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Sermon of Fadak - is it reliable?

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

at least even if they haven't fabricated the hadith as the below text suggests:

 

و لم يصنف الجاحظ هذا الكتاب، و لا استقصى فيه الحجاج للراوندية، و هم شيعة ولد العباس

 

You can't even understand this sentence and you think it says he didn't write the book? And you want to talk about al-Jahiz or figure out the eloquence of the sermon lol? This is the full sentence:

و لم يصنّف الجاحظ هذا الكتاب و لا استقصى فيه الحجاج للراوندية، و هم شيعة ولد العباس، لأنه لم يكن مذهبه و لا كان معتقده، و لكن فعل ذلك تماجنا و تطرّبا

It is utterly futile to have any productive conversation on topics that require Arabic as a bare minimum with someone who simply does not know the language. I don't say this to shy away from a discussion, but rather to emphasize that these discussions are not child's play where Google searches will help you get anywhere. Although I am sure you have realized that yourself by now.

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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7 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

You can't even understand this sentence and you think it says he didn't write the book? 

I am very impressed with your Arabic skiĺls. Would you dare translating the part I have quoted:

1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:
 

و لم يصنف الجاحظ هذا الكتاب، و لا استقصى فيه الحجاج للراوندية، و هم شيعة ولد العباس

lol, I have purposly omitted the following text. 

 

10 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

لأنه لم يكن مذهبه و لا كان معتقده، و لكن فعل ذلك تماجنا و تطرّبا

I

 

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

I am very impressed with your Arabic skiĺls. Would you dare translating the part I have quoted:

1

It says,

Al-Jahiz did not write the book nor collect the arguments in there for the Rawandiyyah - who were the Shi'a of the children of 'Abbas - because it was not his school of thought nor his creed. Rather he did it (I.e. wrote it) for entertainment and enjoyment.

Wasalam

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6 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

because it was not his school of thought nor his creed. Rather he did it (I.e. wrote it) for entertainment and enjoyment.

Please help me find where you have traslated this. I have just wuoted the half of his sentence. lol

I have just quoted the following:

9 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Al-Jahiz did not write the book nor collect the arguments in there for the Rawandiyyah - who were the Shi'a of the children of 'Abbas

The reason affirmation to fabrication was omitted because of the alleged confession of Abul A'yna.

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28 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

And you want to talk about al-Jahiz or figure out the eloquence of the sermon lol?

lol, I think it suits scholar like you to say "look how eloquently this liar has spoken a lie".

What is the punishment of fabrucating hadith of ma'soom?

A liar of this type is a La'een but he seems to me your ideal personality. lol

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3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Summing up the whole thread in one single question.

Who was al-Jahiz & company?  A کاذب as per hadith terminology? Person(s) identified according to your research as liar & sinner, confessing fabricating & publishing a hadith. 

Answer it @Ibn al-Hassan

:)

 

 

I think the discussion is getting a little ridiculous now with due respect. You argued that al Jahiz couldn't have fabricated the sermon because it was too eloquently written (you made this claim without even having a basic understanding of Arabic grammar, let alone prose) When it was pointed out to you that his linguistic skills and study of the Qur'an were at a level that allowed him to potentially fabricate such a sermon, your reaction was to somehow portray people as being followers of al Jahiz. This point is not only completely irrelevant, it is also dishonest. 

At the end of the day you do yourself an injustice and lose credibility when you do something like this.

Instead of insisting on debating points which are outside of your knowledge and capabilities it would perhaps be more adequate to simply admit that the discussion is out of your depth and to politely step aside. It is more honourable to simply admit that you don’t know, rather than to bluff. 

You don't have to agree with what the brothers are saying if it doesn't convince you, but you don't do yourself any favours when you try to debate topics for which you simply lack the basic and fundamental tools. 

I am not posting this just to single you out, but rather because there is an obsession among people in our religious community to rush into debates and polemics without always taking the time to develop the required skills and knowledge. This has resulted in people being destroyed in debates, not because their position was wrong but simply because they lacked the knowledge to prove their point correctly. 

Wallahu a'lam 

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11 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

1. You argued that al Jahiz couldn't have fabricated the sermon because it was too eloquently written

2. (you made this claim without even having a basic understanding of Arabic grammar, let alone prose)

1. It was a claim of @Ibn al-Hussain that he fabricated the hadith, and for that he has presented two evidences. I haven't claimed anything yet. The sermon is eloquently written, it is a fact and everyone accepts it. The reason why these guys are bringing al-Jahiz into picture is because he was the oldest famous figure known for his eloquence. 

What I have done so far is to show that how many verses have been mentioned in that sermon, showed that most of the verses are not mentioned completely, just few words have been taken from those verses in the construction of that sermon. What I have argued so far was the hadith specifically from Ibn-Tayfur. 

2. Are you claiming that I don't have basic understanding of Arabic grammar? 
 

19 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

at a level that allowed him to potentially fabricate such a sermon, your reaction was to somehow portray people as being followers of al Jahiz. This point is not only completely irrelevant, it is also dishonest. 

I don't care of what you guess about me brother. It remains a guess!!

It is better to answer the ultimate question asked by me in the end and let us know what is the punishment of one who fabricate hadith of ma'soom?
 

45 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Summing up the whole thread in one single question.

Who was al-Jahiz & company?  A کاذب as per hadith terminology? Person(s) identified according to your research as liar & sinner, confessing fabricating & publishing a hadith. 

Answer it @Ibn al-Hassan

Any answer?

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35 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

(you made this claim without even having a basic understanding of Arabic grammar, let alone prose)

 

On 1/25/2019 at 10:33 AM, Salsabeel said:

So you want me, a chemical engineer, to do the postmortem of his methodology. While I think the teachers of history & rijaal at howza ilmiyah are more relevent person for that job.

 

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Lets have a looks some more important things about al-Jahiz:

 

Quote

Regarding al-Jahiz, some scholars deny this suspicion of homosexuality. They consider him above it, but without dealing with it extensively or in a detailed way, or profound analysis of his thoughts on this topic. They seem to be satisfied with only one part of his arguments and they only refer to them indirectly32 . I mean that they refer only to those parts in some of his treatises that condemn homosexuality such as Mufakharat al-Jawari wa al-Ghilman/ Bragging of the Odalisques and the Catamites, The Teachers, Preference of the Abdomen to the Back. However, the scattered facts suggest the opposite to this. Obviously, al-Jahiz exposed the phenomenon of homosexuality just as a reaction and no more. So he condemns it, especially after it became so widespread in society and the people became annoyed of it. In addition, al-Jahiz used to work in the field of education and teaching young children. It appears that he was anxious about his reputation! It is worthwhile mentioning the viewpoint of the French researcher Charles Blat, who deals with this ambiguity only casually, and it is sufficient for him to say the following: "We should mention something about homosexuality that spread among the Arabs so widely that it became the main favorite topic among the libertine poets such as Abu Nuwas and others" 33. Blat does not give a detailed description of the topic in his study about al-Jahiz. Instead, he jumps and talks more about "miserliness" and "lying"!!

 


Alleged to homosexuality!!!

Quote

We should not forget that al-Jahiz does not give care to some duties of Islam. One witness says that "I attended a meal which al-Jahiz attended, and we attended the noon prayer. We prayed but al-Jahiz did not, and I attended the afternoon prayer, and we prayed but al-Jahiz did not. When we were about to leave, al-Jahiz said to the host: "I did not pray for a certain doctrine for a cause which I will let you know. He said to him: I do not think that you have a certain doctrine in praying; your only doctrine is leaving it!"36

Tarik As-salat!!!

Quote

Ibn Qutaybah comments on this: "You find that he intends frivolity in his books for the fools, and by this he seeks to attract the young people and the wine drinkers… and he – despite this - is one of the greatest liars of the nation and the lowest in his speech, and greatest supporter of evil!"37 So how can the reader trust his word if he has such qualities? How can he believe his condemnation of homosexuality, even if his words appear on the surface to refuse it and correspond with the spirit of Islam and its teachings?

Greatest liar of the nation, lowest in his speech, supporter of evil!!!! 

:hahaha:, You can find all these quotations on the link below:

http://www.qsm.ac.il/arblanguage/docs/majalla/1/2-eng-khalil.pdf


 

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Ayatollah Javadi Amoli empjasized that Sermon of Fadak muust teach in Seminaries & to people his eminence said :

Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

«وَ سَتُنَبِّئُكَ ابْنَتُكَ بِتَضَافُرِ أُمَّتِكَ عَلَی هَضْمِهَا فَأَحْفِهَا السُّؤَالَ وَ اسْتَخْبِرْهَا الْحَال‏»؛

Your daughter is your guest, now comes to your presence and reports on the flow of Saqifah and the likes of Saqifa to your wallet that the "Ummah" gathered to remove Fatima (sa).They said: "One day they say that Ibrahim is Khalil of the Ummah,"  إبراهيم أمة واحدة "; when they say that a nation has raised to crush Abraham Khalil, this implies a commitment that Abraham is a united nation; if they said that a nation would rise to crush Zayd (رضي الله عنه), It turns out that Zayd (رضي الله عنه)was a nation, because Zayd, if he was normal, a normal person could have put him to death. the Hazrat Amir (عليه السلام) introduces the blessed Sadiqa Kobra (sa) , saying that the Ummah was gathered to remove Fatima; that is, Fatima is the Ummah! Because if a normal person did not need to revolt a nation to get her out of hand. The Umma was attended by Saqifa. Those who were from solos and contracts, they were raised up  society, and at the same time they were grounded the Ahl al-Bayt (ams).his Eminance stated: The existence of blessed Fatima (sa) is at the same level as the Qur'an, it is not true that the Qur'an is true and Fatima (sa) does not know, or Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) does something and practice,  which has not said in the Qur'an; therefore, she is the counterpart of the Qur'an.He emphasized the need to introduce Her Holiness Fatima to all the world, saying: Now, someone who is a counterpart to the gospel has seized the world, the east and west of the world are called "Mary", Christianity was able to introduce her to the world, so we We should not only endorse the tears and moans, but we must introduce the Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to the whole world.

http://fa.abna24.com/news/اخبار-مراجع-عظام-تقلید/خطبه-«فدکیه»-در-حوزه‌ها-تدریس-و-جنبه‌های-مختلف-آن-برای-مر_746920.html

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

I think the discussion is getting a little ridiculous now with due respect. You argued that al Jahiz couldn't have fabricated the sermon because it was too eloquently written (you made this claim without even having a basic understanding of Arabic grammar, let alone prose) When it was pointed out to you that his linguistic skills and study of the Qur'an were at a level that allowed him to potentially fabricate such a sermon, your reaction was to somehow portray people as being followers of al Jahiz. This point is not only completely irrelevant, it is also dishonest. 

At the end of the day you do yourself an injustice and lose credibility when you do something like this.

Instead of insisting on debating points which are outside of your knowledge and capabilities it would perhaps be more adequate to simply admit that the discussion is out of your depth and to politely step aside. It is more honourable to simply admit that you don’t know, rather than to bluff. 

You don't have to agree with what the brothers are saying if it doesn't convince you, but you don't do yourself any favours when you try to debate topics for which you simply lack the basic and fundamental tools. 

I am not posting this just to single you out, but rather because there is an obsession among people in our religious community to rush into debates and polemics without always taking the time to develop the required skills and knowledge. This has resulted in people being destroyed in debates, not because their position was wrong but simply because they lacked the knowledge to prove their point correctly. 

Wallahu a'lam 

very nicely brought out and the sad part is that they are just within a few threads tearing whatever reputation they had of integrity to shreds. Definitely Shias are not like this. 

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21 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

How about you just not post anything for the time being and spare us all. I think we have all seen these 7 pages have not gone anywhere.

 

21 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Don't turn this about 'Ulum al-Qur'an if you do not know anything about it - you can open a new thread to figure out who named the Surahs - Allah, Prophet, or the people lol. The average Shi'a today (especially if they do not know Arabic, but even those who do) has no clue about 'Ulum al-Qur'an. That is why you had to google Al-Jahiz and Ijaz al-Qur'an and read from http://aboutislam.net/shariah/Qur'an/quranic-miracles/inimitability-of-Qur'an-meanings-types/ to copy paste something random.

There are only two serious books on 'Ulum al-Qur'an translated into English, one by Ayatullah Khu'I that is written for an advanced audience, and the other is a very abridged version of Ayatullah Hadi Ma'rifat's few-volume work that barely scratches the surface.

Anyways, this is getting too silly - I aint' got time for this nonsene. lol you think Allah named the Surahs :hahaha:. If you saw real 'Ulum al-Qur'an discussions, you would wet your pants and maybe even end up doing takfir of Ayatullah Khu'I. Just stop.

Wasalam

 

23 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Are you seriously thick? Do you even comprehend what I write or is your job just to spam copy-pasted links and long excerpts from different websites?

Wasalam

I appreciate the others have made several derogatory remarks about you, that's wrong and you have every right to feel upset about that, and frankly the mods should have stepped in and closed this thread a while ago.

However, you are a representative of the hawza and should know better. You have well and truly lost your cool, and let your ego get the best of you with these comments above.

@Ibn Al-Ja'abi You've just added fuel to the fire.

21 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

These three threads need to be inducted into the hall of fame. You, @S.M.H.A., @ShiaMan14, @Salsabeel, and @skyweb1987, have, combined, run (from my count) 4 would-be-interesting discussions into the ground copy pasting stuff that you don't understand yourself. In the 10 years I've been reading this site, I've never seen a circus like this. One the one hand I hope you actually seriously read something through for once and give it more than 5 seconds of thought, on the hand, not doing that gave us these legendary threads. :hahaha:

Can the mods please sort this out.

@Haji 2003 @starlight @notme

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I think the one thing at which we all will agree is the "truth". Shia are not like those who deny & reject the truth. 

I have seen nothing but speculations in the arguments supporting the OP. While we will definitely expand the scope of discussions when one claim that so & so has fabricated the sermon. Now it is expanded and al-Jahiz lovers are viewing facts about him. What Abu Qutaiba al-Dinori (d. AH 267) said about him is present in historical records I.e., He was the biggest liar in the nation. 

The references given by @Ibn al-Hussain too showing him a liar (in fact biggest liar) who has made the confession of fabricating the hadith of ma'soom.

Hence as per rijal & hadith terminologies, al-Jahiz is a liar as well as Laeen too. While there is report in the book of ibn tayfur, denying that the sermon was a fabrication. @Ibn al-Hussain failed to counter that hadith, all of what he said about the first person mentioned in the chain, proved wrong. 

So, it may be hard for you to watch your teacher losing his ground. 

And I am out of it now finally, so don't backbite me. If anyone want to address me, PM me as I will not visit this thread again.

Wassalam.

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Salsabeel brother

The problem is that when we read something new we think we have discovered the fatal blow. Brother please have faith that Ibn al-Hussain has done his due diligence and what ever you thought you were throwing at him he has gone two steps ahead to explain and guide. 

I am feeling grateful that the brothers who are here at the moment are some of the best we have in terms of knowledge and we can make use of it for our betterment and progress. 

Never be afraid or scared of discussing ideas and trains of thought but do try to recognize the various levels we are all at and then either teach or learn. Without this recognition we show our own ignorance. 

Also the asking of unintelligent ill thought of questions lends to the interest and effort of the subject under discussion.

As long as we all learn a good lesson then we have gained something at least from the discussion, be it gaining a good habit or losing a bad habit. 

PS. It is like when people try and show an aya or a hadith to Ayatullah Sistani for Shahadat e Salisa(not topic of discussion here), Ayatullah Aqeel Gharavi says that they insult themselves by thinking that the Faqih has not seen the aya or hadith. 

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8 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

I think the one thing at which we all will agree is the "truth". Shia are not like those who deny & reject the truth. 

Hence as per rijal & hadith terminologies, al-Jahiz is a liar as well as Laeen too. While there is report in the book of ibn tayfur, denying that the sermon was a fabrication. @Ibn al-Hussain failed to counter that hadith, all of what he said about the first person mentioned in the chain, proved wrong. 

You talk about Arabic grammar and rhetoric. You talk about Rijal and Hadith. You talk about Ulum al-Qur'an and I'jaz al-Qur'an. All the while it is blatantly clear to me that you do not even know the ABCs of these subjects, nor how they are used and understood and what their implications are. The reason why I am not bothered to "counter" your responses is because you do not have any responses and all you have done is embarrass yourself too many times on the forum. I am not interested in trying to embarrass you or anyone else, I have nothing to gain from doing so, I have better things to do and my own readings, research and studies to work on. I am not bothered to engage with you, it is not a challenge for me, Alhamdolillah I am in the company of higher level students and scholars who I have access to and can engage with and learn from every single day. That being said, I have an opinion and in due time I will be posting an article discussing all aspects of this sermon and my position and its arguments will become clear. You make it sound like as if I don't know what the views of Shi'I scholars on this sermon are. In fact, it is not me who does not know the view of Shi'a scholars, rather you are the ones who do not know the views of Shi'I scholars who say that this sermon is fabricated. But, you guys are hastily jumping left right and center for no reason and continue to look silly to others on this forum.

This is your Ibn Tayfur that you want to rely on so much, maybe you should read what Ibn Nadim in his al-Fihrist quotes ٍabout him from his contemporaries:

ولم أر ممن شهر بمثل ما شهر به من تصنيف الكتب وقول الشعر، أكثر تصحيفا منه. ولا أبلد علما ولا ألحن. ولقد أنشدني شعرا يعرضه على في إسحاق بن أيوب، لحن في بضع عشرة موضعا منه. وكان (من) أسرق الناس لنصف بيت وثلث بيت

I have not seen anyone who had gotten famous for what he got famous for, the books he wrote and poetry he recited, for how corrupt they were, who was most stupid in his knowledge and whose language was most ungrammatical. He recited some poetry to me about Ishaq b. Ayyub and made around ten-or-so errors in it. No one plagiarized more than he did, half a line, or even a third of a line. 

Elsewhere Ibn Nadim quote:

كانت الأسمار والخرافات. مرغوبا فيها مشتهاة في أيام خلفاء بنى العباس، وسيما في أيام المقتدر. فصنف الوراقون، وكذبوا. فكان ممن يفتعل ذلك رجل يعرف بابن دلان واسمه أحمد بن محمد بن دلان، وآخر يعرف بابن العطار، وجماعة. وقد ذكرنا فيما تقدم من كان يعمل الخرافات والأسمار على السنة الحيوان وغيره، وهم سهل بن هارون وعلي بن داود والعتابي وأحمد بن أبي طاهر

The bookmen were [known for making up] superstitions and evening stories. They were in great demand and desired in the days of the Abbasid caliphs, especially during the days of al-Muqtadir. So the compilers/bookmakers would write and lie. Among those who fabricated material was a man known as Ibn Dallan - his name was Ahmad b. Muhammad b, Dallan. Another man was known as Ibn al-'Attar, and there were others. And we have already mentioned previously those who would create superstitions and evening stories, told through the tongues of animals and other creatures. They are Sahl b. Harun, Ali b. Dauwd al-'Attabi, and Ahmad b. Abi Tahir [ibn Tayfur].

Maybe you should now spend some time reading up on how wide-spread such fabrications were during the Abbasid dynasty and how poets, literary experts, grammarians etc. would go out of their way to produce material. They would get paid for it, or were looking for popularity and acceptance, or were simply interested in causing misguidance and so on. Such fabrications, fables and superstitions later crept into both Sunni and Shi'I works over the next few centuries.

If you want to see one good example of such an event which was an "evening story" made up and told by storytellers, look at Kamal al-Din of Shaykh Saduq and read the story titled: Incident of Bilohar and Yuzasif.

Wasalam

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10 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

You can find all these quotations on the link below:

http://www.qsm.ac.il/arblanguage/docs/majalla/1/2-eng-khalil.pdf

Perhaps you should read the next 8 pages as well to see the researcher's own conclusions where he says these scholars were not fair or objective and maybe re-read the opening paragraphs to see that the author is actually trying to defend al-Jahiz and his scholarship.

Wasalam

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53 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

You talk about Arabic grammar and rhetoric. You talk about Rijal and Hadith. You talk about Ulum al-Qur'an and I'jaz al-Qur'an. All the while It is blatantly clear to me that you do not even know the ABCs of these subjects, nor how they are used and understood and what their implications are.

I consider all this comments as your "willfull ignorance". Just read the thread from its beginning and remove know who I am and what I have said, thats the best I can suggest.

57 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

This is your Ibn Tayfur that you want to rely on so much, maybe you should read what Ibn Nadim in his al-Fihrist quotes ٍabout him from his contemporaries:

No one is "mine", neither ibn tayfur nor al-jahiz. I don’t know them, never studied about them before, and you're aware of it. 

So I suggest you instead of throwing allegations on me, better try to answer the questions asked.

What was the lie of ibn-jahiz? His confession that he has fabricated the sermon or his fabrication of sermon and related it to Syeda Fatima (s.a)? 

1 hour ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

I am not bothered to engage with you, it is not a challenge for me, Alhamdolillah I am in the company of higher level students and scholars who I have access to and can engage with and learn from every single day

Why're you thinking me as a challenge for yourself? I think you don't even like someone question you or if you are here to teach, you don't want to teach at all.

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3 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Perhaps you should read the next 8 pages as well to see the researcher's own conclusions where he says these scholars were not fair or objective and maybe re-read the opening paragraphs to see that the author is actually trying to defend al-Jahiz and his scholarship.

I advise you to paste here the whole conclusion. Its not bigger than a paragraph and half.

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8 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

the author is actually trying to defend al-Jahiz and his scholarship.

lol, just paste here the "conclusion" on the end of that research paper. I am using my cell phone and unable to share it.

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