Too much gold and silver on our Shrines?

[Guest Anonymous]

Why are the shrines of the Shia (for example in Iraq) so grand and majestic when there are poor people everywhere? It's beautiful when we rebuild the Shrines of our Imams but is it right to spend so much money/gold when there 3million orphans in Iraq? Iraqis and shias have no home, which is the right act of Islam?

[Sindbad05]

This money is for building the Shrines and is part of Khums and not Zakat. A good part of it is spent on Muslim community and only a fraction of it is used on Shrines. 

Secondly, there is heap of money being used in Haram way, by Muslim monarchs, Presidents, Prime Ministers and Ministers all across Muslim world. If that be stopped and used for welfare of mankind instead of corruption then it could do much better for welfare of mankind. And, if all that be unable to bring about goodness of people, then you could ask about whether the money is spent rightly or in wrong manner on shrines. 

[notme]

I do think we should do more for our poor brothers and sisters, but making the shrines beautiful is an act of love. I would not discourage it. 

[Haydar Husayn]

7 minutes ago, notme said:

I do think we should do more for our poor brothers and sisters, but making the shrines beautiful is an act of love. I would not discourage it. 

A building doesn't need to be decorated with gold and silver in order to be beautiful. In fact, generally I'd say that doing such things is in bad taste, particularly if in the proximity of poverty. The Prophet (s) built the first mosque in an extremely simple way. The Kaaba itself was built in a simple way. I think we would be better off taking inspiration from those examples, rather than of shallow materialistic ideals of beauty.

[Qa'im]

Although I agree in principle, the main problem in Iraq is corruption. After 2003, the United States rewrote Iraq's economic law by lifting tariffs on all foreign imports, and not allowing Iraqi farmers to save or share seeds, or replant harvested seeds (Order 81). Iraq used to provide over 90% of its own produce, now it relies almost entirely on imports. These laws have not yet been fully reversed by the Iraqi government. It should also be noted that there is tons of bribery in the parliament and judiciary, and thousands of paid "advisors" living in the West, who are given millions of dollars every year to make occasional phone calls and visits. Iraq can be very wealthy if they got their stuff together.

[Faruk]

 

32 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Although I agree in principle, the main problem in Iraq is corruption. After 2003, the United States rewrote Iraq's economic law by lifting tariffs on all foreign imports, and not allowing Iraqi farmers to save or share seeds, or replant harvested seeds (Order 81). Iraq used to provide over 90% of its own produce, now it relies almost entirely on imports. These laws have not yet been fully reversed by the Iraqi government. It should also be noted that there is tons of bribery in the parliament and judiciary, and thousands of paid "advisors" living in the West, who are given millions of dollars every year to make occasional phone calls and visits. Iraq can be very wealthy if they got their stuff together.

Iraq is not a sovereign country.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Faruk

[Faruk]

1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

This money is for building the Shrines and is part of Khums and not Zakat. A good part of it is spent on Muslim community and only a fraction of it is used on Shrines. 

Secondly, there is heap of money being used in Haram way, by Muslim monarchs, Presidents, Prime Ministers and Ministers all across Muslim world. If that be stopped and used for welfare of mankind instead of corruption then it could do much better for welfare of mankind. And, if all that be unable to bring about goodness of people, then you could ask about whether the money is spent rightly or in wrong manner on shrines. 

Two wrongs don't make a right. I am actually waiting for the jurisprudential explanation of it. 

Anyone?

Edited May 25, 2017 by Faruk

[AbuHope]

Actually, the poor and rich people themselves gladly give money to rebuild the shrines. People are being helped in every way possible and there's still money to rebuild the shrines. The funds for the shrines aren't "misused for decoration instead of helping the poor". Both things are happening. It's just that you see the shrines but not the poor being helped.

[Sindbad05]

13 hours ago, Faruk said:

Two wrongs don't make a right. I am actually waiting for the jurisprudential explanation of it. 

Anyone?

Jurisprudence ? Ok. Here you go: 

·        [Shakir 7:31] O children of Adam! Attend to your embellishments at every time of prayer, and eat and drink and be not extravagant; surely He does not love the extravagant.

Embellishment is not a sin if it is appropriate and not inappropriate. The Shrines of Ahlebait a.s feed the visitors and provide every facility to the visitors and every year that money is spent for those visitors while for Gold on Shrines, it was once in life time and are just thoroughly cleaned now and to tell you, these are not whole Gold bricks, these are just gold plates that are fixes on one side of Brick and inserted and the view you see is that think golden plates and not the Brick which is carrying that plate and driven into structure. So, it is not against Islam.  

[Sindbad05]

14 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

A building doesn't need to be decorated with gold and silver in order to be beautiful. In fact, generally I'd say that doing such things is in bad taste, particularly if in the proximity of poverty. The Prophet (s) built the first mosque in an extremely simple way. The Kaaba itself was built in a simple way. I think we would be better off taking inspiration from those examples, rather than of shallow materialistic ideals of beauty.

Allah AWJ a.s never discouraged edifices to be built upon the graves of Ashab-i-Kahaf. If there is something which people pay in homage to the Shrines, then it is not wrong to be used on those Shrines, because people paid it for renovation of Shrines and make it much beautiful. However, not all of it is used on the renovation of Shrines but a bulk of amount is used to provide facilities to the people there such as water and dinning for the new visitors and Air condition and Electricity Bills. As explained Gold were just plates being used on the bricks and not whole of it are Golden bricks. These are think plates bonded with clay bricks.  

[Guest Concerned Muslim]

On 5/26/2017 at 7:33 AM, Sindbad05 said:

Allah AWJ a.s never discouraged edifices to be built upon the graves of Ashab-i-Kahaf.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

I was always under the impression that the people who built the Masjid on the grave were the same people Ashab Al-Kahf were staying away from to protect their religion.  Like when Allah سبحانه وتعالى says in verse 10:

 

(Remember) when the young men fled for refuge (from their disbelieving folk) to the Cave. They said: "Our Lord! Bestow on us mercy from Yourself, and facilitate for us our affair in the right way!"

Or in verses 15-16:

These our people have taken for worship alihah (gods) other than Him (Allah). Why do they not bring for them a clear authority? And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah.   (The young men said to one another): "And when you withdraw from them, and that which they worship, except Allah, then seek refuge in the Cave; your Lord will open a way for you from His Mercy and will make easy for you your affair (i.e. will give you what you will need of provision, dwelling)." Or in verse 20: For, if they come to know of you, they will stone you (to death or abuse and harm you) or turn you back to their religion; and in that case you will never be successful. My understanding is that it was disbelievers who built the masjid on the grave, والله أعلى وأعلم!

 

[Sindbad05]

1 minute ago, Guest Concerned Muslim said:

I was always under the impression that the people who built the Masjid on the grave were the same people Ashab Al-Kahf were staying away from to protect their religion.  Like when Allah سبحانه وتعالى says in verse 10:

How can a person built a grave after it's death....?????

Secondly, I do not what you mean by this post  

Please explain 

[Sindbad05]

8 minutes ago, Guest Concerned Muslim said:

I was always under the impression that the people who built the Masjid on the grave were the same people Ashab Al-Kahf were staying away from to protect their religion.  Like when Allah سبحانه وتعالى says in verse 10:

 

(Remember) when the young men fled for refuge (from their disbelieving folk) to the Cave. They said: "Our Lord! Bestow on us mercy from Yourself, and facilitate for us our affair in the right way!"

• Secondly, if you wanted to say that the people who were erecting edifices over the graves of Ashab-i-Kahaf and those whom from they fled, were the same, I would like to tell you that both were different people. The earlier people from whom they fled were disbelievers and the later people who said to establish shrines were believers. 

[Guest Concerned Muslim]

51 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

How can a person built a grave after it's death....?????

Secondly, I do not what you mean by this post  

Please explain 

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

I don't understand your question, brother; I don't think I said anything about building a grave after its death?  Just to clarify, I said, it was the same people from the same religion which the people of the Kahf were running away from.  It was their decision to build the grave...

41 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

• Secondly, if you wanted to say that the people who were erecting edifices over the graves of Ashab-i-Kahaf and those whom from they fled, were the same, I would like to tell you that both were different people. The earlier people from whom they fled were disbelievers and the later people who said to establish shrines were believers. 

Where did you get that information from, brother?  In fact, it seems pretty clear that they are one and the same, as the Ashab al-Kahf when they woke up said, "For, if they come to know of you, they will stone you (to death or abuse and harm you) or turn you back to their religion; and in that case you will never be successful."  Where did you get that they changed religions while the Ashab al-Kahf were in their long sleep, بارك الله فيك?

[baqar]

On 5/25/2017 at 3:32 PM, Guest Anonymous said:

Why are the shrines of the Shia (for example in Iraq) so grand and majestic when there are poor people everywhere? 

The same argument can be applied to azadari.

However, reducing expenses on azadari or on the shrines will not necessarily get rid of poverty.

[Sindbad05]

3 hours ago, Guest Concerned Muslim said:

they will stone you (to death or abuse and harm you) or turn you back to their religion;

Where did you get this from ? The above incident which you are speaking about is I am sure about those people who were after Ashab-i-Kahaf when they were escaped from the city 300 years before.

Secondly, I will tell you that those people were not one and the same the reason of this is that Ashab-i-Kahaf slept for 300 and 9 lunar years as said by Quran, And, how do you think that 300 years before people lived were same as that after 300 years ????? 

[Sindbad05]

45 minutes ago, Guest Concerned Muslim said:

I don't understand your question, brother; I don't think I said anything about building a grave after its death?  Just to clarify, I said, it was the same people from the same religion which the people of the Kahf were running away from.  It was their decision to build the grave...

Totally wrong, as cleared from the above 300 and 9 years time told by time. They were the generation who embraced prophet Jesus as Prophet and were not same as those who disbelieved in Prophet Jesus and were disbelievers. 

[Sindbad05]

52 minutes ago, Guest Concerned Muslim said:

Where did you get that information from, brother?  In fact, it seems pretty clear that they are one and the same, as the Ashab al-Kahf when they woke up said, "For, if they come to know of you, they will stone you (to death or abuse and harm you) or turn you back to their religion; and in that case you will never be successful."  Where did you get that they changed religions while the Ashab al-Kahf were in their long sleep, بارك الله فيك?

[Shakir 18:25] And they remained in their cave three hundred years and (some) add (another) nine.

I hope you would do justice for your own sake and not because you dislike Shias, Shias are with truth. 

[Guest Concerned Muslim]

2 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Where did you get this from ? The above incident which you are speaking about is I am sure about those people who were after Ashab-i-Kahaf when they were escaped from the city 300 years before.

Secondly, I will tell you that those people were not one and the same the reason of this is that Ashab-i-Kahaf slept for 300 and 9 lunar years as said by Quran, And, how do you think that 300 years before people lived were same as that after 300 years ????? 

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Akhi, where did you get that those people changed their religion?  Just because three hundreds years passed it does not mean their religion changed.  Muslims have been Muslims for 1400 years, Christians for 2000 and Jews for الله أعلم how much longer than that.  There are still people from religions for all over the world that are even older than that.  It is Allah سباحنه وتعالى Himself  that quotes Ashab al-Kahf as saying, "For, if they come to know of you, they will stone you (to death or abuse and harm you) or turn you back to their religion; and in that case you will never be successful."  Do you have a translation which says something different, brother?

2 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

[Shakir 18:25] And they remained in their cave three hundred years and (some) add (another) nine.

I hope you would do justice for your own sake and not because you dislike Shias, Shias are with truth. 

Has nothing do with "hating" Shi'as as I don't hate you guys, بارك الله فيك., I consider you brothers in faith (not just Muslim, but Mu'min inshallah as well)

I'm not sure how you quoted the translation there, can you do that for 18:20?  You'll find I didn't make up the "turn you back to your religion" quote.  Here is the quote from Shakir if that's your preferred translation:

For surely if they prevail against you they would stone you to death or force you back to their religion, and then you will never succeed.

Inshallah you can provide some evidence that they changed their religion; because my understanding is that it is the same religion, بارك الله فيك وغفر لي ولك

[Sindbad05]

13 minutes ago, Guest Concerned Muslim said:

Akhi, where did you get that those people changed their religion?  Just because three hundreds years passed it does not mean their religion changed.  Muslims have been Muslims for 1400 years, Christians for 2000 and Jews for الله أعلم how much longer than that.  There are still people from religions for all over the world that are even older than that.  It is Allah سباحنه وتعالى Himself  that quotes Ashab al-Kahf as saying, "For, if they come to know of you, they will stone you (to death or abuse and harm you) or turn you back to their religion; and in that case you will never be successful."  Do you have a translation which says something different, brother?

hahahaha, akhi by speaking on this account unreasonably does not proves anything....you asked where I got this, I gave you the proof.

Secondly, you think they were infidels still, then you are wrong, because they revered and respected them and for that reason they built edifices over them. So, you are wrong bro. 

[Guest Concerned Muslim]

13 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

hahahaha, akhi by speaking on this account unreasonably does not proves anything....you asked where I got this, I gave you the proof.

Secondly, you think they were infidels still, then you are wrong, because they revered and respected them and for that reason they built edifices over them. So, you are wrong bro. 

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Akhi, this is called circular reasoning.  You consider building mosques over graves a praiseworthy act, and you extract this information from the verse which speaks about a group of people, whom the Qur'an refers to as disbelievers, as building a mosque over a grave.  I ask you, where does the Qur'an say they changed their religion (or any source I suppose) and your argument is that, well, they are obviously believers because they built a mosque over their grave... I hope you realize that this a circular argument and doesn't prove anything, بارك الله فيك because the only reason you believe they changed their religion is because they did something that you agree with; the same thing we disagreed about in the first place.

So unless you can provide any evidence to suggest they changed their religion, as of right now, we have to take Allah's word for it, بارك الله فيك ونفع بك

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

2 hours ago, Guest Concerned Muslim said:

Muslims have been Muslims for 1400 years,

wow, where you get that from?

Why there are so many hypocrites within the Muslims? What happened to Muslims immediate after the death of Prophet? Why these Muslims killed the Ahlul bayt (a.s)? Why those so called Muslims killed the prince of the youth of jannah? And why there are verses like these in Quran:

Surah Ya Seen, Verse 7:

لَقَدْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ عَلَىٰ أَكْثَرِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

Certainly the word has proved true of most of them, so they do not believe.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Yusuf, Verse 106:
وَمَا يُؤْمِنُ أَكْثَرُهُم بِاللَّهِ إِلَّا وَهُم مُّشْرِكُونَ

And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Hajj, Verse 74:
مَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَقَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ

They have not estimated Allah with the estimation that is due to Him; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty.
(English - Shakir)

[Sindbad05]

2 hours ago, Guest Concerned Muslim said:

Akhi, this is called circular reasoning.  You consider building mosques over graves a praiseworthy act, and you extract this information from the verse which speaks about a group of people, whom the Qur'an refers to as disbelievers, as building a mosque over a grave.  I ask you, where does the Qur'an say they changed their religion (or any source I suppose) and your argument is that, well, they are obviously believers because they built a mosque over their grave... I hope you realize that this a circular argument and doesn't prove anything, بارك الله فيك because the only reason you believe they changed their religion is because they did something that you agree with; the same thing we disagreed about in the first place.

Akhi you are not using your eyes and intellect properly, disbelievers kill and do not erect mosque whom they disbelieve in. So, you should see that what they did, are edifices errected or graves for showing enmity towards those who are in graves or remembering them ? 

Please have use some reason bro. If you do not like Shrines, and Allah praises such act that out of their respect they were saying to erect edifices, it does not mean that you are right and Allah AWJ is wrong. bro  

[islam25]

Your question is reasonable. 

But millions of Iraqi or other people are poor or starving is not because of putting large amount of gold on shrines. 

But because corrupt government and lack of commitment and will of government. Again common masses are also responsible because their poor sensitivity and perception of problem and not using coordinates effort to eliminate poorty. 

Prosperity of a nations doesn't depend on resources but on the people of nation. 

If people are committed todevelop nation, work selflessly with sincerety and honesty definitely they will be prosperous and happy. 

And they can even help other nations. 

But if local people are greedy, corrupt and waiting others fo help then such nation is destined to be slaved and starved. 

 

[Khadim uz Zahra]

I was listening to a lecture yesterday and the scholar had a very interesting story to share (I don't know the history of it and haven't authenticated it but even if it was a fabrication - and, I trust the scholar that it's not - it still makes sense all the same):

He was talking about a saying from Imam Ali that Muslims should be careful of having the Qur'an in their hands but letting others walk in its path. To make the point, he referenced some Grand Rabbi from Israel. When the state of Israel was created, people came to him and asked him to help create the most magnificent synagogue under his supervision, one that would put any mosque, temple or church to shame. And, the Rabbi replied by asking them what they thought the worth of such a synagogue, even if he made one entirely out of diamonds, would be in the eyes of God, He who created the Universe? The scholar finished by saying that these Jews instead invested their money in education and, so, walked in the path of the Qur'an, while we are still stuck a century behind them.

It's a very potent story and contains within it a very useful lesson for us. In general, we need to stop spending so much money on beautifying our mosques and, instead, spend it on things which actually matter, which the Qur'an commands us to do, helping the orphans and the needy, educating those who don't have the means to do so themselves and so on. Your prayer will be just as valid in a mosque made of stone bricks as it will be in a mosque with all the flashy chandeliers that mosques today have come to adorn.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Khadim uz Zahra

[islam25]

2 hours ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

I was listening to a lecture yesterday and the scholar had a very interesting story to share (I don't know the history of it and haven't authenticated it but even if it was a fabrication - and, I trust the scholar that it's not - it still makes sense all the same):

He was talking about a saying from Imam Ali that Muslims should be careful of having the Qur'an in their hands but letting others walk in its path. To make the point, he referenced some Grand Rabbi from Israel. When the state of Israel was created, people came to him and asked him to help create the most magnificent synagogue under his supervision, one that would put any mosque, temple or church to shame. And, the Rabbi replied by asking them what they thought the worth of such a synagogue, even if he made one entirely out of diamonds, would be in the eyes of God, He who created the Universe? The scholar finished by saying that these Jews instead invested their money in education and, so, walked in the path of the Qur'an, while we are still stuck a century behind them.

It's a very potent story and contains within it a very useful lesson for us. In general, we need to stop spending so much money on beautifying our mosques and, instead, spend it on things which actually matter, which the Qur'an commands us to do, helping the orphans and the needy, educating those who don't have the means to do so themselves and so on. Your prayer will be just as valid in a mosque made of stone bricks as it will be in a mosque with all the flashy chandeliers that mosques today have come to adorn.

Prosperity of a nation depends about the people of the nations. 

If people are good, honest and hardworking the nation would be prosperous and happy. 

And if people are dishonest, corrupti and waiting for others to help then they definitely face poverty and hunger. Religion is no major play in it.

[Haydar Husayn]

On 05/06/2017 at 11:10 PM, Sindbad05 said:

Akhi you are not using your eyes and intellect properly, disbelievers kill and do not erect mosque whom they disbelieve in. So, you should see that what they did, are edifices errected or graves for showing enmity towards those who are in graves or remembering them ? 

Please have use some reason bro. If you do not like Shrines, and Allah praises such act that out of their respect they were saying to erect edifices, it does not mean that you are right and Allah AWJ is wrong. bro  

Just because people 'believe' in someone, it doesn't make them believers. Christians 'believe' in Jesus, but they have the wrong beliefs about him, and so we wouldn't call them believers.

[Sindbad05]

1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Just because people 'believe' in someone, it doesn't make them believers. Christians 'believe' in Jesus, but they have the wrong beliefs about him, and so we wouldn't call them believers.

Brother, your such statement has no relevance here. Have you ever saw that a Christian would come to Shrine of Prophet PBUHHP and spend money to erect some facilities for the people visiting that place ? No one will do that except the one who believes in Prophet Muhammad PBUHHP as the real Prophet and have faith in his personality that he pbuhhp is a miraculous personality. So, instead of trying to say that "Wahabbis" did correct by destroying "graves and shirnes" of religious personalities and violated the sanctity of Holy places which is actually a sign of infidelity, one should defend the sanctity of the holy places. 

[Haydar Husayn]

2 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Brother, your such statement has no relevance here. Have you ever saw that a Christian would come to Shrine of Prophet PBUHHP and spend money to erect some facilities for the people visiting that place ? No one will do that except the one who believes in Prophet Muhammad PBUHHP as the real Prophet and have faith in his personality that he pbuhhp is a miraculous personality. So, instead of trying to say that "Wahabbis" did correct by destroying "graves and shirnes" of religious personalities and violated the sanctity of Holy places which is actually a sign of infidelity, one should defend the sanctity of the holy places. 

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. The point that is been made is the fact that people erect a shrine for a holy personality doesn't necessarily mean that they are believers in the sense that we would understand it. So if you want to prove they were believers you need a different argument. Even if it can be proved they are believers, it still wouldn't necessarily prove that we can build shrines, because their shariah could be different to ours.

[Sumerian]

14 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. The point that is been made is the fact that people erect a shrine for a holy personality doesn't necessarily mean that they are believers in the sense that we would understand it. So if you want to prove they were believers you need a different argument. Even if it can be proved they are believers, it still wouldn't necessarily prove that we can build shrines, because their shariah could be different to ours.

The standard in the Shari'ah is that everything is mubah until proven otherwise. 

[Sindbad05]

15 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. The point that is been made is the fact that people erect a shrine for a holy personality doesn't necessarily mean that they are believers in the sense that we would understand it. So if you want to prove they were believers you need a different argument. Even if it can be proved they are believers, it still wouldn't necessarily prove that we can build shrines, because their shariah could be different to ours.

Respecting the signs of Allah shows that there is belief in the heart of a person. However, you cannot prove that their respect implies towards disbelief because it is the sign of believer to respect the thing that inspires him. So, you are on wrong side bro. 

Neither in the verse Allah AWJ says that they did a wrong thing by saying to construct edifices and if there is nothing against in the Quran, it is permissible. 

[Haji 2003]

On 5/25/2017 at 3:32 PM, Guest Anonymous said:

Why are the shrines of the Shia (for example in Iraq) so grand and majestic when there are poor people everywhere?

Shrines represent social space.

They are where vast numbers of people go to socialise, pray, meditate and so on. They are political and social symbols as well as religious ones. They are national monuments, places of worship and tourist attractions all rolled into one.

Taking into account all the functions that they serve, for the vast numbers they cater to, the cost of decorating them is very small indeed.