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In the Name of God بسم الله

Empathy for people who commit suicide?

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Mohamed1993

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1 minute ago, Mohamed1993 said:

How do psychiatrists actually diagnose the problem and determine if you need medication or a change in lifestyle etc.? I'm specifically talking about depression, not bipolar disorder or autism or any of the other neurological disorders.

A legitimate psychiatrist would never hand out medicine like candy, like the way your school psychiatrist did. They usually talk to the patient,  ask questions on how they are feeling, consult family history and after a few sessions, decide whether the appropriate treatment is a change of lifestyle or medicine. They have to listen for certain symptoms.

http://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/depression-diagnosis#2

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5 hours ago, notme said:

@E.L King It seems to me that everyone is in agreement that those who are mentally ill are not accountable for their actions which are a result of their illness. Agreed?

Probably the point others are trying to make to you is that you don't see mental illness. You can't tell who is ill to the point where they are not accountable for their choices. Yes, a sane person committing suicide is guilty of murder. But how can anyone tell who is sane? Suicide is an insane action. It's hard to assume the person was fully aware of and accountable for their action. 

No, not agreed. I just told you in Islamic Law people with mental illnesses can be punished for what they do. It all depends on whether it reaches the level of illness which the Shari'ah qualifies as insanity.

I just gave you examples of perfectly normal or near normal human beings who committed suicide. You think ISIS members are insane?

Unless the Imam in your belief is simply talking out of thin air when he is saying suicide = Hell, then that's your problem.

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6 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

It's not an excuse. I'm stating that anything that counts as an impairment to judgement will also be taken into consideration, you insensitive person. 

Do you even understand psychosis? Clearly you don't. It's a BREAK from REALITY. You HEAR things and SEE things that aren't THERE. 

That is insanity. Or do I need to spell it out for you?

Lol. You seem to think all people who commit suicide are mentally ill. False. 

Quote

The majority of individuals who commit suicide do not have a diagnosable mental illness. They are people just like you and I who at a particular time are feeling isolated, desperately unhappy and alone. Suicidal thoughts and actions may be the result of life’s stresses and losses that the individual feels they just can’t cope with.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/frequently-asked-questions-about-suicide/

Furthermore, there is a specific defintion of insanity in Islamic Law, like I stated. Having minor mental issues is not insanity in Islamic Law.

Some people get depressed because their girlfriend left them or something like that, and commit suicide. Imagine having that as an excuse on the Day of Judgement.

Edited by E.L King
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1 hour ago, reisiger said:

We may never know the reason a person chooses to do such a thing, but it is important to understand the difference between empathy and sympathy.  Sympathy is to feel compassion or sorrow or pity for another, but empathy is to be able to put yourself in their place.  Based on what I've read here, there are not many empathic people responding to this thread.

Maybe Allah (s w t) does not give us more than we can bear, but who are we to say "oh well I can't feel bad for that?"  Another human being ended their own life.  People should notice.  People should be upset.

To simply say "oh that's a sin; I don't feel sorry," well I can't see that ending well for the person who doesn't feel sorry. Auzubillah.

We have empathy for someone who committed a haram act because we too are flawed and imperfect beings, equally capable of doing haram acts, and indeed doing them regularly, because they too are sons or daughters of the children of Adam and if we do not take pity on those among Allah (s w t)'s creation who suffer, then why should we expect mercy from Allah on Qiyyamah?

All of this^ 

 

thank you for being the voice of reason. 

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^^King that's why I asked if there is a punishment for someone who attempts but fails according to sharia. If there have been cases in the past, the actual process of trial and figuring out the punishment if any and taking into account all circumstances, would help understand how to assess such cases.

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22 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Lol. You seem to think all people who commit suicide are mentally ill. False. 

Furthermore, there is a specific defintion of insanity in Islamic Law, like I stated. Having minor mental issues is not insanity in Islamic Law.

Some people get depressed because their girlfriend left them or something like that, and commit suicide. Imagine having that as an excuse on the Day of Judgement.

I'm not talking about people who commit suicide because their girlfriends left them. I'm talking about disorders that bring on the feelings of suicide. 

How dare you trivialize people's pain and suffering and refuse to recognize REAL MENTAL DISORDERS. (Which you failed to address.)

People who commit suicide, on a whole, are mentally ill. So your argument adds nothing except show your lack of understanding for how depression works.

that article was a perspective on suicide, not the reason if the person hasn't lived through it. It was merely a hypothesis.

Edited by Islandsandmirrors
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24 minutes ago, E.L King said:

No, not agreed. I just told you in Islamic Law people with mental illnesses can be punished for what they do. It all depends on whether it reaches the level of illness which the Shari'ah qualifies as insanity.

I just gave you examples of perfectly normal or near normal human beings who committed suicide. You think ISIS members are insane?

Unless the Imam in your belief is simply talking out of thin air when he is saying suicide = Hell, then that's your problem.

Psychosis =

  1. a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality.
     
     
     
     
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Guest silasun

@reisiger Muslims don't talk about mental health and it's really shameful.

And I agree about the overemphasis on fiqh.

How about akhlaaq? Akhlaaq - the science of spirituality - is of more importance than fiqh.

How about beliefs?

Last I checked, so many of us have a messed up belief system!

Fiqh is very important because it lays the basis of spiritual growth but to use it as an excuse to spout nonsense down the throat of believers who are going through a hard time is insane!

We need to follow fiqh because it's the path to success.

But that also applies to those arrogant holier than thou types.

One of the worst sins they commit is making people feel hopeless in Allah.

They hurt other people's feelings.

They have no verve and beauty in their faith.

Their religion is ugly and has no value.

And God knows very well what will happen on the day of judgement.

When they see that they were wasting their time.

Their arrogance made all their good deeds futile.

And the committers of major sins are better off than them.

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Guest silasun

To the OP

We should always feel empathy towards anybody who is a sinner.

As if to see we aren't.

Our hearts should be filled with love and mercy.

Wanting to pull them away from the destruction that they are causing themselves.

Arabia gave birth to a kind doctor.

No, a kind shepard.

He raised his cattle with his hands.

They fought back.

But he embraced each of them.

Wanting the best for his herd.

When one fell ill his heart broke.

Even when he fought his enemies he mourned on the inside.

"How could you do this to yourself?" he would exclaim.

A kind doctor, a kind shepard.

Only used his sword when he had to defend himself and his herd.

Like a mournful surgeon operating on a dying child.

Mourning, understanding.

Praying for his people.

And they say that the noble men are forgotten by their people.

But remembered by history.

And look today.

How many a minaret is climbed.

Whilst the rest of mankind is in slumber.

Yet the muezzin wakes up to call his name.

In the darkness of the night.

Each corner of the Earth has heard the name of this kind father.

That's the difference between us who don't have mercy.

And the shepard.

Whose name God has made obligatory to be celebrated in the four corners of the Earth.

That's the difference between us.

And the one whose celebration is a condition for the acceptance of your daily prayer.

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

I just gave you examples of perfectly normal or near normal human beings who committed suicide. You think ISIS members are insane?

Yes, I do, do you? Who the hell beheads his brother in Islam over a difference in fiqh, madhab and and aqidah and takes upon himself to declare them a kufar? An insane person, that's who.

I cannot believe what I am reading from you, I am extremely disappointed in you. ISIS members are far, far away from being perfectly normal or near normal human beings.

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1 hour ago, silasun said:

@reisiger Muslims don't talk about mental health and it's really shameful.

And I agree about the overemphasis on fiqh.

How about akhlaaq? Akhlaaq - the science of spirituality - is of more importance than fiqh.

How about beliefs?

Last I checked, so many of us have a messed up belief system!

Fiqh is very important because it lays the basis of spiritual growth but to use it as an excuse to spout nonsense down the throat of believers who are going through a hard time is insane!

We need to follow fiqh because it's the path to success.

But that also applies to those arrogant holier than thou types.

One of the worst sins they commit is making people feel hopeless in Allah.

They hurt other people's feelings.

They have no verve and beauty in their faith.

Their religion is ugly and has no value.

And God knows very well what will happen on the day of judgement.

When they see that they were wasting their time.

Their arrogance made all their good deeds futile.

And the committers of major sins are better off than them.

Salaam alaikum!

Your words are beautiful and so true.  Thank you for sharing them.  I don't mean to sound like I'm dismissing fiqh.  Without the esoteric, the exoteric is mundane ritual.  Equally empty as any other mundane ritual.  Without the exoteric, the esoteric has nothing in which to take root.

But thank you for expressing this so eloquently! :)

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1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I'm not talking about people who commit suicide because their girlfriends left them. I'm talking about disorders that bring on the feelings of suicide. 

How dare you trivialize people's pain and suffering and refuse to recognize REAL MENTAL DISORDERS. (Which you failed to address.)

People who commit suicide, on a whole, are mentally ill. So your argument adds nothing except show your lack of understanding for how depression works.

that article was a perspective on suicide, not the reason if the person hasn't lived through it. It was merely a hypothesis.

I know there is debate over music, but one of the best lyrics I ever read was written by a Muslim, and it's simple enough:

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in their shoes.  Then you really might know what it's like to have to lose.

As for whether people can be punished... Allah (S W T) can do whatever He likes.  That's the awesome thing about Him: He always does the right, just, and compassionate thing.  The thought that a person would be suffering from mental disease, try to end their own life, and then be punished for it, well that would seem to make Allah (S W T) unjust or unkind.  anybody want to suggest that about Him? I sure don't.

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1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I'm not talking about people who commit suicide because their girlfriends left them. I'm talking about disorders that bring on the feelings of suicide. 

How dare you trivialize people's pain and suffering and refuse to recognize REAL MENTAL DISORDERS. (Which you failed to address.)

People who commit suicide, on a whole, are mentally ill. So your argument adds nothing except show your lack of understanding for how depression works.

that article was a perspective on suicide, not the reason if the person hasn't lived through it. It was merely a hypothesis.

Lol. All of these things matter very little when you put it in the context of murder. You might excuse people who have disorders from murder, I don't.

No they are not mostly mentally ill, and the article I posted proved that. You say things but you don't reference to anything.

26 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Yes, I do, do you? Who the hell beheads his brother in Islam over a difference in fiqh, madhab and and aqidah and takes upon himself to declare them a kufar? An insane person, that's who.

I cannot believe what I am reading from you, I am extremely disappointed in you. ISIS members are far, far away from being perfectly normal or near normal human beings.

No. Do you know there is a specific defintion for an insane person in Islam? Is this new to you? Most ISIS members are not insane and do not fit that defintion. :)

You seem to think anyone who does murder is insane. That's not true. People murder others over things like ideology. People with no mental issues.

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People don't just wake up one day and decide to commit suicide. It is a long process of succumbing to hopelessness and despair (yas). When a person repeatedly does this, it has the possibility to culminate in suicide. This serves as a warning to others not to commit this act. 

Ultimately and finally, it is only Allah(s.w.a) who judges a person, because only Allah(s.w.a) has all the information regarding their particular situation. But suicide is, if fact, the act of giving up, finally and completely, on the mercy of Allah(s.w.a), and this is why it is considered very major, because it is form of Kufr(disbelief in Allah(s.w.a) since Allah(s.w.a) repeats over and over that He(s.w.a) is the most merciful). 

So if someone does an act of Kufr, then dies without repenting, their are a Kafir. Because the person who commits suicide does not give themselves a chance to repent, because they took that chance away from themselves, they die as a Kafir. 

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26 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

People don't just wake up one day and decide to commit suicide. It is a long process of succumbing to hopelessness and despair (yas). When a person repeatedly does this, it has the possibility to culminate in suicide. This serves as a warning to others not to commit this act. 

Ultimately and finally, it is only Allah(s.w.a) who judges a person, because only Allah(s.w.a) has all the information regarding their particular situation. But suicide is, if fact, the act of giving up, finally and completely, on the mercy of Allah(s.w.a), and this is why it is considered very major, because it is form of Kufr(disbelief in Allah(s.w.a) since Allah(s.w.a) repeats over and over that He(s.w.a) is the most merciful). 

So if someone does an act of Kufr, then dies without repenting, their are a Kafir. Because the person who commits suicide does not give themselves a chance to repent, because they took that chance away from themselves, they die as a Kafir. 

Salaam alaikum

The only thing that I would argue is that so many Muslims seem to portray it as an action that could have been prevented, or somehow universally the fault of the person who did it.  I see that as blaming the victim.  Suicide is the ultimate irrational act.  To take one's own life is contrary to the survival instinct our Creator put in all of us.  With that said, I have to believe that there are cases where the person who ended their life was unable to be rational due to mental illness exacerbating and magnifying their problems, or what about a person who is horribly abused and just can't take anymore of it?

I understand the reasoning, but the reasoning still lacks compassion.  I cannot and will not believe that Allah (S W T) the Most Merciful would look at His creation who had suffered so greatly through either mental illness to the point that they ended their own life and then cast them into hell.  I'm not justifying suicide, but that argument makes it sound like Allah (S W T) is somehow limited by human logic.  Yes the person took away their own chance to repent, but who is to say that Allah (S W T) couldn't or wouldn't take pity on such a poor wretched soul?

I just come back to the same point where the law seems devoid of any heart.  There is a hadith (forgive me - I can't remember the narrator or the details) that talks about RasulAllah (S A W A S) and one of the companions seeing a woman in a total panic after her child got lost.  They help her to find it and as she is joyfully and tearfully united with her child, RasulAllah (S A W A S) tells the companion that Allah (S W T)'s love for His creation is so great that that mother would sooner cast her child into hellfire than He would.

Alhamdulillah.

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Like I said above, only Allah(s.w.a) can judge that person. The ultimate destination is in the decision of Allah(s.w.a) and noone else

There is compassion, and then there are consequences. Actions have consequences, and the consequences will happen, regardless of how we feel about them. 

If you jump off a building, you will hit the ground at a certain speed, determined by your mass and acceleration(based on the height of the building). The speed and the force with which you hit the ground is determined by gravity, and it will happen regardless of how you feel about gravity. 

As muslim, we believe gravity is determined by Allah(s.w.a), and he allows it to operate by it's own laws 99.9999999% of the time. Can he Allah(s.w.a) intervene to stop gravity from having the normal effect, of course yes, and it has happened. But should you jump off the building, hoping that Allah(s.w.a) will counteract the forces of gravity for you, no. That is a very bad decision, and we can say with a high probability that it won't happen, no matter how much you hope for it. 

As their are physical laws, there are spiritual laws and laws dealing with the nafs(soul). These laws are fixed and determined by Allah(s.w.a), and just as gravity, they operate precisely and accurately 99.9999999% of the time. These laws are explained to us in Holy Quran and hadith. Can they be abrogated and intervened by Allah(s.w.a), of course yes. But is this the normal case ? no. 

It says many times in Holy Quran and hadith, one who dies as a Kafir(denying Allah(s.w.a) or denying the mercy of Allah(s.w.a)), their destination is hell. Since one who commits suicide dies denying the mercy of Allah(s.w.a), they die as a Kafir, therefore hell is the destination. This is the law that is fixed and determined. 

How long they will be in hell is determined by Allah(s.w.a). It depends on many, many factors, most of which are unknown to us regarding that person. The main factor in determining the length of the time in hell is the person's knowledge regarding Allah(s.w.a) or also called Ma'rifat in hadith. If their Ma'rifat is great, and they commit suicide, their stay in hell will be long, maybe eternal. As is the case of Iblis, who had Ma'rifat of Allah(s.w.a) on a very high level, and then did Kufur, when he refused to do sujud to Adam(a.s). 

Those people who are insane, etc, probably their Ma'rifat of Allah(s.w.a) is very limited, so their stay in hell will also be very limited. And Allah(s.w.a) knows better. 

As for the situation in many universities. Brothers and sisters must realize that most of us live in sick, corrupted, materialistic, selfish culture and some use religion in order to reinforce or justify this culture. We are all affected by this. It is true that parents put wrong ideas in the minds of their children(that if they don't succeed in this particular program at this particular point in their lives that they are a failure) and it is true that universities put wrong ideas in the minds of the students. When they do that, knowingly, they are doing thulm(opression) on their children. They will be responsible for that before Allah(s.w.a). But if the student commits an act, such as suicide, they will also be responsible before Allah(s.w.a) for that act. 

The solution is to gain real knowledge of religion by studying Quran and authentic hadith and having friends who have taqwa and are alim(knowledgeable) and adl(just). 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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On 28/02/2017 at 11:03 PM, Abu Hadi said:

People don't just wake up one day and decide to commit suicide. It is a long process of succumbing to hopelessness and despair (yas). When a person repeatedly does this, it has the possibility to culminate in suicide. This serves as a warning to others not to commit this act. 

Ultimately and finally, it is only Allah(s.w.a) who judges a person, because only Allah(s.w.a) has all the information regarding their particular situation. But suicide is, if fact, the act of giving up, finally and completely, on the mercy of Allah(s.w.a), and this is why it is considered very major, because it is form of Kufr(disbelief in Allah(s.w.a) since Allah(s.w.a) repeats over and over that He(s.w.a) is the most merciful). 

So if someone does an act of Kufr, then dies without repenting, their are a Kafir. Because the person who commits suicide does not give themselves a chance to repent, because they took that chance away from themselves, they die as a Kafir. 

All that talk about feeling hopeless and desperate does not change one thing about where the person is going in the akhira. The hadith is very clear that whoever commits suicide is going to burn eternally. 

I said the only exception is he who the Shari'ah has exempt him from punishment such as the insane or his likeness.

All this talk about "too much" pain is easily responded to by the fact that what the Prophets did is something which we should aim to emulate. The Prophets and Imams who were oppressed like no other humans were oppressed and abused, remained patient. It is all about remaining patient even if the pain of the entire Earth manifested itself into you. It is all about passing the tests of Allah.

Suicide is never halal under any circumstances and the answer is very straightforward and clear. 

Edited by E.L King
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@E.L King An action being haram does not preclude having sympathy for those who make a poor choice and suffer the consequences. We all make mistakes. In any event, people who are dead don't need our empathy. Their families and loved ones do. Their families don't need to hear about the suffering of the suicide perpetrator in the afterlife, they already know and it only increases their sorrow. 

_____

My lack of sympathy for people who threaten suicide is a defect in my mental function which has arisen from trauma of two different people who I knew and cared about, making suicide threats as a way to control people. One person grew out of it, and I don't interact with the other anymore so I have no idea about that one. 

I can't help but wonder if E.L King has a reason for his callous statements, or if he's just never experienced such a thing and can't relate.

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1 minute ago, notme said:

@E.L King An action being haram does not preclude having sympathy for those who make a poor choice and suffer the consequences. We all make mistakes. In any event, people who are dead don't need our empathy. Their families and loved ones do. Their families don't need to hear about the suffering of the suicide perpetrator in the afterlife, they already know and it only increases their sorrow. 

_____

My lack of sympathy for people who threaten suicide is a defect in my mental function which has arisen from trauma of two different people who I knew and cared about, making suicide threats as a way to control people. One person grew out of it, and I don't interact with the other anymore so I have no idea about that one. 

I can't help but wonder if E.L King has a reason for his callous statements, or if he's just never experienced such a thing and can't relate.

I have sympathy to the fact that they gave up on life and now are suffering the consequences. 

"we all make mistakes" not all mistakes give you eternal Fire. Someone not throwing his rubbish in the bin is not the same as self-murder. That's just fact.

Yes we should have sympathy for their family. Absolutely.

I have a reason for my statements, I use religious sources to back up my opinions which I shouldn't have to because one would expect people know about the punishment in the Afterlife for suicide in Islam.

No I haven't experienced anything of that sort, my culture and background alhamdulillah have made this impossible for such a thing.

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3 minutes ago, E.L King said:

 

No I haven't experienced anything of that sort, my culture and background alhamdulillah have made this impossible for such a thing.

God forbid you ever experience depression to the point of psychosis and suicide.

this has nothing to do with culture. Chemical imbalances happen no matter your race, social status, or background. 

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On 25/02/2017 at 11:26 PM, Mohamed1993 said:

So, having had about 10 people throughout my time at university commit suicide through various means. We always had people feeling empathy for them and what they went through, they were articles in the university newspaper about reducing the workload, improving mental health facilities on campus etc. I always felt very skeptical of all of this. If I'm honest, I always felt like how selfish of these people to kill themselves. I would think what more do they want? They're studying at a pretty good university, they have the opportunities that other people can only dream of, they're not poor, not starving, so what is the problem? And when killing themselves, didn't they think about their family? What they'd be putting them through? I tried talking to my friends about this, it was a huge disaster, they called me unempathetic, unsympathizing, they're like you don't know what these people go through etc. Ok maybe, I don't know exactly what they go through but what I do know is that there are people in this world far more deprived of opportunities who know how to smile and get on with their day. How dare you think to yourself then that life is so hard for me and let me just take these pills or jump off this building when people worse than you fight? 

Sorry if this comes off as a bit harsh but criticism is always welcome.   

I think all you can do is pray for them, if Allah wills he can forgive them. What have they done is done... whatever the reasons may be. They aren't coming back !!!! But by now they have known for themselves that they made the huge mistake in most cases. So it's better to leave the matter To God. We can only pray.

 

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