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Sermon of Fadak - is it reliable?

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In conclusion, if we follow the principle of division and probability, and depend on the historical facts and read them in a deductive way, we can take the attitude of conviction rather than acquittal of al-Jahiz regarding the issue of homosexuality. However, this approach in this study does not claim that it is exhaustive and comprehensive in dealing with this issue, but it leaves the door open for more and more research, and scrutiny. Probably, if the manuscript of al-Jahiz book al-Latta (Homosexuality) becomes available, more light can be shed on this issue and the moral aspect of al-Jahiz' life. Then, we will be more certain and accurate about al-Jahiz real attitude regarding homosexuality.

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10 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Ayatollah Javadi Amoli empjasized that Sermon of Fadak muust teach in Seminaries & to people his eminence said :

Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

«وَ سَتُنَبِّئُكَ ابْنَتُكَ بِتَضَافُرِ أُمَّتِكَ عَلَی هَضْمِهَا فَأَحْفِهَا السُّؤَالَ وَ اسْتَخْبِرْهَا الْحَال‏»؛

Your daughter is your guest, now comes to your presence and reports on the flow of Saqifah and the likes of Saqifa to your wallet that the "Ummah" gathered to remove Fatima (sa).They said: "One day they say that Ibrahim is Khalil of the Ummah,"  إبراهيم أمة واحدة "; when they say that a nation has raised to crush Abraham Khalil, this implies a commitment that Abraham is a united nation; if they said that a nation would rise to crush Zayd (رضي الله عنه), It turns out that Zayd (رضي الله عنه)was a nation, because Zayd, if he was normal, a normal person could have put him to death. the Hazrat Amir (عليه السلام) introduces the blessed Sadiqa Kobra (sa) , saying that the Ummah was gathered to remove Fatima; that is, Fatima is the Ummah! Because if a normal person did not need to revolt a nation to get her out of hand. The Umma was attended by Saqifa. Those who were from solos and contracts, they were raised up  society, and at the same time they were grounded the Ahl al-Bayt (ams).his Eminance stated: The existence of blessed Fatima (sa) is at the same level as the Qur'an, it is not true that the Qur'an is true and Fatima (sa) does not know, or Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) does something and practice,  which has not said in the Qur'an; therefore, she is the counterpart of the Qur'an.He emphasized the need to introduce Her Holiness Fatima to all the world, saying: Now, someone who is a counterpart to the gospel has seized the world, the east and west of the world are called "Mary", Christianity was able to introduce her to the world, so we We should not only endorse the tears and moans, but we must introduce the Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to the whole world.

http://fa.abna24.com/news/اخبار-مراجع-عظام-تقلید/خطبه-«فدکیه»-در-حوزه‌ها-تدریس-و-جنبه‌های-مختلف-آن-برای-مر_746920.html

 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/35348-Sayyida-Fatima-al-Zahra-as-official-thread/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-3195493

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@Salsabeel    @S.M.H.A.    @Ashvazdanghe

Brothers - no matter how much proof you bring forth, it will not be sufficient. There will be problems with the author, the chain of narrators, the age of the narrators, the Arabic/Farsi --> English translation and so on...

What happens is that some people get so full of themselves that they lose the ability to digest truth. May Allah continue to increase your abilities to seek truth, find truth, read truth, accept truth, absorb truth and spread truth inshallah

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25 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Brothers - no matter how much proof you bring forth, it will not be sufficient. There will be problems with the author, the chain of narrators, the age of the narrators, the Arabic/Farsi --> English translation and so on...

It speaks to the quality of your proof if it's traditions whose chains are problematic, if its books whose authors are notably unknown, if there are gaps between the narrators making verification of the transmission of a tradition difficult, and if your translations are demonstrably bad but you can't do anything other than rely on them because you can't actually read primary sources in the original language yourself. In such a scenario perhaps consider you aren't bringing good proof and the other person isn't just attempting to do anything to get out of having to accept maybe you're justified in your belief. And that if you're saying there's no point discussing because your proofs are demonstrably poor and you can't verify things yourself because you lack the evidence, but instead choose to dismiss people as unorthodox and arguing aimlessly when they show problems with what you bring, that you're just willing to do anything to keep believing what you believe uncritically.

6 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Its a good idea to check their Id's(Fundamental beliefs) at the border.

This is hilarious coming from the guy quoting nohas and Ziyarat Ashura instead of addressing anything anyone says properly.

 

 

Perhaps you should consider that someone can sincerely disagree with you and not see the strength in what you're arguing if there's no strength to it rather than presuming nonsense like this.

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7 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

It speaks to the quality of your proof if it's traditions whose chains are problematic, if its books whose authors are notably unknown, if there are gaps between the narrators making verification of the transmission of a tradition difficult, and if your translations are demonstrably bad but you can't do anything other than rely on them because you can't actually read primary sources in the original language yourself. In such a scenario perhaps consider you aren't bringing good proof and the other person isn't just attempting to do anything to get out of having to accept maybe you're justified in your belief. And that if you're saying there's no point discussing because your proofs are demonstrably poor and you can't verify things yourself because you lack the evidence, but instead choose to dismiss people as unorthodox and arguing aimlessly when they show problems with what you bring, that you're just willing to do anything to keep believing what you believe uncritically.

This is hilarious coming from the guy quoting nohas and Ziyarat Ashura instead of addressing anything anyone says properly.

 

 

Perhaps you should consider that someone can sincerely disagree with you and not see the strength in what you're arguing if there's no strength to it rather than presuming nonsense like this.

 

40 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

What happens is that some people get so full of themselves that they lose the ability to digest truth. May Allah continue to increase your abilities to seek truth, find truth, read truth, accept truth, absorb truth and spread truth inshallah

Sadly Shiaman answers himself for himself. What a sad state for someone who says he has read 200 books, honestly if even it would have even read 5% of the 200, the quality of the posts would have spoken more than what has been produced so far. 

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1 hour ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

It speaks to the quality of your proof if it's traditions whose chains are problematic, if its books whose authors are notably unknown, if there are gaps between the narrators making verification of the transmission of a tradition difficult, and if your translations are demonstrably bad but you can't do anything other than rely on them because you can't actually read primary sources in the original language yourself. In such a scenario perhaps consider you aren't bringing good proof and the other person isn't just attempting to do anything to get out of having to accept maybe you're justified in your belief. And that if you're saying there's no point discussing because your proofs are demonstrably poor and you can't verify things yourself because you lack the evidence, but instead choose to dismiss people as unorthodox and arguing aimlessly when they show problems with what you bring, that you're just willing to do anything to keep believing what you believe uncritically.

Yes I agree with you. Everyone is wrong except for you and Ibn Al-Hussain. Go ahead and do some more self-image projections...

1 hour ago, haideriam said:

 

Sadly Shiaman answers himself for himself. What a sad state for someone who says he has read 200 books, honestly if even it would have even read 5% of the 200, the quality of the posts would have spoken more than what has been produced so far. 

Still male-cheerleader.jpg

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16 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Yes I agree with you. Everyone is wrong except for you and Ibn Al-Hussain. Go ahead and do some more self-image projections...

 

From someone who is constantly harping on about defeating the others(Sunnis and atheists)......frankly they must have got fed up of you, but that is your objective.

Just admit it you are just envious of the learned brothers and that is why your heart uses such envious language. Envy is not good for the soul. 

Edited by haideriam

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27 minutes ago, haideriam said:

From someone who is constantly harping on about defeating the others(Sunnis and atheists)......frankly they must have got fed up of you, but that is your objective.

Just admit it you are just envious of the learned brothers and that is why your heart uses such envious language. Envy is not good for the soul. 

My sincere advice to you, just stop talking to these guys. With his last post I really have to evaluate how valuable my time is. This is especially reflected in our attempts to try to bring quality research in our discussions, whether they be primary sources or secondary sources, or it is referring to expert treatment of the materials, or it is trying to analyze the Arabic text seriously to see what conclusion is best derived. We have seen nothing like that from their side, just self congratulating and insulting, which would be fine if they at least referred to something beyond translations from al-Islam.org. A list of better uses of your time:

  • Reading al-Tabari, whether in English (since the translation is so good) or in Arabic.
  • Reading expert scholarly treatments of Fadak, Karbala, and the event of the door.
  • Studying Arabic, Farsi, or even Polish.
  • Hitting your head on a wall.

I've thrown in the towel cause I have better things to do, you could even go to their methodology of bringing quotes from "grand ayatollahs" and I don't think these guys would care. They're just not worth the time and effort.

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1 hour ago, haideriam said:

From someone who is constantly harping on about defeating the others(Sunnis and atheists)......frankly they must have got fed up of you, but that is your objective.

Just admit it you are just envious of the learned brothers and that is why your heart uses such envious language. Envy is not good for the soul. 

But wouldn't I be more envious of our marajae who are  "probably" more learned than these two??? I say probably because they freely do critique our marajae. 

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6 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

But wouldn't I be more envious of our marajae who are  "probably" more learned than these two??? I say probably because they freely do critique our marajae. 

I know it is far beyond you to know the difference between an academic critique and an ignorant critique(what you do). 

Your disease is envy and hate(which is what you do internally to yourself too)

Start to feel sorry for yourself and change yourself. 

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4 hours ago, haideriam said:

I know it is far beyond you to know the difference between an academic critique and an ignorant critique(what you do). 

Your disease is envy and hate(which is what you do internally to yourself too)

Start to feel sorry for yourself and change yourself. 

Is this you?

lucy-stelter.jpg

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30 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Is this you?

A very coward like approach from one who tries to derail a topic of which he has no knowledge and is afraid to examine and scrutinize the material that has come to us. 

Too coward like to even admit that "I don't know and would some more knowledgeable members come forward to progress the discussion". Insecure at admitting a shortcoming of lack of knowledge. 

Truly sad at the state of these class of Shias. No wonder when the Imam(عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) comes these are the people who will say what new religion have you brought to us. 

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15 minutes ago, haideriam said:

A very coward like approach from one who tries to derail a topic of which he has no knowledge and is afraid to examine and scrutinize the material that has come to us. 

Too coward like to even admit that "I don't know and would some more knowledgeable members come forward to progress the discussion". Insecure at admitting a shortcoming of lack of knowledge. 

Truly sad at the state of these class of Shias. No wonder when the Imam(عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) comes these are the people who will say what new religion have you brought to us. 

21jnvl.jpg

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Based on above post, last part about responsibility and ensuring clarity by well wishers is applicable here. Primary Directive should be providing Overall Clarity of bigger picture - to Lay people. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235060920-migration-of-Imam-hussain-as/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-3196675

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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On 2/2/2019 at 7:20 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

My sincere advice to you, just stop talking to these guys. With his last post I really have to evaluate how valuable my time is. This is especially reflected in our attempts to try to bring quality research in our discussions, whether they be primary sources or secondary sources, or it is referring to expert treatment of the materials, or it is trying to analyze the Arabic text seriously to see what conclusion is best derived. We have seen nothing like that from their side, just self congratulating and insulting, which would be fine if they at least referred to something beyond translations from al-Islam.org. 

While I can see how I have pushed your buttons (reciprocal of course), brothers @S.M.H.A. and @Salsabeel have been nothing but respectful and polite towards you despite your rhetoric against them. Fact is you expected everyone to simply accept what you are saying and your anger is stemmed out of your arrogance.

The level of your anger is such that now you bring al-Islam into it. Your real anger is that you have been shown up by a couple of laymen who have a much better understanding of faith than you and of course at me for not bowing my head to your 'knowledge'.

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On 2/2/2019 at 7:20 PM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

you could even go to their methodology of bringing quotes from "grand ayatollahs" and I don't think these guys would care.

It is far better than bringing quotes and statements of person who is alleged homosexual, mentioned as "greatest liar of the nation" in historical records. 

On 1/30/2019 at 12:38 AM, Salsabeel said:

Lets have a looks some more important things about al-Jahiz:

Alleged to homosexuality!!!

Tarik As-salat!!!

Greatest liar of the nation, lowest in his speech, supporter of evil!!!! 

:hahaha:, You can find all these quotations on the link below:

http://www.qsm.ac.il/arblanguage/docs/majalla/1/2-eng-khalil.pdf

Instead of forcing us to accept your research, I suggest you to see the research of other people too, like what is mentioned in the above link.

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2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

It is far better than bringing quotes and statements of person who is alleged homosexual, mentioned as "greatest liar of the nation" in historical records. 

Instead of forcing us to accept your research, I suggest you to see the research of other people too, like what is mentioned in the above link.

I never asked you to accept my research, I asked you to be fair in considering something other than the opinions of grand ayatollahs who aren't qualified to talk about every subject and be given the blind deference you and your friends wished to give them. It wasn't probably until page 5 of this thread that you tried to take this discussion seriously and didn't just flat out dismiss @Ibn al-Hussain, even then you don't seem to have been willing to take him or his arguments seriously.

I don't think you saw this post of mine which was in response to @ShiaMan14's quoting me (twice funnily enough, here and in that thread). I only have the same thing to say to you so you can consider all said there applicable to you. If you know Arabic at all, you know it only at a at a very basic level. You aren't acquainted with either Quranic or Classical Arabic well and you cannot appreciate al-Jahidh or his status in Arabic linguistics (which remains whether or not he was a sodomite). I really do hope you all can improve your demeanor and behavior, as of now it's pitiable and it was regretful I tried to engage with you at all.

The only thing I can say to you right now is congratulations on not plagiarizing again and linking to us the research you'd like us to see. Sad the bar has been set that low, though.

wassalam

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6 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

I asked you to be fair in considering something other than the opinions of grand ayatollahs who aren't qualified to talk about every subject and be given the blind deference you and your friends wished to give them. It wasn't probably until page 5 of this thread that you tried to take this discussion seriously and didn't just flat out dismiss @Ibn al-Hussain, even then you don't seem to have been willing to take him or his arguments seriously.

With all due respect my dear brother! I have told you that I am not the relevant person to counter the arguments of your friend as I not specialized in this field. A better place for presenting research is howza ilmiya itself. You asked me to do my own research, so I started it and begin to question your friend in light of what I was reading, and I was started receiving insulting comments like I know nothing about basic Arabic grammar and I am rude, ignorant, unaware, difficult person who need to work on my own personality.

While till now, your friend haven't produced anything except the statement of al-Jahiz where he allegedly confessing that he has fabricated the sermon. We are skeptical about this confession because of the character of al-Jahiz as he was mentioned as "greatest liar" and "support of evil" in historical records. We still don't know what his arguments are!! We have just seen a promise that he will post a detailed research somewhere in future. How can we or anyone else simply accept the unknown arguments?? 

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6 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

The only thing I can say to you right now is congratulations on not plagiarizing again and linking to us the research you'd like us to see. Sad the bar has been set that low, though.

I have already presented my point of view on page 2, 

On 1/22/2019 at 2:18 AM, Salsabeel said:

Being a common man, I would just say that if the sermon available with us in our history books, a genuine one and are the words of Syeda Fatima (s.a), may Almighty Lord grant best reward for those who have preserved her blessed & pure words. If it is a fabrication, everyone knows what the fabricator would have earned by that. 

I also want to point out to everyone that at grass root level, the love of Syeda Fatima (s.a) in our hearts is independent of what historical records suggest and what opinion any scholar holds about any specific historical event.  

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

I have already presented my point of view on page 2,

[Relevant Text:]

Being a common man, I would just say that if the sermon available with us in our history books, a genuine one and are the words of Syeda Fatima (s.a), may Almighty Lord grant best reward for those who have preserved her blessed & pure words. If it is a fabrication, everyone knows what the fabricator would have earned by that. 

I also want to point out to everyone that at grass root level, the love of Syeda Fatima (s.a) in our hearts is independent of what historical records suggest and what opinion any scholar holds about any specific historical event.  

Salams,

I actually am in agreement with you here. Whether or not the sermon is by Sayyida Fatima is one point, but that it allows us to connect to her and her suffering relates to a higher truth about mourning for the ma'sumin.

wallahu a'lam

wassalam

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On 2/4/2019 at 6:47 AM, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

but that it allows us to connect to her and her suffering relates to a higher truth about mourning for the ma'sumin.

That's really interesting. Could that be a possible reason why learned authorities who may be aware of some of the reliability issues nevertheless support narratives such as this?

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