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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why are the 4 Sunni Imams Sunni?

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I'm not quite sure, but this hadith here about abu hanifa (one of the students of Imam sadiq) is graded sahih and authentic.

[2/55] al-Kafi: Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. Isa b. Ubayd from Yunus b. Abd al-Rahman from Sima’a b. Mihran from Abi al-Hasan Musa عليه السلام, I said: may Allah make you prosper - we do gather and discuss what we have (from you), nothing is referred to us (of questions) except that we have in it something (answer) recorded (on your authority), and that is from what Allah has blessed us with through you, however a small thing may be referred to us in which we have nothing (from you), so we look at one another (in hopelessness), but we do have something similar to it (answers from you about parallel scenarios) - should we analogize it (the question asked) to the most suited (closest scenario)? he said: and what do you have to do with analogical reasoning? verily they were destroyed those who were destroyed before you because of analogical reasoning, then he said: if it comes to you that which you have knowledge of then - say, and if it comes to you that which you do not know then - and he pointed with his hand to his mouth, then he said: may Allah curse Aba Hanifa he used to say: “Ali said but I say” and “the companions said but I say”, then he said: did you use to sit with him (in his teaching sessions)? I said: no - but these are his words, then I said: may Allah make you prosper - the messenger of Allah came with all that which would suffice them (the people) in his time? he said: yes, and even that which they will have need of up to the day of judgment, I said: has anything from that been lost? he said: no, it is with his family.  

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It is my opinion that Abu Hanifa was probably Shia. I think he has been done a terrible injustice by modern Shias. 

Abu Hanifa was a well know jurist and he was offered the post of Chief Ghazi of the Islamic empire. He turned it down saying he 'wasn't worthy'. The Khalifa of the time was so incensed that he put Abu Hanifa in prison and poisoned him,

2 Khalifas later another Khalifa offered the position to Abu Hanifas student Yusuf and he accepted.

Everything we know and are taught about the beliefs of abu Hanifa come to us through his student Yusuf and 1 or 2 others.

Furthermore I believe Abu Hanifa didnt leave a book or written account . Everything was transmitted on the authority of his students

The reason why Hanifa school of thought is so widespread is that it was the mazhab of the government.

I ask what was so important to Abu Hanifa that he would rather die in prison then compromise with the Khalifa.

Likewise what compromise did Yusuf make to make this mazhab more palatable to the Abbaside Khalifas

Historians have recorded that Abu Hanifa wanted the 'children of Ali' to become Khalifa. You will note 'children of Ali' not 'children of Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman'. It is reported that he collected and sent money to Shazada Zaid in Yemen to aid in his revolt.

Finally to the 'authentic hadith cursing Abu Hanifa' . I have no doubt it is genuine. What better way to save Abu Hanifa from prison except to curse him. Make the Khalifas believe that Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) was against him.  

Some of this conjecture and guess work but it sounds more true to me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hanifa

Edited by A true Sunni
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14 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

It is my opinion that Abu Hanifa was probably Shia. I think he has been done a terrible injustice by modern Shias. 

Abu Hanifa was a well know jurist and he was offered the post of Chief Ghazi of the Islamic empire. He turned it down saying he 'wasn't worthy'. The Khalifa of the time was so incensed that he put Abu Hanifa in prison and poisoned him,

2 Khalifas later another Khalifa offered the position to Abu Hanifas student Yusuf and he accepted.

Everything we know and are taught about the beliefs of abu Hanifa come to us through his student Yusuf and 1 or 2 others.

Furthermore I believe Abu Hanifa didnt leave a book or written account . Everything was transmitted on the authority of his students

The reason why Hanifa school of thought is so widespread is that it was the mazhab of the government.

I ask what was so important to Abu Hanifa that he would rather die in prison then compromise with the Khalifa.

Likewise what compromise did Yusuf make to make this mazhab more palatable to the Abbaside Khalifas

Historians have recorded that Abu Hanifa wanted the 'children of Ali' to become Khalifa. You will note 'children of Ali' not 'children of Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman'. It is reported that he collected and sent money to Shazada Zaid in Yemen to aid in his revolt.

Finally to the 'authentic hadith cursing Abu Hanifa' . I have no doubt it is genuine. What better way to save Abu Hanifa from prison except to curse him. Make the Khalifas believe that Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) was against him.  

Some of this conjecture and guess work but it sounds more true to me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hanifa

Indeed, the Hanifi madhab we know today is the hijacked Abbasid government version by Abu Yusuf.

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On 3/13/2017 at 2:50 AM, Learner2526 said:

I heard that the shia imam Jafar al-Sadiq taught some of the founders of the Sunni madhab. M y question is if Jafar taught them then why are they Sunni, wouldn't they see that he was infallible and become shia?

Maybe the information is not exactly accurate.

 

Imam Jafar Alsadiq died in 148 A.H., He did teach Abu-Hanifa for sometime (around 1-2 years), and probably less than that for Malik.

 

Al-shafi'e was born later (near 150 AH) an d Ahmad Ibn Hanbal was born around 161. Alshafi'e has studied under Malik and Ahmad Ibn Hanbal Have studied under al-shafi'e.

 

The last two have not directly studied under imam Sadiq

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On 3/12/2017 at 10:50 PM, Learner2526 said:

I heard that the shia imam Jafar al-Sadiq taught some of the founders of the Sunni madhab. M y question is if Jafar taught them then why are they Sunni, wouldn't they see that he was infallible and become shia?

Couple of things to add

If you notice, Malik barely narrats from imam sadiq (only about 8-10 Hadiths from Imam sadiq) out of a total fo about 1900 narrations. This guy lived in the same city as imam and he could have seen him quite a lot of times: he died only 30 years after imam (died at 179 and born about 95AH)  and could have easily had many narrations from imam. You can see that this is certainly intentional avoidance from him for the Imam. I am sure anyone would want to know why. some tried to explain that by claiming that he couldnt narrate from Imam sadiq during the ummayat times. However, ummayat kingdom has fallen at 132 and he had good 20 years with the imam to take from his knowledge. another explaination could be because he couldnt repeatedly mention his name in his book due to political reasons. There is famous story that the Abassi king was asking some of the schoolars (Abu Hanifa) to draw attention away from Jaffar Ibn Muhammad (the imam) or somehow deal with him because he has been a cause for "fitna" as he claimed, and then Abu Hanifa made up very hard questions to show people imam does not know how to solve these problems. Aside from the details of this story, it can be a straightforward implication that the rulers were not really happy with our imams. Add to that the fact that malik has written his book as per the request of the ruler king, Abu jaffar Al-munsoor, one can easily link the reasoning why he didnt have many narrations from imam sadiq: and even if he wanted, he book wouldnt sell; his book must have been advertised by the government anyway (because they requested him to write it).

Whether in his heart he wanted to narrate from imam or not, in reality, he didnt do that but very rarely. 

For the same reason,  you can see why these schoolars did not become shia. The shia are the guys who accompanied the imams and stayed with them for prolonged periods, and resisted the political pressure, not abandoning their imams. The others rarely knew anything about the knowledge of our imams.

thats my opinion.

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5 hours ago, LostInTheBooks said:

 

For the same reason,  you can see why these schoolars did not become shia. The shia are the guys who accompanied the imams and stayed with them for prolonged periods, and resisted the political pressure, not abandoning their imams. The others rarely knew anything about the knowledge of our imams.

thats my opinion.

We have to realise that what we consider to be the 4 Sunni schools of thought are really a development of ideas and principles centered around these 4 personalities that took place over hundreds of years. In fact the Chief Ghazi had the power to appoint provisional jurists.

These Jurists were loyal to the Khalifa and in turn influenced the students and teachers of these 4 schools. In the beginning these schools weren't monolithic but were vibrant and adaptable.

History of the 4 recognised schools

The Mamluks only recognised 4 excluding one that went into extinction. The Ottomans later reaffirmed this in order to be a bulwark against Shia Islam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab

 

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1 hour ago, A true Sunni said:

We have to realise that what we consider to be the 4 Sunni schools of thought are really a development of ideas and principles centered around these 4 personalities that took place over hundreds of years. In fact the Chief Ghazi had the power to appoint provisional jurists.

These Jurists were loyal to the Khalifa and in turn influenced the students and teachers of these 4 schools. In the beginning these schools weren't monolithic but were vibrant and adaptable.

History of the 4 recognised schools

The Mamluks only recognised 4 excluding one that went into extinction. The Ottomans later reaffirmed this in order to be a bulwark against Shia Islam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab

 

Some people believe these madahib falled right out of heaven while the establishment and selection of these Four was only a political state affair of one of the preceding Turkic-Mongolian empires that appeared long after the Rashidun.

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1 hour ago, A true Sunni said:

We have to realise that what we consider to be the 4 Sunni schools of thought are really a development of ideas and principles centered around these 4 personalities that took place over hundreds of years. In fact the Chief Ghazi had the power to appoint provisional jurists.

These Jurists were loyal to the Khalifa and in turn influenced the students and teachers of these 4 schools. In the beginning these schools weren't monolithic but were vibrant and adaptable.

History of the 4 recognised schools

The Mamluks only recognised 4 excluding one that went into extinction. The Ottomans later reaffirmed this in order to be a bulwark against Shia Islam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab

 

Some people believe these madahib falled right out of heaven while the establishment and selection of these Four was only a political state affair of one of the preceding Turkic-Mongolian empires that appeared long after the Rashidun.

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12 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Some people believe these madahib falled right out of heaven while the establishment and selection of these Four was only a political state affair of one of the preceding Turkic-Mongolian empires that appeared long after the Rashidun.

LOL fell out of heaven and they cant even decide on a single format for Salaat.

What happened to the muslims who were around before these 4 became sanctified.

Unusual position for any Sunnis considering that they had so many jurists and it was only force of government that reduced it to 4

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6 hours ago, A true Sunni said:

and it was only force of government that reduced it to 4

Exactly! While nowadays it is cherished as if it was a Divine Command.

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On 3/13/2017 at 1:40 PM, A true Sunni said:

It is my opinion that Abu Hanifa was probably Shia. I think he has been done a terrible injustice by modern Shias. 

Abu Hanifa was a well know jurist and he was offered the post of Chief Ghazi of the Islamic empire. He turned it down saying he 'wasn't worthy'. The Khalifa of the time was so incensed that he put Abu Hanifa in prison and poisoned him,

2 Khalifas later another Khalifa offered the position to Abu Hanifas student Yusuf and he accepted.

Everything we know and are taught about the beliefs of abu Hanifa come to us through his student Yusuf and 1 or 2 others.

Furthermore I believe Abu Hanifa didnt leave a book or written account . Everything was transmitted on the authority of his students

The reason why Hanifa school of thought is so widespread is that it was the mazhab of the government.

I ask what was so important to Abu Hanifa that he would rather die in prison then compromise with the Khalifa.

Likewise what compromise did Yusuf make to make this mazhab more palatable to the Abbaside Khalifas

Historians have recorded that Abu Hanifa wanted the 'children of Ali' to become Khalifa. You will note 'children of Ali' not 'children of Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman'. It is reported that he collected and sent money to Shazada Zaid in Yemen to aid in his revolt.

Finally to the 'authentic hadith cursing Abu Hanifa' . I have no doubt it is genuine. What better way to save Abu Hanifa from prison except to curse him. Make the Khalifas believe that Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) was against him.  

Some of this conjecture and guess work but it sounds more true to me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hanifa

One of the teachers if Abu hanifa  was Al qama b qays  who was a kufan an important companion of Imam Ali 

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1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

One of the teachers if Abu hanifa  was Al qama b qays  who was a kufan an important companion of Imam Ali 

If I'm not wrong, the Wahhabi's despise Abu Hanifa because his school was inspired by the Kufans?

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On 3/13/2017 at 2:50 AM, Learner2526 said:

I heard that the shia imam Jafar al-Sadiq taught some of the founders of the Sunni madhab. M y question is if Jafar taught them then why are they Sunni, wouldn't they see that he was infallible and become shia?

How do you see if someone doesnt sin?

 

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3 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

^not sure but could be 

The 4 madhabs of Sunni obviously do have local regional influences 

The 4 madhabs were originally known by their 'regional names' its only later that they adopted specific person names.

So Maliki's school was known as the 'Medinite school', Hanafi was known as the Kufan school of thought 

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31 minutes ago, baqar said:

What absolutely baffles me is why Sunnis did not have another school that followed our sixth Imam.

All evidence points to the fact that he was far better equipped to be master of fiqh than any of the other four.

Because its the religion of the government by the government for the people.

Its my opinion that they poisoned Abu Hanifa precisely because he wouldnt give up the Ahlul Bait. Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) was the government main protagonist

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2 hours ago, Learner2526 said:

Wouldn't he also tell them he was the imam and is divinely guided?

Salaam Brother,

I think you are missing the point, Imam Abu Hanifa has not left a written record of what he believed. What ever he believed he died for because he gave up the powerful Islamic 'job' in the empire saying he wasnt worthy. It seems he didnt want to do the bidding of the Khalifa 

What ever we are taught about Imam Abu Hanifa is second hand via his students. They didnt seem to have a problem accepting the 'job' that their teacher rejected.

I would ask the question what was it that Imam Abu Hanifa was not prepared to compromise on that was so important that he died for it and what is it that his students compromised on.

I think its simple in Sunni writings it says that Imam Abu Hanifa wanted the 'descendants of Ali' to have the Khalifat.

No mention of 'democratic elections, nominations or shura councils'. Simple straight forward 'Descendants of Ali' . Not I note the children of the Sahaba. 

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9 hours ago, Learner2526 said:

Wouldn't he also tell them he was the imam and is divinely guided?

You have to remember that saying this or admitting this is a death sentence in most times of our history. 

So even if he said it and they believed it, they may not admit it publicly. For example, during the time of Muawiya, yazeed, etc do you think if someone says they are a shia of Ali, things are going to be fine for them?

It would be like if you were in Israel today and you said you support Hizbollah. You may believe that, but you know saying it will have consequences.

You have to remember the hatred some held for the Ahl Bayt AS, and the love those people had for power. Every time you doubt it, just remember how many wars there were against Imam Ali AS, against Hassan AS, Hussein AS etc

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On ‎16‎-‎3‎-‎2017 at 2:06 PM, iraqi_shia said:

You have to remember that saying this or admitting this is a death sentence in most times of our history. 

So even if he said it and they believed it, they may not admit it publicly. For example, during the time of Muawiya, yazeed, etc do you think if someone says they are a shia of Ali, things are going to be fine for them?

It would be like if you were in Israel today and you said you support Hizbollah. You may believe that, but you know saying it will have consequences.

You have to remember the hatred some held for the Ahl Bayt AS, and the love those people had for power. Every time you doubt it, just remember how many wars there were against Imam Ali AS, against Hassan AS, Hussein AS etc

Yes but then still ..

Islam is a religion of expression. Caliphacy of Adam a.s. is tantamount to the practicing of Islam and thereby submit creation to Allah in words and deeds. Secretly and openly.

Secretly to emphasize the importance of belief in God alone and openly to be an example for other people.

It is not meant to be a secretive and inward thing that only exists in the depths of the soul.

If accepting the Imam of the Time is a condition for salvation then it should be declared openly.

Its support maybe not in case of war or behind enemy lines but then still ..

 

Edited by Faruk
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On ‎15‎-‎3‎-‎2017 at 11:32 PM, A true Sunni said:

The 4 madhabs were originally known by their 'regional names' its only later that they adopted specific person names.

So Maliki's school was known as the 'Medinite school', Hanafi was known as the Kufan school of thought 

I adore your correction.

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5 minutes ago, A true Sunni said:

LOL it wasn't a correction, I was actually providing the proof for his supposition that the schools were geographically based. 

I didn't knew the schools were named like that.

Do you realize what a diffirence it makes when the schools are named to their cities of origin?

It sheds a light on historical and political aspects as well.

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7 minutes ago, Faruk said:

I didn't knew the schools were named like that.

Do you realize what a diffirence it makes when the schools are named to their cities of origin?

It sheds a light on historical and political aspects as well.

Absolutely. I dont know when the schools were named after the 4 Imams. I wouldnt be surprised if it was the Ottomans who did it in order to counter Shia Islam.

History of the Maliki school is fascinating since it was called the Medinite school. As Shias we often accuse Omar of institutionalising hand clasping during Salaat but this according to what I have read is false and is likely to have been an Abbaside innovation

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Maliki school of thought is fascinating it has an extra level of jurisprudence in comparison to the other 3. The Maliki school was originally called the Medinite school. Malikis as you know pray with their hands open.

The extra level of jurisprudence is that if you face an intractable problem with 2 conflicting opinions then you should look to see what the inhabitants of Medina do.

in line with this it is recorded that Imam Qasim a student of Imam Malik what his opinion was of hand clasping.

Imam Malik said I have never seen the inhabitants of Medina clasp their hands.

if Umar had bought about the change then there would have been a mixture of open and hand clasping but Maliki said NEVER. in addition the Ibaadis of Oman who are the descendants of the Kharijis all pray with their hands open. This is important because they were the first recognisable split from the Ummah . They fought the Abbasides Ummayads and Hz Ali(as).

this is further proof that open hands was the original form

of salaat

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