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Fatma Nur

Issues with Imamate

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Assalamu aleykum everyone :)

I'm a lurker on here. I've been reading others posts but this is my first one.

I'm sooooo confused! I genuinely don't know which way is correct.

I'm a convert of 10 yrs (converted age 18 having been brought up agnostic). I'm married to a Turkish Sunni (Ashari-Hanafi, not at all wahabi thank God!), although he is not too practicing.
We have 2 babies and I really want to bring them up correctly.

When it comes to fiqh I follow the Jafari madhab cause (of the little I know) it makes sense to me. 
An example being how wudhu in the Jafari madhab is the same as wudhu in the Quran.

But when it comes to aqeedah I genuinely don't know! 
I can accept that the prophets are infallible, that we are in the time awaiting  Al Mahdi, I believe in intercession and I don't think Ziyarat or celebrating Mawlid is bidah or shirk!

Logically I know that loving the prophet (saws) means loving his family (pbut) and that this is in the Quran too. I accept that Imam Ali (AS) should have been the leader of the ummah because of Ghadir Khum and the things I've learnt about the 1st three caliphs. Although I don't feel comfortable cursing anyone. I prefer to say  Allahu alem although I haven't been saying RAA after their names anymore.
I was shocked to learn about Karbala and when I told my husband about it he cried. How could ahlul bayt of been treated this way?!! 

The part I'm stuck on is accepting Imamah. It's the final step I know but something's bugging me... 
The main thing at the moment is that if the names of the 12 leaders were known then how did the Shia of Ali split into different sects? Like why didn't people just say to the Zaidi's 'no, Zaid ibn Ali cannot be the next imam because we know the names & number & order of the imams through oral tradition and the next Imam is...'
Why didn't the same happen with the Ismailis as well?

I can see how sects like Alevis exist as their faith seems to be a mix of 12er Shia Islam, Sufism and maybe some other stuff but the above point is really bothering me.

Can anyone help me get over this point? Has anyone here been where I am and can offer some advice? 

I have some other issues with Imamate too but this is the big one at the moment. I want to know the truth for my own sake and for that of my family too. I don't feel like my faith is complete in anyway at the moment as I'm sure most Sunnis wouldn't accept my faith as correct as follow the Jafari madhab. And true Shias must believe in Imamate so I don't fit in there either.

Please help!

Fatma Nur

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1 hour ago, Fatma Nur said:

When it comes to fiqh I follow the Jafari madhab cause (of the little I know) it makes sense to me. 
An example being how wudhu in the Jafari madhab is the same as wudhu in the Quran.

That their wudhu is correct to you why should you be obliged to follow them in all matters?

Islam is not about accepting blindly but about reason and conviction.

You can agree on one thing and disagree on another when it doesn't makes sense to you.

Edited by Faruk

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Salam sister,

You know what?

What you should learn (just an advice) is to back all ypur beliefs with reason and proofs.

So when they ask you something you crush them with the proofs so that they keep their mouth shut.

I did the same thing with my sunni collegues and it worked. They actually fear me when it comes to such discussions.

Re-search, re-search and again re-search.

Edited by Faruk

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5 hours ago, Fatma Nur said:

The part I'm stuck on is accepting Imamah. It's the final step I know but something's bugging me... 
The main thing at the moment is that if the names of the 12 leaders were known then how did the Shia of Ali split into different sects? Like why didn't people just say to the Zaidi's 'no, Zaid ibn Ali cannot be the next imam because we know the names & number & order of the imams through oral tradition and the next Imam is...'
Why didn't the same happen with the Ismailis as well?

Salaam sister, 

You admitted that you believe Imam Ali (a.s.) because of Ghadeer e Khum. However people after listening to Prophet (pbuh&hp) 100 times before and after the event of Ghadeer that Ali is the caliph and Imam over Muslims after him, still chose a fallible and not Imam Ali (a.s.). 

Similarly, inspite of listening prophetic traditions about 12 Imams with their names and titles, people in different era chose different people as their Imam and were deviated. 

Atleast we know both the cases so we should held onto the Hujjah and Imam of our time as well as have faith (Aqeedah) in previous Imam (ams). 

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23 minutes ago, Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) said:

Salaam sister, 

You admitted that you believe Imam Ali (a.s.) because of Ghadeer e Khum. However people after listening to Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå 100 times before and after the event of Ghadeer that Ali is the caliph and Imam over Muslims after him, still chose a fallible and not Imam Ali (a.s.). 

Similarly, inspite of listening prophetic traditions about 12 Imams with their names and titles, people in different era chose different people as their Imam and were deviated. 

Atleast we know both the cases so we should held onto the Hujjah and Imam of our time as well as have faith (Aqeedah) in previous Imam (ams). 

Salam brother,

I think the issue most non-Twelvers have with this hadith is that it is as I just said a hadith.

If it was in the Quran there would actually be no issue and the only ones infallible after Rasulullah s.a.w.a.s. were Imam Ali, Bibi Fatima, Hasan and Husayn alayhum Salaam.

 

Edited by Faruk

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

Salam brother,

I think the issue most non-Twelvers have with this hadith is that it is as I just said a hadith.

If it was in the Quran there would actually be no issue
 

Alaikas Salaam brother, 

Quran is the book that mentions general percepts and not the detailed rulings for anything in a clear manner. To all those non-shia who would hesitate to take things which are not clear in Quran, I ask how did you got the method of prayers, rules for fasting, arkan e Hajj, etc. Answer: Hadith. 

Holy Prophet (pbuh&hp) and Aimma (ams) clarified all the thing which weren't present in detail in Quran. Same stands for Successors of our last Prophet (pbuh&hp)

1 hour ago, Faruk said:

the only ones infallible after Rasulullah s.a.w.a.s. were Imam Ali, Bibi Fatima, Hasan and Husayn alayhum Salaam.

We have total 14 Infallibles. Holy Prophet (pbuh&hp), Janabe Fatema Zahra (s.a.) and 12 Aimma (ams). 

 

Edited by Lover of Ahlulbait (ams)
(sawa) appearing as alien language.

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26 minutes ago, Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) said:

Alaikas Salaam brother, 

Quran is the book that mentions general percepts and not the detailed rulings for anything in a clear manner. To all those non-shia who would hesitate to take things which are not clear in Quran, I ask how did you got the method of prayers, rules for fasting, arkan e Hajj, etc. Answer: Hadith. 

 

Yes but not all ahaadith are reliable. We by the way do not only take from ahaadith when it comes to such cases but also from living traditions that were passed on from the early muslims.

If we are sceptical towards sunni ahaadith could not the same be done towards shia ahaadith?
 

Quote

Holy Prophet (pbuh&hp) and Aimma (ams) clarified all the thing which weren't present in detail in Quran. Same stands for Successors of our last Prophet (pbuh&hp)

Brother,

In the Bible a lot of so-called prophecies were only added or edited after the events happened.

Why couldn't this be the case with ahaadith?

It's too obscure. The Prophet of Allah s.a.w.a.s. would never hide such knowledge as it was in the interest of the Ummah.

 

Quote

We have total 14 Infallibles. Holy Prophet (pbuh&hp), Janabe Fatema Zahra (s.a.) and 12 Aimma (ams). 

Only Allah can decide someone to be infallible or not and He did with the Ahl al-Kisa but after that there was noone who could confirm the infallibility of the other ones.

The only thing for Imamate to continue is to know what the credentials should be and set up some requirements. If the Imam rules accordingly these rules he is the imam.

Edited by Faruk

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7 hours ago, Fatma Nur said:

if the names of the 12 leaders were known then how did the Shia of Ali split into different sects? 

Sister, this is a historical question. You need to study the history of how the various sects came into being and how and why they split.

7 hours ago, Fatma Nur said:

Like why didn't people just say to the Zaidi's 'no, Zaid ibn Ali cannot be the next imam because we know the names & number & order of the imams through oral tradition and the next Imam is...'

How do you know that they didn't say? It is always possible that they did but the Zaidis did not accept that hadith.

7 hours ago, Fatma Nur said:

Why didn't the same happen with the Ismailis as well?

Again, that question can also be answered by proper books of history. 

Not by untested respondents in the Internet.  

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4 hours ago, Faruk said:

Only Allah can decide someone to be infallible or not and He did with the Ahl al-Kisa but after that there was noone who could confirm the infallibility of the other ones.

Salam brother

Where does Allah or the Prophet say only the ahl al-kisa is infallible? 

Edited by Hassan Y

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5 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

Salam brother

Where does Allah or the Prophet say only the ahl al-kisa is infallible? 

That's not what I stated.

I stated that after the demise of Rasulullah s.a.w.a.s. there was no one to confirm or tell who was infallible or not.

So what's your proof?

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6 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

Salam brother

Where does Allah or the Prophet say only the ahl al-kisa is infallible? 

That's not what I stated.

I stated that after the demise of Rasulullah s.a.w.a.s. there was no one to confirm or tell who was infallible or who is the Imam.

So what's your proof?

Edited by Faruk

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W Salam

Knowing the name of all future Imams had not been a component of faith for all Shia, yes the close circle of companions knew it (especially for later Imams) but you can't say those laity of Shia who died without knowing the names of future Imams, died as non-Shia, no. It was enough to know the Imam of your time and it continuity back to the Holy Prophet (s).

Plus, knowing the next Imam wouldn't necessarily mean accepting him, like the case of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

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W Salam

Knowing the name of all future Imams had not been a component of faith for all Shia, yes the close circle of companions knew it (especially for later Imams) but you can't say those laity of Shia who died without knowing the names of future Imams, died as non-Shia, no. It was enough to know the Imam of your time and it continuity back to the Holy Prophet (s).

Plus, knowing the next Imam wouldn't necessarily mean accepting him, like the case of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

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W Salam

Knowing the name of all future Imams had not been a component of faith for all Shia, yes the close circle of companions knew it (as a secret) (especially for later Imams) but you can't say those laity of Shia who died without knowing the names of future Imams, died as non-Shia, no. It was enough to know the Imam of your time and it continuity back to the Holy Prophet (s).

Plus, knowing the next Imam wouldn't necessarily mean accepting him, like the case of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

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5 minutes ago, mesbah said:

W Salam

Knowing the name of all future Imams had not been a component of faith for all Shia, yes the close circle of companions knew it (as a secret) (especially for later Imams) but you can't say those laity of Shia who died without knowing the names of future Imams, died as non-Shia, no. It was enough to know the Imam of your time and it continuity back to the Holy Prophet (s).

Plus, knowing the next Imam wouldn't necessarily mean accepting him, like the case of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

Salam,

What is problematic to me is the suggestion that Islam was meant to be a sort of underground movement which is actually not backed by the Holy Quran.

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

That's not what I stated.

I stated that after the demise of Rasulullah s.a.w.a.s. there was no one to confirm or tell who was infallible or who is the Imam.

Your post seemed like you did, maybe I misunderstood it. 

I don't get what you mean by no one can confirm who was infallible after the death of the Prophet. Are you saying even Imam Ali (as) himself couldn't confirm his own or his 2 son's own infallibility? 

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2 hours ago, Faruk said:

Salam,

What is problematic to me is the suggestion that Islam was meant to be a sort of underground movement which is actually not backed by the Holy Quran.

Well, at the beginning it (Islam) was, (for at least three years)

And yes, you are right; none of necessary components of faith in Islam or Shia is esoteric; that's why I stressed knowing the names of future Imams was not a necessary component of faith, it was some extra knowledge some people had.

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Thank you for the replies. :)

I understand the point that even if the names were known then ppl may not have believed the Hadith or may have chosen not to listen to it. I can see that this is a possibility.

However another point I'm struggling with (after a bit of further reading) is that apparently Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (AS) himself named his elder son Ismail as his successor but then Ismail passed away before him. So if even the Imam of that time didn't know of the Hadith relating the names of the twelve imams I am still concerned that this Hadith may have been fabricated at a later date. How do others see this?

I am also a bit confused about how things work under the current Imam - Al Mahdi (may Allah hasten His return). Is it the belief of 12ers that he inspires current scholars (Ayatollahs?) in their interpretation of fiqh and answering the questions of his followers? When I first looked into the topic of Imamah my understanding was that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì gives people of each time an Imam as a mercy so that we are not misguided but since Imam Al Mahdi is said to be in greater occultation then how does this work in the present time?

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12 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

Salam sister, if you want to understand the proof of imamat in great detail, read this post below:

 

Thank you for the link brother I read it all and I agree with it all and that Imam Ali (AS) was the rightful successor to the prophet. I believer in Imam Ali's (AS) leadership as an imam and also in following Imam Hassan (AS) and Imam Huseyin (AS) as this seems logical. It is the line of leadership after Karbala that I'm not convinced of. And I don't know how to know which way is right IYSWIM.

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4 hours ago, Fatma Nur said:

However another point I'm struggling with (after a bit of further reading) is that apparently Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (AS) himself named his elder son Ismail as his successor but then Ismail passed away before him. So if even the Imam of that time didn't know of the Hadith relating the names of the twelve imams I am still concerned that this Hadith may have been fabricated at a later date. How do others see this?

One answer to this is Bada', change of divine plan. The parallel of abrogation, abrogation happens in Tashri' and Bada happens in Takwin.

Another answer is the fact the Imams would use their access to 'ilm a-ghayb (the knowledge of unseen or future) in every single occasion of their lives (like the way the Prophet s wouldn't) the Imam of that knew about that Hadith, but he had the obligation to announce Isma'il as the successor for whatever reason he knew better.

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5 hours ago, Fatma Nur said:

Thank you for the link brother I read it all and I agree with it all and that Imam Ali (AS) was the rightful successor to the prophet. I believer in Imam Ali's (AS) leadership as an imam and also in following Imam Hassan (AS) and Imam Huseyin (AS) as this seems logical. It is the line of leadership after Karbala that I'm not convinced of. And I don't know how to know which way is right IYSWIM.

You are unsure about having 12 imams?

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3 hours ago, mesbah said:

One answer to this is Bada', change of divine plan. The parallel of abrogation, abrogation happens in Tashri' and Bada happens in Takwin.

Another answer is the fact the Imams would use their access to 'ilm a-ghayb (the knowledge of unseen or future) in every single occasion of their lives (like the way the Prophet s wouldn't) the Imam of that knew about that Hadith, but he had the obligation to announce Isma'il as the successor for whatever reason he knew better.

After posting this, I did some research and realized that there's no explicit Nass about Isma'il in Shia tradition. Yes, there might have been such expectation among some Shia, but there's no Nass by Imam al-Sadiq a; Isma'ilis, understandably, fabricated reports about Nass of Isma'il, while in Shia there are actually negative reports about him, sl-Shaykh al-Mufid writes:

Quote

الشبهة الثانية حول نص الإمام الصادق ع لابنه إسماعيل و البداء فيه ]

(اعتراض آخر للزيدية) قالت الزيدية:

«ومما تكذب به دعوي الإمامية إنهم زعموا أن جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام نص لهم علي إسماعيل وأشار إليه في حياته ثم إن إسماعيل مات في حياته فَقَالَ: مَا بَدَا لِلَّهِ فِي شَيْ ءٍ كَمَا بَدَا لَهُ فِي إِسْمَاعِيلَ ابْنِي» فإن كان الخبر الاثنا عشر صحيحا فكان لا أقل من أن يعرفه جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام ويعرف خواص شيعته لئلا يغلط هو وهم هذا الغلط العظيم».

فقلنا لهم: بم قلتم؟ إن جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام نص علي إسماعيل بالإمامة؟ وما ذلك الخبر؟ ومن رواه؟ ومن تلقاه بالقبول؟ فلم يجدوا إلي ذلك سبيلا وإنما هذه حكاية ولدها قوم قالوا بإمامة إسماعيل ليس لها أصل لأن الخبر بذكر الأئمة الاثني عشر عليهم السلام قد رواه الخاص والعام عن النبي صلي الله عليه وآله والأئمة عليهم السلام وقد أخرجت ما روي عنهم في ذلك في هذا الكتاب.

فأما قَوْلُهُ: «مَا بَدَا لِلَّهِ فِي شَيْ ءٍ كَمَا بَدَا لَهُ فِي إِسْمَاعِيلَ ابْنِي » فإنه يقول ما ظهر لله أمر كما ظهر له في إسماعيل ابني إذ اخترمه في حياتي ليعلم بذلك أنه ليس بإمام بعدي وعندنا من زعم أن الله عز وجل يبدو له اليوم في شي ء لم يعلمه أمس فهو كافر والبراءة منه واجبة كما روي عن الصادق عليه السلام:

حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ يَحْيَي الْعَطَّارِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ يَحْيَي بْنِ عِمْرَانَ الْأَشْعَرِيِّ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الرَّازِيُّ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ اللُّؤْلُؤِيِّ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ وَسَمَاعَةَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الصَّادِقِ عليه السلام قَالَ:

«مَنْ زَعَمَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَبْدُو لَهُ فِي شَيْ ءٍ الْيَوْمَ لَمْ يَعْلَمْهُ أَمْسِ فَابْرَءُوا مِنْهُ ».

و إنما البداء الذي ينسب إلي الإمامية القول به هو ظهور أمره يقول العرب بدا لي شخص أي ظهر لي لا بداء ندامة تعالي الله عن ذلك علوا كبيرا. وكيف ينص الصادق عليه السلام علي إسماعيل بالإمامة مع قَوْلِهِ فِيهِ إِنَّهُ عَاصٍ لَا يُشْبِهُنِي وَلَا يُشْبِهُ أَحَداً مِنْ آبَائِي ؟

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مُوسَي بْنِ الْمُتَوَكِّلِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَي الْعَطَّارُ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ يَحْيَي بْنِ عِمْرَانَ الْأَشْعَرِيِّ عَنْ يَعْقُوبَ بْنِ يَزِيدَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ رَاشِدٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عليه السلام عَنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ فَقَالَ: «عَاصٍ لَا يُشْبِهُنِي وَ لَا يُشْبِهُ أَحَداً مِنْ آبَائِي »

حَدَّثَنَا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ إِدْرِيسَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَحْمَدَ عَنْ يَعْقُوبَ بْنِ يَزِيدَ وَ الْبَرْقِيِّ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي نَصْرٍ عَنْ حَمَّادٍ عَنْ عُبَيْدِ بْنِ زُرَارَةَ قَالَ ذَكَرْتُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ عِنْدَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عليه السلام فَقَالَ: «وَاللَّهِ لَا يُشْبِهُنِي وَلَا يُشْبِهُ أَحَداً مِنْ آبَائِي .

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ الْوَلِيدِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا سَعْدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْجَبَّارِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي نَجْرَانَ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ الْمُخْتَارِ عَنِ الْوَلِيدِ بْنِ صَبِيحٍ قَالَ جَاءَنِي رَجُلٌ فَقَالَ لِي تَعَالَ حَتَّي أُرِيَكَ ابْنَ الرَّجُلِ قَالَ فَذَهَبْتُ مَعَهُ قَالَ فَجَاءَ بِي إِلَي قَوْمٍ يَشْرَبُونَ فِيهِمْ إِسْمَاعِيلُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ قَالَ فَخَرَجْتُ مَغْمُوماً فَجِئْتُ إِلَي الْحَجَرِ فَإِذَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ مُتَعَلِّقٌ بِالْبَيْتِ يَبْكِي قَدْ بَلَّ أَسْتَارَ الْكَعْبَةِ بِدُمُوعِهِ قَالَ فَخَرَجْتُ أَشْتَدُّ فَإِذَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ جَالِسٌ مَعَ الْقَوْمِ فَرَجَعْتُ فَإِذَا هُوَ آخِذٌ بِأَسْتَارِ الْكَعْبَةِ قَدْ بَلَّهَا بِدُمُوعِهِ قَالَ فَذَكَرْتُ ذَلِكَ لِأَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عليه لاسلام فَقَالَ: «لَقَدِ ابْتُلِيَ ابْنِي بِشَيْطَانٍ يَتَمَثَّلُ فِي صُورَتِهِ » وَ قَدْ رُوِيَ أَنَّ الشَّيْطَانَ لَا يَتَمَثَّلُ فِي صُورَةِ نَبِيٍّ وَ لَا فِي صُورَةِ وَصِيِّ نَبِيٍ

فكيف يجوز أن ينص عليه بالإمامة مع صحة هذا القول منه فيه.

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13 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

Your post seemed like you did, maybe I misunderstood it. 

I don't get what you mean by no one can confirm who was infallible after the death of the Prophet. Are you saying even Imam Ali (as) himself couldn't confirm his own or his 2 son's own infallibility? 

No my brother,

The infalibillity of Imam Hasan and Husayn a.s. was confirmed by Allah Himself with Quran verse 33:33.

Edited by Faruk

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4 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

You are unsure about having 12 imams?

I'm unsure about almost everything to do with Imamate!

I believe in the other tenets of Shia islam; the infallibility of the Prophets (pbut), divine justice, loving ahlul bayt...

The only other thing I think I struggle with is Tabarra. Does it mean we must curse those we perceive as enemies to Ahlul bayt or can we just distance ourselves and say Allahu Alem?

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1 hour ago, mesbah said:

After posting this, I did some research and realized that there's no explicit Nass about Isma'il in Shia tradition. Yes, there might have been such expectation among some Shia, but there's no Nass by Imam al-Sadiq a; Isma'ilis, understandably, fabricated reports about Nass of Isma'il, while in Shia there are actually negative reports about him, sl-Shaykh al-Mufid writes:

Sorry, this may be a silly question but just to ensure I understand your post correctly...

Does this mean that 12ers don't believe that Imam al-Sadiq appointed Ismail first and that this report is fabricated?

Or am I misunderstanding you?

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

No my brother,

The infalibillity of Imam Hasan and Husayn a.s. was confirmed by Allah Himself with Quran verse 33:33.

^Yes, this is my current understanding of things with regards to the infallibles

I can believe that Lady Fatima, Imam Ali, Imam Hasan & Imam Hussain (pbut) were infallible because of verse 33:33 and the Hadith of the cloak but why only certain descendants of the Imams after them? 

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

No my brother,

The infalibillity of Imam Hasan and Husayn a.s. was confirmed by Allah Himself with Quran verse 33:33.

The verse also refers to the 12 imams, not just ahl al kisa.

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5 hours ago, Fatma Nur said:

Sorry, this may be a silly question but just to ensure I understand your post correctly...

Does this mean that 12ers don't believe that Imam al-Sadiq appointed Ismail first and that this report is fabricated?

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Yes, 12er Shia don't have report of Nass from Imam al-Sadiq about Isma'il.

http://www.islamquest.net/ar/archive/question/fa7838

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On ‎6‎-‎3‎-‎2017 at 11:09 PM, Hassan Y said:

The verse also refers to the 12 imams, not just ahl al kisa.

Wrong. The verse refers to the Hadith of the Cloak and there were only 5 under it. Not 14.

Edited by Faruk

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

Wrong. The verse refers to the Hadith of the Cloak and there were only 5 under it. Not 14.

The verse says the ahlulbayt, and the ahlulbayt of Muhammad are Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussein and his 9 decendants. Ahl al kisa are not the only members of the ahlulbayt.

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On 3/5/2017 at 10:21 AM, Fatma Nur said:

Assalamu aleykum everyone :)

I'm a lurker on here. I've been reading others posts but this is my first one.

I'm sooooo confused! I genuinely don't know which way is correct.

I'm a convert of 10 yrs (converted age 18 having been brought up agnostic). I'm married to a Turkish Sunni (Ashari-Hanafi, not at all wahabi thank God!), although he is not too practicing.
We have 2 babies and I really want to bring them up correctly.

When it comes to fiqh I follow the Jafari madhab cause (of the little I know) it makes sense to me. 
An example being how wudhu in the Jafari madhab is the same as wudhu in the Quran.

But when it comes to aqeedah I genuinely don't know! 
I can accept that the prophets are infallible, that we are in the time awaiting  Al Mahdi, I believe in intercession and I don't think Ziyarat or celebrating Mawlid is bidah or shirk!

Logically I know that loving the prophet (saws) means loving his family (pbut) and that this is in the Quran too. I accept that Imam Ali (AS) should have been the leader of the ummah because of Ghadir Khum and the things I've learnt about the 1st three caliphs. Although I don't feel comfortable cursing anyone. I prefer to say  Allahu alem although I haven't been saying RAA after their names anymore.
I was shocked to learn about Karbala and when I told my husband about it he cried. How could ahlul bayt of been treated this way?!! 

The part I'm stuck on is accepting Imamah. It's the final step I know but something's bugging me... 
The main thing at the moment is that if the names of the 12 leaders were known then how did the Shia of Ali split into different sects? Like why didn't people just say to the Zaidi's 'no, Zaid ibn Ali cannot be the next imam because we know the names & number & order of the imams through oral tradition and the next Imam is...'
Why didn't the same happen with the Ismailis as well?

I can see how sects like Alevis exist as their faith seems to be a mix of 12er Shia Islam, Sufism and maybe some other stuff but the above point is really bothering me.

Can anyone help me get over this point? Has anyone here been where I am and can offer some advice? 

I have some other issues with Imamate too but this is the big one at the moment. I want to know the truth for my own sake and for that of my family too. I don't feel like my faith is complete in anyway at the moment as I'm sure most Sunnis wouldn't accept my faith as correct as follow the Jafari madhab. And true Shias must believe in Imamate so I don't fit in there either.

Please help!

Fatma Nur

Jafari madhab  is acceptable for Sunnis. Fyi

Hanafi, Maliki were all students of imam Ja'far as Sadiq AS.

Edited by wmehar2

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22 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

The verse says the ahlulbayt, and the ahlulbayt of Muhammad are Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussein and his 9 decendants. Ahl al kisa are not the only members of the ahlulbayt.

The purification was only on the 5. Not on all their descendants. That's your own addition.

 

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