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In the Name of God بسم الله

What can be done to combat poverty?


notme

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All you can do is your best to contribute either by donations/help or by teaching a profession/creating jobs.

However, when you see the big picture, poverty in the world is highly tied to a corrupt world system that prefers to make bombs instead of schools (considering the latter is more effective than anything else) and invest over 6 trillion dollars (of public taxes) in condemning societies, destroying future, and creating terrorist groups.

With such a cancer in the world, I feel shame by the sole intention of suggesting or even thinking about how third world countries could confront their poverty.

Edited by Bakir
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Give Zakat and Khums. Also, help as many people as you can. Try to find needy people in your family, neighbourhood or community. If everyone should do their job the right way and be just to others I think we can finish poverty. Look at rich people getting rich because they are not performing their duties right. We should help people who are in need. 

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5 hours ago, notme said:

:salam:

In the Bible Jesus is reported to have told one of his followers "we will always have the poor" but do we have to? 

Salam Notme,

Poverty is a result of many factors, including human greed and natural catastrophes.

Jesus Christ knows that greed is a negative human condition and natural catastrophes will come.

Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places - Matthew 24:7 (NIV)

While granted this a very brief and general prophecy, it's definitely being fulfilled.  :(

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I've read that during a time in islamic history, it actually became difficult to find a poor person to give charity.

I personally find this claim very hard to believe (same as I would find it very hard to believe if this claim was made in Christian history). The fact is, there are always poor people somewhere in the world, due to the greed of other people and/or due to natural disasters - like earthquakes, famines, hurricanes, etc.

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Among certain ethnic communities today there is virtually no poverty.

Could you please give an example? Thanks.

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Can this lifestyle of helping and uplifting each other be done on a global scale?

Yes, but it requires a massive mentality change. It requires the 1%, as Sanders calls them, to voluntarily decide to give up much of "their" wealth and pass it around in a wise and fair way.

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If so, how do we overcome political, linguistic, and ideological boundaries, respecting differences but not allowing them to divide us? 

Love and educating. Not violence. Not killing. Not forcing.

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More than 700 million people live in extreme poverty, and must continually struggle to even meet basic needs. 70 percent of the world's extremely poor people live in southern Asia and sub-saharan Africa. These regions are not resource poor, they've just historically been mismanaged and abused under colonialism.

:(

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There are agencies that help, or try to help anyway, but often they lack coordination with other agencies and knowledge of local conditions and economies. Quite often their help is only short term benefit. Sometimes it makes things much worse in the long run. 

True.

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1. What can people and leadership in these subsistence poor areas do to help lift themselves out of dire poverty?

Awesome question.

They can educate themselves on what to do to help themselves out, without relying on foreigners.

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2. What can the average person in a middle class or higher family do to improve our world by improving the situation of the extremely poor in our own communities and abroad?

Personally, I think it's not helpful to just give to a charity organization without making sure that the organization truly uses the money or supplies to help the people. Sadly, some organizations use donations for the members, not for the people in need. So, I think it's extremely important for people to help others personally, not via an organization - blindly trusting in that organization to use the donations wisely.

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3. What can you do? What will you do?

Jesus Christ gives great advice on how: (I boldened some and separated longer paragraphs into shorter paragraphs.)

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat,

I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink,

I was a stranger and you invited me in,

36 I needed clothes and you clothed me,

I was sick and you looked after me,

I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

...

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine

you did for me.’ - Matthew 25:34-36, 40 (NIV)

Jesus Christ also said,

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. - Matthew 6:1-4 (NIV)

Peace and God bless you

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31 minutes ago, Bakir said:

However, when you see the big picture, poverty in the world is highly tied to a corrupt world system that prefers to make bombs instead of schools (considering the latter is more effective than anything else)

Salam Bakir,

This is an awesome point. Bomb-making and weapons are not the road to eliminating poverty. Education is a much better tool for eliminating poverty than weapons are. Weapons being used to kill people actually promotes poverty :( 

It is not a coincidence that many of the poverty-stricken areas of the world experience a lot of violence and deaths via weapons. :( However, the weapons industry does not seem to care about that. :(

Personally, I wish that the people who make and sell weapons would voluntarily stop doing so, and instead help poverty-stricken communities rebuild their communities, and their schools, and playgrounds for the kids, and gardens and town centers.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady
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5 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

 "also working to change the political system that perpetuates this garbage.

How? This is too vague to be useful. Can you elaborate?

5 hours ago, Bakir said:

With such a cancer in the world, I feel shame by the sole intention of suggesting or even thinking about how third world countries could confront their poverty.

I think in order for outside help to work long-term, the locals will have to contribute. 

4 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Give Zakat and Khums. Also, help as many people as you can. Try to find needy people in your family, neighbourhood or community. If everyone should do their job the right way and be just to others I think we can finish poverty. Look at rich people getting rich because they are not performing their duties right. We should help people who are in need. 

Agreed. Little changes lead to big changes. If everyone who could, did, it would make a whole different world.

@Christianlady you've written a thorough and well thought out post, and I'll discuss the rest later. Right now I'm quickly responding before I take my little one to the public library. I do want to respond to this one comment:

4 hours ago, Christianlady said:

I personally find this claim very hard to believe (same as I would find it very hard to believe if this claim was made in Christian history). The fact is, there are always poor people somewhere in the world, due to the greed of other people and/or due to natural disasters - like earthquakes, famines, hurricanes, etc.

It wasn't the world, just the city and it's vicinity. Before easy travel and communication, the world was much smaller for most people. We have the technology now to make every human in the world our neighbor, if not for shallow differences like political boundaries, language, and ideology.

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1 hour ago, notme said:

How did Europe break free from feudalism at the end of its dark age? 

Salam Notme,

I think Europe broke free from feudalism via Europeans learning to think for themselves instead of being told how to think by either a church/religious institution or absolute monarch, yeah?

This is an interesting video about feudalism in Europe:

 A point the video makes is that the "black death" contributed to the decline of feudalism. I'm not sure if that's true, but it is an interesting thought.

What do you think? Do you think that the plague had an impact on the decline of feudalism in Europe?

I personally think Europeans educating themselves had more of an impact, but I could be wrong. Definitely, when thousands of people die to a disease :( , that does change things.

This is scary:  :(

I wonder if Job suffered from some sort of plague similar to the black death before God healed him?

So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot even unto his crown. - Job 2:7 

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2702.htm

Anyways, this is an sad and interesting video about the "Black Death" in Europe and also what if the "Black Death" had never happened:

I disagree with the overpopulation theory. Personally, i believe that God can help people thrive no matter the human population. I don't believe that humans can overpopulate because I believe God, the Giver and Taker of Life, won't let humans overpopulate.

As Job says,

And he said; naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither; the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.  - Job 1:21

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2701.htm

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady
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The decline of feudalism was a multi-faceted phenomena caused by a combination of factors, as is almost always the case in history. These include, but are not limited to, the Black Death (and other diseases such as cholera), the Crusades, the spread of Enlightenment ideas, revolutions and warfare across Europe, the growth of mercantile trade, and the final nail in the coffin, the Industrial Revolution- if you consider the fact that feudalism persisted in other European countries long after the Magna Carta was signed in England, the foremost of these being France. The Ancien Régime retained features very similar to those found in earlier incarnations of feudalism, as late as 1790.

The system was bound to fail even without the presence of some of these factors.

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I think there is a direct correlation between poverty and corruption. What I don't know is whether poverty creates corruption or corruption causes poverty.

Governments are useless at helping the poor or when they do, there are strings attached to the help.

I think we should tackle poverty at the micro level meaning at a personal level. Help a poor family member, relative, neighbor, community member as best as we can and look outward thereafter.

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3 hours ago, notme said:

How did Europe break free from feudalism at the end of its dark age? 

Can't we do that again, worldwide?

It's still a European/Western problem. The West does rely upon the bad state of the rest of the world. E.g. the poor slaves still make our products.

If they had better conditions in the rest of the world, then who will the rich have left to explotit?

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2 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

It's still a European/Western problem. The West does rely upon the bad state of the rest of the world. E.g. the poor slaves still make our products.

If they had better conditions in the rest of the world, then who will the rich have left to explotit?

That's the thinking when the powerful people look only at the surface, but even for most of the wealthy and powerful, conditions in Europe began improving with the end of European feudalism. 

I'm trying to determine if it was correlation or causation. It's well known that an educated population improves their own lives and the lives of others around them, and poverty is probably the leading cause of lack of education. When more people are able to live rather than just survive, society has more invention, entrepreneurship, innovation, even arts and literature. And these things improve quality of life. 

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

I think there is a direct correlation between poverty and corruption. What I don't know is whether poverty creates corruption or corruption causes poverty.

Governments are useless at helping the poor or when they do, there are strings attached to the help.

I think we should tackle poverty at the micro level meaning at a personal level. Help a poor family member, relative, neighbor, community member as best as we can and look outward thereafter.

I think poverty feeds corruption and corruption feeds poverty. 

Re. micro level: help how? Obviously assist in an emergency, but what about long term? Provide education for poor relatives? Buy a house for a poor community member? Or what? In particular, how do you decide who to help and in what way? And how do you make sure your help results in a permanent improvement? 

And what about situations in which entire communities are in poverty and have no family member or neighbor to give them a hand? 

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Guest silasun

The answer is in sustainable development. It has numerous elements - education (Jeffrey Sachs emphasises on education of women), environment, corruption-free governments (perhaps democracy is the answer, or at least part of it) etc.

Sachs is somebody who has done a lot of work in this area - I have a somewhat untouched copy of The Age of Sustainable Development on my shelf. Perhaps other members can contribute some of his writings.

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4 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Could you please give an example? Thanks.

Small communities, usually isolated. I've seen in the Indian community in the town in West Virginia where I grew up. They came as outsiders to a potentially hostile new home. They relied on and helped each other. When new families came to the area, they were greeted as family by their ethnic community. I've heard of the same in Jewish, Mormon, Korean, Japanese communities. I'm pretty sure it happens a lot. Unfortunately, not among most communities, and each community has their own established boundaries: Jewish communities only take in other Jews, Korean communities only take in other Koreans, and so on. Can't we make this a worldwide thing? Each time someone moves into the neighborhood, we all gain new family members?

Or is the world too big for that now?

4 hours ago, Christianlady said:

Yes, but it requires a massive mentality change. It requires the 1%, as Sanders calls them, to voluntarily decide to give up much of "their" wealth and pass it around in a wise and fair way.

99% of us aren't part of the 1%. What would happen if WE voluntarily gave? What would happen if suddenly it became important to the 99%? 

Waiting for someone else to take action is the easy way out.

Edited by notme
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4 hours ago, Christianlady said:

They can educate themselves on what to do to help themselves out, without relying on foreigners

How? If you are struggling to survive, you really don't think about much more than survival, and if you don't know anybody who even knows how to read, (for example) it isn't even going to cross your mind.

 

4 hours ago, Christianlady said:

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine you did for me.’

One of my favorite quotes. :)

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5 hours ago, notme said:

How? This is too vague to be useful. Can you elaborate?

Lol. Sorry....couldn't elaborate this morning because I had to go be useful elsewhere all of a sudden.

I do live in a tight-knit community that is a little different from other folks due to sovereign rights, and historically people always took care of one another here through better and worse,no matter what the political situation.

Around here, things got much better for us when we  used our numbers ( had little money back then, but had people ) to support people for office who better represented our interests. We were able, over the years, to get enough supporters into office at various levels to  get some legislation we felt we needed passed which helped our community education-wise and with other concerns. We used this leverage to  get funds to educate our youth through college , especially in areas of law, medicine, social work, etc. that we needed. They are serving well. My oldest son, for example , had a scholarship through college and a job waiting for him when he finished. He came home to contribute what he learned to the community.

As well, we  were able to start ventures which provided jobs and from which we share profit among the community members. Now no one here is actually " wealthy" by any means, but no one here is on welfare anymore,either. We were able to work on our priorities..such as expand our health clinic outreach and provide more support for our elders and we can now fund our own educational programs . (And occasionally " fun" things, too. For the example: The tribal council put some money aside about ten years ago to encourage healthy habits for the kids. That summer, the families all received $500 per kid to send them to any summer camp they wanted which met the council's criteria of wholesome educational activities. A lot of kids got to try out new sports, skills,  and adventures that year and many have stuck with them. )

We also helped the larger community ( the whole local area of any ethnicity) including food security, people's self-help housing, etc. It's better if the entire area is healthier and more stable. We also used the money to support more folks for office and on it goes. Local politicos pay attention now , although some are traditionally hostile. (We are planning to unseat / replace them eventually by tipping the balance of power even further in our favor ( adding to the reservation ) and putting more our own people in. There are some rich folks opposing us, but we collectively now have more money and numbers than they do. It's just a matter of time for them. This is why they bitterly opposed the land being returned...lol. 

I know I am talking locally about a specific special community, but I think it is just a matter of time for the nation to change as well. I have a lot of interest in the abilities of the common people vs the " oligarchy". The DNC blundered badly this election,, but the young people generally have different ideas ( are often 40 points to the " left" of even their parents by some polls) and will outlive the old oligarchs of both parties. If my kids are any indication, they have plans for the future.

Hope this is more useful.

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1 hour ago, notme said:

 

99% of us aren't part of the 1%. What would happen if WE voluntarily gave? What would happen if suddenly it became important to the 99%? 

Waiting for someone else to take action is the easy way out.

The 99% can crowd-fund themselves, but , IMHO, wealth is considered somewhat communal. ( May be cultural to me...the measure of wealth is not how much you own, but how much you contribute to the community...people will give whole house full of things away to celebrate the birth of a child....ask me where my grandmother's silver tray is....my cousin has it after the giveaway to celebrate DD's birth and naming...lol) 

 The 1% did not get rich all by themselves. They got rich from the labor of countless others. I don't believe in asking them to " voluntarily " give it back to the people who made it for them. I believe in forcing them if necessary. The " wealth redistribution "...lol...has happened a great many times down through history when people got  greedy. The nice way is to tax the stuffing out of them. The other way is to depose them and take their stuff by force, although that can be a bit destabilizing to a society, it can also work out just fine.

The rich only control things when they have the forces of authority on their side ( the police, the military, etc.) But those people aren't usually included in the 1% either, so it's not a stable situation for the  upper crust if the gap gets too big and people get hungry/ cold/ sick/angry. 

 

 

Edited by LeftCoastMom
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1 hour ago, notme said:

@silasun thanks, I'll look for that book. I, too, think sustainable development can play a big role in curing the world's ails.

True, the first world needs to stop using everyone else as a resource/ garbage dump. This means the lifestyle will have to change.

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14 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

May be cultural to me...the measure of wealth is not how much you own, but how much you contribute to the community...

This is the kind of cultural values the whole world needs.

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7 hours ago, notme said:

1. What can people and leadership in these subsistence poor areas do to help lift themselves out of dire poverty?

2. What can the average person in a middle class or higher family do to improve our world by improving the situation of the extremely poor in our own communities and abroad?

3. What can you do? What will you do?

Sister, as for questions 2 and 3, it is hard for individuals to do a lot to eradicate poverty from their midst.

Very hard.  

However, different people have different degrees of opportunity. And depending on how much opportunity, we can help alleviate the misery of as many people as possible.

                                             ***

However, as for question no 1, leaders certainly have a lot of opportunity to do something about poverty.

What leaders can do is to level out, as a first priority,  and to do this, they need to change their approach completely.

Now let us think what a good leader at the moment does in this respect.

Well, it would be reasonable to think that he would try to create jobs, for example, among other things.

But whatever they do, most of the time, leaders have a top down approach.

In other words, they create or support a whole lot of rich and very rich people to do the needful.

What Islam advocates is a bottom up approach. 

This approach is hard to explain in just a few lines.

Basically however, it requires the state to start with the poor. 

Leaders should make arrangements for the poor first so that their needs are provided.

Another point about this approach is that , salaries do not depend on the level of responsibility but the measure of needs.

Imam Ali, for example, gave the same salary to his subordinates, as he took himself.

Islam's approach also seems to be to discourage the accumulation of wealth.

In  a truly Islamic society, there will be never be any rich people.

Simply never!

 

Edited by baqar
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1 hour ago, notme said:

I think poverty feeds corruption and corruption feeds poverty. 

Re. micro level: help how? Obviously assist in an emergency, but what about long term? Provide education for poor relatives? Buy a house for a poor community member? Or what? In particular, how do you decide who to help and in what way? And how do you make sure your help results in a permanent improvement? 

For example, we give our khums money to some poorer relatives to use for their education. While my father was in Pakistan, we would all send our sehm-e-sadat to him and he used the funds to help the relatives in need and some other families. 

Additionally, donation of hours and money to organizations such as Shaheed Foundation aka Savior USA.

I think Allah has given to shias that no shia child should ever have to go hungry or not be educated. 

2 hours ago, notme said:

And what about situations in which entire communities are in poverty and have no family member or neighbor to give them a hand? 

In that case, other communities have to help. For example, there was a great initiative started in the US by a brother to put water wells in rural areas of African countries.

https://www.charitywater.org/

Such a simply yet worthy cause.

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Rich people tend to have that mentality, they are not going to give voluntarily any of the money they believe theirs so easily.

More interesting than the fall of feudalism was the emergence of judaism back in its day. It changed the whole moral system. We are not talking about a nominal religion where the rich is still respected over the faithful. I am talking about a real change in accordance to religious principles in all the society and the way people judge reality. A tangible factual change in accordance to religion. That was judaism back in its day, and it made aristocracy fall apart in favour of the poor and the most needing people. Because humbleness wasn't something to be disgusted about, but to be proud of.

We live in a society where our moral values are almost completely contrary to what our religion and our humanity tell us.

I recommend reading Ibn Rushd when it comes to building a society. This man and al Andalus society is probably amongthe best Spain has brought to the world.

Edited by Bakir
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11 minutes ago, magma said:

Poverty, like many illnesses, can never be cured -- only managed, and prevented from getting worse.

I don't think we need to make everyone financially equal, just lift up the ones who are barely surviving. I'm sure the worst poverty can be cured. I'm sure if enough of us decide to do it, we will reach the tipping point and it will turn things around for the better. Until then, even if you can make a difference to only one person, you have made a difference to one person, and that's something. That's a reason to have lived. 

 

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Reading the above l can discern two underlying themes: a) pinko-progressives that fantasize that "gov't is created gooder than baby jesus" want gov't intervention ; b) communal-communist premises still permeate people's imaginings.

1] ln America, a quick way to help poor people is cut-their-___-taxes. Especially hidden taxes that accumulate in the background. When viewed as business + all its taxes and social security and medicare and business-and-sales taxes (TSSM&BS) added to the next business + TSSM&BS added to the next TSSM&BS ad governmental nauseum then again at the retail sales point. Y'all get the idea.

2] l'II do this from memory. A few years ago l read an article that said the World's population can comfortably be placed in the State of Texas.  Figuring this out, this comes to a quarter acre per person. This is without any vertical housing.  Then subtract out the population needed to run societal operations in agriculture, mining, dams and water, and so forth. Then there is more than enough room for roads and businesses and so forth.

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17 hours ago, notme said:

Small communities, usually isolated. I've seen in the Indian community in the town in West Virginia where I grew up. They came as outsiders to a potentially hostile new home. They relied on and helped each other. When new families came to the area, they were greeted as family by their ethnic community. .I've heard of the same in Jewish, Mormon, Korean, Japanese communities. I'm pretty sure it happens a lot.

Salam Notme,

Oh, I see. This happens in some farming communities too. For example, my Grandpa (Dad's Dad) grew up on a farm before he went to seminary. Farming communities tend to help each other out when needed. Farming in the Midwest is risky, thanks to unpredictable weather conditions and catastrophe risks. Basically, it was subsistence living, but many people in the farming community were/are fine and happy - not wealthy, but not dying of hunger either. They were/are thankful for what they had and they look(ed) out for each other.

It is interesting how many people who are poor or "middle class" are often more generous than people who are rich. I wonder why that is? 

The farmers in México are in general incredibly generous and loving people. They help each other out, and adore visiting with other people. They are very welcoming; at least, that was my experience as a teenager. My Dad took me to a poor village in México once and we slept in the house of a poor family - without hot water plumbing, without concrete floors. I learned how to wash clothes by hand. i also learned that having all the modern conveniences of life doesn't make people happy.

These poor farmers in México were happy, cause they were a family unit that love God and each other. They were not dying of hunger, but they did not have a lot. Yet, they were willing to share what they had with new friends. They are amazing. I wish more Americans would learn from them.

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Unfortunately, not among most communities, and each community has their own established boundaries: Jewish communities only take in other Jews, Korean communities only take in other Koreans, and so on.

True. I think one reason why though is because people tend to gravitate to those of the same culture. There are exceptions of course, like me.  However, most people tend to stick with their own cultural community.

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Can't we make this a worldwide thing? Each time someone moves into the neighborhood, we all gain new family members?

That's how I personally see the refugees and immigrants, both documented and undocumented!!! :) I wish that all people saw other people that way. So then, the question is, how do we encourage more people to see each other, no matter our differences, as new family members instead of as imposters?

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Or is the world too big for that now?

I don't think so. I think the issue is sin. Jesus prophesied the following:

"Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold" - Matthew 24:12 (NIV)

Sad to say, we see that happening around the Western world today. While some Westerners continue to love their neighbors as themselves and welcome the stranger in, others have let fear freeze love into hatred. :(

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99% of us aren't part of the 1%. What would happen if WE voluntarily gave? What would happen if suddenly it became important to the 99%? 

There are many who do give to the poor voluntarily. Many people give voluntarily without telling others about it, because they do it for God, not for other people to take notice.

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Waiting for someone else to take action is the easy way out

True.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady
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@hasanhh

I don't trust government.  Any government.  I don't trust politicians.  But I do think if they see that it becomes in their best interest to do good, they will do good.  I think waiting for it to start with them or relying on them, or relying on the mega-rich, or relying on anyone else, is destined to fail.  The world is only going to change when WE change it.

1.  Taxes would be a start, but that relies on government to vote against what they perceive to be their best interests. I don't think WE can do much about taxes. 

2.  What are the implications of this population study?  Can a person survive on the product of 1/4 acre?  What does this part of your post mean?

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17 hours ago, notme said:

How? If you are struggling to survive, you really don't think about much more than survival,

Salam Notme,

I need to read/listen to Frederick Douglass' autobiography again. He's one of my heroes. As a slave, he struggled to survive in a horrible situation. However, he didn't just think about survival; he though about freedom. While at first, he was taught to read, eventually his lessons stopped, and he taught himself to read more. He is an amazing man who did a lot to help  rescue his people from slavery; like Moses in some ways.

He himself was bought from "his owner" :( by friends that he made thanks to his educating himself. If he had not educated himself, it's very possible that he would have not been able to do all that he did for his people and for himself. 

This is a cool, eloquent quote from Frederick Douglass: (I boldened some and separated long paragraphs into shorter ones.)

Whilst I was saddened by the thought of losing the aid of my kind mistress, I was gladdened by the invaluable instruction which, by the merest accident, I had gained from my master.

Though conscious of the difficulty of learning without a teacher, I set out with high hope, and a fixed purpose, at whatever cost of trouble, to learn how to read.

The very decided manner with which he spoke, and strove to impress his wife with the evil consequences of giving me instruction, served to convince me that he was deeply sensible of the truths he was uttering. It gave me the best assurance that I might rely with the utmost confidence on the results which, he said, would flow from teaching me to read. (6.3)

http://www.shmoop.com/life-of-frederick-douglass/education-quotes.html

There's definitely a reason why the slaveowners denied a quality education to slaves. That shows how valuable education is for freedom from slavery, and in my opinion, from poverty too.

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and if you don't know anybody who even knows how to read, (for example) it isn't even going to cross your mind.

Could you please give an example, as in a specific group of people? Thanks.

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One of my favorite quotes. :)

Me too!!!

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady
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@hasanhh Lol. In spite of the fact that a lot of people seem to think some of us picked up our " commie " ways in some college class somewhere, some of us have lived in communities that have looked at "wealth "collectively for thousands of years and still do.  Since @notme started out quoting Jesus, the very early Christians practiced a form of "communistic " life. 

So I come by my views honestly.

If you go out seal-hunting as a team in a boat, it's a group effort. You all contribute. Say you get ten seals. The group captain, being the most experienced and having done the work on scouting out the seal population movements for days before, might be given the plumpest seal. But he doesn't take nine seals and let everyone else fight over the scraps of the tenth. He wouldn't be captain long with that attitude.

The problem is that this kind of system is far easier in a smaller, closed community like this where the feedback loops are tiny. For large Nation-states it's far more of a challenge.

However, continuing and increasing wealth inequality is a greatly destabilizing force in a society sooner or later. The haves get richer, the have-nots get angry. Something has to give eventually. How it gets done is the question.

Edited by LeftCoastMom
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4 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Could you please give an example, as in a specific group of people? Thanks.

How many slaves did not have the opportunity that Mr. Douglass was given?  How many were never taught even the fundamentals of reading?  Maybe some people could decipher written language without being taught the letters and sounds, but not most.  

Education - or at least access to education - should be a fundamental human right.  Unfortunately, knowledge is often tied up by politics.

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11 minutes ago, notme said:

@hasanhh

I don't trust government.  Any government.  I don't trust politicians.  But I do think if they see that it becomes in their best interest to do good, they will do good. :hahaha: I think waiting for it to start with them or relying on them, or relying on the mega-rich, or relying on anyone else, is destined to fail. :clap:The world is only going to change when WE change it.

1.  Taxes ... I don't think WE can do much about taxes. 

2.  What are the implications of this population study?  Can a person survive on the product of 1/4 acre?  What does this part of your post mean?

1] Yes, some things can be done.

2] There is no inference that a person is expected to nutritionally survive on 1/4 acre. The food will come from the outside areas as note above.

What this part means is that the World is not as overcrowded as the media pretends.

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