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In the Name of God بسم الله

I will enter the virtual Sunni world in disguise

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Faruk

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16 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

There were many people who were like Abu Hurairah and ibn Sabah was one like that. If you say that fighting along Ali ibn Abu Talib was the criteria for being his follower, I would tell you that Shimr ibn Ziljoushan fought under the banner of Imam Ali a.s at Siffin but later violated the allegiance and also murdered Imam Hussain a.s like Bibi Ayesha and Talha and Zubayr who paid allegiance to Imam Ali a.s but later waged war against Imam Ali a.s. 

First confirm whether he existed or not ? If yes then what do you think about what is recorded about Ibn saba in Rijaal al Kashi ?

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16 hours ago, Faruk said:

No it's about contradictions between historical sources and ideological sources. All the ahaadith which indicate that Abu Bakr was chosen by the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. for example weren't mentioned at Saqifah. The only thing he (Abu Bakr) put forward was his relationship to Quraish and his being one of the first muslims.

Why didn't he put forward the content of the fairy tale ahaadith that appeared later on? And it seems those present at Saqifah didn't knew about these ahaadith as well just like he himself didn;t knew about them.

The diffirence between you and me is that when I claim something, I have the arguments and proofs as well.

Your claims stay most of the time just claims. Calling people deviants without giving one valid reason or strong proof.

I can say the same, It proves nothing. 

 

16 hours ago, Faruk said:

I doubt every book after the Quran. And what about you? Do you believe in Asma ur Rijaal to be 100% procent reliable?

If not then think before you talk.

No Book beside the Holy Qu`ran is 100% correct so we should not trust them ? Is that what your logic says ?

Then you are not a Shi`a. Because even the names of the alleged 12 divinely appointed Imams are not mentioned in the Qu`ran. 

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18 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Abu bakar said prophets do not have heirs who .may inherit them and on one hand opposed Quran and on other hand wanted to say that Syeda Zahra was saying untruth? 

 

Saying the Prophets do not have heirs makes no sense. Please go back and read the narration again. 

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20 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Abu bakar said prophets do not have heirs who .may inherit them and on one hand opposed Quran and on other hand wanted to say that Syeda Zahra was saying untruth? 

 

Ayatollah Khomeini’s book: الحكومة الإسلامية الخميني صفحة93

(Al-Hukamah Al Islamiyyah, page 93):


Abu Abdullah (Ja’far Al-Sadiq) (ع) said that the Messenger of Allah (ص) said: “[…] verily, the scholars are the INHERITORS of the Prophets, and the Prophets DO NOT leave dinars and dirhams (i.e. money/wealth) as inheritance but they leave behind knowledge so whoever takes from it then he has acquired a huge fortune.”

Ayatollah Khomeini’s comment: This Hadith is SAHIH (authentic). Even Mullah Baqir Al-Majlisi authenticated the Hadith.

post-5632-0-76917700-1323159589.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Did he lied to them ? Did he said he did not break those idols ?

He did not lied but he did confused them with his act and revealed to them their weakness.  Infact, Shias under Taqqayah do not lie as well, it is their way that you can't understand and I don't want to tell :D

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Al-Zuhri narrated from ‘Urwa that narrated 'Aisha: Fatima and Al 'Abbas came to Abu Bakr, seeking their share from the property of Allah's Messenger and at that time, they were asking for their land at Fadak and their share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them, " I have heard from Allah's Messenger saying, 'Our property cannot be inherited, and whatever we leave is to be spent in charity, but the family of Muhammad may take their provisions from this property." Abu Bakr added, "By Allah, I will not leave the procedure I saw Allah's Messenger following during his lifetime concerning this property." He said:  Therefore Fatima left Abu Bakr and did not speak to him till she died.[1]

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Just now, Sindbad05 said:

He did not lied but he did confused them with his act and revealed to them their weakness.  Infact, Shias under Taqqayah do not lie as well, it is their way that you can't understand and I don't want to tell :D

Shi`as under Taqqiyah do not deny that they are Shi`a ?

Prophet Ibrahim (Peace be upon him) did not lied therefore he didn`t do Taqiyyah. 

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2 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Al-Zuhri narrated from ‘Urwa that narrated 'Aisha: Fatima and Al 'Abbas came to Abu Bakr, seeking their share from the property of Allah's Messenger and at that time, they were asking for their land at Fadak and their share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them, " I have heard from Allah's Messenger saying, 'Our property cannot be inherited, and whatever we leave is to be spent in charity, but the family of Muhammad may take their provisions from this property." Abu Bakr added, "By Allah, I will not leave the procedure I saw Allah's Messenger following during his lifetime concerning this property." He said:  Therefore Fatima left Abu Bakr and did not speak to him till she died.[1]

It only confirms what your own Ayatollahs and marja reported and authenticated. 

But what you were saying was that Prophets don`t leave behind any heirs to succeed them. 

NOTE she died just a few months after this incident. 

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4 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Shi`as under Taqqiyah do not deny that they are Shi`a ?

Prophet Ibrahim (Peace be upon him) did not lied therefore he didn`t do Taqiyyah. 

We do not lie in Taqqayah but it is something which you don't understand, it is like example of Khidr and Moses :) 

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1 minute ago, Sindbad05 said:

We do not lie in Taqqayah but it is something which you don't understand, it is like example of Khidr and Moses :) 

So Shi`as who practice Taqiyyah do not deny (lie) the fact that they are Shi`as ? That is new. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Ayatollah Khomeini’s book: الحكومة الإسلامية الخميني صفحة93

(Al-Hukamah Al Islamiyyah, page 93):


Abu Abdullah (Ja’far Al-Sadiq) (ع) said that the Messenger of Allah (ص) said: “[…] verily, the scholars are the INHERITORS of the Prophets, and the Prophets DO NOT leave dinars and dirhams (i.e. money/wealth) as inheritance but they leave behind knowledge so whoever takes from it then he has acquired a huge fortune.”

Ayatollah Khomeini’s comment: This Hadith is SAHIH (authentic). Even Mullah Baqir Al-Majlisi authenticated the Hadith.

post-5632-0-76917700-1323159589.jpg

May Allah AWJ grant blessings upon the personality of Ayotullah Rohullah Khomeini, I have heard many lies against him and this thing I would also investigate and tell you about it when I read the book because I do not trust what you get from internet until I read the book myself and understand what it means. Insha-Allah, I will prove you wrong about this allegation. 

Nevertheless, before that I do, I must tell you something from narrations as well. It was narrated by Abbas, uncle of Prophet PBUHHP himself that on the death bed Prophet PBUHHP asked him that he had left a debt and certain responsibilities upon which Abbas a.s said that I am unable to fulfill those things and therefore Prophet asked Imam Ali a.s and Imam Ali a.s said that I will repay your debt and your responsibilities. Prophet PBUHHP gave him his sword, the horse and she-camel which is off-course inheritance. So, how did Prophet went against his own quote ? 

Secondly, above hadith mentions that Abbas and Syeda Zahra a.s came to Abu Bakar and Abu Bakar said that he heard that Prophets do not leave property for heirs while Quran says that Zakariya asked for his heir? So, who you will call wrong. Was Syeda Zahra and Abbas wrong who were saying what Quran mentioned or Was Abu Bakar right who said against Quran ? 

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5 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:

So Shi`as who practice Taqiyyah do not deny (lie) the fact that they are Shi`as ? That is new. 

 

If you understand Taqqayah, Allah AWJ will also give you strength to keep it a secret :D 

I won't say anything about it but we follow what Prophet did and Taqqayah was adopted by Prophets as well. Moses lived under the palace of Pharaoh in Taqqayah, Prophet Hazqeel a.s also lived for some time under taqqayah as well. 

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We are certain that if Imām as-Sādiq (‘a) assigned these functions to
the fuqahā, neither his son Mūsā (‘a) nor any of the succeeding Imāms (‘a)
abrogated them. Indeed, it is not possible for them to have abrogate
these functions and said: “Henceforth, do not have recourse to the
just fuqahā for the settlement of your affairs; instead, turn to kings, or do
nothing at all and allow your rights to be trampled underfoot.”
Naturally, if an Imām appoints a judge to a certain city, his successor
may dismiss that judge and appoint another in his place, but the positions
and functions that have been established cannot themselves be abolished.
That is self-evident.
The tradition that I shall now quote supports the thesis I have been advancing.
If the only proof I had were one of the traditions I have been citing,
I would be unable to substantiate my claim. Its essence, however,
has been proved by the traditions already cited; what follows now is by
way of supplementary evidence. Imām as-Sādiq (‘a) relates that the
Prophet (s) said: “For whomever travels a path in search of knowledge,
God opens up a path to paradise, and the angels lower their wings before
him as a sign of their being well pleased [or God’s being well
pleased]. All that is in the heavens and on earth, even the fish in the
ocean, seeks forgiveness for him. The superiority of the learned man
over the mere worshipper is like that of the full moon over the stars.
Truly the scholars are the heirs of prophets (‘a); the prophets bequeathed
not a single dinār or dirham; instead they bequeathed knowledge, and
whoever acquires it has indeed acquired a generous portion of their legacy.”[
177]
The links in the chain of transmission of this tradition are all trustworthy;
in fact, Ibrāhīm ibn Hāshim, father of ‘Ali ibn Ibrāhīm, is not
moderately trustworthy but outstandingly so
. The same tradition has
been narrated with a slightly different text by another chain of transmission,
one that is sound as far as Abū ’l-Bukhtūri although Abū’l-Bukhtūri
himself is of questionable reliability
. Here is the second version of the
tradition: “Muhammad ibn Yahyā relates, on the authority of Ahmad ibn
Muhammad ibn Īsā, who was told it by Muhammad ibn Khālid, to
whom it was narrated by Abū ’l- Bukhtūri, that Imām Ja‘far as-Sādiq (‘a)
said: ‘The scholars are the heirs of the prophets, for although the prophets
bequeathed not a single dinār or dirham, they bequeathed their sayings
and traditions. Whoever, then, acquires a portion of their traditions
has indeed acquired a generous portion of their legacy. Therefore, see
from whom you may acquire this knowledge, for among us, the Family
of the Prophet, there are in each generation just and honest people who
will repel those who distort and exaggerate, those who initiate false practices,
and those who offer foolish interpretations [that is, they will purify
and protect religion from the influence of such biased and ignorant
people and others like them].’ ”[178]

 

Firstly, in the above verses, Ayotullah Rohullah Khomeini speaks in the context of Ulemas and their importance. While mentioning those Hadith, Ayotullah Rohullah Khomeini questions reliability of narrator in those hadith as well as highlighted in the Red.

Prophets have two kinds of wealth one is tangible wealth that includes property or belonging and one is intangible wealth that is knowledge and wisdom.  Every Prophet has tried to give away their wealth to two heads that are  in the name of poor and needy in their lives and whatever was left they distributed it among their heirs as was the decree of Allah AWJ that asked his creation do not leave your kinsmen without anything which may lead them to beg others or look out for help. However, Prophet do also have wealth of knowledge and Wisdom which they also dispensed among both poor and needy of his nation and among his heirs too. It was narrated by Prophet PBUHHP that of all parts of knowledge Ali a.s inheirts all parts except one and even in that part Ali a.s inherits majority portion. The reason of this is that Imam Ali a.s had the responsibility of vicegerent after him and every Imam inherited same thing, however, Ulemas do inherit from Prophet pbuhhp and even today, Imam e Zaman a.s give away from his knowledge whenever he a.s find that one among my Ulema needs answers so Imam e Zamana a.s look after those ulemas. 

Ayotullah Rohullah Khomeini mentions that Ulemas are means to the nearness of Imams which is true because they write books and through them the quotes of Imams reach us. However, if any Ulemas thinks that he is the soul inheritor of knowledge and Ahlebait a.s are not then Allah AWJ takes away from him what He AWJ gave him before and brings another better person who may fulfil the duty to convey the message of Imams to people. It is like messengers, So, Ulemas do play the role of Messengers but Head of the Communication department is Imam Mehdi a.s, anyone who questions him is out of Job. 

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1 hour ago, Student_of_Deen said:

First confirm whether he existed or not ? If yes then what do you think about what is recorded about Ibn saba in Rijaal al Kashi ?

 

:bismillah:

The Shi'i sources mention that Ibn Saba was from the Ghullat and believed in the divinity of Imam Ali A.S. The rumour that he was the person who started believing in the Imamate of Ahlulbayt A.S comes from weak sources (If I remember correctly, all go back to the same person in Sunni sources). 

 

1.) حدثني محمد بن قولويه، قال حدثني سعد بن عبد الله، قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد و محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، قال : سمعت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) يقول و هو يحدث أصحابه بحديث عبد الله بن سبإ و ما ادعى من الربوبية في أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب، فقال إنه لما ادعى ذلك فيه استتابه أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) فأبى أن يتوب فأحرقه بالنار.
Hishaam bin Salim, who said that he heard it from Imam Aboo `Abd Allaah (AS) when he told that `Abd Allaah bin Saba called (to people) the lordship/divinity of Imaam `Alee (AS). Upon that ‘Alee ordered him to repent, but he refused. Then Ali let him burn in fire."
Source:
·         Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 107, hadeeth # 171

 
2.) حدثني محمد بن قولويه قال حدثني سعد بن عبد الله قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد و محمد بن عيسى عن علي بن مهزيار عن فضالة بن أيوب الأزدي عن أبان بن عثمان قال سمعت أبا عبد الله (ع) يقول لعن الله عبد الله بن سبإ إنه ادعى الربوبية في أمير المؤمنين (ع) و كان و الله أمير المؤمنين (ع) عبدا لله طائعا الويل لمن كذب علينا و إن قوما يقولون فينا ما لا نقوله في أنفسنا نبرأ إلى الله منهم نبرأ إلى الله منهم.
I heard Aboo `Abd Allaah (AS) saying: 'May Allaah curse `Abd Allaah bin Saba, he claimed a divinity / lordship for Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (AS). By Allaah, Amierul-Mu'mineen (AS) was volunterily the slave of Allah. Woe to him who lie about us, for there are people who say about us what we don't say about ourselves, we disassociate ourselves to Allah from them, we disassociate ourselves to Allah from them'."
Source:
·         Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 107, hadeeth # 172



Here is another SaHeeH hadeeth about Ibn Saba, and him being cursed.
3.)و بهذا الإسناد عن يعقوب بن يزيد عن ابن أبي عمير. و أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن أبيه و الحسين بن سعيد عن ابن أبي عمير عن هشام بن سالم عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال قال علي بن الحسين (ع) لعن الله من كذب علينا إني ذكرت عبد الله بن سبإ فقامت كل شعرة في جسدي لقد ادعى أمرا عظيما ما له لعنه الله كان علي (ع) و الله عبدا لله صالحا أخو رسول الله (ص) ما نال الكرامة من الله إلا بطاعته لله و لرسوله و ما نال رسول الله (ص) الكرامة من الله إلا بطاعته.
'May the curse of Allah be upon those who tell lies about us. I mentioned `Abd Allaah Ibn Saba and each hair in my body stood up, Allah cursed him. Ali was, by Allah, a proper servant of Allah, the brother of the Messenger of Allah . He did not earn the graciousness/honor from Allah except with the obedience to Allah and His Messenger. And (similarly) the Messenger of Allah did not earn the honor from Allah except with his obedience to Allah'."
Source:
·         Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 107, hadeeth # 173
 
 
Regarding your quotation from Al-Kashee:
 
ذكر بعض أهل العلم أن عبد الله بن سبإ كان يهوديا فأسلم و والى عليا (ع) و كان يقول و هو على يهوديته في يوشع بن نون وصي موسى بالغلو فقال في إسلامه بعد وفاة رسول الله (ص) في علي (ع) مثل ذلك و كان أول من شهر بالقول بفرض إمامة علي و أظهر البراءة من أعدائه و كاشف مخالفيه و أكفرهم فمن هاهنا قال من خالف الشيعة أصل التشيع و الرفض مأخوذ من اليهودية.
Some people of knowledge mentioned that `Abd Allaah bin Saba' was a Jew, who embraced Islam and supported Ali. While he was still a Jew, he used to go to extremism in calling Yousha' bin Noon as the appointee (successor) of Moses, thus after embracing Islam - after the demise of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله - he said the like about Ali. It was him who first publicly announced the mandatory Imaamah for Ali, rejected and disowned his enemies, debated his opponents and called them Kafirs. Hence, those who oppose the Shi'ites often say: The Shee`ah and Rejectors (Rafidah) have their roots in Judaism ".
Source:
·         Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 107, hadeeth # 174

Some scholars have claimed that these are the words Al-Kashee, even if we take this into consideration, this statement is still rejected as there are MANY SaHeeH narrations saying that ‘Abd Allaah bin Saba called people to the divinity of Imaam `Alee (AS), not his Imaamah.

As you can see, ‘Abd Allaah bin Saba is a guy who has been cursed, by our Imaams (AS), because he tried to preach to the people the divinity of Imaam `Alee, and NOT the Imaamah of Imaam `Alee (AS), as this has been circulating the internet.
 
 
It is not a hadith, Al-Kashe just said what some people of knowledge at that time were saying about Ibn Saba. The authentic sources mention him as a man who believed Imam Ali A.S to be God (Stagfurallah) and he considered himself as a Prophet. He is cursed by the Imams A.S and our scholars as well.
 
Wsalam
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12 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Mu`awiyah fought against Ali (May Allah be pleased with them both) therefore he is a Munafiq.

Your own ahaadith confirm this. I may quote them again if you want. The bottom line is that whoever has a grudge against Imam Ali a.s. is a hypocrite let alone one who fights him a.s.

 

 

12 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Egyptian & Iraqi rebels besieged Madinah and killed Uthman (May Allah be pleased with him) but they are freedom fighters and heroes of Islam. 

The policy of Uthman was bad. He became a nepotist.

Imam Ali a.s. was chosen by the majority of the Muhajirin and Ansar in a legitimate way.

Muawiya always pretended as if it was for the killing of Uthman but his real aim was the kursi which became manifest during the caliphate of Imam Hassan a.s.

Edited by Faruk
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13 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

I can say the same, It proves nothing. 

So you actually are saying that the super-natural indications weren't mentioned in Saqifah proves nothing?
 

 

13 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

No Book beside the Holy Qu`ran is 100% correct so we should not trust them ? Is that what your logic says ?

No that is what you say. I say that we should investigate and analyze them thoroughly not only inside the boundaries of ones sect but also in the light of Quran, Islamic history and reason.

My problem with the Ahl as-Sunnah is that they are afraid to be critical and do not recognize the enemy.

 

13 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Then you are not a Shi`a. Because even the names of the alleged 12 divinely appointed Imams are not mentioned in the Qu`ran. 

Abu Bakr isn't mentioned in Quran as well. If it was about the mentioning of names a lot of personalities would disappear.

I am not a Shia you're right. I'm a muslim and I do follow the Sunnah through the Aale Muhammad a.s. because Allah commaned us to do so and because they have a status above the Sahaba.

My proof is the salawat. They are mentioned right after Muhammad s.a.w.a.s., have a purified status, do not receive sadaqa and they're the ancestors of the Mehdi who is the savior of the Ummah (through Allah).

So how can you curse and fight those people? If you do that you do not love Allah. Same for those who love or defend their cursers and killers.

 

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19 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

While he was still a Jew, he used to go to extremism in calling Yousha' bin Noon as the appointee (successor) of Moses

Youshua, ibn. Noun was successor to Prophet Moses a.s, it is what I saw mentioned by Imam Ali a.s. There is no wrong in it. However, calling Imam Ali a.s as God was a real Shirk which made his Iman invalidated. Many other Companions of Prophets were converted from Jews and they turned out to be extraordinary persons. 

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18 hours ago, Faruk said:

So you actually are saying that the super-natural indications weren't mentioned in Saqifah proves nothing

Please explain further

 

18 hours ago, Faruk said:

No that is what you say.

That is what I say ? You`re the one accepting and rejecting narrations based on your own preferences. 

 

18 hours ago, Faruk said:

My problem with the Ahl as-Sunnah is that they are afraid to be critical

Afraid to be critical of whom ? We do not say Sahaba were Infallibles, You do. 

 

18 hours ago, Faruk said:

Abu Bakr isn't mentioned in Quran as well. If it was about the mentioning of names a lot of personalities would disappear.
 

Yes but Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him) is not a pillar of faith either. A person can be a Muslim even if he doesn`t know him. 

 

18 hours ago, Faruk said:

I am not a Shia you're right. I'm a muslim and I do follow the Sunnah through the Aale Muhammad a.s. because Allah commaned us to do so and because they have a status above the Sahaba.

Doesn`t matter what you call yourself. You will be associated with whose`s beliefs you share. 

You can`t even deny Ahlul Bayt. First define them before you classify them superior than others.

 

18 hours ago, Faruk said:

My proof is the salawat. They are mentioned right after Muhammad s.a.w.a.s., have a purified status, do not receive sadaqa and they're the ancestors of the Mehdi who is the savior of the Ummah (through Allah).

Okay then what do you say about this ? 

Allaah, the Exalted said:

 

qnstart.gif إِلاَّ تَنصُرُوهُ فَقَدْ نَصَرَهُ اللّهُ إِذْ أَخْرَجَهُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ ثَانِيَ اثْنَيْنِ إِذْ هُمَا فِي الْغَارِ إِذْ يَقُولُ لِصَاحِبِهِ لاَ تَحْزَنْ إِنَّ اللّهَ مَعَنَا فَأَنزَلَ اللّهُ سَكِينَتَهُ عَلَيْهِ وَأَيَّدَهُ بِجُنُودٍ لَّمْ تَرَوْهَا وَجَعَلَ كَلِمَةَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ السُّفْلَى وَكَلِمَةُ اللّهِ هِيَ الْعُلْيَا وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ qnend.gif

 

qnstart.gif If you help him (Muhammad) not (it does not matter), for Allah did indeed help him when the disbelievers drove him out, the second of two, when they both [Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him and Abu Bakr] were in the cave, and he said to his companion [Abu Bakr]: "Be not sad (or afraid), surely Allah is with us." Then Allah sent down His calmness upon him, and strengthened him with forces which you saw not, and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowermost, while it was the Word of Allah that became the uppermost, and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise." (At-Tawbah 9:40) qnend.gif
 
18 hours ago, Faruk said:

So how can you curse and fight those people? If you do that you do not love Allah. Same for those who love or defend their cursers and killers.

I agree, that is why I don`t do any of it. 

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11 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Youshua, ibn. Noun was successor to Prophet Moses a.s, it is what I saw mentioned by Imam Ali a.s. There is no wrong in it. However, calling Imam Ali a.s as God was a real Shirk which made his Iman invalidated.

the point of the narration is that he used to Ghuluw (exaggeration) from the start. 

 

11 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

 Many other Companions of Prophets were converted from Jews and they turned out to be extraordinary persons. 

Yes that is true brother, many great companions were Jewish reverts including Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him).

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3 minutes ago, Student_of_Deen said:
qnstart.gif If you help him (Muhammad) not (it does not matter), for Allah did indeed help him when the disbelievers drove him out, the second of two, when they both [Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him and Abu Bakr] were in the cave, and he said to his companion [Abu Bakr]: "Be not sad (or afraid), surely Allah is with us." Then Allah sent down His calmness upon him, and strengthened him with forces which you saw not, and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowermost, while it was the Word of Allah that became the uppermost, and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise." (At-Tawbah 9:40) qnend.gif
 

This means that "O! Muhammad, when you helped him, it was, indeed, Allah AWJ who actually helped him". It is also mentioned in a various verses where whenever Muslims earned victory, Allah AWJ said them that it was I who helped them and for Prophets Allah AWJ mentions the same way. In a verse, Allah says to Prophet PBUHHP that if I had not made you kind and sweet tongue, these infidels would not have drawn towards you. So, all credit to Allah. bro. :D

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1 minute ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Yes that is true brother, many great companions were Jewish reverts including Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him).

Abu Hurairah was liar according to Hazrat Ayesha (r.a). 

Edited by Sindbad05
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Just now, Sindbad05 said:

This means that "O! Muhammad, when you helped him, it was, indeed, Allah AWJ who actually helped him". It is also mentioned in a various verses where whenever Muslims earned victory, Allah AWJ said them that it was I who helped them and for Prophets Allah AWJ mentions the same way. In a verse, Allah says to Prophet PBUHHP that if I had not made you kind and sweet tongue, these infidels would not have drawn towards you. So, all credit to Allah. bro. :D

All credits always goes to Allah subhana watala. 

 

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Prophets have always helped his enemies in their lives, Prophet Moses helped Pharoah and Qaroon by telling them messages of God. It is , indeed, Allah AWJ who has always been graceful towards his enemies but His enemies could not see His greatness due to fold of ignorance which weakened their eman. 

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3 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Please explain further

I'm not responsible for someone who did not do his homework. If you want to discuss sectarian matters you should be known with basic knowledge. It also appeared that your immune to any sahih ahaadith quoted.

What I meant is that some sunni's claim that the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. appointed Abu Bakr or made strong indications that he should become the first caliph.

These claims were not used by Abu Bakr at Saqifah while if he did it would make his claim much easier so why didn't he? Or where these stories made later up to strengthen the legitimacy of his caliphate?

 

3 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

That is what I say ? You`re the one accepting and rejecting narrations based on your own preferences. 

I am accepting and rejecting narrations based on my own re-search. While Ahlus Sunnah is rejecting and accepting according to their invented dogma's that favored those who cursed the Ahl al-Bayt.

I actually rejected nothing. All I did was representing sahih sunni ahaadith. And in reaction to these you downplayed them as is Always the case when your venerated personalities are in danger.

When a hadith is sahih and not in favor of your dogma there are always the same awnsers:

1) wrong interpretation

2) the chain is not strong

3) other hadith even weak ones are the proof that the sahih hadith has no value.
 

 

3 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Afraid to be critical of whom ? We do not say Sahaba were Infallibles, You do. 

They are not considered to be infallible. They are considered to make mistakes and even grave errors and sins without being held accountable for it.
 

 

3 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Yes but Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him) is not a pillar of faith either. A person can be a Muslim even if he doesn`t know him. 

My point was that the Quran can mention people without calling their names. This counts for the Imams but also for certain Sahaba and other people. Names not being mentioned doesn't invalidate certain concepts or events concerning people.
 

 

3 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Doesn`t matter what you call yourself. You will be associated with whose`s beliefs you share. 

My beliefs are mentioned in your own sahih ahaadith and traditions. And indeed you will be associated with those whose beliefs you share. I share the beliefs of the Aale Muhammad and their allies. Not of those who rejected and condemned them.
 

 

3 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

You can`t even define Ahlul Bayt. First define them before you classify them superior than others.

The ones who do not agree about who they are are the Ahlus Sunnah. For those who are called Shia it's clear.

They are however superior to the Sahaba as the salawat is only for the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. and for his family a.s.

Not for Abu bakr, not for Umar. Not even for Salman al-Farisi or Abu Dharr r.a.
 

 

3 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

Okay then what do you say about this ? 

Allaah, the Exalted said:

 

qnstart.gif إِلاَّ تَنصُرُوهُ فَقَدْ نَصَرَهُ اللّهُ إِذْ أَخْرَجَهُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ ثَانِيَ اثْنَيْنِ إِذْ هُمَا فِي الْغَارِ إِذْ يَقُولُ لِصَاحِبِهِ لاَ تَحْزَنْ إِنَّ اللّهَ مَعَنَا فَأَنزَلَ اللّهُ سَكِينَتَهُ عَلَيْهِ وَأَيَّدَهُ بِجُنُودٍ لَّمْ تَرَوْهَا وَجَعَلَ كَلِمَةَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ السُّفْلَى وَكَلِمَةُ اللّهِ هِيَ الْعُلْيَا وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ qnend.gif

 

qnstart.gif If you help him (Muhammad) not (it does not matter), for Allah did indeed help him when the disbelievers drove him out, the second of two, when they both [Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him and Abu Bakr] were in the cave, and he said to his companion [Abu Bakr]: "Be not sad (or afraid), surely Allah is with us." Then Allah sent down His calmness upon him, and strengthened him with forces which you saw not, and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowermost, while it was the Word of Allah that became the uppermost, and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise." (At-Tawbah 9:40) qnend.gif



I can say a few things about this verse.

With 'him' the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. is meant and not Abu Bakr. You will understand this when you read the first sentence of the verse and the rest of the verse as an explanation of the first sentence which is:

If you help him (Muhammad) not (it does not matter), for Allah did indeed help him when the disbelievers drove him out ..  And then it continues with the story in the cave and how Allah helped him (the Prophet s.a.w.a.s.) by sending angels as protectors and strengtheners.

Second of all my dear brother,

If you want to call it a virtue that Abu Bakr performed Hijra with the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. which is indeed to be called as such then what About Imam Ali a.s. who was laying willingly in the bed of the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. with the risk being killed by those who took the oath to kill the latter without fearing death like Ismail not fearing death when his father Ibrahim a.s. was being tested.

 

3 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

I agree, that is why I don`t do any of it. 

If you call Muawiya your Ameer then you actually did.

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On 08/05/2017 at 3:36 PM, Sindbad05 said:

May Allah AWJ grant blessings upon the personality of Ayotullah Rohullah Khomeini, I have heard many lies against him and this thing I would also investigate and tell you about it when I read the book because I do not trust what you get from internet until I read the book myself and understand what it means. Insha-Allah, I will prove you wrong about this allegation. 

Okay go ahead prove me wrong. :D

 

On 08/05/2017 at 3:36 PM, Sindbad05 said:

Nevertheless, before that I do, I must tell you something from narrations as well. It was narrated by Abbas, uncle of Prophet PBUHHP himself that on the death bed Prophet PBUHHP asked him that he had left a debt and certain responsibilities upon which Abbas a.s said that I am unable to fulfill those things and therefore Prophet asked Imam Ali a.s and Imam Ali a.s said that I will repay your debt and your responsibilities. Prophet PBUHHP gave him his sword, the horse and she-camel which is off-course inheritance. So, how did Prophet went against his own quote ? 

Secondly, above hadith mentions that Abbas and Syeda Zahra a.s came to Abu Bakar and Abu Bakar said that he heard that Prophets do not leave property for heirs while Quran says that Zakariya asked for his heir? So, who you will call wrong. Was Syeda Zahra and Abbas wrong who were saying what Quran mentioned or Was Abu Bakar right who said against Quran ? 

 

First of all, Was Abbas (May Allah be pleased with him) a poor man that he said he couldn`t repay the Prophet`s (Peace be upon him) debts ?

Secondly, I don`t know how many times I got to tell you but READ THE HADITH AGAIN. Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him) did not denied that Prophets have heirs. But the heirs of the Prophets are those who inherit their knowledge and spread it. 

Zakariya (Alayhis Salaam) asked for a heir because he was afraid he will die and no one will be left to carry his legacy and call the children of Israel to the straight path of Allah. He did not asked for a son to inherit his property. 

 

On 08/05/2017 at 3:42 PM, Sindbad05 said:

I got the book in English please tell me chapter number and topic after which topic it comes ? 

I don`t know about the English version. Can you ask some Shi`a chat chat users who have it in Arabic so they can confirm ? I`m sure someone should have it on this forum. 

 

On 08/05/2017 at 4:04 PM, Sindbad05 said:

We are certain that if Imām as-Sādiq (‘a) assigned these functions to
the fuqahā, neither his son Mūsā (‘a) nor any of the succeeding Imāms (‘a)
abrogated them. Indeed, it is not possible for them to have abrogate
these functions and said: “Henceforth, do not have recourse to the
just fuqahā for the settlement of your affairs; instead, turn to kings, or do
nothing at all and allow your rights to be trampled underfoot.”
Naturally, if an Imām appoints a judge to a certain city, his successor
may dismiss that judge and appoint another in his place, but the positions
and functions that have been established cannot themselves be abolished.
That is self-evident.
The tradition that I shall now quote supports the thesis I have been advancing.
If the only proof I had were one of the traditions I have been citing,
I would be unable to substantiate my claim. Its essence, however,
has been proved by the traditions already cited; what follows now is by
way of supplementary evidence. Imām as-Sādiq (‘a) relates that the
Prophet (s) said: “For whomever travels a path in search of knowledge,
God opens up a path to paradise, and the angels lower their wings before
him as a sign of their being well pleased [or God’s being well
pleased]. All that is in the heavens and on earth, even the fish in the
ocean, seeks forgiveness for him. The superiority of the learned man
over the mere worshipper is like that of the full moon over the stars.
Truly the scholars are the heirs of prophets (‘a); the prophets bequeathed
not a single dinār or dirham; instead they bequeathed knowledge, and
whoever acquires it has indeed acquired a generous portion of their legacy.”[
177]
The links in the chain of transmission of this tradition are all trustworthy;
in fact, Ibrāhīm ibn Hāshim, father of ‘Ali ibn Ibrāhīm, is not
moderately trustworthy but outstandingly so
. The same tradition has
been narrated with a slightly different text by another chain of transmission,
one that is sound as far as Abū ’l-Bukhtūri although Abū’l-Bukhtūri
himself is of questionable reliability
. Here is the second version of the
tradition: “Muhammad ibn Yahyā relates, on the authority of Ahmad ibn
Muhammad ibn Īsā, who was told it by Muhammad ibn Khālid, to
whom it was narrated by Abū ’l- Bukhtūri, that Imām Ja‘far as-Sādiq (‘a)
said: ‘The scholars are the heirs of the prophets, for although the prophets
bequeathed not a single dinār or dirham, they bequeathed their sayings
and traditions. Whoever, then, acquires a portion of their traditions
has indeed acquired a generous portion of their legacy. Therefore, see
from whom you may acquire this knowledge, for among us, the Family
of the Prophet, there are in each generation just and honest people who
will repel those who distort and exaggerate, those who initiate false practices,
and those who offer foolish interpretations [that is, they will purify
and protect religion from the influence of such biased and ignorant
people and others like them].’ ”[178]

 

Firstly, in the above verses, Ayotullah Rohullah Khomeini speaks in the context of Ulemas and their importance. While mentioning those Hadith, Ayotullah Rohullah Khomeini questions reliability of narrator in those hadith as well as highlighted in the Red.

Prophets have two kinds of wealth one is tangible wealth that includes property or belonging and one is intangible wealth that is knowledge and wisdom.  Every Prophet has tried to give away their wealth to two heads that are  in the name of poor and needy in their lives and whatever was left they distributed it among their heirs as was the decree of Allah AWJ that asked his creation do not leave your kinsmen without anything which may lead them to beg others or look out for help. However, Prophet do also have wealth of knowledge and Wisdom which they also dispensed among both poor and needy of his nation and among his heirs too. It was narrated by Prophet PBUHHP that of all parts of knowledge Ali a.s inheirts all parts except one and even in that part Ali a.s inherits majority portion. The reason of this is that Imam Ali a.s had the responsibility of vicegerent after him and every Imam inherited same thing, however, Ulemas do inherit from Prophet pbuhhp and even today, Imam e Zaman a.s give away from his knowledge whenever he a.s find that one among my Ulema needs answers so Imam e Zamana a.s look after those ulemas. 

Ayotullah Rohullah Khomeini mentions that Ulemas are means to the nearness of Imams which is true because they write books and through them the quotes of Imams reach us. However, if any Ulemas thinks that he is the soul inheritor of knowledge and Ahlebait a.s are not then Allah AWJ takes away from him what He AWJ gave him before and brings another better person who may fulfil the duty to convey the message of Imams to people. It is like messengers, So, Ulemas do play the role of Messengers but Head of the Communication department is Imam Mehdi a.s, anyone who questions him is out of Job. 

If this narrations is unauthentic then why do Shi`as use it against Abu Bakr (May Allah be pleased with him) ?

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On 08/05/2017 at 4:22 PM, The Straight Path said:

It is not a hadith, Al-Kashe just said what some people of knowledge at that time were saying about Ibn Saba. The authentic sources mention him as a man who believed Imam Ali A.S to be God (Stagfurallah) and he considered himself as a Prophet. He is cursed by the Imams A.S and our scholars as well.

 
Wsalam

Rijal al Kashi is a book of Asma ur Rijal, It`s NOT A BOOK OF HADITH.

It does contains ahadith but the primary function of this is to verify the status of narrators of hadith. 

 

On 08/05/2017 at 4:22 PM, The Straight Path said:

Regarding your quotation from Al-Kashee:

ذكر بعض أهل العلم أن عبد الله بن سبإ كان يهوديا فأسلم و والى عليا (ع) و كان يقول و هو على يهوديته في يوشع بن نون وصي موسى بالغلو فقال في إسلامه بعد وفاة رسول الله (ص) في علي (ع) مثل ذلك و كان أول من شهر بالقول بفرض إمامة علي و أظهر البراءة من أعدائه و كاشف مخالفيه و أكفرهم فمن هاهنا قال من خالف الشيعة أصل التشيع و الرفض مأخوذ من اليهودية.
Some people of knowledge mentioned that `Abd Allaah bin Saba' was a Jew, who embraced Islam and supported Ali. While he was still a Jew, he used to go to extremism in calling Yousha' bin Noon as the appointee (successor) of Moses, thus after embracing Islam - after the demise of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله - he said the like about Ali. It was him who first publicly announced the mandatory Imaamah for Ali, rejected and disowned his enemies, debated his opponents and called them Kafirs. Hence, those who oppose the Shi'ites often say: The Shee`ah and Rejectors (Rafidah) have their roots in Judaism ".
Source:
·         Al-Kashee, Rijaal, pg. 107, hadeeth # 174

Some scholars have claimed that these are the words Al-Kashee, even if we take this into consideration, this statement is still rejected as there are MANY SaHeeH narrations saying that ‘Abd Allaah bin Saba called people to the divinity of Imaam `Alee (AS), not his Imaamah.

As you can see, ‘Abd Allaah bin Saba is a guy who has been cursed, by our Imaams (AS), because he tried to preach to the people the divinity of Imaam `Alee, and NOT the Imaamah of Imaam `Alee (AS), as this has been circulating the internet.
 

I know but why are you rejecting the words of one of your most trustworthy scholars ? He was a scholar of Hadith and Asma ur rijal so obviously he didn`t made that up.

Don`t you think it is possible that first Ibn Saba invented Imamah then he later went on to proclaim Imam Ali (ra) as God`s incarnate on Earth (which is something that can be found in the Old Testament). 

 

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