadith in Musnad of Ahmad ibn Hanbal which confirms this:

Abdullah ibn Masud narrates: I heard Rasulallah (saw) say: there will be 12 caliphs after me, like the 12 nuqaba' (chiefs) of the Children of Israel. 

The 12 chiefs he is referring to are mentioned in the following verse in the Quran:

(5:12) And, indeed, God took a solemn pledge from the Children of Israel and raised up from among them twelve leaders and representatives (one from each tribe, to look after their affairs and as spiritual mentors).

The twelve Imams are therefore the Ulil Amr, as well as the 12 caliphs that Rasulallah (saw) mentions, since he even described them as one of the two caliphs he is leaving behind:

Zaid Ibn Thabit narrated from the Messenger of Allah (P): “Surely, I leave behind two Caliphs for you: the Book of Allah, a linked rope between heaven and earth, and my noble family, and truly these two will not be separated until they return to me at the Pool (of Kauthar).” (Kanzul-Ummal, vol. 1, p.44).

And those in authority are those who never got authority except Imam Ali a.s (4rth caliph) and Imam Hassan a.s (5th caliph). Also hadith of 12 caliphs do not say follow them. It just mention there will be 12 caliphs. Its like a prophecy. It also dont say there will be only 12 caliphs. History shows hundreds of caliphs came.

 

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1 hour ago, kirtc said:

why do you keep quoting me? what do you want?

Just an answer.

You said:

On 6/8/2017 at 11:50 PM, kirtc said:

sahih bukhari is the most corrupt book of hadith, shias dont follow it. Isis do

Because of following:

On 6/8/2017 at 11:30 PM, Tryingtolearn said:

Sahih Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " 

Sahih Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Sahih Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

 

Ayatullah sistani is also saying the same to whom you claim to follow.

On 6/9/2017 at 6:01 PM, Ya Allah Madad said:

Ayatullah Sistani's view on punishment of apostasy http://www.sistani.org/arabic/qa/0279/

 

Now what's your opinion on him?

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I am not here to debate with you, the thread starter asked a question and I answered with clear proof. It is up to you if you take it to you or not, you are clearly ignoring very blatant proofs and coming up with your own interpretations. I would also suggest that you read about 'the calamity of thursday'. + uour argument about Ghadeer not being about leadership is not backed up all. Do you not see the line where it says 'whoever I am the leader of Ali is his leader'. I end the discussion here because you can't provide proof that what I am saying is wrong other than illogical statements that go against the teachings of Rasulallah (saw) in your own books. Ma assalama. And you can't claim to love ahlulbayt (as) while also loving their enemies.

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13 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Just an answer.

You said:

Because of following:

 

Ayatullah sistani is also saying the same to whom you claim to follow.

 

Now what's your opinion on him?

I dont follow sistani.. I just noticed op only quoted bukhari and since he is a new muslim I had to tell him about bukhari that's it.

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6 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Prophet did not say to follow Ali a.s after me. If this would have been the case then prophet should have said O God, love whoever follows him and be the enemy of the ones who dont follow him. But rather he said O God, love whoever loves him and be the enemy of his enemy.'" 

The core sentence of this hadith and the answer to the main question is the Quranic verse the believerse were asked about:

Am I not more worthier of believers than themselves? And they replied: Yes, you are worthier than ourselves.

It is refering to the following verse:

The Prophet is more worthy of the believers than themselves, and his wives are [in the position of] their mothers. And those of [blood] relationship are more entitled [to inheritance] in the decree of Allah than the [other] believers and the emigrants, except that you may do to your close associates a kindness [through bequest]. That was in the Book inscribed.

Quran 33:6 Translation: Saheeh International

Now let's see what the famous sunni Tafsir Ibn Kathir tells us about this verse:

 

Quote

 

Allah tells us how His Messenger is merciful and sincere towards his Ummah, and how he is closer to them than they are to themselves. His judgement or ruling takes precedence over their own choices for themselves, as Allah says:

﴿فَلاَ وَرَبِّكَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّى يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لاَ يَجِدُواْ فِى أَنفُسِهِمْ حَرَجاً مِّمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُواْ تَسْلِيماً ﴾

(But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept with full submission.) (4:65)

 


It is clear that the verse is about authority in the first place and not love friendship or whatever.

There is nothing in the narration that give the word "mawla" another meaning, like when we say:

" I am your master, and this Ali is your master who you should love"

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1871&Itemid=89

Edited by Faruk

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1 hour ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Here again its about loving them, respecting them and taking care of them. Majority of sunnis are doing this. Nawasib are very few with respect to total 90% of sunni population.

The problem starts with venerating people like Muawiya, Yazid and their likes and accepting them as caliphs.

And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped. Quran 28:41

 

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3 hours ago, kirtc said:

I dont follow sistani.. I just noticed op only quoted bukhari and since he is a new muslim I had to tell him about bukhari that's it.

You also dont follow bukhari but you gave your opinion since OP quoted bukhari. Likewise I quoted Sistani who is also saying the same thing. Do I consider the same for him as well?

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1 minute ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

You also dont follow bukhari but you gave your opinion since OP quoted bukhari. Likewise I quoted Sistani who is also saying the same thing. Do I consider the same for him as well?

Yea, and I learned a lesson to not give my opinion on matters I dont have knowledge about. But I do know that bukhari is a corrupt book, and that OP should never reference it. Now please stop bothering me. There is no point in you arguing me, nowhere did I mention anything about Syd Sistani nor apostasty. Go argue with other people.

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3 hours ago, Nadia. said:

I am not here to debate with you, the thread starter asked a question and I answered with clear proof. It is up to you if you take it to you or not, you are clearly ignoring very blatant proofs and coming up with your own interpretations. I would also suggest that you read about 'the calamity of thursday'. + uour argument about Ghadeer not being about leadership is not backed up all. Do you not see the line where it says 'whoever I am the leader of Ali is his leader'. I end the discussion here because you can't provide proof that what I am saying is wrong other than illogical statements that go against the teachings of Rasulallah (saw) in your own books. Ma assalama. And you can't claim to love ahlulbayt (as) while also loving their enemies.

I also dont want to debate. I just saw your post with very lame arguments so I gave my response. Specially on the tawassul part. To which your did not reply back. As for your other points are concerned I raised very logical objections, to which you also did not answer. WHat you have done so far is only copy paste. I can also do the same. But seriously I dont want to debate on such topics.

Ghadeer has nothing to do with leadership. Check nahjul balagha. Imam ALi a.s never used this as an argument to prove his right. Word mawla has several meanings. So such statement is ambiguos. Its not clear muhkam one.

 

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2 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

I also dont want to debate. I just saw your post with very lame arguments so I gave my response. Specially on the tawassul part. To which your did not reply back. As for your other points are concerned I raised very logical objections, to which you also did not answer. WHat you have done so far is only copy paste. I can also do the same. But seriously I dont want to debate on such topics.

Ghadeer has nothing to do with leadership. Check nahjul balagha. Imam ALi a.s never used this as an argument to prove his right. Word mawla has several meanings. So such statement is ambiguos. Its not clear muhkam one.

 

dude, you have the wrong guy... I only posted one post. saying bukhari is not reliable... I didnt post anything else.

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2 hours ago, Faruk said:

The core sentence of this hadith and the answer to the main question is the Quranic verse the believerse were asked about:

Am I not more worthier of believers than themselves? And they replied: Yes, you are worthier than ourselves.

It is refering to the following verse:

The Prophet is more worthy of the believers than themselves, and his wives are [in the position of] their mothers. And those of [blood] relationship are more entitled [to inheritance] in the decree of Allah than the [other] believers and the emigrants, except that you may do to your close associates a kindness [through bequest]. That was in the Book inscribed.

Quran 33:6 Translation: Saheeh International

Now let's see what the famous sunni Tafsir Ibn Kathir tells us about this verse:

 


It is clear that the verse is about authority in the first place and not love friendship or whatever.

There is nothing in the narration that give the word "mawla" another meaning, like when we say:

" I am your master, and this Ali is your master who you should love"

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1871&Itemid=89

This verse is about close loving relationships. Read the entire verse.

Here is the full part from Tafsir ibn Kathir.

Quote
Loyalty to the Prophet ; and his wives are Mothers of the Believers Print E-mail
 

Allah tells us how His Messenger is merciful and sincere towards his Ummah, and how he is closer to them than they are to themselves. His judgement or ruling takes precedence over their own choices for themselves, as Allah says:

﴿فَلاَ وَرَبِّكَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّى يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لاَ يَجِدُواْ فِى أَنفُسِهِمْ حَرَجاً مِّمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُواْ تَسْلِيماً ﴾

(But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept with full submission.) (4:65) In the Sahih it says:

«وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَا يُؤْمِنُ أَحَدُكُمْ حَتَّى أَكُونَ أَحَبَّ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ نَفْسِهِ وَمَالِهِ وَوَلَدِهِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِين»

(By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, none of you truly believes until I am dearer to him than his own self, his wealth, his children and all the people.) It was also reported in the Sahih that `Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, said: "O Messenger of Allah, by Allah, you are dearer to me than everything except myself.'' He said,

«لَا، يَا عُمَرُ حَتَّى أَكُونَ أَحَبَّ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ نَفْسِك»

(No, O `Umar, not until I am dearer to you than yourself.) `Umar said: "O Messenger of Allah, by Allah, now you are dearer to me than everything, even myself.'' He said,

«الْآنَ يَاعُمَر»

(Now, O `Umar ﴿you have got it right﴾.) Allah says in this Ayah:

﴿النَّبِىُّ أَوْلَى بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ﴾

(The Prophet is closer to the believers than themselves,) Concerning this Ayah, Al-Bukhari narrated from Abu Hurayrah, may Allah be pleased with him, that the Prophet said:

«مَا مِنْ مُؤْمِنٍ إِلَّا وَأَنَا أَوْلَى النَّاسِ بِهِ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ، اقْرَؤُوا إِنْ شِئْتُمْ:

﴿النَّبِىُّ أَوْلَى بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ﴾

(There is no believer except I am the closest of all people to him in this world and in the Hereafter. Recite, if you wish: (The Prophet is closer to the believers than themselves.)

Same goes for Imam Ali a.s i.e he should also be the dearer and most loved person for all believers. Its all about love and hatred of ahlebayt esp of Imam Ali a.s.

Remember the famous quote of Imam Shafai where he said "If love for Muhammads ‘aal’ (family) is Rafdh (heresy). Then Jinn and Men bear witness I am a Rafidhi (heretic)."

That's why prophet said اللّهُمَّ وَالِ مَنْ وَالاهُ وَعَادِ مَنْ عادَاهُ which explains in which sense he used the word mawla. Its love and enemity.

If it was about leadership then Imam ALi a.s was leader of muslims only till his shahadah 40AH. After that he was not leader/Imam as per imamate concept. And today the leader or Imam of shias is the 12th Imam not Imam Ali a.s. As every Imam is only the Imam of people of his time.

On other hand in meaning of loving and making him dearer to our ownselves then this meaning is applicable till qiyamah. And there is no dispute on this between shias and sunnis.

 

2 hours ago, Faruk said:

The problem starts with venerating people like Muawiya, Yazid and their likes and accepting them as caliphs.

And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped. Quran 28:41

 

They were caliphs. No one can deny that. But they were not rightly guided caliphs. There are many ahadith where prophet saww said there will be both good and bad caliphs after me.

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32 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Ghadeer has nothing to do with leadership. Check nahjul balagha. Imam ALi a.s never used this as an argument to prove his right. Word mawla has several meanings. So such statement is ambiguos. Its not clear muhkam one.

It's not about Najhul Balagha, nor the ijma of the sahaba. It's about the words of the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. himself and their is noone and nothing in the world who can change that.

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30 minutes ago, kirtc said:
34 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

I also dont want to debate. I just saw your post with very lame arguments so I gave my response. Specially on the tawassul part. To which your did not reply back. As for your other points are concerned I raised very logical objections, to which you also did not answer. WHat you have done so far is only copy paste. I can also do the same. But seriously I dont want to debate on such topics.

Ghadeer has nothing to do with leadership. Check nahjul balagha. Imam ALi a.s never used this as an argument to prove his right. Word mawla has several meanings. So such statement is ambiguos. Its not clear muhkam one.

 

dude, you have the wrong guy... I only posted one post. saying bukhari is not reliable... I didnt post anything else.

And this wasnt about you brother.

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Just now, Faruk said:

It's not about Najhul Balagha, nor the ijma of the sahaba. It's about the words of the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. himself and their is noone and nothing in the world who can change that.

Yes exactly. Nahjul Balagha and ijma of sahabah clearly shows how they understood the ghadir. None of them considered it as an argument for leadership of Imam Ali a.s.

I just gave my opnion. I know you and other will never agree to it nor I will agree on your understanding. Everyone has their own reasons, logics and proofs.

And I dont want to discuss them. There is already enough on such topics on this forum.

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