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Husayni

Why do us Shia say " Ya Ali Maddad! "

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1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

It seems to me that you are ignoring the very basic fact while involving in questioning me like that.
"Wa Huwa Ma'akum Aina Ma Kuntum" (57:4)

I prefer to hold patience on this takfeer.

what is the interpretation of verse 2:107?

are you saying that Allah shares his Wilaya with anyone else? because that is what is sounds like.

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36 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

acknowledging salawat breaks down the whole 'ya ali madad argument' 

we are to pray for imams, not pray to them

 

I think that for the people that you are discussing this with, this is an ok argument, as it befits their level of logic.

However, rationally, it isn't a good argument, because asking Allah to send blessing on them (peace be upon them) isn't asking Him to help them, they are two separate things.

In the same way that performing your ablutions when you are already in a state of purity is "light upon light" - so is sending blessings on the Prophet, peace be upon him and his family.

Your argument about them asking their followers for help in their lives is better, as you say why did they not just help themselves or ask one of their deceased forefathers for help (and if they point to sayeda Fatima (peace be upon her) shouting for her father, then that begs the question as to why the help didn't come) - in truth trying to think of all the angles of this absurd belief gives you a headache.

However I will say that the people who are attacking you for claiming that the Imams in some way failed in their mission are being highly hypocritical, as previous threads have shown, people get angry if you question whether or not all the infallibles were martyred because they claim it diminishes their status, meaning that limiting their achievement to what they achieved whilst they were alive is an insult, meaning that they also agree in some way that what they did in their lives was insufficient and only martyrdom can make up for that.

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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34 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

are you saying that Allah shares his Wilaya with anyone else? because that is what is sounds like

The whole post is present up there, why don't you just help yourself by reading it completely.  

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There is absolutely no need to present any argument to anyone. Allah knows best, what is in our hearts, you people keep on your guess work. As long as we are not believing anyone as God, there is no problem for us. 

Some times, we use this phrase as a tool, to distinguish between a mo'min and a munafiq. I am pleased to see what is going on here, couple of debaters got exposed at least.

Ali Haq, Ali Haq, Ali Haq
(Al-haqqo ma'aa Ali, wal Aliyyo ma'aa al haqq)

Ya Ali Madad

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24 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

I think that for the people that you are discussing this with, this is an ok argument, as it befits their level of logic.

However, rationally, it isn't a good argument, because asking Allah to send blessing on them (peace be upon them) isn't asking Him to help them, they are two separate things.

In the same way that performing your ablutions when you are already in a state of purity is "light upon light" - so is sending blessings on the Prophet, peace be upon him and his family.

Your argument about them asking their followers for help in their lives is better, as you say why did they not just help themselves or ask one of their deceased forefathers for help (and if they point to sayeda Fatima (peace be upon her) shouting for her father, then that begs the question as to why the help didn't come) - in truth trying to think of all the angles of this absurd belief gives you a headache.

However I will say that the people who are attacking you for claiming that the Imams in some way failed in their mission are being highly hypocritical, as previous threads have shown, people get angry if you question whether or not all the infallibles were martyred because they claim it diminishes their status, meaning that limiting their achievement to what they achieved whilst they were alive is an insult, meaning that they also agree in some way that what they did in their lives was insufficient and only martyrdom can make up for that.

Well Allah's blessings do help. I am surprised to see that you think that Allahs sala salam and baraka arent a form of help.

it is perfect argument to me as salawat is a dua to Allah for sake of imams ( please tell me im right about that one! ) , while the other people make duas to the imams.

they are a diifferent 180 degrees mentality.  One is to contribute, the other is to ask for their contribution.

just like the followers of moses didnt want to contribute, but instead asked moses to contribute by fighting with his God on their behalf.

thanfully this case is clear from all angles. Including the contributary nature of salawat dua

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1 minute ago, 313 Seeker said:

Answer yes or no! Does Allah have partners in His wilaya?

Don't try to put fingers in my mouth for taking out the words you want me to say.

You continue to think that way, think & think & think. What the verse 5:55 means, does Allah declaring Prophet & Imam Ali as His partner(na'uzobillah) or are they His AUTHORIZED representatives. Similarly, He only possess the knowledge of unseen, but when He wills to disclose that to His chosen ones, Is there anyone who can stop Him?

It seems to me that I am debating with Ibn-e-Taymiyyah!
 

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If we associate someone from ourselves with Allah, this is called shirk.
If Allah associate someone with Him, who can dare to call that shirk.

Examples:

1) Allah is sending blessings on Prophet, He called the angels & the believers with to join Him.
2) Allah is Malik-ul-Mulk, Is there anyone who can stop Him if He wills to give Mulkan Kabeera & Mulkan Azeema to His chosen ones? 
3) Allah is Wali-e-Barhaqq, the Absolute owner of the Wilayah, if He wills to give wilayah to His chosen ones, who is there to stop Him?

 
 

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20 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Well Allah's blessings do help. I am surprised to see that you think that Allahs sala salam and baraka arent a form of help.

it is perfect argument to me as salawat is a dua to Allah for sake of imams ( please tell me im right about that one! ) , while the other people make duas to the imams.

they are a diifferent 180 degrees mentality.  One is to contribute, the other is to ask for their contribution.

just like the followers of moses didnt want to contribute, but instead asked moses to contribute by fighting with his God on their behalf.

thanfully this case is clear from all angles. Including the contributary nature of salawat dua

But if you read the narrations about the salawat they pretty much all indicate that they are for our benefit rather then the Prophet's. 

Unless you know of any narrations that indicate how he benefits from us asking Allah to send blessings on him ? 

Allah already sends blessings on him,  so for us to it (for that reason) seems inconciquencial.

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10 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

But if you read the narrations about the salawat they pretty much all indicate that they are for our benefit rather then the Prophet's. 

Unless you know of any narrations that indicate how he benefits from us asking Allah to send blessings on him ? 

@313 Seeker

How many salwats have you recited with the intention of helping the Prophet or Ahlul Bayt (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them)?

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مَن ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِنْدَهُ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلاَ يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلاَّ بِمَا شَاء

What do you think about the "illa" in above verse? When Allah has provided the exceptions, who are you to dictate us your absurd opinions?

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1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

But if you read the narrations about the salawat they pretty much all indicate that they are for our benefit rather then the Prophet's. 

Unless you know of any narrations that indicate how he benefits from us asking Allah to send blessings on him ? 

Allah already sends blessings on him,  so for us to it (for that reason) seems inconciquencial.

one does not need a narration to explain something that speaks for itself. salawat is a dua to ask Allah to bring peace and blessings upon ahlulbayt.

i doubt that you will argue that Allah's peace and blessings do help.

Maybe if we pray for it, Allah will send more peace and blessings. If two people pray for someone it is better than one. 

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1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

Don't try to put fingers in my mouth for taking out the words you want me to say.

You continue to think that way, think & think & think. What the verse 5:55 means, does Allah declaring Prophet & Imam Ali as His partner(na'uzobillah) or are they His AUTHORIZED representatives. Similarly, He only possess the knowledge of unseen, but when He wills to disclose that to His chosen ones, Is there anyone who can stop Him?

It seems to me that I am debating with Ibn-e-Taymiyyah!
 

Again this kind of speech and your direct pointless alluding of us being munafiqeen without it having anything to do with the topic at hand shows me that i should have kept on ignoring you. It's my fault for taking you serious again. People like you always resort to rudeness and insults. nothing changed. 

and actually your rude manners show how wrong you are, and how far away you are from the manners of ahlulbayt. Therefore, your thinking is far away too. no wonder!  back on my ignore list for anybody who is rude!

 

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H 8236, Ch. 16, h 1 [Al Kafi, V5]
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr from Mu‘awiyah ibn ‘Ammar who has said the following:
“Abu ‘Abd Allah,  ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that our slogan on the day Badr was, ‘O victory of Allah,come close! come close!’
 The slogan of Muslims on the day of ‘Uhud was, ‘O victory of Allah, come close!’
On the day of banu al-Nadir it was, ‘O Holy Spirit, bring comfort!’
On the day of banu Qaynaqa‘ it was, ‘O our Lord, no one is able to defeat You!’
On the day of Taef it was, ‘O Ridwan! (name of a certain angel)’
 Our slogan on the day of Hunayn was, ‘O banu ‘Abd Allah! O banu ‘Abd Allah!’
On the day of al-Ahzab it was, ‘Ha Mim, They cannot see!’
On the day of banu Quraydah it was, ‘O Peace Giver, make them surrender!’
On the day of al-Muraysi‘ which is also called the day of banu al-Mustliq it was, ‘Is the matter not in the hands of Allah!’
On the day of al-Hudaybiyah it was, ‘May Allah condemn the unjust!’
On the day of al-Khaybar, also called the day of al-Qamus it was, ‘O Ali, come upon them from on high!’
On the day of victory it was, ‘We are the servants of Allah, indeed, indeed!’
On the day of Tabuk it was, ‘O the One! O self-sufficient!’
On the day of banu al-Maluh it was, ‘Higher, higher!’
 On the day of Siffin it was, ‘O Assistance of Allah!’
The slogan of al- Husayn,  ‘Alayhi al-Salam , was, ‘O Muhammad!’ Our slogan is, ‘O Muhammad!’

Graded Hasan, by Alama Majlisi [Mirat al uqul]

Note: This hadith quoted by @QuranandAhlulbayt on a different thread. I have just copied & pasted it, assuming that the brother momin has quoted the references with responsibility.

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Basic info For people of understanding/Insight----

Ayatullah Khomeni Speaking on Amir al-Muminin(Commander of the Faithful), Imam al-Muttaqeen(Leader of the Pious), Hujjah of Allah(awj)(Proof of Allah(awj), Mawla Ali ibn Abi Talib(as).

*****

 

*****

 

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On 4/14/2017 at 10:55 AM, Engineer73 said:

What are the basic criteria for a "witness"?

Every Muslim's shahadah is for testifying the message of Prophet, and no one knows that his shahadah is acceptable by God or worthy enough that Allah is presenting it before the disbelievers.

Lets see the result & worth of shahadah of people:

Surah Al-Munafiqoon, Verse 1:

إِذَا جَاءَكَ الْمُنَافِقُونَ قَالُوا نَشْهَدُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُهُ وَاللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لَكَاذِبُونَ

When the hypocrites come to you, they say: We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's Apostle; and Allah knows that you are most surely His Apostle, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Hujraat, Verse 14:

قَالَتِ الْأَعْرَابُ آمَنَّا قُل لَّمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَٰكِن قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الْإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ وَإِن تُطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لَا يَلِتْكُم مِّنْ أَعْمَالِكُمْ شَيْئًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

The dwellers of the desert say: We believe. Say: You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Apostle, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(English - Shakir)

What happen now?

You should remember that the one witness, other than Allah mentioned in 13:43 is also the witness of Oneness of Allah. 

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 18:

شَهِدَ اللَّهُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ وَأُولُو الْعِلْمِ قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

Allah bears witness that there is no god but He, and (so do) the angels and those possessed of knowledge, maintaining His creation with justice; there is no god but He, the Mighty, the Wise.

(English - Shakir)

I dont know why people  try their best to conceal the facts. Their effort always is to hide the fazeelah of Ahlul Bayt (a.s)

They go too far in their hate that they start claiming that no one possess the complete knowledge of book, hence rejecting the verses of Quran!

 

Everyone who has knowledge or information can be a witness.

You are implying here that every muslim today is a hypocrite and can not be a witness to kuffar on the fact that Prophet saw is the true messenger of Allah. But truth is that many non muslims are becoming muslims even today due to knowledge and preaching of muslims all over the world.

13:43 mainly refers to jews and christians with regards to taveel e khas. i.e their old scriptures are the witness. The witness which is verifiable till the day of qiyamah.This is not any sort of insult to ahlebait. Everything in Quran is not about ahlebait. Try to understand Quran in its true sense.

 

On 4/14/2017 at 5:39 PM, Engineer73 said:

I felt the need to explain my following point further.

 

You must note the phrase قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ  here. This means that the personalities mentioned in this verse are already "Qaim" with JUSTICE. Means they don't tend to produce within themselves the quality of justice, they do not follow desires & therefore cannot deviate. This is very important point. Now see  verse 4:135:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُونُواْ قَوَّامِينَ بِالْقِسْطِ شُهَدَاء لِلّهِ وَلَوْ عَلَى أَنفُسِكُمْ أَوِ الْوَالِدَيْنِ وَالأَقْرَبِينَ إِن يَكُنْ غَنِيًّا أَوْ فَقَيرًا فَاللّهُ أَوْلَى بِهِمَا فَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ الْهَوَى أَن تَعْدِلُواْ وَإِن تَلْوُواْ أَوْ تُعْرِضُواْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرًا

(O you who believe! Be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness of Allah's sake, though it may be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives; if he be rich or poor , Allah is nearer to them both in compassion; therefore do not follow (your) desires, lest you deviate; and if you swerve or turn aside, then surely Allah is aware of what you do.)

 So tell me do you think Allah will produce such a witness before kuffar (in 13:43) who is not worth of called as قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ
and will produce the whole bunch of people of the book who yet to produce justice (Qist) within themselves? And who can also follow their desires & get deviated from the right path.

There is much I can discuss here, but I think pointing towards important point is sufficient. 

@Sindbad05, @Mansur Bakhtiari, @DigitalUmmah, @shiaman14, @Lover of Ahlulbait (ams),
 

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا ۚ قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِنْدَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ

The unbelievers say: "You are no Rasool." Say: "Allah is all-sufficient witness between me and you, and so are those who have knowledge of the Book."

Ahlebait as witness in 13:43 does not make any sense with regards to kuffar of both past and present. What you think kuffar who were/are not even accepting Prophet saw as messenger of Allah, will accept the testimony of his cousin and family on his messengership.

In 13:43 Allah has shown us that to prove to kuffar (majority of them are jews and christians today) that Prophet saw is the true messenger to Allah, you also need to present knowledge from His previous revelations i.e Taurat and Injeel. To kuffar you will present something as witness whom they trust. Just like Allah did in 13:43.

Here is one such example of Taurat.

[Deuteronomy 18:18] I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

13:43 says Allah is the witness, meaning His word Quran. And all those who have knowledge of the book. Meaning Allah's previous revelations. Both these witnessess are available everywhere in the world to verify and confirm the messengership of Prophet saw. 

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19 hours ago, Engineer73 said:

It has been mentioned several times that we only pray from Allah (s.w.t). We don't recognize Imam Ali (a.s) as Wajib-ul-Wujud thing. We believe that Allah is Ahad, Allah is Samad, He begets not, nor is He begotten and none is like Him.  

As for Imam Ali (a.s), we know his father, grandfather, his mother, his sons, his wife etc.  So it should be clear to all of you that in our point of view, Imam Ali is not Allah.

Yes. We all know that Imam Ali is not Allah. But there are certain attributes which are only specific to Allah. And considering or applying any of them to anyone else besides Allah is like you have considered such person or thing a god.

For e.g

[Naml 62] “Or Who answers the distressed one when he calls on Him and removes the distress, and makes you successors in the earth. Is there any god with Allah? Little it is that you heed!”

Here Allah is asking a pretty simple question that "Is there any god with Allah who also answers the call of a distressed one when he calls or invoke on him".

Those who are invoking/calling Ali or any other Imam like YA ALI MADAD or YA MAHDI ADRIKNI etc are actually telling Allah that "yes there a god with You, whom we call upon and he answer our supplication/invocation".

Invoking anyone in the form of dua/supplication besides Allah is shirk. Like YA ALI MADAD, YA FATIMA AGHISNI, YA MAHDI ADRIKNI etc etc. And this is not tawassul at all.

Tawassul or Wasila will be when we invoke or call on only Allah and present to Allah a form a tawassul like YA Allah MADAD OR ADRIKNI BY VIRTUE OF YOUR SINCERE SERVANT ALI, FATIMA etc.


 

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Tasawuff and tarqiya is not a part of Islam. In Islam wayfarying is a personal and individual effort and that is why chisti Sufi is haram for shias to follow and hence kufar.  Zikr should be done individually only.

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@Engineer73 - brother I want to commend you on the work you are doing on this thread. Who would have thought that we would be discussing the wilayah of Hz Ameer-al-Momineen Ali bin Abu Talib with shias.

I am not sure if I am more shocked by what I am reading on this thread or the fact that you are almost alone in defending the wilayah of Imam Ali (as) with a few comments from me. I apologize to you for not being available more but inshallah I will try to spend more time on this thread.

I do have a quick question for @313 Seeker. Is your kalima:

la ilaha illa-llah
muḥammadur-rasūlu-llāh
ali un waliullah

or just:

la ilaha illa-llah
muḥammadur-rasūlu-llāh

Yes, I know ali un waliullah is optional in adhanand aqamah.

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On 4/15/2017 at 6:49 AM, Ali_Hussain said:

I think that for the people that you are discussing this with, this is an ok argument, as it befits their level of logic.

I dont quite get what you mean by "people you are discussing with".

Do you mean shia?

On 4/15/2017 at 6:49 AM, Ali_Hussain said:

However, rationally, it isn't a good argument, because asking Allah to send blessing on them (peace be upon them) isn't asking Him to help them, they are two separate things.

So what you are saying is that @313 Seeker can use faulty logic and heresy because he is discussing with shias but otherwise he is wrong. Am I reading this correctly?

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This information has been provided to non Shia's. (Shia's know this already). So, why would there be any question as to why, we do what we do is very concerning. Our Mothers have done a great job in transferring the love of Mawla Ali(as). We do say, Ya Ali(as), Ya Ali Ya Wali, and now that we are adults we have found this to be true. So, we testify to it. 

What seems to be the issue here?  Can someone articulate their real concern(s), and why would this be their business to worry about?

*****

1] Muslim Shahada (Muslim-Testament of Faith)

Ash-hado an la ilaha illAllah   (I bear witness that there is no God But Allah)

Wahdahoo la shareeka lah     (The one, Who has no Partner)

Wa ash-hado anna Muhammadun abdohoo wa Rasoolullah…..(and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Slave and Messenger.

Ash-hado an Aliyun Waleeullah, Wasi-o-Rasoolilah (I bear witness that Ali is the Wali of Allah, rightful executor of the Will of the Prophet)


 

2] Adhan[ Call to Prayer], from Muslim Mosques, repeat the Three testimony of Faith-Five times a Day for All to hear.

 

Allahu Akbar... ... ...... . (Allah is great)

Ash hadu an la ilaha illal lah . . . . . . . . . . (I testify that there is no deity but Allah)

Ash hadu anna Muhammadan Rasu lul lah . . . . . . . : . . (I testify that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger)

Ash hadu anna Amirul Muminina'Aliyyan Waliyyullah ……..(i.e. I testify that the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali (Peace be on him) is the vicegerent of Allah)

*****

Maybe Shia's need some basic education, The life of Imam Ali: The esoteric dimension and reality - Sayed Ammar Nakshwani

 

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6 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

@Engineer73 - brother I want to commend you on the work you are doing on this thread. Who would have thought that we would be discussing the wilayah of Hz Ameer-al-Momineen Ali bin Abu Talib with shias.

I am not sure if I am more shocked by what I am reading on this thread or the fact that you are almost alone in defending the wilayah of Imam Ali (as) with a few comments from me. I apologize to you for not being available more but inshallah I will try to spend more time on this thread.

I do have a quick question for @313 Seeker. Is your kalima:

la ilaha illa-llah
muḥammadur-rasūlu-llāh
ali un waliullah

or just:

la ilaha illa-llah
muḥammadur-rasūlu-llāh

Yes, I know ali un waliullah is optional in adhanand aqamah.

Aliyun Waliullah is truth but it does not mean that someone start doing innovations like adding this phrase to adhan and iqamah (its not optional but an innovation, which became first permissible during the safavid era). And start calling upon Imam Ali directly without mentioning Allah at all. All the proofs given by @Engineer73 in support of this practice are based on dhann (conjecture). Beliefs should be based only on qatiy (definitive) proofs.

Calling upon anyone directly besides Allah for help etc in the form of dua/prayer is shirk. Because dua is a form of ibadah and ibadah is only for Allah.

In the book Uddat ud Daee of Allama Ibn Fahd al Hilli, regarding the verse (40:60) “And your Lord says: Call upon Me, I will answer you; surely those who are too proud for My worship shall soon enter hell abased.”

Hadith 51: Imam Baqir (as) said:

God says: “those who are too proud for my worship will enter hell abased”, worship here means “Dua” which is the best form of worship.

Imam Sadiq (as) said in Hadith 53

Imam (as) says: “Dua is the same worship that has been mentioned in the Quranic verse “those who are too proud for my worship will enter hell abased”, call upon God and do not say the die is cast (i.e do not say that my destiny has been fixed so supplication is of no use).”

In the same book, in Hadith 342, it is mentioned.

If one of you wishes to be such that whenever he desires something from God, He will fulfill, he should stop setting his hope on people and instead sets his hope only in God. When God finds such a state in someone’s heart, He will fulfill whatever he desires.

 

YA ALI MADAD is calling upon Ali, not Allah.

So invoke Allah, [being] sincere to Him in religion, although the disbelievers dislike it. [40:14]

And when they board a ship, they supplicate Allah, sincere to Him in religion. But when He delivers them to the land, at once they associate others with Him. [29:65]

 

Quote

 

In Nahjul Balagha, Letter 31 “Advice to one of his sons after returning from the Battle of Siffin” in one place Imam Ali (as) says

وَأَلْجِئْ نَفْسَكَ فِي أُمُورِكَ كُلِّهَا إِلَى إِلهِكَ، فَإِنَّكَ تُلْجِئُهَا إِلَى كَهْف حَرِيز، وَمَانِع عَزِيز. وَأَخْلِصْ فِي الْمَسْأَلَةِ لِرَبِّكَ، فَإِنَّ بِيَدِهِ الْعَطَاءَ وَالْحِرْمَانَ

In all affairs resign yourself to Allah, because you will thus be resigning yourself to a secure shelter and a strong protector. You should ask only from your Lord because in His hand is all the giving and depriving.

In another place in the same letter Imam Ali (as) says

وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ الَّذِي بِيَدِهِ خَزَائِنُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالاْرْضِ قَدْ أَذِنَ لَكَ فِي الدُّعَاءِ، وَتَكَفَّلَ لَكَ بِالاْجَابَةِ، وَأَمَرَكَ أَنْ تَسْأَلَهُ لِيُعْطِيَكَ، وَتَسْتَرْحِمَهُ لِيَرْحَمَكَ، وَلَمْ يَجْعَلْ بَيْنَكَ وَبَيْنَهُ مَنْ يَحْجُبُكَ عَنْهُ، وَلَمْ يُلْجِئْكَ إِلَى مَنْ يَشْفَعُ لَكَ إِلَيْهِ، وَلَمْ يَمْنَعْكَ إِنْ أَسَأْتَ مِنَ التَّوْبَةِ

Know that He Who owns the treasuries of the heavens and of the earth has permitted you to pray to Him and has promised you acceptance of the prayer. He has commanded you to beg from Him in order that He may give you and to seek His mercy in order that He may have mercy on you. He has not placed any thing between you and Him that may veil Him from you. He has not required you to get a mediator for you to Him, and if you err, He has not prevented you from repentance.

Further he says

وَفَتَحَ لَكَ بَابَ الْمَتَابِ، وَبَابَ الاْسْتِعْتَابِ; فَإِذَا نَادَيْتَهُ سَمِعَ نَدَاءكَ، وَإِذَا نَاجَيْتَهُ عَلِمَ نَجْوَاكَ، فَأَفْضَيْتَ إِلَيْهِ بِحَاجَتِكَ، وَأَبْثَثْتَهُ ذَاتَ نَفْسِكَ، وَشَكَوْتَ إِلَيْهِ هُمُومَكَ، وَاسْتَكْشَفْتَهُ كُرُوبَكَ، وَاسْتَعَنْتَهُ عَلَى أُمُورِكَ، وَسَأَلْتَهُ مِنْ خَزَائِنِ رَحْمَتِهِ مَا لاَ يَقْدِرُ عَلَى إِعْطَائِهِ غَيْرُهُ، مِنْ زِيَادَةِ الاْعْمَارِ، وَصِحَّةِ الاْبْدَانِ، وَسَعَةِ الاْرْزَاقِ. ثُمَّ جَعَلَ فِي يَدَيْكَ مَفَاتِيحَ خَزَائِنِهِ بِمَا أَذِنَ لَكَ فِيهِ مِنْ مَسْأَلَتِهِ،

He has opened for you the door of repentance. Therefore, whenever you call Him He hears your call, and whenever you whisper to Him He knows the whisper. You place before Him your needs, unveil yourself before Him, complain to Him of your worries, beseech Him to remove your troubles, seek His help in your affairs and ask from the treasuries of His mercy that which no one else has power to give, namely length of life, health of body and increase in sustenance. Then He has placed the keys of His treasuries in your hands in the sense that He has shown you the way to ask Him.

 

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Discussing Ya Ali(as)  Madad/adkrani/Help is a secondary issue.


First tell me about your understanding of what is the meaning and scope of Wali/Mawla? Issue is with incorrect understanding of the basic concept(s). If the basic concept is clear, there will be no question of why we say Ya Ali(as) Madad/Adkrani/Help.

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9 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

 

2] Adhan[ Call to Prayer], from Muslim Mosques, repeat the Three testimony of Faith-Five times a Day for All to hear.

 

Allahu Akbar... ... ...... . (Allah is great)

Ash hadu an la ilaha illal lah . . . . . . . . . . (I testify that there is no deity but Allah)

Ash hadu anna Muhammadan Rasu lul lah . . . . . . . : . . (I testify that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger)

Ash hadu anna Amirul Muminina'Aliyyan Waliyyullah ……..(i.e. I testify that the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali (Peace be on him) is the vicegerent of Allah)

*****

Maybe Shia's need some basic education, The life of Imam Ali: The esoteric dimension and reality - Sayed Ammar Nakshwani

 

 

Just to be clear here ya akhi,

1. Ali ibn abi talib a.s never recited this as part of the adhan - and there are no reliable traditions indicating this.

2. None of our aimmah asws recited this as part of their adhan, nor even recommended reciting it as part of the adhan.

3. If it were to be 'better' to add it into the adhan without the intention it is in the adhan, our aimmah asws would know better than us, and would have done so or commanded us to do so.

4. Adding of the third shahadah into the adhan came and originated from the ghulat and we adopted it cuturally later on [around the Safavid era where many innovations crept into shia islam] and the rest as they say, is history.

5. If i am a muqassir/batri for not reciting this as part of the adhan, what does that make our own Imams asws who never recommended us to do so?

6. I have come to the view it is dishonest to add something to the adhan every single time and then claim it is not part of the adhan.

 

There is no doubt Ali[as] is the Wali of Allah [azwj] but i am not going to outsmart Allah [azwj] nor his slave Ali [as] by innovating something into the religion he himself did not recommend me to do.

Edited by QuranandAhlulbayt

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Could anyone please find me any reliable narration in our corpus of ahadith, where an individual goes up to our aimmah asws and asks them as to how to seek help from Allah azwj, and they are told instead, to seek help directly from the Imam asws?

Many of these practises emerged from the sufi/ghulat/malang/nusayri groups and were then adopted into cultural shia islam. Like the case of Tatbir, which is a prime example as to how something so obviously wrong can become common place in some locations.

The ahadith are clear, in times of danger you first shout 'Ya Rab!'. Not Ya Muhammed, not Ya Ali, the narrations are explicit, 'Ya Rab!'.

I'm not going to try outsmarting the Aimmah asws. If you adopt a course other than what the Imams asws have clearly stated and directed you to do in ahadith, that is your choice.

As for saying 'Ya Muhammed/Ali' as part of a larger dua, i have no issues with it given the dua explicitly places Ya Muhammed in context [As we have some dua's].

Edited by QuranandAhlulbayt

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Claim: We can not call on Allah azwj directly, as there is a big barrier between he and us, but Ali a.s has no such barrier and listens to the supplication of the supplicant when he supplicates to him [Ironically, Ali a.s is so open to hearing our plea's and dua's, but Allah azwj isn't]

Response[from our aimmah asws]:

Chapter Forty Four

One’s Saying: “O Lord, O Lord”

H 3255, CH 44, h 1

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Ayyub ibn al-Hurr brother of ‘Udaym from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following:

“Whoever says ten times, ‘O Lord.’ It will be said to him, “Your call for help is well heard and noted. What kind of help do you need?’”

H 3256, CH 44, h 2

Ahmad ibn Muhammad and Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father all have narrated from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Muhammad ibn Humran who has said the following:

“When Isma’il son of abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, became ill, abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, told him to say, ‘Ten times; O Lord.’ Whoever says this will be called, ‘Your call is heard and well noticed, ask what kind of help do you need?’”

H 3257, CH 44, h 3

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Mu'awiyah from abu Basir from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following:

“Whoever says, ‘O Lord, O Allah, for one full breath, it is said to him, “Your call is heard and well noticed, ask what kind of help do you need?’”

 

Who is the best person to plead and make a dua for help to according to Muhammed saw] ?

The Messenger of Allah [saw] would say, “Yes, indeed, You are the best Who answers, the best to be called for help, and the best to plead with, I plead before You through the light of Your face, through Your majesty, Your power, Your might, I plead before You through Your kingdom, through Your formidable coats of arm and Your community, the members of Your community all of them, through Muhammad [saw] and the successors after Muhammad [asws] to grant al-Salat (favors) upon Muhammad and his family [asws] and provide me help in such and such matters.” (One should mention one’s wishes).’”

[SAHEEH [Mirat al Uqul] - AL KAFI]

 

What some people are claiming verses what the Messenger of Allah [saw] is claiming:

Claim: You can't plead to Allah directly as you are too sinful, instead, plead to Ali a.s [and the imams asws/prophet] when you want help as it has a higher chance of acceptance.

Response: Allah is the best one to be called for help, and the best one we should plead with.

 

These are just a few narrations - in Kitab Al Kafi, book of Dua, you find sufficient material to absolutely refute baseless claims on what we should cry out when in danger, who is best for us to plead help to, if we are too sinful to ask Allah [azwj] directly. Let us follow truth, instead of what we found our fathers upon. Remember, even the ulema of the ahlus-sunnah are all in grave error on more serious issues, because they are all product of the institution they obtained their learning from. For Aqai'd issues , you can't peform Taqlid. The hawzah system churns out masters of fiqh and jurisprudence, which is its' aim, and even they have Aqai'd differences.

 

As you can see in the dua of Muhammed [saw] he taught us the proper was of seeking the intercession of his ahlulbayt asws and ofcourse himself. Many shia's have never come across this dua, nor even read Kitab Al Kafi, nor even own a copy of it. I can't even find it in my mosque.

Edited by QuranandAhlulbayt

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H 3052, CH 1, h 6

Abu Ali al-Ash’ari has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Jabbar from ibn abu Najran from Sayf al-Tammar who has said the following:

“I heard abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, saying, ‘You must plead before Allah for help; you cannot seek nearness to Allah by any means better than pleading before Him for help. Do not leave your small needs without pleading before Allah for help, just because they are small; both small and large needs are in the hands of One and the same One.’”

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3 hours ago, QuranandAhlulbayt said:

H 3052, CH 1, h 6

Abu Ali al-Ash’ari has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Jabbar from ibn abu Najran from Sayf al-Tammar who has said the following:

“I heard abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, saying, ‘You must plead before Allah for help; you cannot seek nearness to Allah by any means better than pleading before Him for help. Do not leave your small needs without pleading before Allah for help, just because they are small; both small and large needs are in the hands of One and the same One.’”

I would like to present before you a portion of verse of Qur'an:

Surah Al-Anfal, Verse 72:

 وَإِنِ اسْتَنصَرُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ فَعَلَيْكُمُ النَّصْرُ إِلَّا عَلَىٰ قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُم مِّيثَاقٌ وَاللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ

and if they seek aid from you in the matter of religion, aid is incumbent on you except against a people between whom and you there is a treaty, and Allah sees what you do.

(English - Shakir)

It is incumbent upon the Vali to help. The exception is also mentioned here in this verse.

What do you brothers think about this verse?

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