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Qa'im

American Muslims and Islam Drift Apart

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8 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Is this author saying our cause goes hand in hand with LGBT ?

I think the author is saying that Muslims LGBT are "aggrieved “communities” demanding emancipation from the White Male Power Structure" so they work together as referenced by the quote from the leader of a Major Muslim org.

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This isn't a struggle of identity politics or a culture of micro aggressions.  Simply put, and the left is the only side correctly identifying this phenomenon, and has been since Karl Marx.  It is a class struggle.  The battle lines are 1/10 of 1% who own nearly everything versus everyone else. 

Coalitions will form along different lines and based on different grievances, but at the root of it all, the cause is the same: the richest continue to lie, cheat, steal, and feel entitled to rig the global power structure against everyone else.  And they do this by re-writing laws to favor their causes, ensure permanent majorities, and build bought-off oligarchies.  Ever notice that the same people always tend to win? I recognize all other struggles as being offshoots of the same larger struggle.

Simply put: as a Muslim, I will not stand by and watch the LBGT community be persecuted.  As I've said so many times, leave the judging of to Allah (S W T) and stand up for anyone who fears for their own safety or who isn't treated with the basic human dignity that we all should expect.  If those who don't stand  up against oppression are as guilty as the oppressor (as Imam al Hussein (AS) famously said), then I would think that it is a moral obligation to stand up for all who are oppressed. I'm not condoning homosexual behavior, but neither am I condemning it.  That is up to Allah (S W T) to judge.  I will keep my interpersonal relations halal, but make bloody well sure I'm standing up for anyone and I do mean anyone who fears for their safety or well-being.

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1 hour ago, reisiger said:

This isn't a struggle of identity politics or a culture of micro aggressions.  Simply put, and the left is the only side correctly identifying this phenomenon, and has been since Karl Marx.  It is a class struggle.  The battle lines are 1/10 of 1% who own nearly everything versus everyone else. 

Coalitions will form along different lines and based on different grievances, but at the root of it all, the cause is the same: the richest continue to lie, cheat, steal, and feel entitled to rig the global power structure against everyone else.  And they do this by re-writing laws to favor their causes, ensure permanent majorities, and build bought-off oligarchies.  Ever notice that the same people always tend to win? I recognize all other struggles as being offshoots of the same larger struggle.

Simply put: as a Muslim, I will not stand by and watch the LBGT community be persecuted.  As I've said so many times, leave the judging of to Allah (S W T) and stand up for anyone who fears for their own safety or who isn't treated with the basic human dignity that we all should expect.  If those who don't stand  up against oppression are as guilty as the oppressor (as Imam al Hussein (AS) famously said), then I would think that it is a moral obligation to stand up for all who are oppressed. I'm not condoning homosexual behavior, but neither am I condemning it.  That is up to Allah (S W T) to judge.  I will keep my interpersonal relations halal, but make bloody well sure I'm standing up for anyone and I do mean anyone who fears for their safety or well-being.

:salam:

Dear brother, this LGBT struggle today is not one of emancipation of survival, it is one of transformation of our societies - for the worse since it aims at enforce traditions which were always seen by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì as an abomination, since the Torah.

We should not fall for this, we know very well Allah's judgement about this perversion s no doubt condoning it is a grave sin. As for the small `gay-muslim` portion of the minority, let them reform themselves for the better rather than letting them pollute our future generations.

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Guest silasun

@reisiger The thing is that this is a community and movement whose entire identity is anti-Islamic. When a person identifies themselves with that label they are immediately saying that they are diametrically opposed to Islamic values. 

It's a community which stands firmly against our family values. So what do we do? Would we also work with Muslim organisations who lobby Muslim scholars to reform hijab laws? Would we stand shoulder to shoulder with radical Marxists who are pushing for a state which stands against religion? 

It is up to Allah to judge who goes to hell  but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't condemn forbidden actions - it's actually obligatory to do that. This forms two of our 10 branches of religion. Homosexuality is one of the most deadly sins and it does indeed lead to hell.

Any statement which makes people think that homosexual activity is OK (like a Shia cleric standing on a stage with such activists) would be totally forbidden in Shariah. Islamic penal code mentions homosexuality because it is such a dangerous sin and destroys societies - this isn't about standing by an oppressed community, it's about protecting society. It's also about protecting those who engage in this behaviour. The oppression that they are committing against their souls is much worse than any oppression that any minority faces - the metaphysical is real and whilst insults and physical pain disappear, a damaged soul can never return to its pristine state.

Of course, this is a different discussion to our attitude to those who commit sins. We have to stand against this behaviour for the sake of those who engage in it because they are destroying their souls. God is all-clement (al-ra'oof) and we have to have this attitude when guiding others away from haram behaviour.

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Besides the debate on standing by the aggrieved LGBT and others -

I agree with the author's assertions, that Islam seizes to be Islam and turns into a cultural cult if the universality of Islam is lost at the altar of leftist (or any other) expediency.

I disagree with the author though that this indeed is happening in the USA among American Muslims. Based on what I've learned, there is a real cognizance among many American Muslims to reach out to our non-Muslim American brethren be they Atheist, Christians, Catholics, Budhists, or others and build coalitions based on genuine understanding and respect. Not your typical superficial interfaith sessions in mosques and churches.

For Shia, every cause that is the cause of the oppressed is the cause of Muslims because it is part of our religion to stand up for the truth and against the oppression.

If this does happen in practice, I can at least see non-Shia Muslims (I call them the courtier Muslims who historically aligned themselves with the order of the day, Ummayad, Abbasid, Ottomans, GCC Arabs, Erdogan etc.), at least politically taste and practice what we Shia believe in and hopefully act upon, that is standing with the oppressed no matter the loses. I highly doubt it though as Sunni Muslims as a group are incompatible with peaceful political resistance as has been proved time and again in ME and elsewhere. Sunnis who unfortunately are majority Muslims just don't have the ideological and intellectual legacy to be in a weaker and equally active "peaceful" opposition.

Overall, this is a high time for Muslims to make a long lasting and deepening impression in American society despite us being less than 2% of the population. Again unfortunately I do not see a religious and politically savvy popular leadership. ICNA and ISNA are inhabited by sectarian minded boot-lickers happy to support Halliburton's wars in Syria and Yemen.    

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I have a lot of thoughts on this article and the phenomenon it discusses.

Let's start with a few examples from the past couple years. We saw Hamza Yusuf get snubbed by some of the most popular Western Muslim leaders for his criticism of Black Lives Matter, an LGBT organization that essentializes race, promotes non-nuclear family structures, and has a materialist structuralist view on suffering. We saw CAIR put Islamophobia and homophobia in the same boat. We saw Tariq Ramadan leave the biggest Muslim convention in the West because they refused to condemn drone strikes, wiretapping, domestic spying, and autocracies. We saw Yasir Qadhi, Mehdi Hasan, and Linda Sarsour approving the legalization of gay marriage in America. We saw Linda Sarsour lead the biggest feminist march in the world, where women wore genital hats, promoted rights for transsexuals, pro-abortion activists, being "nasty women", and wrapped their scarves in American flags. Even Muslim intellectuals like Seyyed Hossein Nasr are promoting a Schuon-esque perennialism that marginalizes Muhammadan law and ethics. There comes a point where this is no longer Muslim solidarity with the safety other groups, but other groups hijacking and infiltrating our religion. Not only is this spiritually dangerous, but it is impractical, and I will explain why.

It is clear that most Muslim youth identify with leftist politics, since it is multicultural and inclusive. Unfortunately, that comes with baggage: secularism, individualism, naturalism and religious skepticism, identity politics, LGBT rights, hookup culture and the normalization of sex, third wave feminism, body positivism, political correctness, and in general pro-revolutionary sentiments in almost every situation where even mild grievances exist. Balancing this with the Islamic tradition, which can be opposite on most of these issues, is particularly troublesome. The hipster Muslima with a rainbow scarf and a Guevara shirt marching at a Sl*tWalk is becoming increasingly more normal in Western Muslim communities.

The left/right spectrum is a construct - a useful one, but a construct nonetheless - and social trends that affect one side of the spectrum are likely to be common in other parts of the spectrum as well. An interesting phenomenon nowadays, which manifested in the election of Trump, Brexit, and nationalism in Europe, is the alt-right. The alt-right is neo-masculine, nationalistic, populist, and reactionary. While it is on the right of the spectrum, it is unlike the old conservatives - it is liberal on the use of drugs and contraception, it is skeptical of religion (they vary from very atheist to very Christian), and it is sexually promiscuous. So on most social issues, besides immigration, the new millennial conservatives are pretty "liberal" in the 90s / early 2000s sense of the word. What we're seeing today is nationwide degeneracy and nastiness, and an open rebellion against parents, tradition, and general nobility and honour. Both the right and the left are in their post-truth echochambers, where their Facebook feeds are filled with confirmation bias.

The root of the postmodern left is not Marx, but Foucault. He inspired a system that allowed the middle-class intelligentsia to develop discourses for marginalized peoples (people of colour, the poor, the disabled, women, children, and homosexuals). They covered up the obscenities of contemporary America (violence and racism) by promoting a jargon that masks the failure of Western civilization to overcome racism. By the 1980s, these intellectuals formed their own "marginalized" narratives of history, each hardly truer than the other. Together they made a fabric of discourses, each being either dominant (Eurocentric, male-centric), or marginal. At first sight, it appears compassinate to give a voice to marginalized people, but this 1980s postmodernist system offers no ultimate solutions or salvation for struggling people the way Marxism or Christianity did. There was no way out of the suffering - only a means to "resist" established powers and survive on the margin. What Foucault, and in extension, BLM, LGBT, democratic socialists, and new Muslim activists are offering is a gospel of intellectual disobedience in the name of the downtrodden. But, they behave within the system and not outside of it. Each group entrenches itself in tolerance, then proceed to deconstruct the cultural artifacts of other groups (books, scholarly articles, films). They disintegrate much but construct nothing. Both dominant and marginal discourses ultimately put their faith in the market, and fall back onto the Anglosaxon individualist naturalist yeoman sentiment. They are experts in jargon, but not actual dissent - just an allergy to religion, Eurocentrism, white male chauvinism, and absolutism. Both camps pride themselves on science and technology, and are averse to traditionalism and religion. They both believe that the world is driven by chance and power. Foucault offered educated bourgeois the opportunity to side with and speak for the working class, and become the new star of a neoliberal Left. They have no agenda or program, only "dissent" against the dominant view. Take feminists for example: many feminists are intersectional and co-opt elements of Marxism, but ultimately, they are not awaiting some proletarian revolution - they are more bent on co-opting the current socio-political and economic system to give themselves a bigger piece of the pie.

In the end, leftist identity politics is what created the alt-right, because it got the millennial right to think in terms of whiteness. Their reaction is what created Trump, Brexit, and the rise of nationalism in Europe. Rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Muslims need to tread lightly and understand these issues fully.

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28 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

In the end, leftist identity politics is what created the alt-right, because it got the millennial right to think in terms of whiteness. Their reaction is what created Trump, Brexit, and the rise of nationalism in Europe. Rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Muslims need to tread lightly and understand these issues fully.

Salaam brother,

I agreed with your entire article but disagree with your conclusion. I don't think leftist identity politics created the Alt-Right movement.

I think leftist identity politics forced "White Male Power Structure" to come into the open but they have always existed. Alt-Right is really just a political name for White-Power, belief in the Aryan nation, etc. 

Politically, we (Muslims) are extremely naive and inept at understanding US politics. For example, as much as we hear about homosexuality in the US, apparently only 3% - 4% of the US population identifies as being gay. For being such a small number, they get a remarkable amount of coverage in the media. I pin this down to being highly politically savvy and having a set agenda they are working on.

Even within our own community, we are still deciding whether we should participate in US politics. Then we cry foul over Islamophobia.

Edited by shiaman14

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There are certainly historical precedents for white nationalism. such as Nazism and the KKK. But those ideologies were quite Christian and promoted the natural subordination of other races and the social darwinist superiority of their own race. There are some alt-right folks that overlap with these ideas, but I would say that the movement as a whole operates on a more of a secular tribalist sentiment. The alt-right is just Eurocentric male-centric identity politics.

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There are streams within the Alt-Right that are pro-tradition. Google neo-reactionary and dark enlightenment, and look at this article as well:

http://www.rooshv.com/what-is-neomasculinity

Although there are elements of post-truth in both streams, I would say overall the Alt-Right has strong modernist elements (meaning they believe in truth in the Enlightenment sense) whereas most of the progressive left is overwhelmingly post-Truth and is about "constructing narratives" (or deconstructing as is usually the case.)

I think the main problem is that we don't have a single pop-Muslim figure who is not afraid to be politically incorrect. Hamza Yusuf is kinda getting there but he doesn't seem like a particularly confrontational person and something tells me he's not fully aware of what's going on.

Good article, overall I agree with Qa'im's analysis.

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So we all said a lot, are there any solutions, courses of action, general ways of involvement that one could muster here? 

Overall from the colorful Muslim American political spectrum, we can safely infer that it is good to have diverse folks among us, if for no other use, at least for hedging our bets. I like more organic growth anyway since for now a unified voice of Muslims would do more harm than good, it's just not the right time and environment. A few visible Muslims in All paces is better for us than a lots of Muslims in a Few places. 

On a more personal level, besides having a few diehard nuts among us between UMAA and Muslim Congress, majority of us agree / disagree, associate / ditch, follow / ignore both with UMAA and MC. I find more good in this than bad. 

As long as we can manage to keep our own morality and values intact and don't stoop too much into any of the currents we see in USA / West, we should be good inshAllah.

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You don't have to support a person's actions and lifestyle to work to prevent oppression of them. No human being should be oppressed.

I support gay "marriage" not because I believe in gay marriage, but because I believe marriage is none of the secular government's business. They have no right to force any religious group to recognize any marriage, nor do they have a right to prevent any religious group from recognizing any marriage. The purpose of government is to prevent the powerful from abusing the weak. As long as nobody is being forced into it, marriage is none of their concern (in a secular country). 

We Muslims are less than 2% of the population in the United States. We need allies. We can tell them that we believe their ways are sinful, but we shouldn't let any other group be abused. We should be known as people of justice an AND conviction. 

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The Quran speaks of a community that violated the Sabbath. That community comprised of three types of people: (1) the violators, (2) those who spoke out against the violation, (3) those who wanted to leave the violators alone.

The problem with the "I don't believe in gay marriage but I support it politically" line of argumentation is that it assumes our law against gay marriage is just some ritual or legal technicality, when the Quran and hadith considered it deeply immoral. Sunnis have some excuse here, because there is much less legal precedent against homosexuality in Sunni tradition than there is in Shii tradition. But the Ahl al-Bayt spoke in very clear terms and I simply can't put that aside because "we need allies". Our ally is Allah, with whom anything is overpowered and without whom nothing can take place. If an alliance with the gay lobby means that we have to promote gender fluidity and gay marriage to third graders (this is in my province's official education system), or that I have to be muzzled and start a media circus because I don't want to use gender-neutral pronouns like "xe" instead of he or she (like in many universities now), then it's an alliance I can do without. I simply cannot imagine Lady Fatima (as) wearing a pink genital hat, or an American flag hijab, or rally against nuclear families, or taking part in so much of what's going on. She would call it what it is, social decadence.

There are proven negative affects on children that grow up in a fatherless home or a motherless home - they are more likely to be affected by poverty, crime, academic failure, unstable relationships, and mental health issues. Not to mention the sale of body parts of aborted embryos. It is deeply immoral to facilitate these things. The Ahl al-Bayt refrained from supporting Umayyads and Abbasids, the former was ardently against them, and the latter was sneakily against them; much like the Republicans and Democrats  today - I'll stick with the Imam. There are areas of overlap that we can work together on, and other religious groups that we can work with, but we have to draw the line on what is wrong by consensus.

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On 3/9/2017 at 1:06 AM, Irfani313 said:

So we all said a lot, are there any solutions, courses of action, general ways of involvement that one could muster here? 

Asslaamu alaykum brother,

Solution is for us to get into the alternative media and promote our worldview and way of life. I wrote about this in my article Why We Don't Need More Muslims in "the Media". This means arguing and fighting against:
 

  • Atheism
  • Secularism
  • Free Market Capitalism
  • Feminism
  • Marxism
  • Modernism
  • Post-Modernism
  • Rationalism
  • Skepticism
  • Anti-Family values
  • etc.

It also means promoting goodness, faith, the fitra, tradition, family, etc. We most importantly need to promote spirituality and a connection with Allah which is the solution to all personal problems and the path to happiness. People are not happy in the modern world. We need an online presence. We need to promote our own worldview.

This is at least part of the solution. The main solution is to act on the Quran and hang fast to the Wilayah of the Twelfth Imam and leave our affairs to Allah.

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8 hours ago, reisiger said:

pious bloody law clerks... no heart... no compassion... I'm out.

Brother compassion must be coupled with firmness against the kuffar. Let's discuss our ideas instead of name calling. Peace my dear brother.

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On 3/8/2017 at 5:30 PM, Qa'im said:

 Even Muslim intellectuals like Seyyed Hossein Nasr are promoting a Schuon-esque perennialism that marginalizes Muhammadan law and ethics.

I would strongly disagree with this one, broham.

Mr. Nasr has made some strange comments regarding for example, the aqaid of Christians (that Jesus was not God incarnate but that somehow it was meant for people to perceive him that way?), but I don't think that really indicates the core of his belief.

Just look at it this way: if he was so laissez-faire when it comes to Muhammadan law and ethics, why do all of the European intellectuals he associates with, convert to Islam? If what you say is true, his influence should not cause that.

Or for example, why during a conference, he excuses himself to go pray salaat. (It wouldn't have been qadha, either, he just does so to pray on time). He just doesn't smell like the type that takes sharia lightly. His books on Islam do not reflect this, either.

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13 hours ago, notme said:

You don't have to support a person's actions and lifestyle to work to prevent oppression of them. No human being should be oppressed.

I support gay "marriage" not because I believe in gay marriage, but because I believe marriage is none of the secular government's business. They have no right to force any religious group to recognize any marriage, nor do they have a right to prevent any religious group from recognizing any marriage. The purpose of government is to prevent the powerful from abusing the weak. As long as nobody is being forced into it, marriage is none of their concern (in a secular country). 

We Muslims are less than 2% of the population in the United States. We need allies. We can tell them that we believe their ways are sinful, but we shouldn't let any other group be abused. We should be known as people of justice an AND conviction. 

That's called being "against" sin but okay with it being rampant. By opposing gay marriage, one is not promoting oppression! What the heck! So opposing the legal acceptance of immoral and unnatural behaviour is now the equivalence of supporting oppression?

You don't know Allah told us to disassociate from sin? By politically allying ourselves with homosexuals, is that disassociating one's self from sinful behaviour or not?

Should Muslims ally themselves with pro-alchohol drinking lobbies and pro-gambling lobbies and pro-incest lobbies and pro-adultery lobbies and pro-drug lobbies? Is that what Muslims should do??? Does that sound like behaviour that Allah would condone?

What do you think a lobby does? It attempts to influence a government to promote its worldview. So the Muslim worldview should be pro-homosexuality? Really? Why shouldn't a Muslim lobby promote Muslim values? (Even if it means social conservatism).

You don't think it is in the INTEREST of the Muslims for sin to be banned everywhere, and we should do our best to stop sin? Even if that means a "no" vote in a referendum?

And about secularism, do you believe secular Middle Eastern states, say Syria, should legalise homosexuality and gay marriage? You don't think every single aalim in the face of the Earth would oppose the legalisation of homosexuality in the name of secularism and would call to ban it? You don't think that 99.9% of those people living in Syria would be FURIOUS at such a decision?

Edited by E.L King

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@E.L King

Maybe it would be more accurate to say I don't consider other people's  marriages my concern, so long as nobody is being oppressed. I certainly don't advocate sin! The fact is, though, they're sinning with or without "marriage". If their religion allows it, so be it. 

I'm not Syrian, so I have no opinion on what Syrian laws should be passed. Let them decide. Any government exists for their own people, and they have a right to run things as they please.  

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On 3/9/2017 at 8:06 AM, notme said:

You don't have to support a person's actions and lifestyle to work to prevent oppression of them. No human being should be oppressed.

I support gay "marriage" not because I believe in gay marriage, but because I believe marriage is none of the secular government's business. They have no right to force any religious group to recognize any marriage, nor do they have a right to prevent any religious group from recognizing any marriage. The purpose of government is to prevent the powerful from abusing the weak. As long as nobody is being forced into it, marriage is none of their concern (in a secular country). 

We Muslims are less than 2% of the population in the United States. We need allies. We can tell them that we believe their ways are sinful, but we shouldn't let any other group be abused. We should be known as people of justice an AND conviction. 

My sentiments are similar to yours.

While I don't agree with homosexuality, at the same time I don't think it is the government or judicial systems position to approve/disapprove of a lifestyle.

If they can permit gay marriage today, they can forbid Islamic marriage tomorrow.

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Forget about the debate on what governments can / can not, should / should not do.

As far as aligning with Gays, HomoS, Nudists, as long as they are oppressed, we should support them as our fellow human brethren.

As far as agreeing or even not making an argument against their devious practices - We Muslims should (MUST) be resolute and firm in speaking up against their practices, against the culture it promotes, and against the forces (media and such) which put confused or weak humans in such situations where they see unnatural behavior as natural. 

The moment a Muslim quits doing Amr bil Maroof and Nahi Anil Munkar, the Muslim does not remain a Muslim in the essence of true Islam. Imam Ali AS calls the 'silent nation' the trash. We must not be trash. Take the 'thou should not judge" out of your dictionary. 

It truly is not very hard to keep both of our religious duties, Amr bil Maroof and also of supporting the oppressed. 

Also a food for thought, why we Muslims not align ourselves with religious Christian (right minded Republicans in the states)? We have more in common with them than the atheist Left. 

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On 3/10/2017 at 4:08 PM, Irfani313 said:

Also a food for thought, why we Muslims not align ourselves with religious Christian (right minded Republicans in the states)? We have more in common with them than the atheist Left. 

Depends on the group. Are you good enough to assess them? Could work out, but....

There are plenty of religious Christians who are not right-wing or Republican.

As to why not ally with such a group ?

Many of the ones answering your description have an extreme dislike for Muslims.

Some moderate mainline Protestants hereabouts  once formed an alliance with some of that ilk on a few issues. ( Catholics hereabouts fortunately knew better.)

They believe their interpretation of Christianity  is the only one and they immediately started poaching the Presbyterian,Methodist, etc. kids to their fundie church ...because of which they became a torment to their parents and families.

I had tried to warn some of the parishioners of the other congregations of local Christians who  were friends of mine to give these kinds of " Christians" a wide berth. Some  didn't listen. Many of the ones that did have since thanked me.

still, we didn't escape completely unscathed.

It got ugly when the " saved" youth formed a posse at the local public high school ( very probably at the urging of the adults in said fundie right-wing church)  and started literally  dragging other kids ( including two of my own god-children) into an empty classroom to  be berated for their "errant" beliefs and "be saved". The ones they attacked were other Christian kids they'd known all their life. Can't imagine what they'd have done to Muslims. Anyway,after my godchildren emailed their parents and me that they had been accosted " by a cult" and forced to defend themselves,  I then had to join the phalanx of parents that went up there to alert  the school administration and put a stop to that nonsense. 

so...let me know how that kind of thing works out for you.

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On March 9, 2017 at 4:31 AM, reisiger said:

pious bloody law clerks... no heart... no compassion... I'm out. 

I'm actually a bit baffled by anyone on ShiaChat quoting a convicted ( supposedly " Wahabi" )terrorist. Wonder if old Randall ( that's what his daddy called him whilst he was still an over-privileged punk-rocker in Missouri...thought I recognized that name...one of the perks of being older than dirt)  is still enjoying his 20 year government vacation. Nice to be able to plea-bargain down from possible life...very likely ( reading between the lines) by giving up a bunch of other people we can only hope are actually guilty of something. You have to admit, besides organizing a considered terrorist group, cruising around just outside the National Capital City with an AK and 200 rounds of heat is a bit gutsy...or stupid. And then to have the nerve to complain about BLM. What a joke.

They are letting him blog? Must be nice to be white ,still healthy, and in prison in the " godless" West. Sucking up the tax dollars of, among other folks, hard working gay people.

smh

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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On 3/10/2017 at 4:08 PM, Irfani313 said:

Forget about the debate on what governments can / can not, should / should not do.

As far as aligning with Gays, HomoS, Nudists, as long as they are oppressed, we should support them as our fellow human brethren.

As far as agreeing or even not making an argument against their devious practices - We Muslims should (MUST) be resolute and firm in speaking up against their practices, against the culture it promotes, and against the forces (media and such) which put confused or weak humans in such situations where they see unnatural behavior as natural. 

The moment a Muslim quits doing Amr bil Maroof and Nahi Anil Munkar, the Muslim does not remain a Muslim in the essence of true Islam. Imam Ali AS calls the 'silent nation' the trash. We must not be trash. Take the 'thou should not judge" out of your dictionary. 

It truly is not very hard to keep both of our religious duties, Amr bil Maroof and also of supporting the oppressed. 

Also a food for thought, why we Muslims not align ourselves with religious Christian (right minded Republicans in the states)? We have more in common with them than the atheist Left. 

Gays, homos, and nudists are not oppressed in western societies. It's been 30 years or more since they have been moulding trends, fashions, ideas in the mainstream media and everyday life. They got access to a divinely appointed act like marriage -please go back and read how many times Allah speaks of MALE and FEMALE in the Quran if that can help- and destroyed the sanctity of paternity and maternity by getting the right to adopt -or conceive- babies

People assimilating this to some 2000s Karbala is a blasphemy if you ask me.

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I think many people have already selected sides. I see this divide even among Muslims. I cannot decide which side is lesser evil. The alt. right movement shows a lot of nazi like thinking. This thinking that all the people who are not beneficial must die is very dangerous. The nazis didn't just persecute gays and Jews, they persecuted old people, disabled, alcoholics, beggars, even priests. Homosexuality is worse than torturing so many groups of people? Who can say that this behavior will remain limited to verbal abuse? If this behavior is encouraged, it can easily lead to killing people. 

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On 9 March 2017 at 7:55 PM, Qa'im said:

The Quran speaks of a community that violated the Sabbath. That community comprised of three types of people: (1) the violators, (2) those who spoke out against the violation, (3) those who wanted to leave the violators alone.

The problem with the "I don't believe in gay marriage but I support it politically" line of argumentation is that it assumes our law against gay marriage is just some ritual or legal technicality, when the Quran and hadith considered it deeply immoral. Sunnis have some excuse here, because there is much less legal precedent against homosexuality in Sunni tradition than there is in Shii tradition. But the Ahl al-Bayt spoke in very clear terms and I simply can't put that aside because "we need allies". Our ally is Allah, with whom anything is overpowered and without whom nothing can take place. If an alliance with the gay lobby means that we have to promote gender fluidity and gay marriage to third graders (this is in my province's official education system), or that I have to be muzzled and start a media circus because I don't want to use gender-neutral pronouns like "xe" instead of he or she (like in many universities now), then it's an alliance I can do without. I simply cannot imagine Lady Fatima (as) wearing a pink genital hat, or an American flag hijab, or rally against nuclear families, or taking part in so much of what's going on. She would call it what it is, social decadence.

There are proven negative affects on children that grow up in a fatherless home or a motherless home - they are more likely to be affected by poverty, crime, academic failure, unstable relationships, and mental health issues. Not to mention the sale of body parts of aborted embryos. It is deeply immoral to facilitate these things. The Ahl al-Bayt refrained from supporting Umayyads and Abbasids, the former was ardently against them, and the latter was sneakily against them; much like the Republicans and Democrats  today - I'll stick with the Imam. There are areas of overlap that we can work together on, and other religious groups that we can work with, but we have to draw the line on what is wrong by consensus.

You go brother! Stand firm. There is a quote in the Quran where Allah says "do not fear them. Fear me, and only me" (something along these lines). 

i have lived all my life in the UK, and I feel like crying when I think of the situation of most Muslims here in the west (how stupid they are and how they seem to think). 

Your posts are perfect, you speak the truth. Never back down, including to these so called "pink" Muslims who want to hold hands and become allies with the gays. 

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On 3/10/2017 at 4:08 PM, Irfani313 said:

Forget about the debate on what governments can / can not, should / should not do.

As far as aligning with Gays, HomoS, Nudists, as long as they are oppressed, we should support them as our fellow human brethren.

As far as agreeing or even not making an argument against their devious practices - We Muslims should (MUST) be resolute and firm in speaking up against their practices, against the culture it promotes, and against the forces (media and such) which put confused or weak humans in such situations where they see unnatural behavior as natural. 

The moment a Muslim quits doing Amr bil Maroof and Nahi Anil Munkar, the Muslim does not remain a Muslim in the essence of true Islam. Imam Ali AS calls the 'silent nation' the trash. We must not be trash. Take the 'thou should not judge" out of your dictionary. 

It truly is not very hard to keep both of our religious duties, Amr bil Maroof and also of supporting the oppressed. 

Also a food for thought, why we Muslims not align ourselves with religious Christian (right minded Republicans in the states)? We have more in common with them than the atheist Left. 

What you say contradicts itself and here is why. 

You say we should support them, then you say as Muslims we are supposed to speak out against sin. 

You say we should support them because they are being oppressed. Okay. How are they being oppressed? They are being oppressed because they don't have full rights, and people say what they do is "Inhumane and bad". 

You want to do "Amr bil Maroof and Nahi Anil Munkar". Okay. So here you will be saying they are sinners, and they are wrong. 

..... So.... You are now oppressing them. 

I think you need to sit down, and do some deep long hard thinking about this. 

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It is not oppressive to tell someone that their actions are sinful.

It is oppressive to deny them the same rights as others: to become educated, to work, to use their money to buy things, to enjoy life without harassment, to recieve help when in need, and to practice their beliefs or lack of beliefs as they see fit, for example.

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6 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Our responsibility is to be the civilized alternative that is juxtaposed to this fickle adolescent behavior. Speak eloquently, dress modestly, act chivalrously, assist the oppressed and impoverished, promote traditional art and architecture, and resist the individualism and hedonism in society rather than letting it take us over.

Thank you.

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13 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

If you are a true Muslim you should live in a Muslim country  ...

Living in the land of mushriks you can do all the prostrations you want but it's useless 

Many of us are not "economic migrants" and can't exactly "go back" for various reasons. Don't you live in the U.S?

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On 3/13/2017 at 0:21 PM, Qa'im said:

Many of us are not "economic migrants" and can't exactly "go back" for various reasons. Don't you live in the U.S?

Ofcourse I do but I realize that's not the way it should be, I fully admit I'm a hypocrite in that sense 

It's highly regrettable that we have to seek  refuge in other countries due to persecution in our own.

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