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Sermon of Fadak - is it reliable?

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Surely, there exists in the hearts of the Mu’mineen (believers), with respect to the martyrdom of Hussein , a heat that never subsides.

[Mustadrak al-wasail vol 10 pg 31]

Basically he is claiming the Prophet Muhammad  knew that Hussain  was going to be martyred…what is your take on this?

So I started looking in the Sunni references.  My focus was to find out whether the Prophet  knew that his grandson al-Hussain  was going to be martyred, whether he referenced it anywhere, or told anyone.  As Ahlu-Sunnah, we believe that the Prophet  does not know the future on his own, so it would have to be some form of revelation from God.  Alḥamdulillāh, I found some really good and elaborate discussion on this topic, from the Hadith point of view,  in Silsitat al-Ahaadeeth as-Saheehah by Sheikh Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani, vol. 3, p. 159, hadith 1171.  Here, and for the sake of brevity, I will not mention all the narrations or references that the Sheikh mentioned in his book.  Rather, I will focus on three distinctive narrations [from three different Companions] found in Musnad al-Imam Ahmad, followed by some commentary (basically grading the level of authenticity of each narration) by Sheikh al-Albani .

 

The Narration of Ali bin Abi Talib 

حدثنا محمد بن عبيد حدثنا شرحبيل بن مدرك عن عبد الله بن نجي عن أبيه أنه سار مع علي، وكان صاحب مطهرته، فلما حاذى نينوى وهو منطلق إلى صفين فنادى علي: اصبر أبا عبد الله، اصبر أبا عبد الله بشط الفرات، قلت وماذا؟ قال: دخلت على النبي ذات يوم وعيناه تفيضان، قلت: يا نبي الله أغضبك أحد؟ ما شأن عينيك تفيضان؟ قال: بل قام من عندي جبريل قبل فحدثني أن الحسين يقتل بشط الفرات، قال: فقال هل لك إلى أن أشمك من تربته؟ قال قلت نعم. فمد يده فقبض قبضة من تراب فأعطانيها فلم أملك عيني أن فاضت. أخرجه أحمد ٨٥/١

Narrated Muhammad bin Udaid, narrated Shurahbil bin Mudrik, from Abdullah bin Nujayy, from his father, that he traveled with Ali , and he used to carry his purifying water.  When they were next to Nainawa on his way to Siffin, Ali  called, “Be patient Oh Abu Abdillah (the kunya of his son al-Hussain), be patient Oh Abu Abdillah by the banks of the Euphrates.  I [Nujayy] said, “what is this?”.  He [Ali] said, “I entered upon the Prophet  one day while his eyes were shedding tears.  I said, ‘what is it with yours eyes shedding tears?’.  He said, ‘Rather, Jibreel was here earlier and he told me that al-Hussain will be killed by the bank of the Euphrates and he [Jibreel] said ‘do you want me to provide you a sample from his soil [where he will be killed] so you can smell it?’ and I said ‘yes’.  So he extended his hand and he took a grip from the soil and gave it to me so I couldn’t help my eyes to fill with tears'”.  [Recorded by Ahmad, vol. 1, p. 85.]

Sheikh al-Albani  commented on this narration:

قال الألباني: قلت وهذا إسناد ضعيف، نجي والد عبد الله لا يدرى من هو كما قال الذهبي، ولم يوثقه إلا ابن حبان، وابنه أشهر منه، فمن صحح هذا الإسناد فقد وهم

“I say this is a weak chain of narration.  Nujayy the father of Abdullah is unknown according to Dhahabi, and no one said he’s reliable except ibn Hibban.  His son is more famous than he is.  So whoever authenticated this chain has erred.”

The Narration of Anas bin Malik 

حدثنا مؤمل حدثنا عمارة بن زادان حدثنا ثابت عن أنس بن مالك أن ملك القطر استأذن ربه أن يأتي النبي فأذن له، فقال لأم سلمة املكي علينا الباب لا يدخل علينا أحد، قال وجاء الحسين ليدخل فمنعته، فوثب فدخل فجعل يقعد على ظهر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وعلى منكبه وعلى عاتقه، قال: فقال الملك للنبي أتحبه؟. قال نعم. قال: أما إن أمتك ستقتله، وإن شئت أريتك المكان الذي يقتل فيه. فضرب بيده فجاء بطينة حمراء، فأخذتها أم سلمة فصرتها في خمارها. قال قال ثابت: بلغنا أنها كربلاء. أحمد ٢٤٢/٣

Narrated Mu’ammal, narrated Umaarah bin Zaadaan, narrated Thaabit from Anas bin Malik that the Angel of Rain took permission from his lord to visit the Prophet  so He gave him permission. The Prophet told Umm Salamah  to watch the door so no one could come in. Al-Hussain  came wanting to enter and I stopped him. But he jumped, entered, and started sitting on the back of the Prophet  [al-Hussain was a young child at the time], and on his shoulders. Then the angel asked the Prophet , “Do you love him?”. He said, “yes”. The angel said, “Indeed your Ummah will kill him, and if you wish, I can show you the place where he will be killed”. Then, he struck with his hand and came with red clay. So Umm Salamah  took it and tied on it in her veil. Thaabit [the sub-narrator] said, “it has reached us that it’s Karbala”. [Recorded in Musnad al-Imam Ahmad, vol. 3, p. 242]

Sheikh al-Albani  said about this chain of narration:

قلت ورجاله ثقات غير عمارة هذا. قال الحافظ: صدوق يكثر الخطأ. وقال الهيثمي: رواه أحمد وأبو يعلى والبزار والطبراني بأسانيد، وفيها عمارة بن زادان وثقه جماعة وفيه ضعف وبقية رجال أبي يعلى رجال الصحيح

“Its narrators are trustworthy except for Umaarah. Al-Haafidh [ibn Hajar] said about him, ‘he tells the truth but his mistakes are many’. Al-Haythami said, “this hadith was narrated by Ahmad, Abu Ya’la, al-Bazzar, and Tabarani through several chains, in it is Umaarah bin Zaadaan, some affirmed his trustworthiness but he has some weakness. The remaining narrators of [the chain of] Abu Ya’la are the narrators of Sahih [narrators found in Bukhari and Muslim].'”

So we see here that al-Albani  related to us the difference of opinion regarding one narrator in this Hadith and that is Umaarah bin Zaadaan. The issue with Umaarah is not trustworthiness but rather his weak memory which renders this narration as slightly weak.

The Narration of Umm Salamah, the Wife of the Prophet 

حدثنا وكيع قال حدثني عبد الله بن سعيد عن أبيه عن عائشة أو أم سلمة. قال وكيع: شك عبد الله بن سعيد. أن النبي قال لإحداهما: لقد دخل علي البيت ملك لم يدخل علي قبلها فقال لي: إن ابنك هذا حسين مقتول، وإن شئت أريتك من تربة الأرض التي يقتل بها. قال: فأخرج تربة حمراء. مسند الإمام أحمد ٢٩٤/٦

Narrated Wakee’, narrated Abdullah bin Sa’eed, from his father from Aisha or Umm Salamah [Wakee’ said this doubt came from Abdullah bin Sa’eed] that the Prophet  said to one of them [either Aisha or Umm Salamah ], “An angel entered the house on me, he never entered on me before, and he said to me, ‘this son of yours, al-Hussain, will be killed, and if you wish I can show you the soil from the Earth where he will be killed’. Then he took out some red soil”. [Recorded in Musnad al-Imam Ahmad, vol. 6 p. 294]

Al-Albani  commented on this narration,

قلت: وهذا إسناد رجاله كلهم ثقات رجال الشيخين فهو صحيح إن كان سعيد وهو ابن أبي هند سمعه من عائشة أو أم سلمة، ولم أطمئن لذلك، فإنهم لم يذكروا له سماعا منها، وبين وفاته ووفاة أم سلمة نحو أربع وخمسين سنة وبين وفاته ووفاة عائشة نحو ثمان وخمسين سنة. والله أعلم

“This chain of this narration has all trustworthy narrators, narrators of the two Sheikhs [I.e. Bukhari and Muslim]. Therefore, this narration is authentic IF Sa’eed, and he’s ibn Abi Hind, has heard it from Aisha or Umm Salamah . But I’m not at peace with that since they [Hadith scholars] have not mentioned that he has heard from her. Meanwhile, between his death and the death of Umm Salamah  is about 54 years, and between his death and the death of Aisha  is about 58 years, and Allah  knows best.”

So again we see here a slight weakness in the narration. Everything looks good except the question of whether Sa’eed bin Abi Hind heard from one of the wives of the Prophet  or not. Here we’re not negating that he heard from them. We just don’t possess solid evidence that he did. Also, you notice here the precision of the scholars of Hadith in calculating the difference in death years between narrators. Depending on the gap, this can increase or decrease the likelihood of one narrator meeting the other or hearing from them.

Final Verdict on the Hadith

As we see from above, every narration has a slight weakness one way or another. So what’s the final verdict? Does the story stand. Can we say that the Prophet , for certain, was told that his grandson, al-Hussain , was going to be killed? And the answer is YES.  Al-Albani makes the following conclusion after going over more narrations:

قلت وبالجملة فالحديث صحيح بمجموع هذه الطرق، وإن كانت مفرداتها لا تخلو من ضعف، ولكنه ضعف يسير، لا سيما وبعضها قد حسنه الهيثمي، والله أعلم

“Altogether, the Hadith is authentic by collectively considering all the chains of narration. This is true even though each single chain is not free from defects, but it’s minor defects. This is not to mention that some of those chains were graded as Hassan [less authentic than Sahih, yet authentic] by al-Haythamee.  And Allah knows best.”

Here al-Albani  is following a well-known rule among the scholars of Hadith. If the Hadith is narrated through different chains of narrations all with slight weakness, then the chains of narration corroborate each other and the minor weakness is overlooked. This means that the essence of the story holds true. However, unique details mentioned in one version but not the other don’t have to be authentic. For example, we notice that there is no agreement on who the angel is among the narrations. One narration mentions Jibreel, another mentions the Angel of Rain, yet another doesn’t identify the angel at all. So here we don’t have to dwell on this difference since we may not have enough evidence to prove it one way or another.

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235060208-the-massacre-of-Karbala-a-historical-analysis-non-Shia-view/

 

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2 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

why you should not really be trusting Ibn Abi Tayfur - he is not a scholar of hadith, rijal, fiqh, kalam or anything

He may be not a faqih but the book itself which contains the speeches of many ladies related to Islamic history, qualifies him as a historian.

If you're doubting his collection of the sermon of Syeda Fatima (s.a), what opinion you hold about rest of the collection mentioned in the book? 

I will stay on this book for a while, and you need to answer all my questions.

Edited by Salsabeel

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1 hour ago, haideriam said:

Salsabeel brother well done for the effort, at least you put in an honest days work rather than carpet bomb without any understanding.

 

Just loved that.  

Hehehe. At least I am accused of fanboying over an Ayatollah. You are fanboying over R.I.G.

@Ibn al-Hussain - still waiting for you to present evidence and proof about the facts you know about me. But we will get nothing or may be some snide comments referring to me in the 3rd person. Your personal fanboy will attest how trollish I can get.

Edited by ShiaMan14

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7 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Salams,

Posted on Page 4

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Why is it that all the things which seem to confirm what you believe are "more reliable and trustable" for you, whether it's islamquest answers or articles off of al-Islam.org. Funny enough analyzing the chain of Dala'il al-Imamah is besides the point considering the actual attribution of the book to al-Tabari al-Shi`I is questionable. You can read more about that in the article of Dr... Hasan Ansari (a turbaned scholar and published academic): http://ansari.kateban.com/post/2166 (note: as he himself states in that article, he is not even the only muhaqqiq who has espoused this position).

 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235048350-sermon-of-Fadak-is-it-reliable/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-3194894

 

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@Ibn al-Hussain, I have done my home work and just need to compile all the notes into one post. Before doing that, I just want to present before you and have your comments on a chain from Dalael Al-Imamah which is as under:

حدّثنی أبو المفضّل محمّد بن عبد اللّه، قال: حدّثنا أبو العبّاس أحمد ابن محمّد بن سعید الهمدانی، قال: حدّثنا أحمد بن محمّد بن عثمان بن سعید الزیّات، قال: حدّثنا محمّد بن الحسین القصبانی، قال: حدّثنا أحمد بن محمّد بن أبی نصر البزنطی[عن] السّکونی، عن أبان بن عثمان الأحمر، عن أبان بن تغلب الرّبعی، عن عکرمة، عن ابن عبّاس، قال: لمّا بلغ فاطمة (علیها السلام) إجماع أبی بکر على منع فدک‏»

Furthermore, I also like to ask about:

"Al-Hasan bin A'lwan from A'tiya al Oofi from Abdullah bin Hasan from his father"

 

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On 1/23/2019 at 4:41 PM, haideriam said:

Please let it go brother and apologize to brother Ibn al-Hussain and be brotherly and not confrontational so that you can learn like the rest of us for he knows way far more than you or me will know. 

Being confrontational is the sunnah of the Imams and being even more confrontational is the sunnah of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). if you don't believe me, just ask @Ibn al-Hussain.

Let's see if you are a follower of the Ahlul-Bayt and speak haq now or a follower of Bani-Ummayya and side with ba'atil.

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brothers @Salsabeel   and @S.M.H.A.

Thank you for the tremendous effort you have put forth in proving the authenticity of the Sermon of Fadak without a doubt.

While we were being accused of setting moving target, it was @Ibn al-Hussain who kept changing his stance - first having a problem with one chain, then another, then another. Even though the variety of chains makes the sermon more credible. When all else failed, his 'expert' opinion failed to understand how a 5-yr old girl in 11th hijri could remember the Sermon.As all true Shias will attest, 5-yr Zainab bint Ali (عليه السلام) had more knowledge, understanding, wisdom and  memory than @Ibn al-Hussain could amass in 5 lifetimes.

When I first joined ShiaChat, I had serious discussions with a Quranist - I discussed and argued with them with my little bit of knowledge of the Qur'an.


Then came a group of Sunnis who constantly attacked us. I discussed, argued and mostly defeated them with my limited knowledge of Qur'an and ahadith. One of them @Fahad Sani (now banned) even listed me as his biggest rival on ShiaChat. But our discussions were held with proper etiquette and respect since he was quite genuine. I successfully argued with @submitter71 on the Shia knowledge of the Qur'an.

When ShiaChat was down a few years ago, I started visiting an anti-Shia site where I was challenged on the Shia belief in Tahreef of Qur'an. I was late by one day when their spy @Abul Hussain Hasani  called me out on ShiaChat that Jasim was waiting for me on the other site. Not only did I defeat him but them went on the attack and proved how Caliphs Umar & Uthman and Aisha believed in tahreef. Jasim responded back on that site that he was too busy to debate with me anymore.

The Quranists have gone. Shia/Sunni Dialogue is virtually done - there is not much activity there. Staunch wahabis are gone.

But there is one group still remaining and it is the most dangerous one. For the past 1.5 years or so, this group has been plaguing ShiaChat in the name of reform and advance thinking. Reform and Advance thinking are not as much an issue as is there continuous attacks on usul-e-deen, furuh-e-deen, azadari and our esteemed marajae.

My approach with this group has been different than yours. Wildfires are fought with water, sand and at times fire. So while you do fantastic work as sand and water, I prefer the fire approach with this group and all 3 are required. Their objective is plant the seeds of doubt in as many minds as possible in as many areas of religion as possible. My position and tactic is to attack them and their positions with such fervor that they think 10 times before every post and I think we have been somewhat successful collectively. Their spread of confusion and doubt has decreased but not completely eradicated.

So I encourage you to continue to do the good work that you do and inshallah you will be rewarded for it in this world and the next. @Ibn Al-Hussain accused me of being a fanboy of Ayatollah Golpaygani. I am your fanboy too :)


 

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@ShiaMan14, @Ashvazdanghe, @S.M.H.A., @Sirius_Bright

Brothers, Let me present before you what I have gathered till now. And this work perhaps help @Ibn al-Hussain & @Ibn Al-Ja'abi too. 

As I have said, I have placed my trust on the reputed scholars who have spent their whole life in understanding the "kalam-e-Ma'soom" and I know they are familiar with the smell and taste of that blessed kalam. 

While studying the subject, I came to know that this sermon has over 25 chain of narrators and some 90 narrators. I also come to know the existence of this kalam in the books which are non existent now but their names are present in historical records according to which , Abu Mikhnaf al Azdi (d .154 AH) penned a mono graphic title “Khutbat al-Zahra (s.a)”  (al-Dhari’ah vol 7, P203). This by far is the oldest clue I am able to gather of this sermon. 

Lets now see the details of narrators: 

First Level (tabaqah):

ʿAbdullāh ibn ʿAbbās (d. 68 A.H.)
ʿĀishah bint Abī Bakr (d. 58 A.H.)
 al-
usayn ibn ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib (‘a) (d. 61 A.H.)
 Zaynab bint
ʿAlī ibn Abī ālib (‘a) (d. 62 A.H.)

Second Level:

al-Ḥasan ibn al-Ḥasan ibn ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib (d. 97 A.H.)
ʿAlī ibn al-Ḥusayn Zayn al-ʿĀbidīn (d. 95 A.H.)
ʿIkrimah ibn ʿAbdillāh ibn Mūsā ibn ʿAbbās (d. 104 A.H.)
Urwah ibn Zubayr ibn ʿAwām (d. 93 A.H.)
Zaynab bint al-Ḥusayn (‘a), the wife of Ḥasan ibn al-Ḥasan

Third Level:

Abd al-Raḥmān ibn Kathīr al-Hāshimī (d. 120 A.H.)
 Aṭiyyah ibn Saʿd ibn Junādah al-ʿAwfī (d. 111 A.H.)
Jābir ibn Yazīd al- Juʿfī (d. 128 A.H.)
Muḥammad ibn ʿAlī al-Bāqir (‘a) (d. 114 A.H.)
Muḥammad ibn Muslim ibn ʿUbaydillāh al-Zuharī (d. 124 A.H.)
Ṣāliḥ ibn Kaysān (d. 140 A.H.)
Zayd ibn ʿAlī ibn al-Ḥusayn al-Shahīd (d. 121 A.H.)

Fourth Level:

Abān ibn Taghlib (d. 141 A.H.)
ʿAbdullāh ibn Ḥasan ibn al-Hasan (d. 145 A.H.)
ʿAbdullāh ibn Muḥammad al-ʿAlawī (d. 145 A.H.)
 al-Ḥasan ibn Ṣāliḥ  ibn Ḥayy (d. 168 A.H.)
al-Sharqī ibn al-Quṭāmī (d. 158 A.H.)
ʿAmr ibn Shimr ibn Yazīd al- Juʿfī (d. after 160 A.H.)
ʿAwānah ibn al-Ḥakam ibn ʿAyāḍ  (d. 158 A.H.)
Ḥarb ibn Maymūn al-Anṣārī (d. ~ 160 A.H.)
Jaʿfar ibn Muḥammad al-Ṣādiq (‘a) (d. 148 A.H.)
Muḥammad  ibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār (d. 151 A.H.)
Muḥammad ibn Sāʾib al-Kalbī (d. 146 A.H.)
 

 Fifth Level:

Abān ibn ʿUthmān al-Aḥmar (d. 182 A.H.)
ʿAbdullāh ibn Yūsuf al-Ḥusayn ibn ʿUlwān al-Kalbī (d. 2nd  Century A.H.)
al-Ḥusayn ibn Zayd ibn ʿAlī (d. 190 A.H.)
ʿAlī ibn Ḥassān ibn Kathīr al-Hāshimī
Muḥammad ibn ʿAmr ibn ʿUthmān al- Juʿfī (d. 2nd  Century A.H.)
Mūsā ibn ʿĪsā ibn Muḥammad  al-ʿAbbās al-Hāshimī (d. 183 A.H.)
Nāʾil ibn Najīḥ al-Baṣrī
ʿUbaydullāh ibn Mūsā al-ʿAmrī (d. 175 A.H.)

Sixth Level:

ʿAbdullāh ibn al-Ḍaḥḥāk (d. 206 A.H.)
 Aḥmad ibn Muḥammad ibn Abī Naṣr al-Bazanṭī (d. 221 A.H.)
 al-ʿAbbās ibn Bakkār al-Ḍabbī (d. 222 A.H.)
 Hishām ibn Muḥammad (d. 206 A.H.)
Ismāʿīl ibn Mihrān (d. 220 A.H.)
Muḥammad ibn Abī ʿUma yr (d. 217 A.H.)
Muḥammad ibn al-Ḥusayn al-Qaṣabānī (d. 221 A.H.)
Muḥammad ibn Sulaymān
Muḥammad ibn ʿUmārah
Muḥammad ibn Ziyād al-Ziyādī (d. 3rd  Century A.H.)
ʿUbaydullāh ibn Muḥammad (d. 228 A.H.)
ʿUbaydullāh ibn Mūsā al-ʿAbsī (d. 221 A.H.)

Seventh Level:

ʿAbd al Jalīl al-Bāqilānī
 al-Ḥasan ibn Mūsā al-Khashshāb (d. 260 A.H.)
 Jaʿfar ibn Muḥammad (d. 260 A.H.)
 Jaʿfar ibn Muḥammad ibn ʿUmārah
Mufaḍḍal ibn Ibrāhīm al-Ashʿarī
Muḥammad ibn Aslam (d. 270 A.H.)
Muḥammad ibn Khālid al-Barqī
ʿUthmān ibn ʿImrān al-ʿUjayfī
 Yaḥyā ibn al-Ḥusayn ibn Zayd (d. 237 A.H.)
Zayd ibn ʿAlī ibn al-Ḥusayn ibn Zayd (d. 270 A.H.)  


Eighth Level:

ʿAbdullāh ibn Muḥammad ibn Sulaymān
Aḥmad ibn Abī ʿAbdillāh al-Barqī (d. 274 A.H.)
Aḥmad ibn Abī Ṭāhir, better known as Ibn Ṭayfūr (d. 280 A.H.)
Aḥmad ibn Muḥammad ibn Muḥammad ibn Saʿīd al-Zayyāt
Aḥmad ibn ʿUbayd ibn Nāṣiḥ (d. 273 A.H.)
Muḥammad ibn Mufaḍḍal ibn Ibrāhīm al-Ashʿarī
Muḥammad ibn Qāsim al-Saymāmī (d. 282 A.H.)
Muḥammad ibn Zakariyyā al-Baṣrī (d. 298 A.H.)
Sulaymān ibn Ibrāhīm (d. 288 A.H.)

Ninth Level:

Aḥmad ibn ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz al- Jawharī (d. 323 A.H.)
Aḥmad ibn ʿAbdillāh ibn Quḍāʿah al-Ṣafwānī (d. 4th  Century A.H.)
Aḥmad ibn Muḥammad al-Makkī (d. 322 A.H.)
Aḥmad ibn Muḥammad ibn Yazīd (d. 307 A.H.)
ʿAlī ibn al-Ḥusayn al-Saʿd Ābādī
Muḥammad  ibn Aḥmad ibn Muḥammad al-Kātib (d. 322 A.H.)
Muḥammad  ibn Mūsā ibn al-Mutawakkil (d. after 310 A.H.)
 

Tenth Level:

ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz ibn Yaḥyā al- Jalūdī (d. 332 A.H.)
ʿAbdullāh ibn Aḥmad ibn Ṭayfūr (d. 352 A.H.)
 ʿAbdullāh ibn Isḥāq (d. 329 A.H.)
 Aḥmad ibn Muḥammad ibn Saʿīd al-Hamadānī, better known as Ibn ʿUqdah (d. 332A.H.)
ʿAlī ibn al-Ḥusayn better known as Abū al-Faraj Isfahānī (d. 356 A.H.)
 ʿAlī ibn Hārūn ibn ʿAlī ibn Yaḥyā (d. 352 A.H.)
 Ḥātim ibn Abī Ḥātim al-Qazwīnī (d. 305 A.H.)
 Muḥammad  ibn Aḥmad al-Ṣafwānī (d. 352 A.H.)


A note here for @Ibn al-Hussain is the narrator at 7th level I.e., Zayd ibn ʿAlī ibn al-Ḥusayn ibn Zayd (d. 270 A.H.) from which ibn Tayfur narrated the first hadith.  
 

On 1/26/2019 at 2:26 PM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Now next step should be for you to figure out how Abu al-Fadhl Ibn Abi Tayfur who was born in 204 AH can be speaking to Abu al-Husayn Zayd the son of Imam Sajjad (a) who died in 120 AH, when there is an 84-year gap between when Zayd died and when Ibn Abi Tayfur was only born.

What a shame this is!!! You're studying the history and rijal in howza, yet you failed to grasp the figure. 

This is the part 1 of the notes I have gathered, In-sha Allah, I will add the second part after finishing my existing job which is not allowing me to spare time for this difficult job. 

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13 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

 Brothers, Let me present before you what I have gathered till now.

 

You are just copy-pasting from the works of other writers, which I have already read and scrutinized before you even knew they existed. But as I said, I applaud you for your efforts.

Quote

Abu Mikhnaf al Azdi (d .154 AH) penned a mono graphic title “Khutbat al-Zahra (s.a)”  (al-Dhari’ah vol 7, P203). This by far is the oldest clue I am able to gather of this sermon. 

1

Inshallah when I write my full response to you, which will be a very lengthy article, you will see how some publishers have misunderstood this book to be about the sermon of Zahra (a), instead of it being a sermon of Imam Ali (a). It will show you the depth of the problem and lack of research and precision by scholars and publishers and scribes. There was no such book called Khutbah al-Zahra; rather it was called al-Khutbah al-Zahra a sermon of Imam Ali - and those who know Arabic know the huge difference between the two titles.

Quote

A note here for @Ibn al-Hussain is the narrator at 7th level I.e., Zayd ibn ʿAlī ibn al-Ḥusayn ibn Zayd (d. 270 A.H.) from which ibn Tayfur narrated the first hadith.  What a shame this is!!! You're studying the history and rijal in howza, yet you failed to grasp the figure. 

2

I will reply to this rebuttal. Unfortunately, you think I have not done my due diligence and have not read this response lol. 

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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15 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:



 And this work perhaps help @Ibn al-Hussain & @Ibn Al-Ja'abi too. 

 

What a shame this is!!! You're studying the history and rijal in howza, yet you failed to grasp the figure. 

 

I have liked your reply as you are learning to present genuine questions which are logical and follow the flow of the argument in helping our understanding better. 

The ones I highlighted in your post are some negatives. In a pure post there cannot be any room for a negative, for in trying to gain knowledge a negative shuts a door of understanding. 

Well done otherwise

 

Edited by haideriam

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4 minutes ago, haideriam said:

In a pure post there cannot be any room for a negative, for in trying to gain knowledge a negative shuts a door of understanding. 

I must offer thanks to you for pointing out this to me. 

Jazak Allah Brother!

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6 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

I will reply to this rebuttal. Unfortunately, you think I have not done my due diligence and have not read this response lol. 

:) I will be waiting for your response!!! Hope that by now, I will be able to spare some time to compile & upload the second copy of my notes in which I have discussed and analyzed your methodology in light of the historical facts which I are available with me at the moment. And let me assure you brother, that will be a lengthy postmortem report :pushup2: perhaps you would hate it. 

 

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I am studying Ayatullah Baqar Al-Sadar ((رضي الله عنه)) at the moment, and trying to get a copy of rijal al-nijashi and ilal al-sharai, I would appreciate if you share link where I can study these books. 

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3. They claim that this sermon is the speech of poet (Abul A'yna or Ibn Jahiz etc): 

The sermon of Syeda Fatima (s.a) contain 36 verses of Qur'an. Perhaps brother @skyweb1987 can mention the significance of the number 36 or 3+6=9 :) what would it means!! 
I am just presenting the verses which have been included in that sermon:


Verses mentioned in the sermon of Fadak:

1.       Sūratul Māʾidah (5): 3.
2.      Sūrah Ibrāhīm (14): 34
3.      Sūrah Ibrāhīm (14): 7
4.      Sūratul Aʿraf (7): 204
5.      Sūratul Barā’at (9): 103
6.      Sūratul Zumur (39): 10
7.      Sūratul Baqarah (2): 179
8.      Sūratul Dahr (76): 7
9.      Sūratul Māʾidah (5): 90
10.   Sūratul Nūr (24): 23
11.    Sūrah Āle ʿImrān (3): 102
12.    Sūratul Fāṭir (35): 28
13.   Sūratul Tawbah (9): 128
14.   Sūratul Naḥl (16): 125
15.    Sūratul Aḥzāb (33): 33
16.   Sūrah Āle ʿImrān (3): 103
17.   Sūratul Anfāl (8): 26
18.   Sūratul Māʾidah (5): 54
19.   Sūratul Tawbah (9): 49
20.  Sūratul Kahf (18): 50
21.   Sūrat Āle ʿImrān (3): 85
22.  Sūratul Saff (61): 8
23.  Sūratul Māʾidah (5): 50
24.   Sūrah Maryam (19): 27
25.  Sūratul Naml (27): 16
26.  Sūrah Maryam (19): 5-6
27.  Sūratul Anfāl (8): 75
28.   Sūratul Nisāʾ (4): 11
29.  Sūratul Baqarah (2): 180
30.   Sūratul Anʿām (6): 67
31.    Sūrat Hūd (11): 39
32.  Sūrat Āle ʿImrān (3): 144
33.  Sūratul Shuʿarā (26): 227
34.  Sūrat Hūd (10): 121-122
(I have kept the 2nd part with me and will upload it after watching the response of @Ibn al-Hussain.)

The third part will analyze the allegations of Kuffar when they said Qur'an as "kalam" of poet and the similar allegation we have witnessed that the speech of Syeda Fatima (s.a) is the kalam of poet(s). I am holding this analysis too at the moment, God willing, upload it at its proper time.

فَانْتَظِرُواْ إِنِّي مَعَكُم مِّنَ الْمُنتَظِرِينَ


 

Edited by Salsabeel
typo

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

I am studying Ayatullah Baqar Al-Sadar ((رضي الله عنه)) at the moment, and trying to get a copy of rijal al-nijashi and ilal al-sharai, I would appreciate if you share link where I can study these books. 

6

Just so you know, he wrote that book when he was 13 years old during his breaks and as great as he was as a child prodigy, the book has a number of deficiencies as shown by some senior contemporary scholars from the hawzah of Qom. I myself read the book when I was a teenager.

Rijal a-Najashi: http://lib.eshia.ir/14028

Ilal al-Sharai: http://ar.lib.eshia.ir/10107/1/311

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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12 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Being confrontational is the sunnah of the Imams and being even more confrontational is the sunnah of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). if you don't believe me, just ask @Ibn al-Hussain.

Let's see if you are a follower of the Ahlul-Bayt and speak haq now or a follower of Bani-Ummayya and side with ba'atil.

@ShiaMan14   This is the last time I am replying to your off topic one liner to overcrowd just to perhaps better your understanding 

Even Salah has a time and place like you cannot pray Fajr before retiring for the night. 

Brother Ibn al-Hussain, glad you pick your posts in the ones that can aid progression. Just keep on ignoring the other ones and Insha Allah we will progress to furthering our knowledge of our religion. 

Jazak Allah

 

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4 hours ago, haideriam said:

@ShiaMan14   This is the last time I am replying to your off topic one liner to overcrowd just to perhaps better your understanding 

Even Salah has a time and place like you cannot pray Fajr before retiring for the night. 

Brother Ibn al-Hussain, glad you pick your posts in the ones that can aid progression. Just keep on ignoring the other ones and Insha Allah we will progress to furthering our knowledge of our religion. 

Jazak Allah

So you are siding with "confrontational Imams". Expected as such.

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7 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Brothers, Let me present before you what I have gathered till now. And this work perhaps help @Ibn al-Hussain & @Ibn Al-Ja'abi too. 

As I have said, I have placed my trust on the reputed scholars who have spent their whole life in understanding the "kalam-e-Ma'soom" and I know they are familiar with the smell and taste of that blessed kalam. 

While studying the subject, I came to know that this sermon has over 25 chain of narrators and some 90 narrators. I also come to know the existence of this kalam in the books which are non existent now but their names are present in historical records according to which , Abu Mikhnaf al Azdi (d .154 AH) penned a mono graphic title “Khutbat al-Zahra (s.a)”  (al-Dhari’ah vol 7, P203). This by far is the oldest clue I am able to gather of this sermon. 

Lets now see the details of narrators: 

First Level (tabaqah):

ʿAbdullāh ibn ʿAbbās (d. 68 A.H.)
ʿĀishah bint Abī Bakr (d. 58 A.H.)
 al-
usayn ibn ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib (‘a) (d. 61 A.H.)
 Zaynab bint
ʿAlī ibn Abī ālib (‘a) (d. 62 A.H.)

....

Salams,

I wonder if all of this research has a source? https://www.academia.edu/6655640/The_Sermon_of_Fadak

I recognized it immediately because I read this paper some 3 to 4 years ago when I joined academia.edu. I'm not a fan of plagiarism, since I came to university I actively site whatever I find in secondary material on the forum.

Regarding the paper and its conclusion that the sermon is actually from Sayyida Fatimah, there are some underlying problems, e.g.  the presupposition of the reliability of Dala'il al-Imamah which many muhaqqiqin have a hard time attributing to any known author — and for good reason. Furthermore there's no good isnad-cum-matn analysis of this chain beyond just listing which narrators in which tabaqa, which would be necessary to see if this tradition truly has tawatur. And it still doesn't explain things like a contemporary of the people who admitted to fabricating this tradition also noting they fabricated it, despite having Shi'I leanings and narrating things like the event of the door in his book. Actually those two things would also need to be successfully explained if this sermon is to fit a historical narrative well.

 

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

So you are siding with "confrontational Imams". Expected as such.

So you've been going on about this a while, I have no idea how you address things from historical and hadith material which alludes to this. For God's sake, there's been a PhD dissertation that discussed the way Karbala is depicted in Maqtal literature, a big section of which dealt with Imam Husayn being depicted in the lion and lamb dichotomy. The earliest material shows him planning for a war from the earliest instances (including Abu Mikhnaf), shows him openly telling people that may their mothers weep for them, and shows him openly asserting his right. These are all essential parts of the Maqtal we hear today on the minbar, and all rather uncontroversial. If anything this fits into a theology neatly as it is the Imam's prerogative to claim whatever institution he wants since he is the representative of divine government.

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