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Sermon of Fadak - is it reliable?

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Salamualaykum,

I am not asking for people to give their opinions here, but to kindly present the following and only the following:

1. What is the earliest primary source/s for this sermon?

2. What are the chain of narrators?

3. Can it be proven that this sermon is in a primary source with an unbroken chain to an Imam [asws] and meets other criteria to deem it hasan or muwathaq at least?

4. If not, on what basis [other factor] does one take it?

 

Who exactly first reports this sermon - or are there variants?

If we have no reliable source for it, could i just suggest it is possible the sermon we claim again and again came from Fatima a.s was never actually uttered by her?

[From previous experience, some people take a genuine question as a means to insult me, or go off on a tangent. I only want evidence, or someone to explain and clarify this further. Also kindly don't post the sermon, nor call me a nasibi]/batri]

Lastly, al-islam.org is not a primary source my dear brothers and sisters! It is a website created well over 1400 years after. Bihar al Anwar is *not* a primary source, it was written well over 1000 years after.

Edited by QuranandAhlulbayt

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I have heard it is mutawatir, and if proven that would mean that the sermon did happen, and there is no doubt about it.

What there isn't, however, is a reliable chain to one the sermons (because there are different versions of it).

Read what brother @Nader Zaveri said here:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235022911-sahih-chain-of-narrators-for-khutbah-of-fadak/?do=findComment&comment=2707371

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In Mohammad bin Jarir Tabari’s Dalael al-Imamah different chains of transmission have been mentioned for Hazrat Fatima Zahra’s Fadak Sermon. This sermon has been narrated in various books authored by early Muslim scholars. The sermon is so famous and widely known that it is impossible to refute it. Muhammad bin Jarir bin Rustam Tabari is among the Imamiyah scholars and his book entitled “Dalael al-Imamah” is about the leadership of each of the infallible Imams (a.s.) as well as Fatima Zahra (a.s.). Discussing Lady Fatima Zahra’s biography or issues surrounding her life, Tabari deals with the subject of Fadak. Elaborating on “Fadak Tradition”, he first narrates the chain of the transmission of the hadith from different sources and channels. Among the chains of the transmission of the said tradition, he mentions the chain of the transmission in your message.
The chain of the transmission is as such: “Reported by Abul Hasan Muhammad bin Harun bin Musa Al-Talakbari who said, “My father (may Allah be pleased with him) reported and said, Abul Abbas Ahmed bin Saeid al-Hamedani, said that Muhammad bin Al-Mufadhal bin Ibrahim bin Al-Mufadhal  bin Qays Al-Ash’ari said that Ali bin Hassān reported from Amma Abdur Rahman bin Katheer from Abi Abdillah Ja’far bin Muhammad bin Muhammad (Imam Sadiq), peace be upon him from his grandfather, Ali bin Al-Hussein, from his aunt, Zainab daughter of the Commander of the Faithful, Ali bin Abi Talib, who said:  « لمّا أجمع أبو بکر على منع فاطمة (ع) فدکا....» [2] 

1. Muhammad bin Harun bin Musa Al-Talakbari is among the scholars of the Imamiyah school and one of the friends and classmates of the famous biographer, Najashi who reports some of the books through him from his father Harun bin Musa.  Muhammad bin Harun died in the year 408 A.H.

2. Najashi says about Muhammad bin Musa Al-Talakbari: Harun bin Musa is from Bani Shayban tribe. He is a respected person and a man of status, one who is trusted by people. He has a book titled “al-Jawami’ fi al-Ulum”. His son, Muhammad bin Harun and I were together in his house seeing people coming to recite ahadith in front of him.”

3. Ahmed bin Muhammad bin Saeid Hamedani is one of Imamiyah’s prominent scholars known for his knowledge and memorization of prophetic traditions. He is trustworthy, reliable and enjoys a high position among Imamiyah scholars and jurisprudents.

4. Muhammad bin Mufadhal bin Ibrahim bin Mufadhal bin Qays Al-Ash’ari who was known with the nom de guerre Abu Ja’far was one of the Kufa scholars. He is trustworthy and reliable. Among his books are “al-Taqiyah” and “Majalis al-Aemmah”.

5. As for Ali bin Hassān, there are two personalities known with this name, one being Ali bin Hassān bin Waseti and the other being Ali bin Hassān Hashemi.  Ali bin Hassān Wastei is trustworthy and reliable.[7] As for Ali bin Hassān bin Hashemi, he has been considered as dha’if (weak).[8] One way to distinguish between these two figures is to take notice of those who have narrated from them or those whom these two have narrated from. Technically speaking, in order to distinguish between these two narrators, it is important to look carefully at the narrators and the people from whom they have narrated. Ali bin Hassān Hashemi is he who narrates from his uncle, Abdur Rahman bin Katheer. In this narration also, he narrates from his uncle, Abdu Rahman bin Katheer. Clearly, Ali bin Hassān in this narration refers to Hassān bin Hashemi. Given that Ali bin Hassān who narrates from his uncle, Abdur Rahman bin Katheer, is in the chains of the transmission of Kamil al-Ziyaraat, according to some prominent scholars, he can be considered trustworthy but since the authentication of Ali bin Hassan in the chain of the transmission of Kamil al-Ziyarat goes against the statement of certain elites like Najashi, he cannot be regarded as trustworthy.

6. As for Abdu Rahman bin Katheer, he has been criticized by Imamiyah scholars to an extent that he has been accused of fabricating traditions.

7. After Abdur Rahman bin Katheer, the chain of the transmission of the hadith reaches Imam Sadiq (a.s.).  He narrates from his father, Imam Baqir (a.s.) who narrates from Imam Sajjad (a.s.) and Imam Sajjad narrates from Lady Zainab (a.s.) who narrates her holy mother’s sermon about Fadak being usurped and taken from her per force. Although these two people at the end of the chain of the transmission have been considered as weak and unreliable, narrators such as Muhammad bin Mufadhal, Ahmed bin Muhammad bin Sa’eid and Harun bin Musa Al-Talakbari have trusted the hadith which has been passed on by these people. This shows that there have been signs indicating the authenticity of this hadith in their opinion.
As we mentioned earlier, Muhammad bin Jarir Tabari has narrated this tradition from different sources and with different chains of transmission. The first chain of transmission ends in two prominent Sunni narrators i.e. Al-Akramah and he from Ibn Abbas. As well, this sermon has been narrated by Ibn Tayfoor (d.280 A.H.) with several intermediaries from Zainab (s.a.), and Abu Bakr, Ahmed bin Abdul Aziz Baghdadi has mentioned this sermon in his book. Ibn Abil Hadid praising and authenticating Ahmad bin Abdul Aziz says that he is one of the Sunni scholars. Therefore, this sermon is very well-known and it has been narrated by many a number of the early Muslim scholars.

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7 hours ago, E.L King said:

I have heard it is mutawatir, and if proven that would mean that the sermon did happen, and there is no doubt about it.

What there isn't, however, is a reliable chain to one the sermons (because there are different versions of it).

Read what brother @Nader Zaveri said here:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235022911-sahih-chain-of-narrators-for-khutbah-of-fadak/?do=findComment&comment=2707371

What do you think of the above post's claim of a reliable chain brother?

I can accept that the event took place and a sermon was given, but how can we possible know the wording for it?

Edited by QuranandAhlulbayt

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43 minutes ago, QuranandAhlulbayt said:

What do you think of the above post's claim of a reliable chain brother?

I can accept that the event took place and a sermon was given, but how can we possible know the wording for it?

It's not reliable based on looking at his post.

Quote

As for Abdu Rahman bin Katheer, he has been criticized by Imamiyah scholars to an extent that he has been accused of fabricating traditions.

As for knowing the wording for it, perhaps we start off as brother Nader said:

We should try to analyze the MOST authentic of the weak chains, and then see the wording. And then we can go from there.
Edited by E.L King

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On 4/12/2017 at 5:31 AM, E.L King said:

It's not reliable based on looking at his post.

So in the only chain i have been given, there is a known fabricator.

How can someone therefore potentially quote the sermon, and even analyse the wordings in depth, whilst not knowing if they actually came from Fatima a.s or not?

On 4/12/2017 at 12:34 AM, Hassan- said:

In Mohammad bin Jarir Tabari’s Dalael al-Imamah different chains of transmission have been mentioned for Hazrat Fatima Zahra’s Fadak Sermon. This sermon has been narrated in various books authored by early Muslim scholars. The sermon is so famous and widely known that it is impossible to refute it. Muhammad bin Jarir bin Rustam Tabari is among the Imamiyah scholars and his book entitled “Dalael al-Imamah” is about the leadership of each of the infallible Imams (a.s.) as well as Fatima Zahra (a.s.). Discussing Lady Fatima Zahra’s biography or issues surrounding her life, Tabari deals with the subject of Fadak. Elaborating on “Fadak Tradition”, he first narrates the chain of the transmission of the hadith from different sources and channels. Among the chains of the transmission of the said tradition, he mentions the chain of the transmission in your message.
The chain of the transmission is as such: “Reported by Abul Hasan Muhammad bin Harun bin Musa Al-Talakbari who said, “My father (may Allah be pleased with him) reported and said, Abul Abbas Ahmed bin Saeid al-Hamedani, said that Muhammad bin Al-Mufadhal bin Ibrahim bin Al-Mufadhal  bin Qays Al-Ash’ari said that Ali bin Hassān reported from Amma Abdur Rahman bin Katheer from Abi Abdillah Ja’far bin Muhammad bin Muhammad (Imam Sadiq), peace be upon him from his grandfather, Ali bin Al-Hussein, from his aunt, Zainab daughter of the Commander of the Faithful, Ali bin Abi Talib, who said:  « لمّا أجمع أبو بکر على منع فاطمة (ع) فدکا....» [2] 

1. Muhammad bin Harun bin Musa Al-Talakbari is among the scholars of the Imamiyah school and one of the friends and classmates of the famous biographer, Najashi who reports some of the books through him from his father Harun bin Musa.  Muhammad bin Harun died in the year 408 A.H.

2. Najashi says about Muhammad bin Musa Al-Talakbari: Harun bin Musa is from Bani Shayban tribe. He is a respected person and a man of status, one who is trusted by people. He has a book titled “al-Jawami’ fi al-Ulum”. His son, Muhammad bin Harun and I were together in his house seeing people coming to recite ahadith in front of him.”

3. Ahmed bin Muhammad bin Saeid Hamedani is one of Imamiyah’s prominent scholars known for his knowledge and memorization of prophetic traditions. He is trustworthy, reliable and enjoys a high position among Imamiyah scholars and jurisprudents.

4. Muhammad bin Mufadhal bin Ibrahim bin Mufadhal bin Qays Al-Ash’ari who was known with the nom de guerre Abu Ja’far was one of the Kufa scholars. He is trustworthy and reliable. Among his books are “al-Taqiyah” and “Majalis al-Aemmah”.

5. As for Ali bin Hassān, there are two personalities known with this name, one being Ali bin Hassān bin Waseti and the other being Ali bin Hassān Hashemi.  Ali bin Hassān Wastei is trustworthy and reliable.[7] As for Ali bin Hassān bin Hashemi, he has been considered as dha’if (weak).[8] One way to distinguish between these two figures is to take notice of those who have narrated from them or those whom these two have narrated from. Technically speaking, in order to distinguish between these two narrators, it is important to look carefully at the narrators and the people from whom they have narrated. Ali bin Hassān Hashemi is he who narrates from his uncle, Abdur Rahman bin Katheer. In this narration also, he narrates from his uncle, Abdu Rahman bin Katheer. Clearly, Ali bin Hassān in this narration refers to Hassān bin Hashemi. Given that Ali bin Hassān who narrates from his uncle, Abdur Rahman bin Katheer, is in the chains of the transmission of Kamil al-Ziyaraat, according to some prominent scholars, he can be considered trustworthy but since the authentication of Ali bin Hassan in the chain of the transmission of Kamil al-Ziyarat goes against the statement of certain elites like Najashi, he cannot be regarded as trustworthy.

6. As for Abdu Rahman bin Katheer, he has been criticized by Imamiyah scholars to an extent that he has been accused of fabricating traditions.

7. After Abdur Rahman bin Katheer, the chain of the transmission of the hadith reaches Imam Sadiq (a.s.).  He narrates from his father, Imam Baqir (a.s.) who narrates from Imam Sajjad (a.s.) and Imam Sajjad narrates from Lady Zainab (a.s.) who narrates her holy mother’s sermon about Fadak being usurped and taken from her per force. Although these two people at the end of the chain of the transmission have been considered as weak and unreliable, narrators such as Muhammad bin Mufadhal, Ahmed bin Muhammad bin Sa’eid and Harun bin Musa Al-Talakbari have trusted the hadith which has been passed on by these people. This shows that there have been signs indicating the authenticity of this hadith in their opinion.
As we mentioned earlier, Muhammad bin Jarir Tabari has narrated this tradition from different sources and with different chains of transmission. The first chain of transmission ends in two prominent Sunni narrators i.e. Al-Akramah and he from Ibn Abbas. As well, this sermon has been narrated by Ibn Tayfoor (d.280 A.H.) with several intermediaries from Zainab (s.a.), and Abu Bakr, Ahmed bin Abdul Aziz Baghdadi has mentioned this sermon in his book. Ibn Abil Hadid praising and authenticating Ahmad bin Abdul Aziz says that he is one of the Sunni scholars. Therefore, this sermon is very well-known and it has been narrated by many a number of the early Muslim scholars.

I don't deny the sermon is very well known, but my issue is, we have very different sermons and versions of this sermon, and i hazard to guess probably varying wildly at times.

Abdu Rahman bin Katheer has been accused of fabricating traditions, i.e, he is a liar that was known to make up traditions. Who relies on him and who doesn't?

The isnad must yield to the lowest common denominator, and no matter how strong others in the chain may be, if there is even one weak narrator, the sanad is weak.

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Salam , I think it the best thing that shows its reliable or not is Qur'an that this sermons completly matches with Qur'an and has no contradiction with it & if you don't accept it whole of it rational & contains great informations & knowledge inside it that only very knowledgeable person that has access to divine knowledge can say it 

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:salam:

The guys who fabricated the sermon (Abu al-'Ayna and al-Jahiz - interestingly both were literary experts and strong grammarians as well as poets) themselves admit to the fabrication. Refer to Tarikh Dimashq, v. 45 - around pg. 441. Unfortunately, the explanation for why these two individuals possibly fabricated the sermon requires expanding on many historical details, an analysis of the Rawandiyah Abbasid sect and so on. Based on experience, it doesn't seem like most members on the site have the ability to digest some of these discussions and hence I'll save my self the hassle.

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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42 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

And also:

https://www.al-Islam.org/fatimiyyah-ashura-lutfullah-safi-al-gulpaygani/historic-Fadak-sermon-Fatima

Above link is from Grand Ayatollah Lotfollah Safi Golpaygani

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51 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Hmmm, whom to believe???

Random Internet guy with a lot of posts or Grand Ayatollah Lotfollah Safi Golpaygani

Tough choice!!!

This is the problem here on Shiachat. I wouldn't say it a tough choice. It is however a choice of selecting person certified as aadil by Islamic semenary and known as aadil in the world or a random internet guy.

 

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7 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

:salam:

The guys who fabricated the sermon (Abu al-'Ayna and al-Jahiz - interestingly both were literary experts and strong grammarians as well as poets) themselves admit to the fabrication. Refer to Tarikh Dimashq, v. 45 - around pg. 441. Unfortunately, the explanation for why these two individuals possibly fabricated the sermon requires expanding on many historical details, an analysis of the Rawandiyah Abbasid sect and so on. Based on experience, it doesn't seem like most members on the site have the ability to digest some of these discussions and hence I'll save my self the hassle.

Wasalam

Salam brother

So the whole event is fabricated? Or is it perhaps just a version of it? If I remember correctly, doesn't it come through different chains (with differences in the exact wordings) or do these two individuals appear in all chains?

Edited by The Straight Path

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2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

This is the problem here on Shiachat. I wouldn't say it a tough choice. It is however a choice of selecting person certified as aadil by Islamic semenary and known as aadil in the world or a random internet guy.

 

Salam.

My "tough choice" comment was sarcastic.

:thankyou:

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41 minutes ago, The Straight Path said:

Salam brother

So the whole event is fabricated? Or is it perhaps just a version of it? If I remember correctly, doesn't it come through different chains (with differences in the exact wordings) or do these two individuals appear in all chains?

1

:ws:

The event of Fadak and what transpired between the lady (s) and the caliph is one thing, but the lengthy sermon we have with us today is another issue. Even if she actually did give a sermon, there is no way to say what we in our disposal today is actually her words. I am referring to the latter. Not only are the chains seriously problematic, and the fact that there is a confession by the fabricator, and that people were already discussing its fabrication in 3rd century Hijri as attested by the author of the earliest extant book in which the sermon is recorded in (Balaghat al-Nisa of Ibn Abi Tayfur), and the fact al-Mas'udi in his Muruj al-Dhahab describes how Jahiz would make up dialogues between Fatima (s) and Abu Bakr in his works; when you actually being analyzing the contents of it in Arabic you will start realizing that many terms and concepts simply were unheard of in 11 AH and were terms and concepts that developed over the next two centuries after the Prophet (p).

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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In Mohammed bin Jarir Tabari’s Dalael al-Imamah different chains of transmission have been mentioned for Hazrat Fatima Zahra’s Fadak Sermon. This sermon has been narrated in various books authored by early Muslim scholars. The sermon is so famous and widely known that it is impossible to refute it. 

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/en21752

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(A) Excerpts from her sermon in the Mosque

She stood in the Mosque, delivering her sermon. This had no equivalent in the Arabic history - an orator talking about the secrets of Islamic jurisprudence in all its major categories providing for every one of them its explanation and a clarification of the wisdom behind it. All this was to show the people the nature of the dynamic movement of this jurisprudence in their lives.

Thus, she entered into arguments around the issue of inheritance and its related verses, and her right in it.

We shall break her sermon into several parts, according to the topics with which each part deals.

(Because of the size of this book, the full text and full commentary of his eminence is not included here, only a few excerpts from the various parts, as divided up by his eminence. The translator.)

Part 1 - The Oneness of God

'Praise and gratitude to Allah for His bounties...'

'There is no God but Allah, the One, Who is impossible for the eyes to see, and the tongues to describe.'

'He innovated the things not from something before, and created them not in imitation of past models... to bring attention to his obedience/worship and to show his powers...'

Part 2 - The Secrets of Prophethood, the Message and the Qur'an

'I bear witness that my father Muhammad is His slave and messenger, He has chosen him before sending him... He sent him in completion of his matter... So Allah has lit by my father Muhammad their [the nations] darkness, and uncovered from the hearts the difficult matters...'

'You are the worshippers of Allah, in front of His do's and don'ts, and the bearers of His religion and revelation, and guardians of yourselves, and His messengers to the nations...'

'And a leader of truth with you, and a covenant which he presented for you... the speaking book of Allah and the truthful Qur'an, and the shining light... a leader to [Allah's] satisfaction is following it and leading to saving is hearing it...'

Part 3 - The Rationale and Goals of Islamic Jurisprudence

'Allah made belief a purification of you from polytheism, and prayer to lead you away from arrogance, and [religious] tax to elevate the soul and increase the income, and fasting to make firm (your) faithfulness, and pilgrimage a glorifying building of the religion...'

Part 4 - Justice, Imamah and other Jurisprudence Secrets

'... and justice to harmonize the hearts (of people)... and obedience to us [Ahlul Bayt] a [perfect] system for the nation, and our Imamah a safety from differences... And good conduct with the parents a protection from the anger [of Allah]... and punishment to save blood [souls]...'

Part 5 - Defending the Right and Truth

'O people! Know that I am Fatimah and my father is Muhammad! I say again from the start, and I do not say what I say wrongfully, nor do I do what I do without reason. If you seek his family descent you shall find him father of me and not your other women, and the brother of my cousin, not your men; and you have been on the edge of Hell. Humiliated people, fearing the raids of the people around you, so Allah the Most High saved you by Muhammad, every time they lit a war fire Allah extinguished it, Or the polytheists opened their mouths [with their canines to bite], he [the Prophet] send his brother [Ali] unto their mouth ceilings [I.e. sent him to the points of danger and death]; he would not come back until he stepped with his foot on their ears and extinguished their flames with his sword, tired for Allah's sake near to the Messenger of Allah, a master amongst Allah's holy people... Whilst you were in soft living... And when Allah chose for his Prophet the place of His Prophets and the shelter of His chosen [people], the enmity of hypocrisy showed up amongst you, and the dress of religion got worn out...Then he [Satan] called upon you and found you quick [in responding to his call], and made you angry [to instigate your bad response] and found you angry [behaving out of emotional reactions]... and that whilst the time was [still] near, and the calamity wide, and the wound still open, and the Messenger had just been buried!

Part 6 - Setting out the proof for her right to Fadak

'And you claim now that we have no inheritance! Don't you know? O yes, it has uncovered for you like mid-morning sun that I am his daughter... O son of Abu Quhafah [I.e. Abu Bakr]! Is it that by the Book of Allah you inherit your father and I do not inherit mine? You have committed a grave thing! Is it with intention that you have abandoned the Book of Allah and left it behind your backs when it says: "And Solomon inherited David" (Qur'an 19:16), and says in what it tells of the story of John the son of Zakariyyah when he has said: "... So grant me from thyself an heir. Who shall inherit me and inherit from the family of Jacob?" (Qur'an 19: 5-6) Has Allah made a verse exclusive for you and taken my father out of it? ... Or you are more knowledgeable in the particulars and general rulings of the Qur'an than my father and my cousin? Here is [the inheritance] for you [Abu Bakr] complete, to meet you on your day of judgement; for the best judge is Allah, and the leader [in the argument] is Muhammad and the date is the Judgement [day]...'

Then she looked to the side of the Supporters (Ansar) and said:

- 'O people of support, and supporters of religion, and embracers of Islam! What is this denial to my right, and silence about my grievance? Didn't the Messenger of Allah used to say: "The person is to be taken care of in his children?"

'O sons of Qaylah! Am I being usurped from my father's inheritance and you are looking and hearing?!... And you have the numbers and [battle] preparations... And you have the weapons and the shields...'

'You are the good choice which has been chosen for us Ahlul Bayt... You fought the Arabs, and withstood the difficulties and hardships... How come you deviate after clarification... and committed polytheism after belief? ... Do you fear them? Allah is more worthy of fear if you are truly believers!'

'O, since I see that you have favoured safe life, and turned away the one who is more worthy of ruling... if you become infidels you and all people on Earth, surely Allah is Self-sufficient, Most Praised...'

'Thus, I said what I said, whilst knowing the deviation which had befallen you... but it was the rage of the soul and the letting out of anger... And to present in advance the argument and advice...'

'It is in Allah's eyes what you do; and those who have committed injustice shall see where they will end up; and I am daughter of a warner to you of an imminent torture; so do, we will be doing, and wait, we shall be waiting.'

https://www.al-Islam.org/fatimah-a-role-model-for-men-and-women/chapter-3-role-model#excerpts-her-sermon-mosque

Fatimah al-Ma`sumah (as): a role model for men and women

Ayatullah Sayyid Muhammad Husayn Fadlullah

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8. Fatimah's (عليه السلام) elegy on Fadak

He said: Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Umar al-Ji’abi reported to me from Abu Abdillah Ja'far ibn Muhammad ibn Ja'far al-Hasani, who reported from Isa ibn Mehran, from Yunus, from Abdullah ibn Muhammad ibn Sulaiman al-Hashemi, from his father, from his grandfather, from Zainab ibn ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام) that she said:

When the opinion of Abu Bakr and his supporters became unanimous about depriving Fatimah, peace be upon her, from Fadak, and she lost all hope about his reconsideration, she came to her father's grave, threw herself upon it, and grievously complained about the way the {people} treated her. And she wept, till the Earth on the grave became wet with her tears, and then she said in her elegy:

"There have been after you news and incidents
were you to witness them, you would have disapproved them;
We have missed you, the way a parched land misses the rainfall,
your people are in total disarray, see how they have reneged.
Jibraeel used to endear us with the verses (of Qur'an),
but after you have hid from us, all good is also concealed;
You were the moon, from whose light people benefited,
and upon you was revealed the books - from the Lord Almighty.
Men have attacked us and humiliated us,
after the Prophet, and all wealth has been usurped; 
The perpetrator of injustices to us will know his fate 
on the day of Judgement, where he will finally land. 
We have come across things which no one before us,
neither from Arabs nor from the Ajam have suffered; 
So, we shall continue weeping over you as long as we live,
and as long as we have eyes which well up with flowing tears."

https://www.al-Islam.org/al-amali-dictations-shaykh-al-mufid/fifth-assembly#8-fatimahs-elegy-Fadak

Al-Amali, The Dictations of Shaykh al-Mufid

Shaykh al-Mufid

*****

Above is indirectly related. If you examine the  the Concepts in the original "Public" Sermon are above Tradition reported in Amali- Shaykh Mufid. 

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2 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

:ws:

The event of Fadak and what transpired between the lady (s) and the caliph is one thing, but the lengthy sermon we have with us today is another issue. Even if she actually did give a sermon, there is no way to say what we in our disposal today is actually her words. I am referring to the latter. Not only are the chains seriously problematic, and the fact that there is a confession by the fabricator, and that people were already discussing its fabrication in 3rd century Hijri as attested by the author of the earliest extant book in which the sermon is recorded in (Balaghat al-Nisa of Ibn Abi Tayfur), and the fact al-Mas'udi in his Muruj al-Dhahab describes how Jahiz would make up dialogues between Fatima (s) and Abu Bakr in his works; when you actually being analyzing the contents of it in Arabic you will start realizing that many terms and concepts simply were unheard of in 11 AH and were terms and concepts that developed over the next two centuries after the Prophet (p).

Wasalam

Salam brother Ibn al-Hussain

Many thanks and I wish we had someone as knowledgeable in terms of having read the same material as yourself to discuss this in more depth with academic counter arguments.

It is a pleasure to have people here one learns from.

Did you say you had attended the hawza!!

Wasalam

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2 hours ago, haideriam said:

Salam brother Ibn al-Hussain

Many thanks and I wish we had someone as knowledgeable in terms of having read the same material as yourself to discuss this in more depth with academic counter arguments.

It is a pleasure to have people here one learns from.

Did you say you had attended the hawza!!

Wasalam

Indeed. I am going to start a petition to remove the title of Ayatollah from the fake marja Lotfollah Safi Golpaygani.

Some crazy people think he is the most senior cleric in Iran after Ali Khamenei.

Down with Faketollahs!!!

Long live Internetollahs!!!

Edited by ShiaMan14

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I think before someone becomes a Dev Team member, a Mod or an Admin on ShiaChat, they should first be given a Course for Dummies so they know the difference between a "Grand" "Ayatullah" and what you are supposed to refer to them for so that and their jurisdiction, and experts in otheir fields, so they do not look like fools in front of others. Otherwise, it is tantamount to someone who has a medical ailment referring to a car mechanic for treatment, no matter how "grand" that car mechanic is.

Funny enough, another "Grand" "Ayatullah" of Lebanon decided to cast doubt in the whole event of the fire + door + rib. I am sure that Ayatullah is not so "Grand" in your eyes.

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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6 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Indeed. I am going to start a petition to remove the title of Ayatollah from the fake marja Lotfollah Safi Golpaygani.

Some crazy people think he is the most senior cleric in Iran after Ali Khamenei.

Salam source of it is Wikipedia that writes about him in biased ways that sources of their claims against his is from supporter of Ahmad Al Hasan (fake Yemani) because his books in Mahdaviat exposes their false claims & sites like as BBC that are supporting a blaphemous Rapper Shahin Najafi that did blasphemy in his rap songs inside Iran & Ayatollah Golpaygani was one o first persons that exposes & stand against him

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