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In the Name of God بسم الله

Muhammad and Aisha

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1 hour ago, AfricanShia said:

I personally do not believe that Aisha was 7 years old when Rasoolalah married her. 

There were many different ages mooted for Aisha's age.

One was 18 and another was higher.

Sunni scholarship decided to push for 9 to win sympathy with the general public.

A young age could also excuse her for her many mistakes.

Shia scholarship has not confirmed any age for her. 

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1 hour ago, Yasmin P said:

I've heard the Qur'an says it is haram to have relations with a child.  A seven, six or even nine year old is a child.  Does it makes sense then, that the prophet who brought the Qur'an would contradict it?  

Aisha was about 18 years old when Rasoolalah married her. 

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10 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Should I quote relevant arguments against this claim? The video of Nakshawani posted earlier actually refutes most attempts to make her older.

Im quite certain that the The Holy Prophet wouldnt marry a 10 year old girl. Rather he would marry a woman of maturity. 

Edited by AfricanShia
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10 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Should I quote relevant arguments against this claim? The video of Nakshawani posted earlier actually refutes most attempts to make her older.

Asma 'bt Abu Bakr Asma was 10 years older then her sister Aisha. When her sister migrated to Medina she was 27 so Aisha was at least 17 years old. 

Edited by AfricanShia
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On 5/29/2017 at 2:13 PM, Qa'im said:

I'll just quote the relevant arguments, you can read through them and respond adequately:

Regarding Ibn Kathir's report that Asma' was only 10 years older:

Regarding Shaykh Yasir al-Habib's argument that `A'isha deliberately lied about her age:

Regarding the history of revision of `A'isha's age:

Regarding the age of `A'isha in al-Kafi

Regarding the age of Sayyida Fatima (as):

Regarding age of consent and biology

Regarding the position of our Imams on the permissibly of marrying at 9:

A summary of arguments:

Why marriage ages are different today:

Thanks bruv

You forget that the Infallibles had very high moral values in which it is more logical for The Holy Prophet to Marry an 18 year old rather than a 10 year old girl. Also sercret intrigues(boyfriend/girlfriend) was not something common like now. 

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Just now, AfricanShia said:

You forget that the Infallibles had very high moral values in which it is more logical for The Holy Prophet to Marry an 18 year old rather than a 10 year old girl. Also sercret intrigues(boyfriend/girlfriend) was not something common like now. 

Why is marrying an 18 year old more "logical"? In our fiqh, a girl becomes a woman at puberty.

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1 minute ago, AfricanShia said:

Then why dont you do it yourself? Why doesnt anyone do it commonly?

Please read my post above in full, all of the quotes, I have answered all of these questions already. I don't want to keep repeating myself.

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1 minute ago, Qa'im said:

Please read my post above in full, all of the quotes, I have answered all of these questions already. I don't want to keep repeating myself.

I dont want to read inaccurate claims. If you have full certainty of what you say then why dont you answer my question? 

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4 minutes ago, AfricanShia said:

I dont want to read inaccurate claims. If you have full certainty of what you say then why dont you answer my question? 

What I would personally do is not only an invalid historical argument, but an invalid and relative ethical argument, so I adjure you to cease this woeful ignorance and read my arguments. If you are confident in your position and can argue for it, then my arguments should not frighten you in the slightest. At this point brother you are not speaking from a position of knowledge.

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3 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

What I would personally do is not only an invalid historical argument, but an invalid and relative ethical argument, so I adjure you to cease this woeful ignorance and read my arguments. If you are confident in your position and can argue for it, then my arguments should not frighten you in the slightest. At this point brother you are not speaking from a position of knowledge.

Indeed I am. Logically speaking, such sexual desires of an individual does not appear until the individual is of 15+ years of age unless polluted by innapropiate influence

Edited by AfricanShia
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2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Regarding the age of `A'isha in al-Kafi

I know we've had this discussion already and we do disagree on this topic. However, I thought I should bring this point to attention that the hadith in Al-Kafi is not Saheeh or acceptable. So, its usage only indicates one's personal bias towards a specific position. 

Similarly, regarding the age of Lady Fatima (as), it should clearly be stated that we do not know how old she was when her marriage with Imam Ali (as) was consummated. 

As I've said before, in the thread that you linked to, there are zero acceptable traditions/hadeeth regarding the age of either Aisha or lady Fatima (a s) and when their marriages were consummated. 

I think this should always be added as a disclaimer. 

 

 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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2 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

I know we've had this discussion already and we do disagree on this topic. However, I thought I should bring this point to attention that the hadith in Al-Kafi is not Saheeh or acceptable. So, its usage only indicates one's personal bias towards a specific position. 

Similarly, regarding the age of Lady Fatima (as), it should clearly be stated that we do not know how old she was when her marriage with Imam Ali (as) was consummated. 

As I've said before, in the thread that you linked to, there are zero acceptable traditions/hadeeth regarding the age of either Aisha or lady Fatima Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and when their marriages were consummated. 

I think this should always be added as a disclaimer.

This of course will depend on your burden of proof (if it is sihha, then Ibn az-Zinad's report, which is the only textual proof for `A'isha being older, cannot be accepted). However I respect the consistency of your approach over those that arbitrarily want to change history based on their own reservations.

As for the age of Fatima, as you remember in that thread, I am still looking for your evidence that she was older than 9-12 when she married Amir al-Mu'mineen (as). Have you found a sahih report that contradicts the existing data? If not, do you think it is unreasonable to believe that Fatima married at 9, and if so why, especially if there does not appear to be a fiqhi or ethical problem with this

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2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

This of course will depend on your burden of proof (if it is sihha, then Ibn az-Zinad's report, which is the only textual proof for `A'isha being older, cannot be accepted). However I respect the consistency of your approach over those that arbitrarily want to change history based on their own reservations.

As for the age of Fatima, as you remember in that thread, I am still looking for your evidence that she was older than 9-12 when she married Amir al-Mu'mineen (as). Have you found a sahih report that contradicts the existing data? If not, do you think it is unreasonable to believe that Fatima married at 9, and if so why, especially if there does not appear to be a fiqhi or ethical problem with this

I believe considering the sensitivity of the topic and it being potentially controversial for a variety of reasons, if we're uncertain, it's best to not guess and assume. 

Personally, I distinguish between fiqhi and ethical concerns. I hinted to this in our previous discussion. Just because something is permitted or mubah, it doesn't make it ethical or mustahab. Our infallibles (a s) did what was best of all actions, not what was merely permissible.  They're our role models. If they had a choice, they chose mustahab over mubah. 

So, marrying at age 9 or consummating marriage at that age may be permitted, but it may not be the best, most ethical, option. So, until we're sure at what age Lady Fatima (a s) consummated her marriage, it's best to not make assumptions. 

This is my opinion. 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

I believe considering the sensitivity of the topic and it being potentially controversial for a variety of reasons, if we're uncertain, it's best to not guess and assume. 

Personally, I distinguish between fiqhi and ethical concerns. I hinted to this in our previous discussion. Just because something is permitted or mubah, it doesn't make it ethical or mustahab. Our infallibles (a s) did what was best of all actions, not what was merely permissible.  They're our role models. If they had a choice, they chose mustahab over mubah. 

So, marrying at age 9 or consummating marriage at that age may be permitted, but it may not be the best, most ethical, option. So, until we're sure at what age Lady Fatima (a s) consummated her marriage, it's best to not make assumptions. 

This is my opinion. 

Good point but in the end of the day we all know that Aisha had to be 18 years old, an age where she would actually have proper intellectual capabilities and full maturity to carry out the duties as a wife and to have understood the meaning of being The Holy Prophet's wife. 

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2 hours ago, AfricanShia said:

Our infallibles (a s) did what was best of all actions, not what was merely permissible.  They're our role models. If they had a choice, they chose mustahab over mubah. 

So, marrying at age 9 or consummating marriage at that age may be permitted, but it may not be the best, most ethical, option.

Is there any evidence that marrying later is mustahab in any way? There are plenty of narrations to the contrary. Why do you say that marrying at 9-10 is less good or less ethical than marrying at 16 (for example)? Is this based on any narrations or is this your opinion?

Secondly, since the ma`sumeen are capable of doing mubaH acts, then it would be a moot point anyway.

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29 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Is there any evidence that marrying later is mustahab in any way? There are plenty of narrations to the contrary. Why do you say that marrying at 9-10 is less good or less ethical than marrying at 16 (for example)? Is this based on any narrations or is this your opinion?

Secondly, since the ma`sumeen are capable of doing mubaH acts, then it would be a moot point anyway.

Can you provide me with a few narrations that indicate it is mustahab for girls to marry soon after puberty? I'm unaware of such narrations. (Not saying that they don't exist. I just don't know whether they do, and I don't know what they say, if they do exist.)

Our infallibles are capable of doing Mubah deeds. However, we look up to them as role models. If there are two acts or options, X and Y, and we see that our infallibles have chosen one over the other, let's say X over Y, then we'd assume that doing X is better than doing Y, when both options are available. Right?

 

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The age of Aisha or anyone honestly bears no relevance to the messages we taught from said people, by their behavior.

its none of our business if she was 10 or 18. Back in the old days, it was considered normal to get married at 10-15, and by the time she was just 20, a woman was considered too old to be married for the first time.

that said, sexual desires, or rather, a drive to have sex with someone, isn't present until 13-15. You might be mature or baligh at 10 or 11, but you won't want to have sex until a few years down the line. 

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The accuracy of age was not of great importance in those days. There are several claims in regard to Ayesha's age.

The reason why Sunnis have promoted the age of 9 was to evoke sympathy from the people. It is easier to excuse mistakes done at the age of 30 than 40.

So the younger they can show Ayesha, the lower her age at the battle of Jamal - the disastrous campaign she undertook after the death of Uthman.

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