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In the Name of God بسم الله

Muhammad and Aisha

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4 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Is there any evidence that marrying later is mustahab in any way? There are plenty of narrations to the contrary. Why do you say that marrying at 9-10 is less good or less ethical than marrying at 16 (for example)? Is this based on any narrations or is this your opinion?

Secondly, since the ma`sumeen are capable of doing mubaH acts, then it would be a moot point anyway.

I didnt even type any of that it was edited.

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On 30/05/2017 at 4:55 AM, Islandsandmirrors said:

The age of Aisha or anyone honestly bears no relevance to the messages we taught from said people, by their behavior.

its none of our business if she was 10 or 18. Back in the old days, it was considered normal to get married at 10-15, and by the time she was just 20, a woman was considered too old to be married for the first time.

that said, sexual desires, or rather, a drive to have sex with someone, isn't present until 13-15. You might be mature or baligh at 10 or 11, but you won't want to have sex until a few years down the line. 

Was not the prophet 25 years old when he married his first wife who was older than him?

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In my opinion, the narrations on the age of Aisha are politically motivated. We know that one of the main arguments used by the supporters of Imam Ali was that he embraced Islam as a child and was raised within the Prophetic household making him more suitable than his opponents as an authority. It wouldn't surprise me if these reports on Aisha's young age were consequently forged by the Abassids to support their dynasty. As for the explicit evidence placing her at an older age, we  have historical reports which state that Aisha was born during jahiliyyah, making it impossible for her to have been nine years old at the time of hijra. There are also narrations in Bukhari which contradict this narrative, such as her being able to recall the events which lead to the first migration to Abyssinia (this would also have been impossible if she married the Prophet at nine years old). Also, why is it that out of the Prophet's 11 wives, reports with a specific reference to any age only exist for Aisha? In my view, this all goes back to the Abbasids who sought to compete with the virtues of Imam Ali having embraced Islam within the Prophetic household as a child.

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On 30/05/2017 at 3:51 AM, Qa'im said:

Is there any evidence that marrying later is mustahab in any way? There are plenty of narrations to the contrary. Why do you say that marrying at 9-10 is less good or less ethical than marrying at 16 (for example)? Is this based on any narrations or is this your opinion?

Secondly, since the ma`sumeen are capable of doing mubaH acts, then it would be a moot point anyway.

There are plenty of good reasons to argue against marrying a nine year old child. Perhaps the foremost of these, is that a nine year old would face the serious odds of dying as a result of child birth. The pelvis of a nine year old, for example, would still be developing and if they were to become pregnant, there is a high risk of the child dying from what doctors call "obstructed labour". 

https://www.maternityworldwide.org/the-issues/

“Girls under the age of 15 are five times more likely to die from maternal causes than adult women.”

“162,000 deaths in childbirth occur in sub Saharan Africa, that’s 56% of the total.”

“Every year more than a million children lose their mother as a result of her death in pregnancy or childbirth. These children are up to 10 times more likely to die prematurely than those living in families with a mother.”

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1 hour ago, Pro-Alid said:

There are plenty of good reasons to argue against marrying a nine year old child. Perhaps the foremost of these, is that a nine year old would face the serious odds of dying as a result of child birth. The pelvis of a nine year old, for example, would still be developing and if they were to become pregnant, there is a high risk of the child dying from what doctors call "obstructed labour". 

https://www.maternityworldwide.org/the-issues/

“Girls under the age of 15 are five times more likely to die from maternal causes than adult women.”

“162,000 deaths in childbirth occur in sub Saharan Africa, that’s 56% of the total.”

“Every year more than a million children lose their mother as a result of her death in pregnancy or childbirth. These children are up to 10 times more likely to die prematurely than those living in families with a mother.”

There is no doubt that women in their 20s are statistically less likely to die in labour than younger women, but the statistic above is about women who die in sub-Saharan Africa in general, with no reference to age. Right underneath that statistic, on the website, it says that a woman's risk in dying in labour in a Sub-Saharan country is 1 in 39 (though another source puts it much lower), while in a developed country it is 1 in 3,800. Age may be a factor in some deaths, but it is clearly not the major factor - HIV, AIDS, poverty, malnutrition, lack of access to medicine and medical professionals, and lack of regulations would probably take the cup. Simply compare the rate in Sub-Saharan Africa to the rate of another country that also has a low marriage age (like Ecuador, which mind you, is not considered developed). The maternal mortality rate in Chad is 1 in 100, while in Ecuador it is about 1 in 1,300. In Turkmenistan, 43% of women marry before 20, yet their maternal mortality rate is lower than most of the world.

Furthermore, pre-modern maternal mortality rates were historically quite high, regardless of age (it was 4% in 1600s America). Marrying in general is a risk, but that does not change the fiqh of it being recommended. The chance of dying in labour is there regardless, and is usually unrelated to age.

The Prophet also never had any children from `A'isha after 8 years, so it would be reasonable to assume that, if they were having intercourse, that a pre-modern form of birth control was being used, as she would probably have been most fertile in those years. And Allah knows best.

We have to balance all of this with the fact that the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt taught that marrying at 9 is valid. Had it been fundamentally wrong, and had the Prophet believed that it was wrong, then it would not have been taught.

As for sexual desires starting "after 15", I think this forum time and time again has proven otherwise.

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41 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

There is no doubt that women in their 20s are statistically less likely to die in labour than younger women, but the statistic above is about women who die in sub-Saharan Africa in general, with no reference to age. Right underneath that statistic, on the website, it says that a woman's risk in dying in labour in a Sub-Saharan country is 1 in 39 (though another source puts it much lower), while in a developed country it is 1 in 3,800. Age may be a factor in some deaths, but it is clearly not the major factor - HIV, AIDS, poverty, malnutrition, lack of access to medicine and medical professionals, and lack of regulations would probably take the cup. Simply compare the rate in Sub-Saharan Africa to the rate of another country that also has a low marriage age (like Ecuador, which mind you, is not considered developed). The maternal mortality rate in Chad is 1 in 100, while in Ecuador it is about 1 in 1,300. In Turmenistan, 43% of women marry before 20, yet their maternal mortality rate is lower than most of the world.

Furthermore, pre-modern maternal mortality rates were historically quite high, regardless of age (it was 4% in 1600s America). Marrying in general is a risk, but that does not change the fiqh of it being recommended. The chance of dying in labour is there regardless, and is usually unrelated to age.

The Prophet also never had any children from `A'isha after 8 years, so it would be reasonable to assume that, if they were having intercourse, that a pre-modern form of birth control was being used, as she would probably have been most fertile in those years. And Allah knows best.

We have to balance all of this with the fact that the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt taught that marrying at 9 is valid. Had it been fundamentally wrong, and had the Prophet believed that it was wrong, then it would not have been taught.

With all due respect, this is just an attempt to convolute the matter. The facts are "Girls under the age of 15 are five times more likely to die from maternal causes than adult women" and obstructed labour (also known as labour dystocia) is a major problem that results in the death of many young child brides, as well as their babies. The fact that you're not willing to dismiss this horrible practice after hearing this is quite worrying.

As for your point on the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt having taught that marrying at age 9 is valid, this seems to be disputed by Yasser al-Habib and the Shirazi scholars. Nonetheless, I'm not a Twelver so I'm not at liberty to accept any of these so-called reports attributed to the Ahl al-Bayt or the Imams, especially not by default anyway.

 

“An obstetric fistula is a childbirth complication due to obstructed labour when the tissues between a woman’s vagina and her bladder or rectum are damaged from the continuous pressure from the baby’s head stuck in the birth canal. The dead tissue falls off resulting in a hole through which the woman continuously leaks urine or faeces or sometimes both.”

“The toxic combination of a young girl having sex, getting pregnant and going through childbirth when her body is not developed enough accounts for at least 25% of known fistula cases.”

http://www.girlsnotbrides.org/fistula-a-silent-tragedy-for-child-brides/

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uCHwBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=obstructed+labour+child+marriage&source=bl&ots=ev1AzAA_7l&sig=wnQYRYUkpUQNyqRXd_C-78KrThk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7rMWX-Z3UAhUEYVAKHXf5AycQ6AEITDAF#v=onepage&q=obstructed labour child marriage&f=false

Edited by Pro-Alid
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I'm not trying to convolute anything. I'm just identifying inconsistent research methods - the website quoted contains facts that are disputed by the Lancet report that I linked, and it only cites a reference for one figure from a professional study. I'm also demonstrating that correlation does not always equal causation, especially when other factors (HIV, poverty, malnutrition, medicines) are not accounted for. I have already acknowledged that older women are less likely to die in labour, but it does not change everything else that I said. Even if the "girls under the age of 15 are five times more likely to die from maternal causes" figure is correct (find a proper source and not just a line on a site), that would be only about 0.001% in a developed country, a pretty insignificant figure. In other words, an older woman giving birth in the 7th century was hundreds of times more fatal than a younger woman giving birth in the 21st century.

 

1 hour ago, Pro-Alid said:

As for your point on the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt having taught that marrying at age 9 is valid, this seems to be disputed by Yasser al-Habib and the Shirazi scholars. Nonetheless, I'm not a Twelver so I'm not at liberty to accept any of these so-called reports attributed to the Ahl al-Bayt or the Imams, especially not by default anyway.

I have dealt with the argument of Yasir al-Habib. Could you perhaps show me the fatwa of a Shirazi marja` that says that marrying at 10 is not permissible? Here is the chapter in Wasa'il ash-Shi`a, which contains some sahih reports as well: Page 101, chapter 45: http://alsafwh.net/library/vblibrary/alwasael/wasael-20/v05.html

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This is from Ayatollah Al-Qazwini and you should apologise @Qa'im for claiming no shia scholar rejects the her age being 10.

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/how-old-was-ayshah-when-married-prophet-muhammad-muhammad-husayn-al-qazwini

Also what is impratical about the age now? 

Edited by Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī
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On 6/2/2017 at 3:01 AM, Qa'im said:

I'm not trying to convolute anything. I'm just identifying inconsistent research methods - the website quoted contains facts that are disputed by the Lancet report that I linked, and it only cites a reference for one figure from a professional study. I'm also demonstrating that correlation does not always equal causation, especially when other factors (HIV, poverty, malnutrition, medicines) are not accounted for. I have already acknowledged that older women are less likely to die in labour, but it does not change everything else that I said. Even if the "girls under the age of 15 are five times more likely to die from maternal causes" figure is correct (find a proper source and not just a line on a site), that would be only about 0.001% in a developed country, a pretty insignificant figure. In other words, an older woman giving birth in the 7th century was hundreds of times more fatal than a younger woman giving birth in the 21st century.

 

I have dealt with the argument of Yasir al-Habib. Could you perhaps show me the fatwa of a Shirazi marja` that says that marrying at 10 is not permissible? Here is the chapter in Wasa'il ash-Shi`a, which contains some sahih reports as well: Page 101, chapter 45: http://alsafwh.net/library/vblibrary/alwasael/wasael-20/v05.html

Simply because one hadithi is deemed sahih, it doesn't make it so. Do you accept the sihah al-sittah of ahle sunnah? If not then you are engaging in double-standards. 

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6 hours ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

This is from Ayatollah Al-Qazwini and you should apologise @Qa'im for claiming no shia scholar rejects the her age being 10.

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/how-old-was-ayshah-when-married-prophet-muhammad-muhammad-husayn-al-qazwini

Also what is impratical about the age now? 

Actually, I said that our marji` do not reject the validity of a 9 year old getting married. Please see the chapter in Wasa'il ash-Shi`a that I linked to on page one - the Shi`i position is that a 9 year old can marry and even have intercourse.

As for the information in the link you provided, I think it is clear that you have not read or understood the arguments I have given in page 1. The article relies on the reports of Ibn az-Zannad, I've already spoken about this and do not want to repeat myself.

As for why marriages are later nowadays, I have also mentioned this on page 1. And no, there is no ethical problem if a 10 year old wanted to marry today. The reasons why it is uncommon today is Western colonization, urbanization, education, economic complications, the invention of birth control, the post-industrial invention of adolescence as a stage of life, and the normalization of casual relationships. However the marriage age in some countries is still 12. In a 7th century patriarchal agricultural town, women generally married right after puberty. Please see page 1.

And as I have always said, anyone who has an issue with `A'isha's age should research the age of Fatima when she married.

5 hours ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

Simply because one hadithi is deemed sahih, it doesn't make it so. Do you accept the sihah al-sittah of ahle sunnah? If not then you are engaging in double-standards. 

It's not just sihha, but tawatur, and lack of any valid alternative arguments. I'm willing to concede that it is plausible that she was older, but according to the data, it is unlikely, and according to our religion, there is no ethical problem with someone marrying after puberty.

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@Qa'im  

Quote

Actually, I said that our marji` do not reject the validity of a 9 year old getting married. Please see the chapter in Wasa'il ash-Shi`a that I linked to on page one - the Shi`i position is that a 9 year old can marry and even have intercourse.

You've not provided any of the opinions of the marjaii, I'd like references please. Go ahead. Secondly you've not provided a PDF of Was'il ash-shia, go ahead and provide that.

 

Quote

As for the information in the link you provided, I think it is clear that you have not read or understood the arguments I have given in page 1. The article relies on the reports of Ibn az-Zannad, I've already spoken about this and do not want to repeat myself.

You should stop patronizing me, it's disrespectful. I have read it for the millionth time, you cannot seem to get that through your head. Now you haven't refuted the article, i'm going to ask you to refute it again. Since you are failing to do so. 

Quote

As for why marriages are later nowadays, I have also mentioned this on page 1. And no, there is no ethical problem if a 10 year old wanted to marry today. The reasons why it is uncommon today is Western colonization, urbanization, education, economic complications, the invention of birth control, the post-industrial invention of adolescence as a stage of life, and the normalization of casual relationships. 

Once again you failed to answer my question. I'm asking you personally, why would it be impractical for you to marry your 10 year old daughter to a 50 year old man? You are using extremely abstract terms and don't want to get into the details for obvious reasons.

Quote

It's not just sihha, but tawatur, and lack of any valid alternative arguments. I'm willing to concede that it is plausible that she was older, but according to the data, it is unlikely, and according to our religion, there is no ethical problem with someone marrying after puberty.

It is remarkable, you avoided my question AGAIN. You tried to present a "sahih" hadith as god's words but when I asked you about sunni hadiths you completely avoided the question. Now answer my question. 

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8 hours ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

You've not provided any of the opinions of the marjaii, I'd like references please. Go ahead. Secondly you've not provided a PDF of Was'il ash-shia, go ahead and provide that.

From Sayyid Sistani:

( مسألة 1011 ) : لا يجوز الدخول بالزوجة قبل إكمالها تسع سنين ولكنه لو فعل لم يحرم عليه وطؤها بعد بلوغها وإن كان قد أفضاها.

It is impermissible to have intercourse with a wife before she completes nine years. But if he did that, she will not become forbidden from him after she hits puberty, even if he had deflowered her.

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/book/13/657/

As for Wasa'il al-Shi`a, here is the link again: http://alsafwh.net/library/vblibrary/alwasael/wasael-20/v05.html

For the ease of the reader, I have translated the hadiths of the chapter:

ـ باب انه لا يجوز الدخول بالزوجة حتى تبلغ تسع سنين فإن
فعل قبل ذلك فعيبت أو أفضاها ضمن وحكم الدخول بالامة
قبل ذلك

Chapter on the impermissibility of having intercourse with a wife until she reaches 9 years, and if he does so prior and she becomes deflowered or one has intercourse with her, then he is culpable.

[ 25142 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد جميعا ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن حماد ، عن الحلبيّ ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال : إذا تزوج الرجل الجارية وهي صغيرة فلا يدخل بها حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين .

Imam as-Sadiq (as) said: If a man marries a girl and she is young, he should not have intercourse with her until she is nine years old.

[ 25143 ] 2 ـ وعن حميد بن زياد ، عن الحسن بن محمد بن سماعة ، عن

صفوان بن يحيى ، عن موسى بن بكر ، عن زرارة ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) قال : لا يدخل بالجارية حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين أو عشر سنين .
ورواه الصدوق بإسناده عن موسى بن بكر (1) .
ورواه الشيخ بإسناده عن الحسين بن سعيد ، عن صفوان ، مثله وزاد قال : إني سمعته يقول : تسع سنين أو عشر سنين (2) .
ورواه الصدوق في ( الخصال ) : عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى ، عن أبيه ، عن صفوان بن يحيى ، مثله (3) مع الزيادة

Imam al-Baqir (as) said: A girl does not have intercourse until she is nine or ten years old.
And this hadith has been narrated in three other Shia sources.

[ 25144 ] 3 ـ قال الكليني : وعنه عن زكريا المؤمن أو بينه وبينه رجل لا أعلمه إلا حدثني عن عمار السجستاني قال : سمعت أبا عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) يقول لمولى له : انطلق فقل للقاضي : قال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) : حد المرأة أن يدخل بها على زوجها ابنة تسع سنين .

The Messenger of Allah (s) said: The [minimum] limit for a woman to have intercourse with her husband is to be nine years old.

[ 25145 ] 4 ـ وعن عدة من أصحابنا ، عن سهل بن زياد ، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر ، عن عبد الكريم بن عمرو ، عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) قال : لا يدخل بالجارية حتّى يأتي لها تسع سنين أو عشر سنين .
محمد بن الحسن بإسناده عن محمد بن يعقوب ، مثله (1) ، وكذا الحديثان قبله .

Imam al-Baqir (as) said: A girl does not have intercourse until she is nine or ten years old.
And this hadith was narrated in another Shia source.

[ 25146 ] 5 ـ وبإسناده عن محمد بن (1) خالد ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن حماد ، عن الحلبي عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : من وطئ امرأته قبل تسع سنين فأصابها عيب فهو ضامن .
ورواه الصدوق في ( الخصال ) : عن محمد بن الحسن ، عن الصفار ، عن يعقوب بن يزيد ، عن محمد بن أبي عمير ، مثله (2) .

Imam as-Sadiq (as) said: One who has intercourse with his wife before she is nine years old and deflowers her is culpable.

[ 25147 ] 6 ـ وعنه عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن طلحة بن زيد ، عن جعفر ، عن أبيه ، عن علي ( عليهم السلام ) قال : من تزوج بكرا فدخل بها في أقل من تسع سنين فعيبت ضمن .

Imam Ali (as) said: Whomever marries a virgin and has intercourse with her before she reaches nine years and deflowers her is culpable.

[ 25148 ] 7 ـ وعنه ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن غياث بن إبراهيم ، عن جعفر ، عن أبيه ، عن علي ( عليهم السلام ) قال : لا توطأ جارية لاقل من عشر سنين ، فإن فعل فعيبت فقد ضمن .
أقول : هذا محمول على استحباب التأخير أو على الدخول في أول السنة العاشرة .

Imam Ali (as) said: A girl who is less than ten years old is not deflowered, and if a man does so then he is culpable.

The compiler said: This is interpreted to mean the desirability of delaying intercourse until she becomes ten years old.

[ 25149 ] 8 ـ محمد بن علي بن الحسين بإسناده عن حماد ، عن الحلبي ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) إن من دخل بامرأة قبل أن تبلغ تسع سنين فأصابها عيب فهو ضامن .

Imam as-Sadiq (as) said: Whomever enters a woman before she is nine years old and deflowers her is culpable.

[ 25150 ] 9 ـ وبإسناده عن الحسن بن محبوب ، عن أبي أيوب ، عن حمران ،

عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : سئل عن رجل تزوج جارية بكرا لم تدرك ، فلما دخل بها اقتضها فأفضاها ؟ فقال : إن كان دخل بها حين دخل بها ولها تسع سنين فلا شيء عليه ، وإن كانت لم تبلغ تسع سنين أو كان لها أقل من ذلك بقليل حين دخل بها فاقتضها فإنه قد أفسدها وعطلها على الازواج فعلى الامام أن يغرمه ديتها ، وإن أمسكها ولم يطلقها حتى تموت فلا شيء عليه .

Imam as-Sadiq (as) was asked about a man who married a virgin girl who had not hit puberty, and he had intercourse with her and deflowered her. So he said: If he had intercourse with her when she was nine years old, then there is nothing upon him (no problem). If she had not reached nine years of age, or if he had intercourse with her and demanded it of her when she was younger than that, then he has corrupted her and hindered her from the husbands (remarrying). It is upon the Imam to charge him her diyya (compensation money). But if he withholds and does not divorce her until she dies, then there is nothing upon him.

[ 25151 ] 10 ـ وفي ( الخصال ) : عن أبيه ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن أبي عمير ، عن غير واحد ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : حد بلوغ المرأة تسع سنين .

Imam as-Sadiq (as) said: The [minimum] limit of puberty is nine years.

 

8 hours ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

You should stop patronizing me, it's disrespectful. I have read it for the millionth time, you cannot seem to get that through your head. Now you haven't refuted the article, i'm going to ask you to refute it again. Since you are failing to do so. 

Brother I have asked you to read it again, because it was apparent from the chatroom that you formed a very hostile opinion within seconds or minutes after sending you this link. Even if you are a fast reader, there is over an hour of video content in this thread, and other readings and another thread were linked on page one. Then, you threatened legal action. Then, within minutes, you posted content from Ahmadi books which try to prove that `A'isha was older, then you deleted that post. Furthermore, the questions you ask have already mostly been answered, and I know that it takes longer than a few minutes to survey all of the evidence on both sides and reach a fair conclusion.

 

8 hours ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

Once again you failed to answer my question. I'm asking you personally, why would it be impractical for you to marry your 10 year old daughter to a 50 year old man? You are using extremely abstract terms and don't want to get into the details for obvious reasons.

I have already said that it is irrelevant what I would personally do. God's representatives and Imams have declared it to be mubah, and there is plenty of mubah things that I have not done. What I do or don't do is not the moral compass of this religion or ethics. What I do also does not change history or the evidence. I can say that if this were to happen somewhere today, I would not see it as something evil that will be accounted for in the Hereafter. I would desire to see the girl finish her schooling at least before getting married, but that is a pragmatic social issue, and not an issue of good and evil, deeds and sins.

The terms I have used are not abstract, they are social phenomenons that you can read about. I will provide some material for you:

Marriage ages in pre-modern America and Europe: https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/09/age-of-consent-in-european-american-history/

Read the section on demographic impacts of birth control, which include delaying marriage and childbearing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4536622/

As for urbanization's effects on the delay of marriage, read here: https://www.google.ca/search?dcr=0&q=urban+marry+later+than+rural&oq=urban+marry+later+than+rural&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1682.6696.0.6862.28.27.0.0.0.0.183.3120.7j20.27.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.20.2290...0j35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i21k1j33i160k1.d88hFr8meHQ

On the 19th-20th century invention of adolescence, http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/simone-biow/does-adolescence-make-sense

It should be noted that prior to the Industrial Revolution, there was no concept of the adolescent or teenager. By 12 or 13, in most societies, you were considered an adult with all of the same rights and responsibilities as other adults. In Islam, bulugh (puberty) is when you become fully accountable to the shari`a.

Till this day, in Bolivia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Nicaragua, the marriage age is 12-14. This shouldn't be a surprise, as these countries have rural populations, and are predominantly Catholic, and therefore prefer marrying their daughters early. In parts of the U.S where contraception is hard to acquire, many girls become pregnant in their teens. Islam simply wants these relationships encased in the bond of marriage.

Joan of France, Anne de Mowbray, and Margaret Beaufort were all married between the ages 7 and 12 in the 1400s. In a 7th century Arabian village, this sorts of marriage were very, very common.

Sayyida Fatima (as) was probably 9 when she married. This is according to al-Kafi, Volume 8, page 338-339: http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m012/09/no0986.html

From al-Kafi, volume 1, book 4, in the chapter on the birth and death of Amir al-Mu'mineen, graded Hasan by Allamah al-Majlisi
عبد الله بن جعفر وسعد بن عبد الله جميعا، عن إبراهيم بن مهزيار، عن أخيه علي بن مهزيار، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن هشام بن سالم، عن حبيب السجستاني قال: سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول: ولدت فاطمة بنت محمد صلى الله عليه وآله بعد مبعث رسول الله بخمس سنين وتوفيت ولها ثمان عشرة سنة وخمسة وسبعون يوما.

It says that Fatima was born 5 years after the Prophet was commissioned. That's 615 CE.  The historians put the marriage of Ali and Fatima after Badr, which was in 624 AH. This means Ali was 24 and Fatima was 9.

 

8 hours ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

It is remarkable, you avoided my question AGAIN. You tried to present a "sahih" hadith as god's words but when I asked you about sunni hadiths you completely avoided the question. Now answer my question. 

I shouldn't have to explain that Sunni works are not hujja upon us as the word of God. Sunni and Shia books have their own respective epistemological frameworks, and asaneed are not treated the same way. I have provided plenty of reliable material in this thread from various Shii books - everything else is complementary and superfluous. To our fuqaha', if a fiqh hadith is reliable, mutawatir, consistent with the Quran, and is not contradicted by other strong traditions, then there really is no debate on its applicability.

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@Qa'im It is simple, at that age you are not mature enough to understand the world. Hiding behind narrations doesn't change any of those facts. Do you really think 9 year old girls aren't children? or that they are even mature to understand what is going on? 

 

You've not provided a PDF.

Edited by Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī
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5 hours ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

@Qa'im It is simple, at that age you are not mature enough to understand the world. Hiding behind narrations doesn't change any of those facts. Do you really think 9 year old girls aren't children? or that they are even mature to understand what is going on? 

 

You've not provided a PDF.

The same argument can be leveled at an 18 year old. There is much I didn't understand about the world at 18, yet I was able to legally get married in my society. Why did our society choose 18 and not 15, or 21, or 35, or 10? If Islam is a universal religion for all times and places, then it makes more sense to relate sexual ethics to biology (physical maturity), rather than something as subjective as emotional maturity.

By the way, this is purely the harams and halals of the religion. There is no obligation to marry at 10 - you can marry at 40 if you'd like, or not marry at all. But in societies without birth control, and in rural societies where childbearing is important for survival, fertility is vital, and women are most fertile in their teenage years. Instead of marrying at 30 and having 2 kids, rural women often marry in their teens and have 8 kids. Those of us who live in urban North America and the UK have radically different lifestyles: we live in cities, we are wealthy (by historical and current global standards), pensions and social security guarantee our well-being in elderly years, and so having children is no longer a necessity; and most modern Western couples just have 1-3 kids. But ask your parents when your great grandparents got married, and you'd be surprised. My grandmother was probably 14.

Here is the PDF: http://lfile.ir/hadith-library/121.pdf

And here are other website sources with the same chapter:

http://qadatona.org/عربي/مكتبة-الكتب/1_وسائل-الشيعة/4883_باب-انه-لا-يجوز-الدخول-بالزوجة-حتى-تبلغ-تسع-سنين-فإن-فعل-قبل-ذلك-فعيبت-أو-أفضاها-ضمن-وحكم-الدخول

http://www.shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1206_وسائل-الشيعة-آل-البيت-الحر-العاملي-ج-٢٠/الصفحة_99

https://books.rafed.net/m/?type=c_fbook&b_id=337&page=101

http://alhassanain.org/m/arabic/?com=book&id=833&page=101

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