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In the Name of God بسم الله

Trinity vs Unitarian Discussion - Is Jesus God

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19 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

Apologies I am genuinely puzzled, are saying the first Christians didnt believe that Jesus was a deity or did believe he was a deity

Gospel of John tell that his brothers did not believe Jesus. Gospel of Mark even say his Mother and brothers did not believe him. Now this was in the beginning of his ministry. After his ministry his brother James was the leader of the Christian Church in Jerusalem. He obviously chamged his mind. Not all did, but they were not Christians. Christians believed Jesus was divine.

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19 hours ago, andres said:

Gospel of John tell that his brothers did not believe Jesus. Gospel of Mark even say his Mother and brothers did not believe him. Now this was in the beginning of his ministry. After his ministry his brother James was the leader of the Christian Church in Jerusalem. He obviously chamged his mind. Not all did, but they were not Christians. Christians believed Jesus was divine.

Thanks Andres,

interesting parallels between Shia & Sunni. The companions claiming that they know Jesus better then the family and then going on to claim overall leadership of the Christian Church.

What evidence do you have that James ever accepted Jesus as a Deity.

The only writings I have read from James are the fragmented Apocalypse 1 & 2. Intriguing fragments that imply a different deeper teaching from Jesus.

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4 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

Thanks Andres,

interesting parallels between Shia & Sunni. The companions claiming that they know Jesus better then the family and then going on to claim overall leadership of the Christian Church.

What evidence do you have that James ever accepted Jesus as a Deity.

The only writings I have read from James are the fragmented Apocalypse 1 & 2. Intriguing fragments that imply a different deeper teaching from Jesus.

I have not heard of Apocalypse 1& 2. What is it? 

According to the historian Josefus, James was stoned to death by the Jews in 62AD for herasy.  He is not very well documented. The Bible say he was the brother of Jesus. However the Church decided Mary continued being a Virgin, wich forced the Church to determine James must have been a cousin or a half brother on Jesus fathers side. No matter the Church, personally I am rather certain that the Bible intends a brother of Jesus Christ. 

Paul knew him personally. They had a quarral about Jewish law, especially circumcision. It ended with a compromise. As I read it, Paul respected James as the leader of Christianity, and would not have disobeyed his descicion. Paul certainly did believe Jesus was divine, so him belonging to a Church that did not believe so, seems unlikely.

I am not a professor of this subject and it is a difficult one. I have read somewhere thay the Ebionites originated from the Church in Jerusalem.  Ebionites were regarded as heretic. They believed Jesus became divine when he was baptised by John. They also refused the Virgin birth

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I'm sitting here seeing both sides and thinking that there isn't even an agreement on how many people attended the council, how are you possibly going to know how many believed one thing and how many believed another? There's always room for argument when there is no definite answer. 

I believe what True Sunni is looking for is the point in history when trinity was conjured. I would say, from the time Thomas said "My Lord and my God".  

We know Athanasius was part of the council, we know he was a hard line trinitarian. He went into council as such, left as such, and taught it throughout the rest of his life. Considering he was 27 when he joined the council, he taught it for a long time. I can't say he was the sole teacher of the doctrine, but his influence was pretty wide spread. We did the history back on page 3.

One thing about all the controversy is that there is no way anyone would have been able to change any original scripture to suit their beliefs. 

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10 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

One thing about all the controversy is that there is no way anyone would have been able to change any original scripture to suit their beliefs. 

I agree. However the originals could (and has) been "changed" by accidents like copying errors, additions and lost parts. That is why old New Testament documents slightly differ. But these differences by no means change the message. I have read same kind of "accidents" happened to the Quran, but  not at all in the same extent. Muslims were much better organised than the persecuted Christians.

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On 5/31/2017 at 7:50 AM, A true Sunni said:

The only writings I have read from James are the fragmented Apocalypse 1 & 2. Intriguing fragments that imply a different deeper teaching from Jesus.

You never answered what those documents were. I found the texts in rnglish translation here:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/apocalypsejames1.html

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/apocalypsejames2.html

2nd Apocalyps being the oldest dated 120-180AD the historical value of describing James and his contemporaries is not the most reliable.  Even if some words and sentences are missing I would not describe them as "fragmented". What is it you find "intriguing" and "deeper teaching"?

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8 hours ago, baqar said:

Reference?

John 20 chapter. A famous story within Christianity.

So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
  After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
27 Then He *said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God
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On 5/31/2017 at 11:55 AM, andres said:

I am not a professor of this subject and it is a difficult one. I have read somewhere thay the Ebionites originated from the Church in Jerusalem.  Ebionites were regarded as heretic. They believed Jesus became divine when he was baptised by John. They also refused the Virgin birth

I think it's difficult to say what the Ebionites believed since they are now extinct. I agree Ebionites were regarded as Heretics but that just means that they were/are in the minority.

Shias are often called heretics and the proof that they are heretics given is that Sunnis are the majority

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1 hour ago, A true Sunni said:

I think it's difficult to say what the Ebionites believed since they are now extinct. I agree Ebionites were regarded as Heretics but that just means that they were/are in the minority.

Shias are often called heretics and the proof that they are heretics given is that Sunnis are the majority

Some of their beliefs are known, but not much. They refused Pauls teaching, so they must have regarded mainstream Christianity as heretic. Heresy was mutual. 

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