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2 minutes ago, Bukhari8k said:

some nasibi might say here that Ali (ra) did not trust Prophet's decision and did not show complete faith when he asked "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?"

:) They never take the support of this tradition. The hadith itself is very clear in its meaning & message as well.

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On 5/29/2017 at 11:56 PM, Salsabeel said:

Many people had serious doubts but returned to their original faith. Some of them persisted in their doubt. Ibn Maghazili Shafi'i, in his Manaqib, and Hafiz Abu  Abdullah Muhammad Bin Abi Nasr Hamidi in his Jam Bainu's-Sahihain-e-Bukhari, and Muslim write: "Umar Bin Khattab said, 'I never doubted the prophethood of Muhammad as I did on the day of Hudaibiyya.'" This statement shows that he doubted Muhammad's prophethood more than once and his doubt at the day of Hudaybiyyah was even deeper.

 

Such words are not in Bukhari or Muslim or in any of sihha sitta books. You can verify here https://www.sunnah.com/.

 

As for the following statement is concerned:

On 5/29/2017 at 11:56 PM, Salsabeel said:

Al-Bukhari reported in volume 3, in "The Chapter on the Conditions on War and Making Treaties with those who Wage Wars", in "The Book of Conditions", after reporting the episode of the treaty of al- Hudaybiyya and 'Umar b. al-Khattab's opposition to what the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.) had agreed to, he doubted him, saying to him openly: "Aren't you really the Prophet of Allah"?.. to the end of the story... Al-Bukhari said: "When they finished the matter of writing down the terms [of the treaty], the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.) said to his companions: 'Arise and sacrifice the animals and then shave your heads'. He said: 'By Allah! Not a man stood up from them, even after he repeated himself three times. Yet no one amongst them rose. He went to Umm Salama and related to her what he had encountered from the people'" (Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 3, p. 182)

 

Volume 3, Book 50, Number 891:

…Umar bin Al-Khattab said, "I went to the Prophet and said, 'Aren't you truly the Apostle of Allah?' The Prophet said, 'Yes, indeed.' I said, 'Isn't our Cause just and the cause of the enemy unjust?' He said, 'Yes.' I said, 'Then why should we be humble in our religion?' He said, 'I am Allah's Apostle and I do not disobey Him, and He will make me victorious.' I said, 'Didn't you tell us that we would go to the Ka'ba and perform Tawaf around it?' He said, 'Yes, but did I tell you that we would visit the Ka'ba this year?' I said, 'No.' He said, 'So you will visit it and perform Tawaf around it?' " Umar further said, "I went to Abu Bakr and said, 'O Abu Bakr! Isn't he truly Allah's Prophet?' He replied, 'Yes.' I said, 'Then why should we be humble in our religion?' He said, 'Indeed, he is Allah's Apostle and he does not disobey his Lord, and He will make him victorious. Adhere to him as, by Allah, he is on the right.' I said, 'Was he not telling us that we would go to the Kaba and perform Tawaf around it?' He said, 'Yes, but did he tell you that you would go to the Ka'ba this year?' I said, 'No.' He said, "You will go to Ka'ba and perform Tawaf around it." (Az-Zuhri said, " 'Umar said, 'I performed many good deeds as expiation for the improper questions I asked them.

 

Lets improve our grammer. https://www.englishgrammar.org/negative-questions/

Quote

Negative questions

November 24, 2010 - pdf

Contracted and uncontracted negative questions have different word order. Uncontracted negative questions are usually used in a formal style.

  • Aren’t you coming? (Contracted – auxiliary verb + n’t + subject)
  • Doesn’t he understand? (Auxiliary verb + n’t + subject)
  • Are you not coming? (Uncontracted – auxiliary verb + subject + not)
  • Does he not understand? (Auxiliary verb + subject + not)

Two meanings

A negative question can have two different kinds of meanings. It can, for example, be used to ask for confirmation of something you believe to be true.

  • Didn’t you see Ann yesterday? How is she doing? (= I believe that you saw Ann yesterday.)

You may also express your opinions in a more polite way by changing them into negative questions.

  • Wouldn’t it be nice to paint that wall green? (More polite than ‘It would be nice to paint that wall green.’)

A negative question can also be used to ask for confirmation of a negative belief. In this case the speaker is surprised that something has not happened or is not happening.

  • Hasn’t the postman come yet?

Polite requests, offers, complaints etc

Pressing offers and invitations often assume the form of negative questions. They usually begin Won’t you…? Wouldn’t you…? or Why don’t you…?

  • Wouldn’t you like something to drink?
  • Why don’t you come and spend the evening with us?

In other cases we do not normally use a negative question to ask people to do things.

  • Can you help me with my homework? (Ordinary question used as a request.)

 

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Now let me tell you who had serious doubts.

On 5/29/2017 at 11:56 PM, Salsabeel said:

Many people had serious doubts but returned to their original faith.

 

علي بن الحكم، عن سيف بن عميرة، عن أبي بكر الحضرمي، قال: أبو جعفر عليه السلام ارتد الناس: الا ثلاثة نفر سلمان وأبو ذر والمقداد قال: قلت فعمار ؟ قال: قد كان جاض جيضة ثم رجع، ثم قال: ان اردت الذي لم يشك ولم يدخله شئ فالمقداد، فأما سلمان فانه عرض في قلبه عارض ان عند امير المؤمنين عليه السلام اسم الله الاعظم لو تكلم به لاخذتهم الارض وهو هكذا، فلبب ووجئت عنقه حتى تركت كالسلقة، فمر به أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام فقال له يا أبا عبد الله هذا من ذاك بايع، فبايع، وأما أبو ذر فأمره أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام بالسكوت ولم يكن ياخذه في الله لومة لا ئم فأبي الا أن يتكلم فمر به عثمان فأمر به، ثم أناب الناس بعد فكان أول من أناب أبو سنان الانصاري وأبو عمرة وشتيرة وكانوا سبعة، فلم يكن يعرف حق أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام الا هولاء السبعة

Abu bakr hizrmi narrates from Abu Jafar that all except three apostated (after the death of the Prophet peace be upon him). They are Salman, Abu Dharr, and Miqdad. I said “and Ammar?”  He said “he also, but later he came back” Then he said “If you want to see the one who never doubted at all, than he is Miqdad. Salman thought that Amir ul Momineen has Ism-e-Azam , if he recites it, earth will engulf these people (than why is he not reciting it? He meant the people who were making Abu Bakr the caliph). He was thinking so that his throat was held, and became such as if its skin had been torn away. Amir ul Momineen went towards him and said “O Abu Abdullah, this is the punishment for thinking like that. Pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr” So he pledged allegiance to him. And about Abu Dharr, Amir ul momineen told him to keep silent, but he never cared for anyone in such matters. So Uthman ordered that he be beaten up. Then some people repented, the first of whom was Abu Sasan Ansari, Abu Asra and Shatira. So no one realized the haq of Amir ul Momineen except these seven.

Rijal Kashi p. 11, Bihar al Anwar 22/440

Miqdad was the one who never doubted at all. It means rest all of them had doubts including Salman Farsi, Abu Dhar, Ammar etc.

Here are some more reports.

وعن أبي بصير قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله رضي الله عنه يقول: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: يا سلمان ، لو عرض علمك على مقداد لكفر ، يا مقداد لو عرض علمك على سلمان لكفر

Abu Basir narrates that I heard Imam Jafar Sadiq saying “The Prophet (s) said “O Salman, if what you know is presented to Miqdad ,than he will become unbeliever, and O Miqdad, “If what you know is presented to Salman, than he will become unbeliever” Rijal Kashi

عن عمران بن موسى ، عن هارون بن مسلم ، عن مسعدة بن صدقة ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال : ذكرت التقية يوما عند علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام فقال : والله لو علم أبو ذر ما في قلب سلمان لقتله

Imam Jafar Sadiq said that Taqiya was mentioned in front of Ali bin Hussain, he said “By God, if Abu Dharr knew what is present in the heart of Salman, he would have killed him” Usul Kafi 1/401

 

Now will you please start new threads on these subjects/doubts/killings of each other etc and will show some justice. Is'nt adal (justice) a pillar of shia faith. This is called a negative question used to ask for confirmation of something you already believe. i.e I already believe that adal (justice) is a pillar of shia faith. Now recall hudaibiyyah and words of caliph umar.

14 hours ago, Bukhari8k said:

We are talking about questioning the logic behind prophet's certain decisions... some nasibi might say here that Ali (ra) did not trust Prophet's decision and did not show complete faith when he asked "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?"

MoazAllah... what we believe is that Ali (ra) only complained as he wanted to accompany Rasool Allah (saw). So when a certain compromises were made by Prophet (saw) hudabiyah Umar complained that despite being Allah's prophet on whose side is Allah Al-Mighty... why should you compromise with the polytheists?

 

Edited by Ya Allah Madad
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52 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Lets improve our grammer

 

52 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:
Quote

Two meanings

A negative question can have two different kinds of meanings. It can, for example, be used to ask for confirmation of something you believe to be true.

  • Didn’t you see Ann yesterday? How is she doing? (= I believe that you saw Ann yesterday.)

You may also express your opinions in a more polite way by changing them into negative questions.

  • Wouldn’t it be nice to paint that wall green? (More polite than ‘It would be nice to paint that wall green.’)

A negative question can also be used to ask for confirmation of a negative belief. In this case the speaker is surprised that something has not happened or is not happening.

  • Hasn’t the postman come yet?

Polite requests, offers, complaints etc

Pressing offers and invitations often assume the form of negative questions. They usually begin Won’t you…? Wouldn’t you…? or Why don’t you…?

  • Wouldn’t you like something to drink?
  • Why don’t you come and spend the evening with us?

In other cases we do not normally use a negative question to ask people to do things.

  • Can you help me with my homework? (Ordinary question used as a request.)

 

:) If person's intentions are pure, and he just ask questions (whether negative or positive), he does not feel guilt in his heart because he is aware of his intentions. Lets now see the words of Umar (as mentioned in the Bukhari)

On ‎29‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 11:56 PM, Salsabeel said:

'Umar said, 'I performed many good deeds as expiation for the improper questions I asked them.

He was well aware of the fact that he has exposed his doubts on the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
 

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47 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

علي بن الحكم، عن سيف بن عميرة، عن أبي بكر الحضرمي، قال: أبو جعفر عليه السلام ارتد الناس: الا ثلاثة نفر سلمان وأبو ذر والمقداد قال: قلت فعمار ؟ قال: قد كان جاض جيضة ثم رجع، ثم قال: ان اردت الذي لم يشك ولم يدخله شئ فالمقداد، فأما سلمان فانه عرض في قلبه عارض ان عند امير المؤمنين عليه السلام اسم الله الاعظم لو تكلم به لاخذتهم الارض وهو هكذا، فلبب ووجئت عنقه حتى تركت كالسلقة، فمر به أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام فقال له يا أبا عبد الله هذا من ذاك بايع، فبايع، وأما أبو ذر فأمره أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام بالسكوت ولم يكن ياخذه في الله لومة لا ئم فأبي الا أن يتكلم فمر به عثمان فأمر به، ثم أناب الناس بعد فكان أول من أناب أبو سنان الانصاري وأبو عمرة وشتيرة وكانوا سبعة، فلم يكن يعرف حق أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام الا هولاء السبعة

Abu bakr hizrmi narrates from Abu Jafar that all except three apostated (after the death of the Prophet peace be upon him). They are Salman, Abu Dharr, and Miqdad. I said “and Ammar?”  He said “he also, but later he came back” Then he said “If you want to see the one who never doubted at all, than he is Miqdad. Salman thought that Amir ul Momineen has Ism-e-Azam , if he recites it, earth will engulf these people (than why is he not reciting it? He meant the people who were making Abu Bakr the caliph). He was thinking so that his throat was held, and became such as if its skin had been torn away. Amir ul Momineen went towards him and said “O Abu Abdullah, this is the punishment for thinking like that. Pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr” So he pledged allegiance to him. And about Abu Dharr, Amir ul momineen told him to keep silent, but he never cared for anyone in such matters. So Uthman ordered that he be beaten up. Then some people repented, the first of whom was Abu Sasan Ansari, Abu Asra and Shatira. So no one realized the haq of Amir ul Momineen except these seven.

Rijal Kashi p. 11, Bihar al Anwar 22/440

Miqdad was the one who never doubted at all. It means rest all of them had doubts including Salman Farsi, Abu Dhar, Ammar etc.

@Qa'im, brother, please confirm & cite the asnad of this hadith.
 

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15 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

 

:) If person's intentions are pure, and he just ask questions (whether negative or positive), he does not feel guilt in his heart because he is aware of his intentions. Lets now see the words of Umar (as mentioned in the Bukhari)

He was well aware of the fact that he has exposed his doubts on the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
 

He felt this out of his respect and love for Prophet saww that how he dared to ask so much questions.

And this is how Prophet saww greeted him soon after the event.

Narrated Malik bin Anas:
from Zaid bin Aslam, from his father who said: "I heard 'Umar bin Al-Khattab [may Allah be pleased with him] saying: 'We were with the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) during one of his journeys when I said something to him but he was silent. Then I said something again but he was silent. I quickened my pace of mount to go to the other wise. I said: "May your mother lose you O Ibn Al-Khattab! You pestered the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) three times, each time he did not reply to you! You deserve that something be revealed about you in the Qur'an.'" He ('Umar) said: "It was not long before I heard a voice calling me.' So I came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and he said: "O Ibn Al-Khattab! A Surah was revealed to me last night which is dearer to me than what the sun rises upon: Verily, We have given you a manifest victory (48:1).'" https://www.sunnah.com/urn/642980
 
Now, I think, its time for you to clear your doubts and have a good hatred free life.
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12 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

He felt this out of his respect and love for Prophet saww that how he dared to ask so much questions.

:D 

Asking question was never a problem. Prophet came here to answer questions, to teach knowledge & hikmah. It was Umer's doubts which got exposed & he felt the guilt of that throughout his life.

Edited by Salsabeel
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On 6/8/2017 at 2:46 AM, Ya Allah Madad said:

علي بن الحكم، عن سيف بن عميرة، عن أبي بكر الحضرمي، قال: أبو جعفر عليه السلام ارتد الناس: الا ثلاثة نفر سلمان وأبو ذر والمقداد قال: قلت فعمار ؟ قال: قد كان جاض جيضة ثم رجع، ثم قال: ان اردت الذي لم يشك ولم يدخله شئ فالمقداد، فأما سلمان فانه عرض في قلبه عارض ان عند امير المؤمنين عليه السلام اسم الله الاعظم لو تكلم به لاخذتهم الارض وهو هكذا، فلبب ووجئت عنقه حتى تركت كالسلقة، فمر به أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام فقال له يا أبا عبد الله هذا من ذاك بايع، فبايع، وأما أبو ذر فأمره أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام بالسكوت ولم يكن ياخذه في الله لومة لا ئم فأبي الا أن يتكلم فمر به عثمان فأمر به، ثم أناب الناس بعد فكان أول من أناب أبو سنان الانصاري وأبو عمرة وشتيرة وكانوا سبعة، فلم يكن يعرف حق أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام الا هولاء السبعة

This hadith is present in the book Rijal Al-Kashi.

Does this hadith talking about people doubted on the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))?  Lets now see the translation you have provided:

 

On 6/8/2017 at 2:46 AM, Ya Allah Madad said:

Abu Bakr hizrmi narrates from Abu Jafar that all except three apostated (after the death of the Prophet peace be upon him). They are Salman, Abu Dharr, and Miqdad. I said “and Ammar?”  He said “he also, but later he came back” Then he said “If you want to see the one who never doubted at all, than he is Miqdad. Salman thought that Amir ul Momineen has Ism-e-Azam , if he recites it, Earth will engulf these people (than why is he not reciting it? He meant the people who were making Abu Bakr the caliph). He was thinking so that his throat was held, and became such as if its skin had been torn away. Amir ul Momineen went towards him and said “O Abu Abdullah, this is the punishment for thinking like that. Pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr” So he pledged allegiance to him. And about Abu Dharr, Amir ul momineen told him to keep silent, but he never cared for anyone in such matters. So Uthman ordered that he be beaten up. Then some people repented, the first of whom was Abu Sasan Ansari, Abu Asra and Shatira. So no one realized the haq of Amir ul Momineen except these seven.

Rijal Kashi p. 11, Bihar al Anwar 22/440

@Qa'im@skyweb1987, @Sindbad05, @Dhulfikar, @S.M.H.A.

I already made a thread, warned the nawasib not to quote ahadith from Shia books.
This time our Sunni brother has tried to defend Umar by quoting us hadith from our books to show us that everyone except three, doubted on the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allah be on him & his pure progeny). You can see now what happened.

@Ya Allah Madad, brother, I advise you to read the Arabic wordings & English translation properly before quoting anything.
 

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7 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Abu bakr hizrmi narrates from Abu Jafar that all except three apostated (after the death of the Prophet peace be upon him). They are Salman, Abu Dharr, and Miqdad. I said “and Ammar?”  He said “he also, but later he came back” Then he said “If you want to see the one who never doubted at all, than he is Miqdad. Salman thought that Amir ul Momineen has Ism-e-Azam , if he recites it, earth will engulf these people (than why is he not reciting it? He meant the people who were making Abu Bakr the caliph). He was thinking so that his throat was held, and became such as if its skin had been torn away. Amir ul Momineen went towards him and said “O Abu Abdullah, this is the punishment for thinking like that. Pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr” So he pledged allegiance to him. And about Abu Dharr, Amir ul momineen told him to keep silent, but he never cared for anyone in such matters. So Uthman ordered that he be beaten up. Then some people repented, the first of whom was Abu Sasan Ansari, Abu Asra and Shatira. So no one realized the haq of Amir ul Momineen except these seven.

Rijal Kashi p. 11, Bihar al Anwar 22/440

Firstly, I believe that this Hadith have been wrongly translated as I never myself believe Nawasib Translation because often times, they do  wrong translations deliberately, as I have seen a Nawasib like "Zakir Naik" Nauzobillah imputed prophet PBUHHP to be illiterate from another book it was "Book of Isaiah" where "an unbeliever was termed illiterate" but he showed his disbelief by equating Prophet PBUHHP with a disbeliever and there are many other Nawasib like that. 

I have read this hadith up to the part of Ammar where it is said that "later he came back"....and not further and this part is according to the history and confirms what people did after Prophet such as Snatching away Fadak and breaking away from the oath of Ghadeer and strengthening the hands of enemies of Islam such as Abu Sufiyan and Muawiya. 

Second point is that Prophet PBUHHP told Abu Dhar Ghafari that after his passing away there would come a difficult time for him and he would be forced to a desert area where a group of people will come and recite Nima-e-Janaza and all of those who will recite will be Momineen. 

So, the following hadith is saying against what Ya Allah Madad posted because before Prophet action of Hazrat Abu Dhar Ghafari is of a Momin means not keeping silent. 

Secondly, the hadith says that Imam Ali a.s said to Salaman-e-Farsi to pay allegiance to Abu Bakar while In Quran there is a verse which says: "Do not follow a sinner or an ungrateful person", you are imputing that imam Ali a.s ordered Salaman to pay allegiance to Abu Bakar who was not a successor to Prophet while we never witness that Salaman was given any responsibility in the Caliphate of either of three Caliphs, 

the parts which you posted are extremely dubious and contradict other Hadith and events in history contradict later parts of Hadith.

 

Edited by Sindbad05
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2 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

So, the following hadith is saying against what Ya Allah Madad posted because before Prophet action of Hazrat Abu Dhar Ghafari is of a Momin means not keeping silent. 

the parts which you posted are extremely dubious and contradict other Hadith and events in history contradict later parts of Hadith.

Hayat Al-Qulub Vol. 1,
By: Allamah Muhammad Baqir Al-Majlisi

It is narrated from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) through authentic chains of narrators that when the Almighty Allah revealed the following verse:

 قُلْ لَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبٰى 

Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives…”[568]
… the Holy Prophet (S) arose and said: “O people, the Almighty Allah has made a duty incumbent on you with regard to me. Will you fulfill it?” No one replied. The Prophet returned without any assurance. The Messenger of Allah (S) again came to his companions the next day and asked the same question but again he did not receive any response. On the third day the Messenger of Allah (S) repeated the same question.
When no one responded, the Holy Prophet (S) said: “O people, whatever the Almighty Allah has made incumbent on you with regard to me is not from gold, silver or any edible item.” Then the people said: Then tell us what it is?” The Holy Prophet (S) said: “The Almighty Allah has revealed this verse and has made love of my Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) as the recompense of my prophethood.” Then the people said: “We accept.” After that Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said: “By Allah, this promise was not fulfilled by anyone except the following seven persons: Salman, Abu Zar, Ammar, Miqdad, Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari, freed slave of the Prophet, known as Thabeet and Zaid bin Arqam (r.a.).”

Ali bin Ibrahim has narrated through authentic chains of narrators from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that:
 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ كَانَتْ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتُ الْفِرْدَوْسِ نُزُلًا 

“Surely (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, their place of entertainment shall be the gardens of Paradise.”[569]
This verse revealed in praise of Abu Zar, Miqdad, Salman and Ammar (r.a.) and the Almighty Allah has fixed Jannatul Firdos as their final abode.
Edited by skyweb1987
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On ‎7‎-‎6‎-‎2017 at 3:54 PM, Bukhari8k said:

OP begins his argument with words attributed to the second caliph ('I never doubted the prophethood of Muhammad as I did on the day of Hudaibiyya.' ).... but the author of the OP still has no clue regarding the source of this particular phrase... yet he is persistent in arguing that the phrase is somehow correctly attributed to Umar. So all those narrations and explanations are insufficient to prove that Umar actually uttered the above phrase,,,

If he wasn't sure then why did Ibn Kathir used the narration?

 

 

On ‎7‎-‎6‎-‎2017 at 3:54 PM, Bukhari8k said:

if you had followed my posts then you would know that I did not use the word lesser known for tafseer ibn kathir but for works of ibn maghzili and Ibn Hamidi. So in my view, this point was raised in his post by Salsabeel likely to distract from real question.

So again. If his tafsir is authentic and authoritative then why did he put that narration in it?       

For why would a respectable third party use a narration that is not in favor of a successor of the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. and above all which source is doubtful and obscure let alone unknown?

Edited by Faruk
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On ‎7‎-‎6‎-‎2017 at 5:16 PM, Bukhari8k said:

As far as your other argument that Umar (ra) questioned Rasool Allah (saw) over certain compromises made in treaty of hudaibiya.... then it was more of a complaint than questioning as can be seen in questions that followed. Umar (ra) could not understand the logic behind certain compromises made by Rasool Allah just like Ali (ra) could not understand when prophet (saw) left him in Medinah and questioned.... rather complained to Rasool Allah (saw): Narrated Sa`d:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) set out for Tabuk. appointing `Ali as his deputy (in Medina). `Ali said, "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me.".‏

The complaint of Imam Ali a.s. was on a personal level as he a.s. wanted to fight, rather than to stay home which is natural for a true muslim mind.

He a.s. however did not object to the anwser of the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. nor did he a.s. or the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. considered it to be an improper question in contrast to the answer of Umar as is written in Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

`Umar further said, `I went to Abu Bakr and said: O Abu Bakr! Isn't he truly Allah's Prophet' He replied, `Yes.' I said, `Is not our cause just and the cause of our enemy unjust' He said, `Yes.' I said, `Then why should we be humble in our religion' He said, `O you man! Indeed, he is Allah's Messenger and he does not disobey his Lord, and He will make him victorious. Adhere to him for, by Allah, he is on the right path.' I said, `Was he not telling us that we would go to the Ka`bah and perform Tawaf around it' He said, `Yes, but did he tell you that you would go to the Ka`bah this year' I said, `No.' He said, `You will go to the Ka`bah and perform Tawaf around it.' Az-Zuhri said, "`Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, said, `I performed many good deeds as expiation for the improper questions I asked them.' ''




 

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On 6/8/2017 at 6:56 AM, Salsabeel said:

This hadith is present in the book Rijal Al-Kashi.

I already mention that as well.

On 6/8/2017 at 2:46 AM, Ya Allah Madad said:

Rijal Kashi p. 11, Bihar al Anwar 22/440

 

On 6/8/2017 at 6:56 AM, Salsabeel said:

Does this hadith talking about people doubted on the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))?  Lets now see the translation you have provided:

 

On 6/8/2017 at 2:46 AM, Ya Allah Madad said:

Abu Bakr hizrmi narrates from Abu Jafar that all except three apostated (after the death of the Prophet peace be upon him). They are Salman, Abu Dharr, and Miqdad. I said “and Ammar?”  He said “he also, but later he came back” Then he said “If you want to see the one who never doubted at all, than he is Miqdad. Salman thought that Amir ul Momineen has Ism-e-Azam , if he recites it, Earth will engulf these people (than why is he not reciting it? He meant the people who were making Abu Bakr the caliph). He was thinking so that his throat was held, and became such as if its skin had been torn away. Amir ul Momineen went towards him and said “O Abu Abdullah, this is the punishment for thinking like that. Pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr” So he pledged allegiance to him. And about Abu Dharr, Amir ul momineen told him to keep silent, but he never cared for anyone in such matters. So Uthman ordered that he be beaten up. Then some people repented, the first of whom was Abu Sasan Ansari, Abu Asra and Shatira. So no one realized the haq of Amir ul Momineen except these seven.

Rijal Kashi p. 11, Bihar al Anwar 22/440

@Qa'im,  @skyweb1987, @Sindbad05, @Dhulfikar, @S.M.H.A.

I already made a thread, warned the nawasib not to quote ahadith from Shia books.
This time our Sunni brother has tried to defend Umar by quoting us hadith from our books to show us that everyone except three, doubted on the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allah be on him & his pure progeny). You can see now what happened.

@Ya Allah Madad, brother, I advise you to read the Arabic wordings & English translation properly before quoting anything.

I think, you should also improve your reading skills. Where did I say they doubted in prophethood.

I said this. Its about doubts in general.

On 6/8/2017 at 2:46 AM, Ya Allah Madad said:

Now let me tell you who had serious doubts.

On 5/29/2017 at 1:56 PM, Salsabeel said:

Many people had serious doubts but returned to their original faith.

 

And there are many narrations in Shia books saying any one who rejects/doubts any Imam is like he has rejected/doubted prophethood of Prophet saww. Because our 1st is Muhammad our last is Muhammad our middle is Muhammad. Remember.

Above narration say they all apostated after demise of Prophet saww except three. And miqdad was the only one who never doubted at all. Its pretty clear in meaning. And in total they were only 7 people who realized the haqq of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). And you know that punishment of apostasy is more severe than kufr.

If not then don’t waste your time in debates with opponents on this matter. And if yes it does matter then please make a new thread and put some more light on their apostasy and tell people how they returned or repented. And show some sort of justice.

 

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26 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

I already mention that as well.

 

I think, you should also improve your reading skills. Where did I say they doubted in prophethood.

I said this. Its about doubts in general.

And there are many narrations in shia books saying any one who rejects/doubts any imam is like he has rejected/doubted prophethood of Prophet saww. Because our 1st is muhammad our last is muhammad our middle is muhammad. Remember.

Above narration say they all apostated after demise of Prophet saww except three. And miqdad was the only one who never doubted at all. Its pretty clear in meaning. And in total they were only 7 people who realized the haqq of Imam Ali a.s. And you know that punishment of apostasy is more severe than kufr.

If not then dont waste your time in debates with opponents on this matter. And if yes it does matter then please make a new thread and put some more light on their apostasy and tell people how they returned or repented. And show some sort of justice.

 

Yeah you're probaly right but the main diffirence is that Miqdad nor one of the other 3 or 7 were considered to be successors of the Prophet, nor Imams.

If someone already rejected guidance during the life of the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. then how reliable will he be after his s.a.w.a.s. departure, let alone if he has to lead the Ummah??

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13 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Firstly, I believe that this Hadith have been wrongly translated as I never myself believe Nawasib Translation because often times, they do  wrong translations deliberately, as I have seen a Nawasib like "Zakir Naik" Nauzobillah imputed prophet PBUHHP to be illiterate from another book it was "Book of Isaiah" where "an unbeliever was termed illiterate" but he showed his disbelief by equating Prophet PBUHHP with a disbeliever and there are many other Nawasib like that. 

I have read this hadith up to the part of Ammar where it is said that "later he came back"....and not further and this part is according to the history and confirms what people did after Prophet such as Snatching away Fadak and breaking away from the oath of Ghadeer and strengthening the hands of enemies of Islam such as Abu Sufiyan and Muawiya. 

Second point is that Prophet PBUHHP told Abu Dhar Ghafari that after his passing away there would come a difficult time for him and he would be forced to a desert area where a group of people will come and recite Nima-e-Janaza and all of those who will recite will be Momineen. 

So, the following hadith is saying against what Ya Allah Madad posted because before Prophet action of Hazrat Abu Dhar Ghafari is of a Momin means not keeping silent. 

 

Just because you dont understand something, does not mean that its been wrongly translated or misquoted or a matter of disbelief etc. There are many examples even on this forum like Tawassul, Infallibilty, WIlayat Takwiniyah etc.

So Ammar bin Yasir was also one of them but later he came back. And shias have accepted him wholeheartedly. But not to those who came back in uhud and hunain. Is this what adal (justice) mean? Read Nisa 135 and Maida 8.

You missed these narrations. This was the condition of true and ideal companions according to shias.

21 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

 

وعن أبي بصير قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله رضي الله عنه يقول: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: يا سلمان ، لو عرض علمك على مقداد لكفر ، يا مقداد لو عرض علمك على سلمان لكفر

Abu Basir narrates that I heard Imam Jafar Sadiq saying “The Prophet (s) said “O Salman, if what you know is presented to Miqdad ,than he will become unbeliever, and O Miqdad, “If what you know is presented to Salman, than he will become unbeliever” Rijal Kashi

عن عمران بن موسى ، عن هارون بن مسلم ، عن مسعدة بن صدقة ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال : ذكرت التقية يوما عند علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام فقال : والله لو علم أبو ذر ما في قلب سلمان لقتله

Imam Jafar Sadiq said that Taqiya was mentioned in front of Ali bin Hussain, he said “By God, if Abu Dharr knew what is present in the heart of Salman, he would have killed him” Usul Kafi 1/401

 

13 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Secondly, the hadith says that Imam Ali a.s said to Salaman-e-Farsi to pay allegiance to Abu Bakar while In Quran there is a verse which says: "Do not follow a sinner or an ungrateful person", you are imputing that imam Ali a.s ordered Salaman to pay allegiance to Abu Bakar who was not a successor to Prophet while we never witness that Salaman was given any responsibility in the Caliphate of either of three Caliphs, 

 

But history and ahadith show that they followed him. This means either he was not a sinner or they opposed the Quran. Choice is yours, choose wisely. They not only paid allegiance but also followed his orders, took part in riddah and apostasy wars. Never opposed them by force. Remain loyal to them. And served as their advisors etc. And they were not under taqqiyah.

Yes, you can never witness that because they have told you and others wrong history while you are crying on wrong translations. Let me tell you how.

In June 656, Ali ibn Abi Talib(A.S.) ascended the throne of the caliphate in Medina as the successor of Muhammed Mustafa, The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and his Ahlul-Bayt). One of his first acts, upon taking charge of the government of the Muslims, was to appoint Salman el-Farsi the governor of the city and the districts of Madaen in Iraq. SOURCE, a well known shia site http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/salman.asp

It says Imam Ali a.s in 656 AD appointed Salman Farsi governor of Madain. But the truth is that he was appointed as governor by 2nd caliph i.e much before the time Imam Ali a.s became caliph in reality.

Salman helped Muslims in the Battle of Khandaq (battle of the Trench), when he recommended the idea of digging a trench around the city, which brought victory to Muslims. After Prophet Muhammad (s) had passed away he became a supporter of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and a believer in his Imama. He disagreed with the event of Saqifa. However, he cooperated with the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, and the second Caliph, 'Umar; he was also assigned as the governor of al-Mada'in in the time of the second Caliph. Nevertheless, he knitted baskets in order to provide money to cover the costs of living. After a long lifetime, Salman passed away in 36/656-7 in al-Mada'in, where he is buried. SOURCE: http://en.wikishia.net/view/Salman_al-Farsi

 

14 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

the parts which you posted are extremely dubious and contradict other Hadith and events in history contradict later parts of Hadith.

 

14 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

while we never witness that Salaman was given any responsibility in the Caliphate of either of three Caliphs, 

Events of history? And you are unaware about historical governorship of Salman Farsi in Madain. Brother contradictions and doubts are in your mind I think.

 

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11 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Hayat Al-Qulub Vol. 1,
By: Allamah Muhammad Baqir Al-Majlisi

It is narrated from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) through authentic chains of narrators that when the Almighty Allah revealed the following verse:

 قُلْ لَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبٰى 

Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives…”[568]
… the Holy Prophet (S) arose and said: “O people, the Almighty Allah has made a duty incumbent on you with regard to me. Will you fulfill it?” No one replied. The Prophet returned without any assurance. The Messenger of Allah (S) again came to his companions the next day and asked the same question but again he did not receive any response. On the third day the Messenger of Allah (S) repeated the same question.
When no one responded, the Holy Prophet (S) said: “O people, whatever the Almighty Allah has made incumbent on you with regard to me is not from gold, silver or any edible item.” Then the people said: Then tell us what it is?” The Holy Prophet (S) said: “The Almighty Allah has revealed this verse and has made love of my Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) as the recompense of my prophethood.” Then the people said: “We accept.” After that Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said: “By Allah, this promise was not fulfilled by anyone except the following seven persons: Salman, Abu Zar, Ammar, Miqdad, Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari, freed slave of the Prophet, known as Thabeet and Zaid bin Arqam (r.a.).”

Ali bin Ibrahim has narrated through authentic chains of narrators from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that:
 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ كَانَتْ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتُ الْفِرْدَوْسِ نُزُلًا 

“Surely (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, their place of entertainment shall be the gardens of Paradise.”[569]
This verse revealed in praise of Abu Zar, Miqdad, Salman and Ammar (r.a.) and the Almighty Allah has fixed Jannatul Firdos as their final abode.

And who were the adressees in that verse?

And yet they spent alot of their wealth during the battle of Tabuk.

Now a different list of seven. But not the beloved son of his beloved freed slave i.e Usama bin Zaid. And his only poet Hassan bin Thabit who also recited poetry at ghadir as per shia narrations.

Similar narrations are also there in books of ahlul sunnah for many other companions and are directly from Prophet saww, who is superior to all Imams.

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5 hours ago, Faruk said:

`Umar further said, `I went to Abu Bakr and said: O Abu Bakr! Isn't he truly Allah's Prophet' He replied, `Yes.' I said, `Is not our cause just and the cause of our enemy unjust' He said, `Yes.' I said, `Then why should we be humble in our religion' He said, `O you man! Indeed, he is Allah's Messenger and he does not disobey his Lord, and He will make him victorious. Adhere to him for, by Allah, he is on the right path.' I said, `Was he not telling us that we would go to the Ka`bah and perform Tawaf around it' He said, `Yes, but did he tell you that you would go to the Ka`bah this year' I said, `No.' He said, `You will go to the Ka`bah and perform Tawaf around it.' Az-Zuhri said, "`Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, said, `I performed many good deeds as expiation for the improper questions I asked them.' ''

He did that because Allah says He will replace bad deeds with good. And that was exactly the intention of Umar a.s. See the red line. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quran 25:70

Sahih International: Except for those who repent, believe and do righteous work. For them Allah will replace their evil deeds with good. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

Pickthall: Save him who repenteth and believeth and doth righteous work; as for such, Allah will change their evil deeds to good deeds. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

Yusuf Ali: Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful,

Shakir: Except him who repents and believes and does a good deed; so these are they of whom Allah changes the evil deeds to good ones; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Muhammad Sarwar: But only those who repent and believe and act righteously will have their sins replaced by virtue; God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.

Mohsin Khan: Except those who repent and believe (in Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds, for those, Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Arberry: save him who repents, and believes, and does righteous work -- those, God will change their evil deeds into good deeds, for God is ever All-forgiving, All-compassionate;

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58 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Yeah you're probaly right but the main diffirence is that Miqdad nor one of the other 3 or 7 were considered to be successors of the Prophet, nor Imams.

If someone already rejected guidance during the life of the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. then how reliable will he be after his s.a.w.a.s. departure, let alone if he has to lead the Ummah??

Sharia is for all, not only for those who became successors or Imams.

Who rejected guidance and when?

And Allah says in Quran:

25:70-71

Except for those who repent, believe and do righteous work. For them Allah will replace their evil deeds with good. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

And he who repents and does righteousness does indeed turn to Allah with [accepted] repentance.
 

9 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

"`Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, said, `I performed many good deeds as expiation for the improper questions I asked them.' ''

39:53

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

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1 hour ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

I already mention that as well.

But I still don't know its grading whether it is sahih or not.

1 hour ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

I think, you should also improve your reading skills. Where did I say they doubted in prophethood.

I said this. Its about doubts in general.

:) and you are comparing general doubts with doubts on prophethood.

1 hour ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

And there are many narrations in shia books saying any one who rejects/doubts any imam is like he has rejected/doubted prophethood of Prophet saw. Because our 1st is muhammad our last is muhammad our middle is muhammad. Remember.

Yes, there are. But again, if I assume that the hadith of Rijjal Al-Kashi is graded as "Sahih", It would be considered as a proof against Abu-Bakar, Umer, Uthman etc. And the word "Apostate" is more harsher than the word "Doubted".

Ammar at least came back to Imam Ali (a.s) and died in Battle of Siffen, fighting from the side of Imam Ali (a.s)

 

1 hour ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Above narration say they all apostated after demise of Prophet saww except three. And miqdad was the only one who never doubted at all. Its pretty clear in meaning. And in total they were only 7 people who realized the haqq of Imam Ali a.s. And you know that punishment of apostasy is more severe than kufr.

Yes, I am applying this to those who died in that state, usurped the right of Imam Ali (a.s), Aided each other against him.

1 hour ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

If not then dont waste your time in debates with opponents on this matter. And if yes it does matter then please make a new thread and put some more light on their apostasy and tell people how they returned or repented. And show some sort of justice

:) This hadith is proving Abu-Bakar, Umer & Uthman as apostates. And I know they all died in the state that they usurped the right of Imam Ali (a.s). I am wondering how can you protect them by bringing this argument.
 

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5 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

And yet they spent alot of their wealth during the battle of Tabuk.

Yes hypocrites tried to kill the prophet sww by  murder when he was coming back to medina from tabuk.

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On 6/8/2017 at 0:46 PM, Ya Allah Madad said:

Miqdad was the one who never doubted at all. It means rest all of them had doubts including Salman Farsi, Abu Dhar, Ammar etc.

Hayat Al-Qulub Vol. 1,
By: Allamah Muhammad Baqir Al-Majlisi

Ali bin Ibrahim has narrated through authentic chains of narrators from Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that:

 إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ كَانَتْ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتُ الْفِرْدَوْسِ نُزُلًا 

“Surely (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, their place of entertainment shall be the gardens of Paradise.”[569]
This verse revealed in praise of Abu Zar, Miqdad, Salman and Ammar (r.a.) and the Almighty Allah has fixed Jannatul Firdos as their final abode.
 
The above hadith makes your claim null  and void.
 
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6 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Just because you dont understand something, does not mean that its been wrongly translated or misquoted or a matter of disbelief etc. There are many examples even on this forum like Tawassul, Infallibilty, WIlayat Takwiniyah etc.

So Ammar bin Yasir was also one of them but later he came back. And shias have accepted him wholeheartedly. But not to those who came back in uhud and hunain. Is this what adal (justice) mean? Read Nisa 135 and Maida 8.

Firstly, there are many version of single Hadith that are included in Books. And a single Hadith is misquoted by some for their own interests and and other narrators have provided true version of Hadith which showed how previous persons misquoted it. As an illustration for you, I will put an event before you that is related to Abu Hurairah, once upon a time, a person came to Bibi Ayesha and said: "Abu Hurairah said that he heard from Prophet PBUHHP saying that horse, house and women are misfortune". Upon hearing that Bibi Ayesha said: "Abu Hurairah is a liar, because Prophet PBUHHP said that Jews say horse, house and women are misfortune". So, same hadith was misquoted by Abu Hurairah and dubbed by Bibi Ayesha as misquoted.

We do not like "Nawasib" take every word literally, but we test it with "Quran" with "Person" and with "History". So, it is true that only few remain Muslims after the demise of Prophet PBUHHP.

Allah AWJ forgave those who ran away in Uhud and Hunain but they did not mend their ways and went back on to what they were previously as soon as Prophet left. And snatching away Fadak and depriving Imam Ali a.s from position of Caliphate is one such example of their disbelief in Prophet and Ahlebait while they took oath not to be unjust towards Ahlebait a.s.

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6 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

You missed these narrations. This was the condition of true and ideal companions according to shias.

On 6/8/2017 at 0:46 PM, Ya Allah Madad said:

I did not missed any narration, you do not know what is Marifah of Allah, once you enter into it this realm, the explanation of other may appear to you as disbelief but it is truth. 

 

6 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Abu Basir narrates that I heard Imam Jafar Sadiq saying “The Prophet (s) said “O Salman, if what you know is presented to Miqdad ,than he will become unbeliever, and O Miqdad, “If what you know is presented to Salman, than he will become unbeliever” Rijal Kashi

However, the above thing which is written, I heard in these words that Imam Ali a.s said that if Salman knows what Abu Dhar says, he will not understand it and dub him disbeliever and if Abu Dhar knows what Salman says, he will also dub him disbeliever. It is because of "not understanding". 

With reference to the above, I tell you an event. Once upon a time, Huzaifa Yamani came to Umer while Imam Ali a.s was also sitting in the mosque, Umer asked Ammar: "How are you doing" ? Upon that Ammar said: "You are asking my condition while I am in a state that I dislike Haq and love Fitnah". Umer became furious and said: "What!!!!!!! what are you saying". (He was probably thinking that Huzaifa dislike Allah = Haq, and Fitnah = Kill everyone). So, Imam Ali a.s smiled as said: "He meant that he dislike death which is haq and love his children that is termed as fitnah in Quran". So, tell me what you thought about Huzaifa before Imam Ali a.s explained it. lolz. 

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@Ya Allah Madad We are not like "Nawasib" who were ignorant of "Marifah" and "inner meaning of words" and they took them literally and killed many people only on that account because those people like Mulla Sadra had deep thinking and used words which "Nawasib" were unable to understand. "Nawasib" dubbed many men of Marifah as Sufi while they were misunderstood. They did same thing to men of Marifah as West killed scientists in the name of "Witches and Magicians" while they were chemists and physicists. 

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7 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

He did that because Allah says He will replace bad deeds with good. And that was exactly the intention of Umar a.s. See the red line.

I'm glad you agree with me that he made a grave mistake unlike the other sunni brother in this thread.

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On Thursday, June 8, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Faruk said:

The complaint of Imam Ali a.s. was on a personal level as he a.s. wanted to fight, rather than to stay home which is natural for a true muslim mind.

yes, that is my point exactly that due to natural mind of a true Muslim, Ali (ra) questions or complains over Rasool Allah's (saw) decision.... same goes for those Muslims who thought that certain compromises made in treaty apparently made Muslim position weak.

On Thursday, June 8, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Faruk said:

He a.s. however did not object to the anwser of the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. nor did he a.s. or the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. considered it to be an improper question in contrast to the answer of Umar as is written in Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

what's written in tafsir ibn kathir regarding prophet (saw) considering Umar's questions as something  improper? I have not seen such a thing so far?

On Thursday, June 8, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Faruk said:

`Umar further said, `I went to Abu Bakr and said: O Abu Bakr! Isn't he truly Allah's Prophet' He replied, `Yes.' I said, `Is not our cause just and the cause of our enemy unjust' He said, `Yes.' I said, `Then why should we be humble in our religion' He said, `O you man! Indeed, he is Allah's Messenger and he does not disobey his Lord, and He will make him victorious. Adhere to him for, by Allah, he is on the right path.' I said, `Was he not telling us that we would go to the Ka`bah and perform Tawaf around it' He said, `Yes, but did he tell you that you would go to the Ka`bah this year' I said, `No.' He said, `You will go to the Ka`bah and perform Tawaf around it.' Az-Zuhri said, "`Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, said, `I performed many good deeds as expiation for the improper questions I asked them.' '' 

 It is a well known fact that Umar (ra) was not very eloquent when it came to delivering speeches or dialogues under emotional circumstances more so in the beginning of his role as a Muslim in Islam. He was not a masoom, he could make mistakes and wanted expiation for something he considered improper even though out of good intentions...

Umar said, `Then why should we be humble in our religion'... this shows his feelings towards superiority of Islam/Muslims over others....

Edited by Bukhari8k
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9 minutes ago, Bukhari8k said:

It is a well known fact that Umar (ra) was not very eloquent when it came to delivering speeches or dialogues under emotional circumstances more so in the beginning of his role as a Muslim in Islam. He was not a masoom, he could make mistakes and wanted expiation for something he considered improper even though out of good intentions...

Umar was obviously someone who needed guidance from the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. continually as he erred on a regular basis.  

So how can one who erred so much be capable to lead the Ummah?  

 

 

 

Edited by Faruk
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25 minutes ago, Bukhari8k said:

same goes for those Muslims who thought that certain compromises apparently made Muslims' position week.

According to worldy standards yes. 

But Asadullah a.s. was longing for akhira. 

You know that he a.s. was willing to sacrifice himself  a.s. pretending being the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. lying in his bed when Quraysh wanted to assssinate the latter. 

That is Ali ibn Abi Taleb a.s.

Edited by Faruk
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10 hours ago, Faruk said:

Umar was obviously someone who needed guidance from the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. continually as he erred on a regular basis.

So how can one who erred so much be capable to lead the Ummah? 

 

Every follower of the prophet (saw) need guidance from him (saw) and we are proud of that that we need Muhammad (saw) as our guide. Umar's transformation was a big one. He, as a successful ruler over a vast empire which extended immensely and successfully under his rule, himself had said that I was someone who could not roam camel herd properly and now Islam has improved me to this point (managing the affairs of a vast Islamic empire).

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10 hours ago, Faruk said:

According to worldy standards yes.

But Asadullah a.s. was longing for akhira.

You know that he a.s. was willing to sacrifice himself  a.s. pretending being the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. lying in his bed when Quraysh wanted to assssinate the latter.

That is Ali ibn Abi Taleb a.s.

Sahih al Muslim : "The latter (Marhab, the Jewish warlord) advanced chanting: Khaibar knows certainly that I am Marhab, A fully armed and well-tried valorous warrior (hero) When war comes spreading its flames.

Ali chanted in reply: I am the one whose mother named him Haidar, (And am) like a lion of the forest with a terror-striking countenance. I give my opponents the measure of sandara in exchange for sa' (i. e. return thir attack with one that is much more fierce). The narrator said: 'Ali struck at the head of Mirhab and killed him, so the victory (capture of Khaibar) was due to him."

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31 minutes ago, Bukhari8k said:

Every follower of the prophet (saw) need guidance from him (saw) and we are proud of that that we need Muhammad (saw) as our guide. Umar's transformation was a big one. He, as a successful ruler over a vast empire which extended immensely and successfully under his rule, himself had said that I was someone who could not roam camel herd properly and now Islam has improved me to this point (managing the affairs of a vast Islamic empire).

Yes brother but according to the standards of power and politics Muawiya was an even more skilled ruler.    

But that doesn't mean they were the best muslims or closest to the Prophet s.a.w.a.s.

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