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In the Name of God بسم الله
Lunarious

Islam and Buddhism

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The teachings of buddhism are self contradictory, I hope this might help on changing your thoughts...

Buddhism is based on these teachings, The four noble truths and The Noble Eight Fold Path, The Eight Fold Path are:

(i) Right Views

(ii) Right Thoughts

(iii) Right Speech

(iv) Right Actions

(v) Right Livelihood

(vi) Right Efforts

(vii) Right Mindfulness

(viii) Right Meditation

The Contadiction

Four Noble Truths according tho Buddhism are:

(i) There is suffering and misery in life.

(ii) The cause of suffering and misery is desire.

(iii) Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.

(iv) Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path.

This Philosophy of Buddhism is self-contradictory or self-defeating because the third truth says "suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire" and the fourth truth says that 'desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path'.

Now, for any person to follow Buddhism he should first have the desire to follow the Four Noble Truths and the Eight Fold Path. The Third great Noble Truth says that desire should be removed. Once you remove desire, how can we follow the Fourth Noble truth i.e. follow the Eight Fold Path unless we have a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. In short desire can only be removed by having a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. If you do not follow the Eight Fold Path, desire cannot be removed. It is self contradicting as well as self-defeating to say that desire will only be removed by continuously having a desire. 

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11 hours ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

The teachings of buddhism are self contradictory, I hope this might help on changing your thoughts...

Buddhism is based on these teachings, The four noble truths and The Noble Eight Fold Path, The Eight Fold Path are:

(i) Right Views

(ii) Right Thoughts

(iii) Right Speech

(iv) Right Actions

(v) Right Livelihood

(vi) Right Efforts

(vii) Right Mindfulness

(viii) Right Meditation

The Contadiction

Four Noble Truths according tho Buddhism are:

(i) There is suffering and misery in life.

(ii) The cause of suffering and misery is desire.

(iii) Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.

(iv) Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path.

This Philosophy of Buddhism is self-contradictory or self-defeating because the third truth says "suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire" and the fourth truth says that 'desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path'.

Now, for any person to follow Buddhism he should first have the desire to follow the Four Noble Truths and the Eight Fold Path. The Third great Noble Truth says that desire should be removed. Once you remove desire, how can we follow the Fourth Noble truth i.e. follow the Eight Fold Path unless we have a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. In short desire can only be removed by having a desire to follow the Eight Fold Path. If you do not follow the Eight Fold Path, desire cannot be removed. It is self contradicting as well as self-defeating to say that desire will only be removed by continuously having a desire. 

This is a funny post.  I couldn't help but giggle while while reading your last paragraph.  It is almost unbelievable that you are being serious about this argument.  

If you really wanted you could have caught a contradiction without having to point to the 4th noble truth (regarding the 8 fold path).  You could have simply said: in order to not have desire one would have to have the desire to not have desire.  

This is of course very silly.  Buddhism is not about ending desire (in the ordinary and generic sense of the term) but rather it is about ending attachments.  And attachments are always inordinate.  This is why you should not speak about a religion without knowing it well.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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18 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

This is a funny post.  I couldn't help but giggle while while reading your last paragraph.  It is almost unbelievable that you are being serious about this argument.  

If you really wanted you could have caught a contradiction without having to point to the 4th noble truth (regarding the 8 fold path).  You could have simply said: in order to not have desire one would have to have the desire to not have desire.  

This is of course very silly.  Buddhism is not about ending desire (in the ordinary and generic sense of the term) but rather it is about ending attachments.  And attachments are always inordinate.  This is why you should not speak about a religion without knowing it well.  

Ok, the desire should be described in more specific terms according to you but it isn't, is it? It still is a reasonable argument, like some atheists might ask "can god create himself ?", the question is asked wrongly similar to "can something uncreated be created?" But it still is a good argument (and easily refutable), you didn't answer anything. Can you teach me more about  what I don't understand concerning Buddhism?

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

On 4/12/2017 at 3:14 PM, Lunarious said:

How do you unite Zen and Islam ethereal (your religion being Nothing. Emptiness/form)? And everyone. I personally believe Dajjal is almost oursalvation. Believers as external warriors, are sinless from youth, in Islam, and when the seal is broken (and what is to break the seal?) our Believers gets tortured and he falls, like Iblis, becoming sinful unlike his former but still our protagonist and a messenger. As Dajjal. He is not pure like the prophets are. Like my Zen teacher said to me: i do mistakes like you but i correct them. The important thing is doing good for us majority, but many are different.

Then comes the pure messenger. Jesus.

Peace

But still, regarding the unity of other religions, unity can only be achieved through ahlulbayt (being a Shia), I am not making a statement about tolerance, believes such as Karma have no basis and even contradict the Islamic teachings...

Alaikum salam wa rahmatullah

La ilahe ilallah wa Muhammadan rasulullah wa Aliyan waliullah Ya Ali

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 If you want to meditate then just meditate, anyone can do it because it's clearing the mind fom all distractions. Then take that into the Qur'an to gain deeper insights, you don't need to adopt or modify Buddhism or Islam to be able to meditate, many Sufis and those who practice Irfan do just that.

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10 hours ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

Ok, the desire should be described in more specific terms according to you but it isn't, is it? It still is a reasonable argument, like some atheists might ask "can god create himself ?", the question is asked wrongly similar to "can something uncreated be created?" But it still is a good argument (and easily refutable), you didn't answer anything. Can you teach me more about  what I don't understand concerning Buddhism?

Let's put it like this:  if you think your silly little argument is capable of exposing a major fallacy of a 2,500 year old tradition that has been the life and spirit of an entire civilization then that is very arrogant of you (to say the least).

Edited by eThErEaL

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13 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Let's put it like this:  if you think your silly little argument is capable of exposing a major fallacy of a 2,500 year old tradition that has been the life and spirit of an entire civilization then that is very arrogant of you (to say the least).

Basically you're saying that because Christianity is almost 2,000 years old, I can't point out thare there is more than 100 contradictions in the Bible, but let's go with that, I'm arrogant...

Back to the topic 

On 4/12/2017 at 3:14 PM, Lunarious said:

How do you unite Zen and Islam ethereal (your religion being Nothing. Emptiness/form)? And everyone. I personally believe Dajjal is almost oursalvation. Believers as external warriors, are sinless from youth, in Islam, and when the seal is broken (and what is to break the seal?) our Believers gets tortured and he falls, like Iblis, becoming sinful unlike his former but still our protagonist and a messenger. As Dajjal. He is not pure like the prophets are. Like my Zen teacher said to me: i do mistakes like you but i correct them. The important thing is doing good for us majority, but many are different.

Then comes the pure messenger. Jesus.

Peace

Allah said that any religion besides Islam is not accepted (there are some exceptions, but when you see the truth and reject it or don't practice it through the teachings of ahlul bayt, you have completely failed the test)...

Narrated from Ar-Riddah, He said: He is not upon the religion of Islam he who is different from us or other than our Shia.
(Reported by Kulayni in Al Kaafi, volume 1, page 233)

14 hours ago, Abdul Batin Bey said:

 If you want to meditate then just meditate, anyone can do it because it's clearing the mind fom all distractions. Then take that into the Qur'an to gain deeper insights, you don't need to adopt or modify Buddhism or Islam to be able to meditate, many Sufis and those who practice Irfan do just that.

This is true

La ilahe ilallah wa Muhammadan rasulullah wa Aliyan waliullah Ya Ali

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1 hour ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

Basically you're saying that because Christianity is almost 2,000 years old, I can't point out thare there is more than 100 contradictions in the Bible, but let's go with that, I'm arrogant...

Back to the topic 

Allah said that any religion besides Islam is not accepted (there are some exceptions, but when you see the truth and reject it or don't practice it through the teachings of ahlul bayt, you have completely failed the test)...

Narrated from Ar-Riddah, He said: He is not upon the religion of Islam he who is different from us or other than our Shia.
(Reported by Kulayni in Al Kaafi, volume 1, page 233)

This is true

La ilahe ilallah wa Muhammadan rasulullah wa Aliyan waliullah Ya Ali

Christianity is 2,000 years old but Islam is older(laws,revelations,etc. )

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I have studied Buddhism in its original languages and using primary references. Buddhism is part of what it considers to be the Dharma [The true way] and sees itself has a new light upon preestablished religious dialogue in India. The original teachings of Buddha do not exist with absolute certainty in their integrity; as the Pali Canon was conceived well after the second Sangha and has its remnants in mostly Pali and Chinese. Thereafter, you have the Mahayana, which does see some process of deification and salvation through the assistance of a myriad of Boddhisattvas which finally leads into the more popular Tantra-marga that goes back into primitive Tantric practices and furnishes them in the light of sophisticated Mahayanaesque theory.

Buddhism features an emphasis on the 4 cardinal objects of human beings as elucidated across all Indian philosophical systems: Dharma, Kama, Artha, Moksha [The right way, actualization of desires, attainment of meaning and liberation]. Lofty aims lead to lofty ideas. 

Zen is a subsidiary of Mahayana and most of the sutras within the Zen schools that I am familar with, come from the school of Yogacara. The basis of Yogacara is absolutely incompatible with Islam due to how cognition, perception, non existence of self and soul are propounded upon. It also talks about penetration of limits which in Islamic theology, Allah SWT set for a reason and therefore contradicts the rulings of the Quran when it comes to approaching the cognitive aspects of reality. 

Ultimately, if the original Theravadin corpus was as great as people say it is, then the populace of the Buddhists in this world would not deviate from it as they would not have a necessity to do so. But this is far from the truth. The practice of Buddhism and the theological background of it are also substantially different these days. The Boddhisattva of Compassion was originally understood as the Bodhisattva of Emptiness devoid of the Skandhas; but is now seen as an entity that can give good fortune and prosperity which takes a big leap away from the Prajnaparamita texts. 

Western Buddhism as I call it, is a pseudo mishmash of Zen and Tantricism; which can have destructive consequences only because one opens the pandora's box of their mind in a manner that may be bereft of benefit unless one has a proper instructor. The eligibility of such an instructor is a catch 22. If a person knew how to approach the Dharma, why would they need an instructor? IF they dont then how can they discern the validity of their mentor's teachings? This loop around is the major crux and the cardinal problem within the Buddhist practices. Let us even ignore the precepts of vows as even that has variations depending on the tradition one is studying. This is why legends of the ancient Buddhist masters talk about close to a life long journey to find a master or becoming self accomplished themselves in the process. For instance the Buddha Shakhyamuni, had two teachers whom he considered to have been to severe and incomplete in their understanding of their reality before he came to his own realization. 

When Mahayana and Theravada come into agreement and unity - e.g. by the basis of the Prajnaparamita text (I refer to the Short and Medium versions) this notion of Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhisvaha is nowhere to be seen in actual practice. 

If you want to do comparative religion, go for it. But it is an exercise in futility and ignorance if not approached objectively and with some indepth understanding of both systems. Why would I put my deen aside for a deeper view of another faith when I am wholly satisfied with what I have and there are still waters untouched within Islam? If you're unsatisfied with Islam then you have to apprehend and address this as an issue, preferably address it within the context of Islam and then look elsewhere. The similar sentiment is extended to Buddhists. Knowledge of each other's faith is great and fine but comparative religious study is bound to open doors to a storm. 

It took me a decade to come and accept Islam after having studied and practised the tenants of 3 different faiths. I didnt need to know much about Islam because I found what I needed in dhikr and Salah, the rest is history. Buddhist philosophy is very complicated, incredibly intricate because it lays out a comprehensive list of terminologies and classifications in the early stages of any major Mahayana Sutra then it goes into very deep inter-relativities of these. Such as when the Surangama talks about the karma faculties, their dhatus etc. Midway and towards the end, many of the Sutras (with the exception of the Amitabha school) tend to fall apart in their logic. This is evident in the Surangama itself and also texts like the larger Prajnaparamita. The logical breakdown is intentional as these systems prescribe the requirement of a master to pass down the sutra as living knowledge. So there will always be gaps, oversights and intentional contradictions to test the student and their erudition of the text. 

 

My conclusion is that both systems are way too complex to do a thorough review of both in one lifetime. Since we have the one life as ourselves (consistent with both ideologies) why not stick to one and grow within it.  

 

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On 4/12/2017 at 3:14 PM, Lunarious said:

How do you unite Zen and Islam ethereal (your religion being Nothing. Emptiness/form)? And everyone. I personally believe Dajjal is almost oursalvation. Believers as external warriors, are sinless from youth, in Islam, and when the seal is broken (and what is to break the seal?) our Believers gets tortured and he falls, like Iblis, becoming sinful unlike his former but still our protagonist and a messenger. As Dajjal. He is not pure like the Prophets are. Like my Zen teacher said to me: I do mistakes like you but I correct them. The important thing is doing good for us majority, but many are different.

Then comes the pure messenger. Jesus.

Peace

This post I wrote it on like 10 years back by the start of my Jihad where I was Hard Kafir but Honorable (ايطمع كل منهم بجنة نعيم). Allah challenged me through talking to me in the Qur'an 12-11 years back when I was 19 and half, he said in 2:23-24 if you are truthful. This made me angry, very, I wanted to "correct the mistakes of The Prophet Muhammed" and all Arabs through times. For this I Wanted to kill Allah. I set out - A monk is one who leaves home. Now I realize Allah is very powerful, wise and a good King.

 

So I wanted to say I've fallen. Not only did I get tortured, but I got hamstrung (فكذبوه فعقروها) so Allah will balance the scale by leveling the dissidents with the ground (I think, after elevating us together like 43:33 talks about). فدمدم عليهم ربهم فسواها. في العراق التسوية هي الصنع، مثل سوف اسوي اكل

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