Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Husayni

Why do us Shia say " Ya Ali Maddad! "

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

55 minutes ago, YAli said:

[Say: I do not control any benefit or harm for my own soul except as Allah please; and had I known the unseen I would have had much of good and no evil would have touched me; I am nothing but a warner and the giver of good news to a people who believe. 7:188]

there are lots of examples of the prophet (S) demonstrating his knowledge of the unseen. 

also, tafsir states:

Quote

The Holy Prophet had to pronounce these words, lest his followers may deify him as the followers of Isa made him god or son of God. It should be remembered that he was the last prophet of Allah, so he could not leave behind the slightest possibility of this nature.

 

55 minutes ago, YAli said:

[Say: I do not say to you, I have with me the treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel; I do not follow aught save that which is revealed to me. Say: Are the blind and the seeing one alike? Do you not then reflect? 6:50]

this verse is talking about false soothsayers, the prophet is saying he is not false like them. tafsir states:

Quote

This verse implies that the Holy Prophet was not like deceitful soothsayers, who pretend to reveal hidden treasures, or see into the future, or claim to be the masters who control everything. In a wider sense the Holy Prophet dealt out great treasures of truth, given to him by Allah; he had received Allah's inspiration to know all about everything, and always made clear to the people that his power, his wisdom and his glory reached the highest position by Allah's permission. Outwardly to the common man he was a "plain preacher", who presented the truth in its pristine purity, without any misleading ambiguity about his relationship with Allah, so that his unwary followers might not idolize him as the Christians worshipped Isa.

 

55 minutes ago, YAli said:

[Say: I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one Allah, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord. 18:110]

not sure why you posted this verse

55 minutes ago, YAli said:

[On the day when Allah will assemble the apostles, then say: What answer were you given? They shall say: We have no knowledge, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. 5:109]

tafsir states this:

Quote

La ilma lana does not mean "We do not know anything", but it means "the knowledge we have is not ours, it is Yours, gifted to us by You, and that too is limited. You are the infinite, omniscient ".

In verse 32 of al Baqarah the angels also say: "Glory be to You! We have no knowledge except what You have taught us; verily, You are the knowing, the wise".

According to Nisa: 41 and Nahl: 84 and 89 every prophet will be called as a witness over his followers and the Holy Prophet will be a witness over all the prophets. The deeds of the people are witnessed by Allah, the Holy Prophet and "those who believe" (the Ahl ul Bayt).

 

55 minutes ago, YAli said:

[Say: I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one Allah, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord. 18:110]

not sure why you posted this verse. 

55 minutes ago, YAli said:

1) If Imam Ali (as) has knowledge of everything, why did he choose to attend the mosque to pray where he was martyred? 

because it was allahs will for him to be shaheed, so Imam Ali (as) accepted his fate in submission to allahs will. 

55 minutes ago, YAli said:

2) The Quranic verse in red above shows the prophets will not even know about the inner state of people, but you believe the imams can see our intention at free will? 

see my previous point

55 minutes ago, YAli said:

3) The Quran speaks in many other places that the Prophet pbuh did not even know of the hypocrites among his companions. How do you explain this?

similar to the previous point - plus the prophet (S) clearly knew who the hypocrites were during his life. he repeatedly made prophecies about hypocrisy after his passing. 

tafsir of surah 63 gives an example of the prophet (s) both knowing of the hypocrites, and demonstrating his knowledge of the unseen:

Quote

While returning from the battle against the Jews of Bani Mustaliq in which their leader, Harith bin Abi Zarar, was killed; a servant of Umar clashed with one of the ansar and occasioned a quarrel between the ansar and the muhajirin. Abdullah bin Obay, siding with the ansar taunted the mahajirin as people who would, with their growing power, subjugate the ansar if necessary steps were not taken to check their belligerent behaviour. He also reproached the people of Madina for giving shelter and support to the Holy Prophet and the believers from Makka. To ridicule the Holy Prophet and his companions, he pointed out their poverty and declared them a burden on the people of Madina. Zayd bin Arqam reported his words to the Holy Prophet. Obaydullah, the son of Abdullah bin Obay, a staunch follower of the Holy Prophet, hearing all about this, came to the Holy Prophet and told him that if he had any thoughts of condemning his father to death, he would be the first man to obey his order. The Holy Prophet bade the young man not to think badly of his father and be kind to him.

Before reaching Madina the Holy Prophet had to break journey at Baqa because a violent wind began to blow. The Holy Prophet said that it was due to the death of a sincere servant of Allah, Rifa-a, in Madina. The hypocrites whispered among themselves that the Holy Prophet was bluffing; he could not know what had happened in Madina. In the meantime it was reported to him that his camel was missing. To show the hypocrites that the messenger of Allah knew what they could not, he asked them to go in the direction the wind was blowing and they would find his camel tied to a tree. They went and brought the camel back whom they found tied to a tree some distance away as told by the Holy Prophet; and when they entered Madina they saw the coffin of Rifa-a being taken to Baqi for burial.

After a few days Abdullah bin Obay died. The hypocrites began to tease Zayd bin Arqam for reporting the blasphemies, Abdullah bin Obay uttered, to the Holy Prophet. Verse one clears the position of Zayd and believers like him and condemns the bogus faith of the hypocrites.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, YAli said:

@DigitalUmmah To add to what brother Hassan said, you implied that 'wilayah' means one becomes the 'master' of the universe. Here is what Wilayah means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilayah

It is more correct to understand it as a government, governor, leader. You have turned the leader into a demigod, or almost a God unto himself. All the Prophets of God that came warned strictly of this and despised this. 

tafsir of surah 5, verse 55:

Quote

In this verse the word wali has been used in the meaning of guardian or master or who holds authority superior to others. Please refer to the origin of the word wali in Sihah or Mukhtar al Sihah or any other good dictionary. The lexicographers have explained that he who manages the affairs of and exercises authority for another person is the wali of that person. This verse, therefore, means that those who manage the affairs of the people (mankind) are superior to all men, and certainly they are Allah, His messenger, the Holy Prophet, and Ali, who possesses all the qualifications enumerated in this verse. Allah has simultaneously confirmed His wilayah (superior authority), that of His prophet and his wali (Ali) in unbroken succession. Allah's wilayah is universal, so likewise, the wilayah of the Holy Prophet and his wali (Ali) must be so. It is not possible to assign to the word wali in this verse the meaning of a helper or a friend, etcetera, for help and friendship are not confined to these three only. All the faithful men and women, according to the holy book, are friends and helpers of one another. It is as obvious as can be that the word wali in this verse means, guardian, ruler, possessor of superior authority. It is in this sense that the word wali has been used by the Holy Prophet in the abovenoted tradition related by Al Tha-labi in his Tafsir al Kabir on the authority of Abu Dharr al Ghifari whom the Holy Prophet had given the title of siddiq (the truthful). There are other authentic traditions, given below, in which the word wali indicates its true meaning:

the key thing here is the word "only". this is how we know wali doesnt mean guardian - because we can have multiple guardians. the word cant mean friend - because we can have multiple friends. however the verse starts "ONLY" Allah, the prophet (s) and maula ali (as)

this tells us exactly what the context of this verse is. its not talking about a governer or guardian. its talking about a master. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, YAli said:

Please can you explain the following verse to me;

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 255:

 مَن ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِندَهُ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِهِ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلَّا بِمَا شَاءَ 

who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases,

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Jinn, Verse 26-27:

عَالِمُ الْغَيْبِ فَلَا يُظْهِرُ عَلَىٰ غَيْبِهِ أَحَدًا

إِلَّا مَنِ ارْتَضَىٰ مِن رَّسُولٍ

The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any, Except to him whom He chooses as an apostle;

 

You cannot understand those verses until you understand these two.

Edited by Engineer73

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

the prophet was ordered to say this:

Say: "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me: I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith." 7:188

People are asking for help from the most abused people on earth. Imagine if you and all your family was martyred and massacred and robbed. Then you find people calling you for help in your grave with passing an exam at a primary school for instance.

If the ahlulbayt had power over everything, they would not have allowed for the humiliation and major failures that haunt them in their graves now. That is the whole purpose of the expected qiyama and 313 .. to avenge this so they can rest in peace. That is the whole point of asking Allah to help them via salawat.

Then people ask them for help when writing posts on shiachat! 

[Mod Note: These are not mainstream Shia beliefs.] 

Brother, although we agree on many things, such as things like relying on Allah etc. the above bold & underlined sentence you wrote is something i don't agree with. I don't believe anything is "haunting" the Ahlul bayt a.s. in their graves. They are blessed and in peace, not haunted. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

If the ahlulbayt had power over everything, they would not have allowed for the humiliation and major failures that haunt them in their graves now. That is the whole purpose of the expected qiyama and 313 .. to avenge this so they can rest in peace. That is the whole point of asking Allah to help them via salawat.

this is an absolutely despicable belief. 

major failure? please tell me what the Imams (as) failed? if you are referring to karbala, may I remind you that the whole world to this day stands with hussain (as) and curses yazeed la'een. wouldnt you say that was a success, that the caliphate system was exposed, and will continue to be exposed till the day of judgement?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a challenge:

Note: Do not take this as an offense, it is rather a humble effort to let people think/ponder on the verses of Quran. 

Surah Al-Jinn, Verse 28:

لِّيَعْلَمَ أَن قَدْ أَبْلَغُوا رِسَالَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَأَحَاطَ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ وَأَحْصَىٰ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ عَدَدًا

So that He may know that they have truly delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses what is with them and He records the number of all things.

(English - Shakir)

Try your best to describe the tafseer of this verse. How Allah who is the knower of unseen, dont know (nauzobillah) that whether His appostles have truly delivered the message? The verse went on and again repeats the statement of His Supreme Knowledge. 

You need to go through many verses of Quran to bring the satisfactory answer.

Edited by Engineer73

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, YAli said:

Brother, although we agree on many things, such as things like relying on Allah etc. the above bold & underlined sentence you wrote is something i don't agree with. I don't believe anything is "haunting" the Ahlul bayt a.s. in their graves. They are blessed and in peace, not haunted. 

ok i understand that people can think that they are not eagerly waiting for justice to happen to them. 

my opinion is very simple, and it can be compared with the famous hadith that people in their graves will wish to be alive on earth during the time of the Mahdi. Let us say that the prophet is in his grave or in barzakh, and his daughter is being humiliated and killed on earth. Do you think that the prophet does not feel it or get in any way effected by such events? Do you think that the prophet can be happy when his daughter is sad? Wasn't it he who said that whoever upsets Fatima, upsets me?

I know that some people might think that Allah protects and pampers his beloved humans who are martyred or killed, but still. Don't you think that it is impossible for Fatimah to really be at peace while her sons are being killed? Or do you think that Hussain can be happy and jolly in his grave, when the people who killed him and called themselves amir al mumineen while doing so, are the ones running the show today?

It would be an interesting discussion to have, and instead of derailing this thread again, i will make a new thread about this. Please contribute to this there, and let's get to the bottom of this. Many thanks.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Engineer73 said:

:) Well, This would means that everyone (from people of the book) including you, are also a witness. Tell me where & when Allah has given Nabuwah to His prophet? Why not every Christian & Jew testify that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Prophet of Allah (s.w.t). But how is that the books itself says about majority of Christians, Jews & Muslims that "aktharum faseqoon".

3:110) Now if the followers of earlier revelation had attained to [this kind of] faith, it would have been for their own good; [but only few] among them are believers, while most of them are iniquitous (fasiqoon)|

 

 

15 hours ago, Engineer73 said:

:) here are the arabic text of your referred verses, dare telling me where it is mentioned that christians or jews possess the knowledge of the book , which revealed on Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Let aside the fact that while this verse (13:43) came out from the holy mouth of Prophet, much of its verses never presented before those people.

Surah Ar-Rad, Verse 36:

وَالَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ الْكِتَابَ يَفْرَحُونَ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمِنَ الْأَحْزَابِ مَن يُنكِرُ بَعْضَهُ قُلْ إِنَّمَا أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أَعْبُدَ اللَّهَ وَلَا أُشْرِكَ بِهِ إِلَيْهِ أَدْعُو وَإِلَيْهِ مَآبِ

And those to whom We have given the Book rejoice in that which has been revealed to you, and of the confederates are some who deny a part of it. Say: I am only commanded that I should serve Allah and not associate anything with Him, to Him do I invite (you) and to Him is my return.

(English - Shakir)

To give book is other thing, having the knowledge of book is other. :) 

Do you know any single person from them who claimed that he possess the complete knowledge of book? 

Any historical reference? 

 

Yes. Every Muslim is also a witness. Testifying to the world that Prophet Muhammad saw is the true and final messenger of Allah. Jews and Christians also knows this but they hide the truth just like their ancestors did during the time of Prophet saw.

Having knowledge and accepting/believing in it is a different thing.

[2:146] Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it].

[13:43] And those who have disbelieved say, "You are not a messenger." Say, [O Muhammad], "Sufficient is Allah as Witness between me and you, and [the witness of] whoever has knowledge of the Scripture."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Brother you say that Allah AWJ make Jews and CHristians as witnesses along Allah AWJ?  While they came to ask Prophet to ask the interpretations of their verses? It is failed statement bro. When Jews came to Prophet and prophet told them that Camel is not haram which your hold haram. So, you mean that God consider those as the holders of knowledge of book while they learnt nothing but wrongs.

sorry brother. It was Imam Ali a.s and every Imam after him.

[13:43] And those who have disbelieved say, "You are not a messenger." Say, [O Muhammad], "Sufficient is Allah as Witness between me and you, and [the witness of] whoever has knowledge of the Scripture."

Witness in the sense that the Prophet Muhammad saw is the true messenger of Allah. Read the verse carefully.

This concept is also mentioned in some other verses of Quran, like in Baqrah 146.

[2:146] Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it].

In taveel e amm this also include every muslim as a witness who testify that Prophet Muhammad saw is the true and final messenger of Allah.

The ayah do not say that the witness is only one who has complete knowledge of book. It just says knowledge of book. Be it 1% or 10% etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

welcome my dear friend! may Allah reward you for this jihad.

There is a misconception concerning the word "book" or "kitab" in the quran. There are many, many mentions of this word in different contexts. The book that contains all information about everything, including every leaf that falls, and all the unseen is referred to as the mother book, and it is described to be with Allah ..

 

Allah eliminates what He wills or confirms, and with Him is the Mother of the Book. 13:39

And indeed it is, in the Mother of the Book with Us, exalted and full of wisdom. 43:4

 

from what I understand, this book is described for instance in the above 2 verses. 

Ameen. May Allah also reward you for your efforts.

You are right brother.

But book mentioned in 13:43 is not umm ul kitab, whose knower and witness is only Allah. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

[13:43] And those who have disbelieved say, "You are not a messenger." Say, [O Muhammad], "Sufficient is Allah as Witness between me and you, and [the witness of] whoever has knowledge of the Scripture."

Witness in the sense that the Prophet Muhammad saw is the true messenger of Allah. Read the verse carefully.

This concept is also mentioned in some other verses of Quran, like in Baqrah 146.

[2:146] Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it].

In taveel e amm this also include every muslim as a witness who testify that Prophet Muhammad saw is the true and final messenger of Allah.

The ayah do not say that the witness is only one who has complete knowledge of book. It just says knowledge of book. Be it 1% or 10% etc.

The thing to understand here is that it is very clear what Allah mentions here. Allah AWJ says that signs are very clear in the scriptures and it has been mentioned in the scriptures that who is last Prophet but it never says that they have scriptures but also possess whole knowledge of scriptures. right ? But in the previous verse which implies to Imam Ali a.s, Allah AWJ says that Allah is your witness and that is witness who has knowledge of the book. So, there is knowledge of the book and here is given the scripture. Secondly, you are given Quran, but you do not possess whole knowledge of Quran, because many of the things in Quran are such that there are various interpretations for it and no Alim says that he is absolutely right and he cannot be wronged. But every Alim and even Sahaba says that no one excelled in Islamic and Quranic science except Imam Ali a.s and Ahle bait. That is why Imam Abu Hanifah learnt from Imam Muhammad al Baqir and Imam Jafir al Sadiq. Now, if you prefer Jews and Christians just because we place Imam Ali a.s above Sahaba because of Sahaba's quote themselves then it is not our fault bro. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

The thing to understand here is that it is very clear what Allah mentions here. Allah AWJ says that signs are very clear in the scriptures and it has been mentioned in the scriptures that who is last Prophet but it never says that they have scriptures but also possess whole knowledge of scriptures. right ? But in the previous verse which implies to Imam Ali a.s, Allah AWJ says that Allah is your witness and that is witness who has knowledge of the book. So, there is knowledge of the book and here is given the scripture. Secondly, you are given Quran, but you do not possess whole knowledge of Quran, because many of the things in Quran are such that there are various interpretations for it and no Alim says that he is absolutely right and he cannot be wronged. But every Alim and even Sahaba says that no one excelled in Islamic and Quranic science except Imam Ali a.s and Ahle bait. That is why Imam Abu Hanifah learnt from Imam Muhammad al Baqir and Imam Jafir al Sadiq. Now, if you prefer Jews and Christians just because we place Imam Ali a.s above Sahaba because of Sahaba's quote themselves then it is not our fault bro. 

Its not about having whole knowledge of book. Verse says they know him meaning they have knowledge. Its very clear.

[2:146] Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it].

You are right no muslim possess full knowledge of Quran. Not even sahabah and alhebait had full knowledge. But they all had/have this basic knowledge that Prophet saw is the true messenger of Allah. In this regard all true muslims are also witnessess. Which is the main subject of 13:43. It says knowledge not full and complete knowledge.

In Taveel e Khas it refers to jews and christians and in Taveel e aam it refers to all muslims as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

no muslim possess full knowledge of Quran. Not even sahabah and alhebait had full knowledge. 

^ This is not a Shia belief. Ahlul Bayt AS are protectors of the Holy Qur'an and they have full knowledge of it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Yes. Every Muslim is also a witness. Testifying to the world that Prophet Muhammad saw is the true and final messenger of Allah. Jews and Christians also knows this but they hide the truth just like their ancestors did during the time of Prophet saw.

Having knowledge and accepting/believing in it is a different thing.

What are the basic criteria for a "witness"?

Every Muslim's shahadah is for testifying the message of Prophet, and no one knows that his shahadah is acceptable by God or worthy enough that Allah is presenting it before the disbelievers.

Lets see the result & worth of shahadah of people:

Surah Al-Munafiqoon, Verse 1:

إِذَا جَاءَكَ الْمُنَافِقُونَ قَالُوا نَشْهَدُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُهُ وَاللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لَكَاذِبُونَ

When the hypocrites come to you, they say: We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's Apostle; and Allah knows that you are most surely His Apostle, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars.

(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Hujraat, Verse 14:

قَالَتِ الْأَعْرَابُ آمَنَّا قُل لَّمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَٰكِن قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الْإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ وَإِن تُطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لَا يَلِتْكُم مِّنْ أَعْمَالِكُمْ شَيْئًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

The dwellers of the desert say: We believe. Say: You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Apostle, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(English - Shakir)

What happen now?

You should remember that the one witness, other than Allah mentioned in 13:43 is also the witness of Oneness of Allah. 

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 18:

شَهِدَ اللَّهُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ وَأُولُو الْعِلْمِ قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

Allah bears witness that there is no god but He, and (so do) the angels and those possessed of knowledge, maintaining His creation with justice; there is no god but He, the Mighty, the Wise.

(English - Shakir)

I dont know why people  try their best to conceal the facts. Their effort always is to hide the fazeelah of Ahlul Bayt (a.s)

They go too far in their hate that they start claiming that no one possess the complete knowledge of book, hence rejecting the verses of Quran!

 

Edited by Engineer73

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Its not about having whole knowledge of book. Verse says they know him meaning they have knowledge. Its very clear.

[2:146] Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it].

You are right no muslim possess full knowledge of Quran. Not even sahabah and alhebait had full knowledge. But they all had/have this basic knowledge that Prophet saw is the true messenger of Allah. In this regard all true muslims are also witnessess. Which is the main subject of 13:43. It says knowledge not full and complete knowledge.

In Taveel e Khas it refers to jews and christians and in Taveel e aam it refers to all muslims as well.

They know him by the signs mentioned in their Scriptures and as the Prophets told them. While in the verse where Allah AWJ and the person having knowledge of the book are hold as witnesses for Prophets and that person is Imam Ali a.s even though you say that it mentions to all including Muslims because you want to say that Knowledge does not mean entire knowledge. So, even if we take that you will agree that we do not have full knowledge of the Quran and we may be wrong and right in its interpretation. Now, since we do not have full knowledge, how do we know that every action of Prophet PBUHHP was according to Quran? For this context, every human being is ruled out because we do not have that much knowledge to ascertain every action of Prophet according to Quran because our interpretations vary due to lack of knowledge. However, as you yourself admitted that Ahlebait and Imam Ali a.s are accurate in understanding Quran, then according to Justice, it is not right that Allah AWJ asks for witness to those who do not have full knowledge of Quran so that they may be witnesses. And out this lack of knowledge of understanding incapacitates us from being witness along with Allah AWJ.

I hope you understand now. :)

 

Edited by Sindbad05

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Ya Allah Madad said:

Yes. Every Muslim is also a witness. Testifying to the world that Prophet Muhammad saw is the true and final messenger of Allah.

I felt the need to explain my following point further.

 

7 hours ago, Engineer73 said:

You should remember that the one witness, other than Allah mentioned in 13:43 is also the witness of Oneness of Allah. 

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 18:

شَهِدَ اللَّهُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ وَأُولُو الْعِلْمِ قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

Allah bears witness that there is no god but He, and (so do) the angels and those possessed of knowledge, maintaining His creation with justice; there is no god but He, the Mighty, the Wise.

(English - Shakir)

You must note the phrase قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ  here. This means that the personalities mentioned in this verse are already "Qaim" with JUSTICE. Means they don't tend to produce within themselves the quality of justice, they do not follow desires & therefore cannot deviate. This is very important point. Now see  verse 4:135:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُونُواْ قَوَّامِينَ بِالْقِسْطِ شُهَدَاء لِلّهِ وَلَوْ عَلَى أَنفُسِكُمْ أَوِ الْوَالِدَيْنِ وَالأَقْرَبِينَ إِن يَكُنْ غَنِيًّا أَوْ فَقَيرًا فَاللّهُ أَوْلَى بِهِمَا فَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ الْهَوَى أَن تَعْدِلُواْ وَإِن تَلْوُواْ أَوْ تُعْرِضُواْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرًا

(O you who believe! Be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness of Allah's sake, though it may be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives; if he be rich or poor , Allah is nearer to them both in compassion; therefore do not follow (your) desires, lest you deviate; and if you swerve or turn aside, then surely Allah is aware of what you do.)

 So tell me do you think Allah will produce such a witness before kuffar (in 13:43) who is not worth of called as قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ
and will produce the whole bunch of people of the book who yet to produce justice (Qist) within themselves? And who can also follow their desires & get deviated from the right path.

There is much I can discuss here, but I think pointing towards important point is sufficient. 

@Sindbad05, @Mansur Bakhtiari, @DigitalUmmah, @shiaman14, @Lover of Ahlulbait (ams),
 

Edited by Engineer73

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

I felt the need to explain my following point further.

 

You must note the phrase قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ  here. This means that the personalities mentioned in this verse are already "Qaim" with JUSTICE. Means they don't tend to produce within themselves the quality of justice, they do not follow desires & therefore cannot deviate. This is very important point. Now see  verse 4:135:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُونُواْ قَوَّامِينَ بِالْقِسْطِ شُهَدَاء لِلّهِ وَلَوْ عَلَى أَنفُسِكُمْ أَوِ الْوَالِدَيْنِ وَالأَقْرَبِينَ إِن يَكُنْ غَنِيًّا أَوْ فَقَيرًا فَاللّهُ أَوْلَى بِهِمَا فَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ الْهَوَى أَن تَعْدِلُواْ وَإِن تَلْوُواْ أَوْ تُعْرِضُواْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرًا

(O you who believe! Be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness of Allah's sake, though it may be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives; if he be rich or poor , Allah is nearer to them both in compassion; therefore do not follow (your) desires, lest you deviate; and if you swerve or turn aside, then surely Allah is aware of what you do.)

 So tell me do you think Allah will produce such a witness before kuffar (in 13:43) who is not worth of called as قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ
and will produce the whole bunch of people of the book who yet to produce justice (Qist) within themselves? And who can also follow their desires & get deviated from the right path.

There is much I can discuss here, but I think pointing towards important point is sufficient. 

@Sindbad05, @Mansur Bakhtiari, @DigitalUmmah, @shiaman14, @Lover of Ahlulbait (ams),
 

agree @Engineer73 totally with you :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am 100% serious when I say that I had to double-check if I am on ShiaChat or SunniChat.

Are we really discussing the meaning of mawla?

ShiaChat is truly a micro-chasm of the shias from the times of our Imams.

@313 Seeker - The Prophet and Imams did not fail. The 'shias' failed the Imams at every step of the way. That is the true history of the Shia and very aptly represented on SC as well.

Ali is the second creation of Allah after the Prophet. If Allah can give Ali the strength to pull the doors of Khyber with 2 fingers, Allah can give Ali power over all things HE WANTS TO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

 

Ali is the second creation of Allah after the Prophet. If Allah can give Ali the strength to pull the doors of Khyber with 2 fingers, Allah can give Ali power over all things HE WANTS TO.

Could you present one reliable narration from our Prophet [saw] or Imams asws to prove this? Even so, we may need more than one to form aqai'd beliefs.

A reliable one as per our science of rijal, and not based on what one scholar or another may rely on.

Could and Has are two different things. Has Allah azwj given Ali a.s the power to grant all duas, hear all the dua's, and the wisdom and infinite knowledge to ultimately know when, how and where to grant?

Has he thus, 'stepped aside' and yielded his authority and delegated it to someone else?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that the most effective way of dealing with current practise among some shia's is by getting as many dua's and ahadith from Al Kafi , Book of Dua, translated and spread far and wide.

Let the Prophet [saw] and his Ahlulbayt [asws] speak for themselves.

If in danger, we have many ahadith commanding us to say 'O Lord', and we decide to say 'O ALI' then i don't know what else i can possibly say.

I don't think istigatha is outright wrong, it has its' place and some proofs, but it is abused severely, paticularly among sufi's/malangs/and now indo-pak cultural shi'ism.

 

Edited by QuranandAhlulbayt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, QuranandAhlulbayt said:

Could you present one reliable narration from our Prophet [saw] or Imams asws to prove this? Even so, we may need more than one to form aqai'd beliefs.

Prove Khyber or creation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, QuranandAhlulbayt said:

Could and Has are two different things. Has Allah azwj given Ali a.s the power to grant all duas, hear all the dua's, and the wisdom and infinite knowledge to ultimately know when, how and where to grant?

Has he thus, 'stepped aside' and yielded his authority and delegated it to someone else?

The Prophet delegated Imam Ali for some of his affairs. Did he stop being a Prophet by delegating?

You delegate to servants to show your authority and Ali was nothing but a servant of Allah and the Prophet.

Edited by shiaman14

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, QuranandAhlulbayt said:

It seems to me that the most effective way of dealing with current practise among some shia's is by getting as many dua's and ahadith from Al Kafi , Book of Dua, translated and spread far and wide.

Let the Prophet [saw] and his Ahlulbayt [asws] speak for themselves.

If in danger, we have many ahadith commanding us to say 'O Lord', and we decide to say 'O ALI' then i don't know what else i can possibly say.

I don't think istigatha is outright wrong, it has its' place and some proofs, but it is abused severely, paticularly among sufi's/malangs/and now indo-pak cultural shi'ism.

 

Come on brother, you have seen the level or argumentation of this group, they basically build their beliefs on what technically isn't haram, they answer questions with other questions, the answers of which are often open to interpretation.

The case of Khaybar is a fine point, their logic is basically that, Allah could give him the strength to do that, so he can give him the ability to do anything. How are you supposed to argue with that? This level of logic is just embarrassing, by that reasoning there are no limits to anything.

Who is the bigger fool, the fool himself, or the one who argues with him?

They also do the weirdest tafsir of the Qur'an that you have ever seen, and then when you either show them narrations or ask for narrations concerning the verse, they claim that there are multiple interpretations, the tafsir of the Imams isn't the be all and end all of Qur'anic interpretation - which I don't necessarily disagree with, except their explanation makes no sense at all and it often contradicts other verses.

Then when there is a clear verse it's "oh, we can't understand the Qur'an" ...none of this is an exaggeration, the site is full of such examples.

Edited by Ali_Hussain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Come on brother, you have seen the level or argumentation of this group, they basically build their beliefs on what technically isn't haram, they answer questions with other questions, the answers of which are often open to interpretation.

The case of Khaybar is a fine point, their logic is basically that, Allah could give him the strength to do that, so he can give him the ability to do anything. How are you supposed to argue with that? This level of logic is just embarrassing, by that reasoning there are no limits to anything.

Who is the bigger fool, the fool himself, or the one who argues with him?

They also do the weirdest tafsir of the Qur'an that you have ever seen, and then when you either show them narrations or ask for narrations concerning the verse, they claim that there are multiple interpretations, the tafsir of the Imams isn't the be all and end all of Qur'anic interpretation - which I don't necessarily disagree with, except their explanation makes no sense at all and it often contradicts other verses.

Then when there is a clear verse it's "oh, we can't understand the Qur'an" ...none of this is an exaggeration, the site is full of such examples.

I wouldn't entirely blame them. They are just repeating the argumentation they hear and read from speakers and 'scholars'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, QuranandAhlulbayt said:

I don't think istigatha is outright wrong, it has its' place and some proofs, but it is abused severely, paticularly among sufi's/malangs/and now indo-pak cultural shi'ism.

Perhaps you need to get out in the world some more. As expected. It was going to boil down to malang and/or indo-pak culture. 

People in Iraq are known to even use istigatha of Hz Umm-al-Baneen. 

3 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Come on brother, you have seen the level or argumentation of this group, they basically build their beliefs on what technically isn't haram, they answer questions with other questions, the answers of which are often open to interpretation.

The case of Khaybar is a fine point, their logic is basically that, Allah could give him the strength to do that, so he can give him the ability to do anything. How are you supposed to argue with that? This level of logic is just embarrassing, by that reasoning there are no limits to anything.

Who is the bigger fool, the fool himself, or the one who argues with him?

They also do the weirdest tafsir of the Qur'an that you have ever seen, and then when you either show them narrations or ask for narrations concerning the verse, they claim that there are multiple interpretations, the tafsir of the Imams isn't the be all and end all of Qur'anic interpretation - which I don't necessarily disagree with, except their explanation makes no sense at all and it often contradicts other verses.

Then when there is a clear verse it's "oh, we can't understand the Qur'an" ...none of this is an exaggeration, the site is full of such examples.

So then explain Khyber if you are so much smarter than the level of Shias you are complaining about. 

I think the biggest fool is the person who reads 5.55 and then argues that Ali is not his Wali and the ones who get into discussions about the meaning of mawla.

 

2 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

I wouldn't entirely blame them. They are just repeating the argumentation they hear and read from speakers and 'scholars'.

Yes, we are including esteemed scholars and marajae including Ayatollah Khamenei as DU already pointed out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I am 100% serious when I say that I had to double-check if I am on ShiaChat or SunniChat.

Are we really discussing the meaning of mawla?

ShiaChat is truly a micro-chasm of the shias from the times of our Imams.

@313 Seeker - The Prophet and Imams did not fail. The 'shias' failed the Imams at every step of the way. That is the true history of the Shia and very aptly represented on SC as well.

Ali is the second creation of Allah after the Prophet. If Allah can give Ali the strength to pull the doors of Khyber with 2 fingers, Allah can give Ali power over all things HE WANTS TO.

what's your point? you want to keep praying to Imam Ali?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@shiaman14

Quote

think the biggest fool is the person who reads 5.55 and then argues that Ali is not his Wali and the ones who get into discussions about the meaning of mawla.

Brother @Ali_Hussain is Shi'i so I'm sure he believes in the Wilayah of Ali [AS] just as much as you, or me, or any believer.

Edited by E.L King

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

what's your point? you want to keep praying to Imam Ali?

No one prays to Imam Ali. We use him as wasteland exactly as it is stated in dua-e-tawasul. A simple and straightforward dua recited across the world by shias and at all the shrines.

32 minutes ago, E.L King said:

@shiaman14

Brother @Ali_Hussain is Shi'i so I'm sure he believes in the Wilayah of Ali [AS] just as much as you, or me, or any believer.

Please go back to Pg 13-14 (I think) where someone (it wasn't brother Ali_Hussain) was asking for proof about Imam Ali being Wali and I pointed to this ayah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It has been mentioned several times that we only pray from Allah (s.w.t). We don't recognize Imam Ali (a.s) as Wajib-ul-Wujud thing. We believe that Allah is Ahad, Allah is Samad, He begets not, nor is He begotten and none is like Him.  

As for Imam Ali (a.s), we know his father, grandfather, his mother, his sons, his wife etc.  So it should be clear to all of you that in our point of view, Imam Ali is not Allah. It was cleared in very first post by me:

On ‎09‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 1:44 PM, Engineer73 said:

Who is Ali (a.s)? 

We know him as Waliullah, wasi of Rasoolullah (peace & blessings of Allah be on him & his pure progeny), Imam ul muttaqeen. We know him as true & pure servant of Allah. We know him as wajhullah, yadullah, ainullah, lisanullah etc.

Why you think that asking help from him is any sort of shirk? 

Now lets see the following verses of Quran where Prophet Isa (a.s) is asking help of others:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 52:

فَلَمَّا أَحَسَّ عِيسَىٰ مِنْهُمُ الْكُفْرَ قَالَ مَنْ أَنصَارِي إِلَى اللَّهِ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنصَارُ اللَّهِ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَاشْهَدْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ

But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones.

(English - Shakir)

Now see what Al-Ghani Allah (s.w.t) saying in this verse:

Surah Muhammad, Verse 7:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِن تَنصُرُوا اللَّهَ يَنصُرْكُمْ وَيُثَبِّتْ أَقْدَامَكُمْ

O you who believe! if you help (the cause of) Allah, He will help you and make firm your feet.

(English - Shakir)

Now the problem is that, the ideology which is similar to nawasibs, continue to put false allegations on us that our call to Imam Ali (a.s) equals to as we are calling someone besides Allah (s.w.t). The present before us this verse:

"Do you not know that Allah's is the kingdom if the heavens and earth, and that besides Allah you have no guardian or helper?" (Qur'an 2:107)

Well, we see in Quran that Allah Himself appointing others as our guardian or helper:

"Only Allah is your Vali and His apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. And whoever takes Allah and His apostle and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant." (Qur'an 5:55-56)

We have taken Allah, His apostle & Imam Ali (a.s) and rest of 11 Imams as our guardian, we are the party of Allah, we have this certificate with us Alhamdolillah. 

We have the example of Christians with us, they have contaminated the Oneness of Allah by saying that Jesus is the son of God (Nauzobillah), and started believing on triune nature of God. Now time to see what Quran say about them:

"Say: O followers of the book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not worship any but Allah and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah; but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims." (Qur'an 3:64)

We don't worship any except Allah (s.w.t), None is His equal, No associate has He. This is the equitable proposition between those who are debating with us for so long. 

Our reply to your objections is very similar to the reply which Prophet Jesus has given to Allah (s.w.t) in Quran:
" And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah, he will sayL Glory to be Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things" (Qur'an 5:116)

Know that, It does not suits to us that we call Ali (a.s) as Allah, not Ali (a.s) himself taught us that. If we are calling Ali (a.s) besides Allah, He (Allah) would certainly know that, and we know that there will be severe punishment for the mushrikeen in this world & in here-after.

So please, stop worrying about ourselves & worry about your own self.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Engineer73 said:

"Do you not know that Allah's is the kingdom if the heavens and earth, and that besides Allah you have no guardian or helper?" (Qur'an 2:107)

Well, we see in Quran that Allah Himself appointing others as our guardian or helper:

"Only Allah is your Vali and His apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. And whoever takes Allah and His apostle and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant." (Qur'an 5:55-56)

ok so first you show us Allah saying that we have no Waly other than Allah.

Then you try to disprove Allah himself by saying that he has partners.

How do you interpret 2:107?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Then you try to disprove Allah himself by saying that he has partners.

It seems to me that you are ignoring the very basic fact while involving in questioning me like that.
"Wa Huwa Ma'akum Aina Ma Kuntum" (57:4)

I prefer to hold patience on this takfeer.

Edited by Engineer73

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Then you try to disprove Allah himself by saying that he has partners.

 

1 hour ago, Engineer73 said:

Well, we see in Quran that Allah Himself appointing others as our guardian or helper:

"Only Allah is your Vali and His apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. And whoever takes Allah and His apostle and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant." (Qur'an 5:55-56)

 

Edited by Engineer73

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...