Obligation to Destroy Idols

[jean_valjean]

What is the Shiite standpoint on this issue? And if it's true then aren't ISIS and taliban following religion in it's true form?

And why should we expect benevolence from non-muslims while we can't be benevolent to them and their place of worship?

1 – Muslim (969) narrated that Abu’l-Hayaaj al-Asadi said: ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib said to me: “Shall I not send you with the same instructions as the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sent me? ‘Do not leave any image without defacing it or any built-up grave without leveling it.’” 

2 – Muslim (832) narrated from ‘Urwah ibn ‘Abasah that he said to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “With what were you sent?” He said, “I was sent to uphold the ties of kinship, to break the idols, and so that Allaah would be worshipped alone with no partner or associate.” 

Source :  https://islamqa.info/en/20894

 

 Do answer with facts and references rather than mere opinions.

[Mansur Bakhtiari]

From my understanding, these ahadith are unauthentic. I have not come across any similar ahadith in our books

On 4/10/2017 at 4:52 PM, jean_valjean said:

?

1 – Muslim (969) narrated that Abu’l-Hayaaj al-Asadi said: ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib said to me: “Shall I not send you with the same instructions as the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sent me? ‘Do not leave any image without defacing it or any built-up grave without leveling it.’” 

 

This is unauthenic 100% as we Shia have nothing against the building of graves.https://www.al-Islam.org/spurious-arguments-about-Shia-Abu-talib-tabrizi/third-spurious-argumentvisiting-shrines-Prophets

On 4/10/2017 at 4:52 PM, jean_valjean said:

:  https://islamqa.info/en/20894

 

 

That website is wahhabi cancer. Seriously some of their fatwas are garbage. They are extremists. If you want a sincere, humble, realistic approach ask a Shia scholar.

On 4/10/2017 at 4:52 PM, jean_valjean said:

And if it's true then aren't ISIS and taliban following religion in it's true form?

 

They would, in theory, be following only one part of our religion properly. They have a LOT of other issues in their books and thought. Example?

Minhaj as Sunnah by Ibn Taymiyyah has some ugly things in it. These can be found on shiapen.com

Imam Ali married Fatima to harm her (naozobillah) is among them. If you have looked into Islamic history you will see that is not the case.

@Ibn al-Hussain may have some hadith which confirm or deny the other ones.you quoted Inshallah.

[ali_fatheroforphans]

As @Mansur Bakhtiari said, this is probably the worst site to educate yourself on Islam. This site has many crazy fatwas to support the actions of salafi extremists.  This site is full of inauthentic hadiths and very little does it mention any verse from the quran.

I have searched these hadiths online and they don't even seem authentic at all.

Edited April 11, 2017 by ali_fatheroforphans

[Sumerian]

^^^ To the commenters above, they are authentic for the Sunnis. They are from Sahih Muslim.

As for us, the obligation of destroying idols is only if they are being literally worshipped and it is in a Muslim country.

[Mansur Bakhtiari]

47 minutes ago, E.L King said:

^^^ To the commenters above, they are authentic for the Sunnis. They are from Sahih Muslim.

As for us, the obligation of destroying idols is only if they are being literally worshipped and it is in a Muslim country.

Is there any source from this? Like marja or hadith, preferably the latter. I am just as curious as the brother who started this thread.

[Sumerian]

2 hours ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

Is there any source from this? Like marja or hadith, preferably the latter. I am just as curious as the brother who started this thread.

Can you read Arabic?

[PersianPrince]

Why destroy something that neither harms or profits you? Especially if It  belongs to someone else. Wouldn't that be a crime (To destroy other people's property)? The prophets would destroy idols because that was their revelation (or job). But for an ordinary person to go and destroy property is a crime. 'There is no compulsion in religion', and to go around pretending that your better than other people (like a prophet or saint), then you have crossed those boundaries. Taliban and Al-Qaida have no sense in their thinking, they are not Muslim, and nothing they do is Islamic. Even in Iran, there are tombs of poets, saints, and other statues (Which are pretty much idols too, if you think about it)...If they were to be destroyed there would be no historic sites, museums, etc., remaining. In short, no, it is not our job to defile other people's religions. Those times (when the prophets were sent to mankind), were different than today, and it should never be confused just because of a hadith or misconception thereof. Islam teaches tolerance for other people's religion more than it does aggression towards other people's religion, especially if you follow the guidance of the Holy Quran properly.   

[Ibn al-Hussain]

Some may find this book interesting. Hisham ibn al-Kalbi's (d. 204 Hijri) work titled Kitab al-Asnam (Book of Idols), in which he discusses the gods of the pre-Islamic Arabs. The book has been translated into English and is available here: https://www.scribd.com/doc/140049780/65374754-The-Book-of-Idols-Kitab-Al-Asnam-by-Hisham-Al-Kalbi-pdf  

Not giving the Fiqhi perspective here, but what you will notice in the book above is that all the idols were eventually destroyed. Many of them were being worshiped even after the advent of Islam, and either once a tribe became Muslim they would destroy the idols themselves (there would have been no need to keep them, and centuries of idol-worship would have symbolically been attached to them and there would have been legitimate concerns for someone returning back to idol-worship), or they were destroyed once the Muslims took over a certain location or after winning a battle. You will also read in the book how Imam Ali (s) played a role in destroying some of these idols.

What is evident is that there doesn't seem to have been any hesitation in destroying these idols, especially since the Prophet commanded this to be done. He (s) seemed very adamant on removing all traces of these idols, which represented perhaps the worst form of polytheism at the time.

I think we can't compare that situation to the statues we may see around us today - but there is definitely a greater message in what the Prophet commanded to do for all of us even today. Furthermore, these Prophetic orders seem to be based in his political authority, not that it gives a free-license for all Muslims to go around destroying people's properties or public land-marks (whether they are being worshiped or not). Today under an Islamic state, it would be the job of the government to determine how they would deal with these statues (of course there is the whole discussion on whether statues are even allowed to be built or not, which once again seems that one can offer some interesting interpretations of that law when we give it some historical context).

------

Also slightly relevant, just came across this new article that discusses the earliest history of image-smashing in Islamic history.

The First Iconoclasm in Islam: A New History of the Edict of Yazīd II (AH 104/AD 723)

Abstract: This article offers a revised history of the iconoclastic edict of the Umayyad caliph Yazīd II, which was promulgated in 104/723. This edict is often interpreted as a precursor of Byzantine iconoclasm and as a forerunner of the Islamic doctrine of images. Yet this focus on later developments has obscured the law’s original purpose and meaning. This essay attempts to examine the issue anew by analyzing the written and archaeological evidence for the edict. In addition to presenting new sources and a revised dating, it situates Yazīd’s actions in the context of early dhimmī legislation; apocalyptic anxieties at the Umayyad court; concerns about social mixing between Muslims and Christians; the caliph’s sphere of activity in Transjordan; the emergence of a prohibition on images in Islamic thought; and the practice of Muslim prayer in churches.

https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/islam.2017.94.issue-1/islam-2017-0002/islam-2017-0002.xml?format=INT

Wasalam

Edited April 11, 2017 by Ibn al-Hussain

[jean_valjean]

On 4/10/2017 at 7:16 PM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

As @Mansur Bakhtiari said, this is probably the worst site to educate yourself on Islam. This site has many crazy fatwas to support the actions of salafi extremists.  This site is full of inauthentic hadiths and very little does it mention any verse from the Qur'an.

I have searched these hadiths online and they don't even seem authentic at all.

I know brother that it's a wahhabi site and that their interpretation might be twisted but probably the Hadith isn't (as pointed out by brother E L king), and that's what troubling me.

On 4/10/2017 at 7:57 PM, E.L King said:

^^^ To the commenters above, they are authentic for the Sunnis. They are from Sahih Muslim.

As for us, the obligation of destroying idols is only if they are being literally worshipped and it is in a Muslim country.

Source ?

And if it is so then why should we Muslims be treated better when in a non-Muslim country(specially countries like India etc where idolators are in majority) why shouldn't they feel threatened by our existence when we harbour ideologies which is detrimental to the existence of their religion?

On 4/11/2017 at 5:11 AM, said:

المحاسن للبرقي: عن أبي عبد الله، عن آبائه (عليه السلام)، عن أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) قال: بعثني رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله إلى المدينة فقال: لا تدع صورة إلا محوتها، ولا قبرا إلا سويته

Statues

 

I agree.
Nevertheless, it is not for every other person to go around destroying statues. Ibrahim عليه السلام did so, Imam Ali عليه السلام did so too in Mecca, Taif and other places. The important thing is, if truly in your heart there is no God besides God then breaking statues is fruitful, if done with other intentions, the person simply idolised himself and his ego.

As for obligation, this is better left for the Imam عجل الله تعالى فرجه  to issue the command as he has wisdom.

How did you conclude that it's not for every other person to go and destroy temples and idols? 

It would be better if we get both Shia and Sunni perspective on this issue.

[Sumerian]

30 minutes ago, jean_valjean said:

I know brother that it's a wahhabi site and that their interpretation might be twisted but probably the Hadith isn't (as pointed out by brother E L king), and that's what troubling me.

Source ?

And if it is so then why should we muslims be treated better when in a non-muslim country(specially countries like India etc where idolators are in majority) why shouldn't they feel threatened by our existence when we harbour ideologies which is detrimental to the existence of their religion?

How did you conclude that it's not for every other person to go and destroy temples and idols? 

It would be better if we get both Shia and Sunni perspective on this issue.

Can you read Arabic?

Do you know someone who can read Arabic for you?

[jean_valjean]

^^ no I can't understand Arabic.

[jean_valjean]

Quote

Backlash, repercussions, consequences ... Muslims are not in a position to be going around destroying symbols of other religions, we can just about talk about Ahl Bait عليهم السلام with other Muslims ...

So we would if we were in a position to do so? Or if we were dominant over them?

That doesn't sound right to me.

[jean_valjean]

Quote

That would be the time of the Imam عليه السلام, and he can advise us what is best...
I.e. no need to demolish anything now, nor start planning to demolish, wait until the Imam عليه السلام teaches us what the best course of action is ... it's never just about knowledge, it's always about wisdom.

Brother I want answers with references from Qur'an and Hadith and not just based on opinions.

And since these Hadith are from most authentic Sunni sources so I would also like to know what our Sunni brothers have to say about it, and why they shouldn't go on temple destroying spree after all it's Sunnah of sahaba (according to sahihain) ?

and if there are other Hadith which forbid such an action then kindly quote the Hadith.

[jean_valjean]

Quote

Sunnis do not promote destruction of statues and disrespecting religious symbols of other faiths (Centuries of Sunni rule will attest to this). Modern radical groups are an exception. The evidence is to be presented by them, not the majority. Muhadditheen like Muslim et al narrated what happened during the Prophet's صلى الله عليه وآله time, not that it should be repeated.

Sunni school of thought is primarily based on the idea of emulating Prophet and his actions (Sunnah) so unless otherwise prohibited they should, in theory, follow what Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his companions did. And so should we unless prohibited.

That's all I am looking for , a Hadith where such actions are prohibited until the reappearance of Mehdi (عليه السلام). which I believe must be there because it's illogical to think that Islam would allow Muslims to  destroy the idols  I and temples which are revered by people of other religion and also because "la Ikra-ha fi-ldin" or maybe the quoted Hadith isn't authentic. Because otherwise I think this Hadith puts us in a precarious position.

[jean_valjean]

^^Sorry I can't understand Arabic.

[realizm]

Not all statues are idols.

Not all idols are statues.