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Jason Howard

Question on the origin of matter

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Salamualaykum

It has come to my attention that neither Atheists nor Theists believe that there was ever "nothing" to begin with, and that there was always "something". A strong argument of mine has always been the absurdity of something coming from nothing.

However, Atheists do believe that something had to have existed.

My question is, how do we narrow that "something" down to the God of Islam? What qualities must that "something" have and why? Just to give you an example, one quality I am sure of is that this "something" can exist without an environment. Something that doesn't need air, food or water to exist. That disqualifies every current living thing on this earth.

Your input will be very much appreciated.

By the way, do not forget about the quantum realm.

WS

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22 minutes ago, Jason Howard said:

My question is, how do we narrow that "something" down to the God of Islam?

God is not a physical being.

So you cannot equate him with "something."

23 minutes ago, Jason Howard said:

A strong argument of mine has always been the absurdity of something coming from nothing.

You may find it absurd.

But that is Islam's position - that there was nothing before God gave His command for something to come into being. 

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5 hours ago, Jason Howard said:

Salamualaykum

It has come to my attention that neither Atheists nor Theists believe that there was ever "nothing" to begin with, and that there was always "something". A strong argument of mine has always been the absurdity of something coming from nothing.

However, Atheists do believe that something had to have existed.

My question is, how do we narrow that "something" down to the God of Islam? What qualities must that "something" have and why? Just to give you an example, one quality I am sure of is that this "something" can exist without an environment. Something that doesn't need air, food or water to exist. That disqualifies every current living thing on this earth.

Your input will be very much appreciated.

By the way, do not forget about the quantum realm.

WS

The word which God used for Himself in Quran is self-existing and self-sustaining. God does not need any thing from outside upon which He depends because anything which depends on other is not independent and God says that He AWJ is independent of all without the need of anything. So, the definition of matter does not apply to Him. Armature Atheists believe that there was nothing before the universe came into existence, but they are wrong about this because instead of nothing "There was always God" and "there will always be God". The belief which they hold for "nothingness" should be changed to "God" because that is the reality. 

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11 hours ago, baqar said:

God is not a physical being.

So you cannot equate him with "something."

 

Sura 6:103  "no vision can grasp"  "Vision" includes "mental vision" and Thought.

So, to presume to write "not a physical being" is borderline idolatry.

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13 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Sura 6:103  "no vision can grasp"  "Vision" includes "mental vision" and Thought.

So, to presume to write "not a physical being" is borderline idolatry.

That is a very strange conclusion, brother. And I believe it is clearly illogical.

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17 hours ago, baqar said:

God is not a physical being.

So you cannot equate him with "something."

You may find it absurd.

But that is Islam's position - that there was nothing before God gave His command for something to come into being. 

I think you need to read my question again. I am aware that God created everything from nothing. 

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11 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

The word which God used for Himself in Quran is self-existing and self-sustaining. God does not need any thing from outside upon which He depends because anything which depends on other is not independent and God says that He AWJ is independent of all without the need of anything. So, the definition of matter does not apply to Him. Armature Atheists believe that there was nothing before the universe came into existence, but they are wrong about this because instead of nothing "There was always God" and "there will always be God". The belief which they hold for "nothingness" should be changed to "God" because that is the reality. 

I think you, as well need to take another look at my question. Atheists believe that there was something. I am aware that the original being is self sufficient. I am looking for other qualities that this "someone" or "something" should have.

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31 minutes ago, Jason Howard said:

I think you, as well need to take another look at my question. Atheists believe that there was something. I am aware that the original being is self sufficient. I am looking for other qualities that this "someone" or "something" should have.

One word to describe His qualities. He is absolute goodness. 

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Process: A fertilized human egg to full grown Human.

Process: A seed to full grown giant Sequoia tree

Process: Singularity to Current Universe

What Science describes with much fanfare and dramatization (if you watch any Bigbang Video)

Imagine a video describing the the initial stages of a fertilized human egg and all stages/periods with the development it goes(all subsystems and processes)  through till it reach adulthood(full complete body).

Or a growth of a Sequoia Tree seed, all steps till its a Giant Tree.

We know that all the different stages of development, have a guide and its the DNA, same is true for a Sequoia Tree, it follows a map.

Similarly, if you substitute the scientific terminology and fanfare with simple periods of stages and describe each stages from Singularity to what we know of the universe. Its has followed a map, its systems are growing according to a pre defined system(at a Macro level).

So, you can’t use Science to understand God. Its out of the realm of Science to even go into to this discussion.  Imagine if we give artifical intelligence to Mars rover, and it starts thinking like us, and wants to imagine who created it. If can’t comprehend us. Similarly we can’t comprehend our creator.

Its best to stick to what our purpose is and struggle to comprehend it.

Our Lord is the one who shaped it and guideth all that we know.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-1-praise-due-Allah-whose-worth-cannot-be-described

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On 4/16/2017 at 9:36 PM, Jason Howard said:

Salamualaykum

It has come to my attention that neither Atheists nor Theists believe that there was ever "nothing" to begin with, and that there was always "something". A strong argument of mine has always been the absurdity of something coming from nothing.

However, Atheists do believe that something had to have existed.

My question is, how do we narrow that "something" down to the God of Islam? What qualities must that "something" have and why? Just to give you an example, one quality I am sure of is that this "something" can exist without an environment. Something that doesn't need air, food or water to exist. That disqualifies every current living thing on this earth.

Your input will be very much appreciated.

By the way, do not forget about the quantum realm.

WS

It's not true that Atheists say there had to be "something".  Maybe some atheists would say that if not all of them.  There are a number of scientists (some of whom are atheists) that talk about how everything evolved out of nothing.  To make themselves sound nore convincing they maintain that the only thing that was before the universe were the quantum laws of physics.  But besides the laws, there was nothing at all.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

It's not true that Atheists say there had to be "something".  Maybe some atheists would say that if not all of them.  There are a number of scientists (some of whom are atheists) that talk about how everything evolved out of nothing.  To make themselves sound nore convincing they maintain that the only thing that was before the universe were the quantum laws of physics.  But besides the laws, there was nothing at all.  

Some actually do say that there was something, whether it is energy or something else. I want to prove that originally there had to have been a being with so and so qualities.

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On 4/17/2017 at 9:55 PM, S.M.H.A. said:

Process: A fertilized human egg to full grown Human.

Process: A seed to full grown giant Sequoia tree

Process: Singularity to Current Universe

What Science describes with much fanfare and dramatization (if you watch any Bigbang Video)

Imagine a video describing the the initial stages of a fertilized human egg and all stages/periods with the development it goes(all subsystems and processes)  through till it reach adulthood(full complete body).

Or a growth of a Sequoia Tree seed, all steps till its a Giant Tree.

We know that all the different stages of development, have a guide and its the DNA, same is true for a Sequoia Tree, it follows a map.

Similarly, if you substitute the scientific terminology and fanfare with simple periods of stages and describe each stages from Singularity to what we know of the universe. Its has followed a map, its systems are growing according to a pre defined system(at a Macro level).

So, you can’t use Science to understand God. Its out of the realm of Science to even go into to this discussion.  Imagine if we give artifical intelligence to Mars rover, and it starts thinking like us, and wants to imagine who created it. If can’t comprehend us. Similarly we can’t comprehend our creator.

Its best to stick to what our purpose is and struggle to comprehend it.

Our Lord is the one who shaped it and guideth all that we know.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-1-praise-due-Allah-whose-worth-cannot-be-described

I'm not trying to understand God through this. I'm trying to understand the qualities that the initial being had to have had. 

1) eternal

2) able to produce something else using nothing

3) doesn't have a beginning

4) isn't dependent on sustainance 

What else would you add to the list and why? This isn't beyond our scope. It isn't beyond our imagination that the one who was present before matter doesn't need an environment to survive. 

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10 hours ago, Jason Howard said:

Some actually do say that there was something, whether it is energy or something else. I want to prove that originally there had to have been a being with so and so qualities.

Yes, some indeed do say that. 

Is this "something" before the Big Bang?

let us assume this something is indeed God...   if you were to go back in time to when the universe just began to expand, would you be closer to God?

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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26 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

let us assume this something is indeed God...   if you were to go back in time to when the universe just began to expand, would you be closer to God?

God is not bound by time, matter, or space - so the status of the universe is immaterial. The first second of the universe vs today makes no difference. There's no interdependence. 

"Closeness" to God is based on a spiritual connection, which is what revealed religion intends to assist. 

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1 hour ago, magma said:

God is not bound by time, matter, or space - so the status of the universe is immaterial. The first second of the universe vs today makes no difference. There's no interdependence. 

"Closeness" to God is based on a spiritual connection, which is what revealed religion intends to assist. 

I wanted to know what he would say.  But thanks anyway. :)

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13 hours ago, Jason Howard said:

I'm not trying to understand God through this. I'm trying to understand the qualities that the initial being had to have had. 

1) eternal

2) able to produce something else using nothing

3) doesn't have a beginning

4) isn't dependent on sustainance 

What else would you add to the list and why? This isn't beyond our scope. It isn't beyond our imagination that the one who was present before matter doesn't need an environment to survive. 

I want you to understand that I am a layman, and may say something out of my ignorance about Islam. These are my personal views based on current knowledge with is very little. Do not take it as a Islamic view(I may be wrong).

God does not concern to much with describing his qualities to us. Not sure but God is not describing its essence to us or what he is who he is where he is or how he is except for what concerns us.

One- so we do not worship many;

Creator, Justice, Mercy etc..

It is very arrogant of us to think that we can comprehend its essence completely, so it's a futile exercise without any productive or implementable results for our benefit.

I gave you an example of Mars rover- You like to use Imagination, so this will be a very appropriate place to utilize it effectively to get insight into what you are actually looking to accomplish and what is your objective.

We humans assembled the Mars rover transported it  to Mars, we control it without any hard connection. If that machine were to be given Artificial Intelligence, and can think like us.

Do you think its will serve a purpose for that machine to worry about who we are verse concentrating on figuring out what its purpose is on Mars and accomplishing it.

If it did try to imagine us based on information it collected based on the environment the machine is in and what's around it. Can it ever imagine that we reproduce, or eat or sleep, need rest etc...because it does not do those things it can’t even imagine reproducing.

That machine will be more productive in thinking about itself and what its owner wants for it. If we were to communicate with it, will we not be to interested in describing ourselves to it except for what it need to know to do the job and the results.

Science is a great tool, necessary for us, it making our lives and conditions better. But these Terms and terminology that sounds so sophisticated to us, is very simple stuff if looked without any fanfare. We live on a tiny rock, our galaxy has over 100 billions objects, and with deepfield images you can say over 100 billion galaxies out there that we can see.

To say anything with  certainty is intellectual dishonesty.(It's all Theories) But you and are not sold on it.  They have to sell it to us as the best thing since sliced bread. Which it is not. So, we need to dim down the glitter and look pass the brightness. We will see that it's just basic stuff - like I said a fertilized human egg and a sequoia seed will go through the same process and we can say at time zero this happened and substitute evolution, randomness, evolution based on environment or say its has a DNA, Map. We can’t say that our gray matter formed in our brain because the right conditions existed for it to be formed or our blood formed because the right conditions existed for it to be formed. We know it that Egg had what we needed and all that needed to be developed. We understand geens, DNA it's happened as its is planned. Same for the Universe. ( Universe has a DNA, Map )

What I am trying to get at is that you used Scientific terminology, like what existed before matter.

This is assuming that that’s all there is. Which is not true. It's only all we know.

Our bigbang, as described as everything was in one dot or something and  all exposed and expanded. And here we are billions of years later. For that something that had all the potential matter (building blocks for everything to come into existence(like a egg/seed) it had be be in a environment, and new time started with it. For all we know our universe may be a product of one of the billion bigbangs out there.

We live on a small rock in this particular universe. We are like an ant in a ant colony on one part of earth trying to figure out the entire system.

So, it's better to think in terms of what we are what our wort is and what are we here to do and use our imagination to understand that.

This is where religion comes in. who we are , what we are here for, what we need to do and where we are going….

If you have some other quest hat i can't comprehend, explain or

I wish you luck in your quest to find qualities of the incomprehensible. But think about if and when you do understand it, what would you do with that knowledge.

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