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In the Name of God بسم الله

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:bismillah:

:salam:

 

Text of sermon 3 or sermon shaqshaqiyah of nahjul balagha is here https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

 

Sources of this Sermon

Allama Baqir Majlisi in his historical work Bihar ul Anwar narrated all the versions of this Khutbah Shaqshaqiyah from all primary shia hadith books along with some other reports in the chapter named:

باب شكاية أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه عمن تقدمه من المتغلبين الغاصبين

"Chapter of Ameer al mumineen's PBUH Complaints about those who preceded him from the oppressors who took his right"

Online Source to this chapter from Bihar ul Anwar: http://ablibrary.net/فارسی/کتابها/7645_بحار الأنوار(29)/صفحه_545

 

Authenticity of this sermon from Shia Scholar and Researcher of Bihar ul Anwar Shaikh Asif Muhsini.

Asif Muhsini in his "Mashara'at Bihar Al Anwar", said:

اورد فيه المصنف ( 69 ) شاهداً من الاحاديث والروايات ، والمذكورة برقم (17) معتبرة سنداً فقط لا غير ]

[ مشرعة بحار الانوار / محمد اصف محسني ج 2 ص 34 ]

"the Musannif(Al Majlisi) has placed in this chapter 69 narrations, only that narration which is number (17) has an acceptable chain of narrators" [Mashra'at bihar al Anwar 2/34]

 

So the only reliable narration out of all 69 narrations in the chapter is 17. Which in fact is not sermon of shaqshaqiyah. Check from online source of Bihar ul Anwar Here

Below is the scan of what Shaikh Asif Muhsini said in his "Mashara'at Bihar Al Anwar".

Capture.thumb.PNG.7a9b9080d472309b1ba425ab616693cf.PNG

 

Some more thoughts on this fabricated sermon.

 

Jazak Alah khairan.

Edited by Fahad Sani

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5 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

 

Text of sermon 3 or sermon shaqshaqiyah of nahjul balagha is here https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

 

Sources of this Sermon

Allama Baqir Majlisi in his historical work Bihar ul Anwar narrated all the versions of this Khutbah Shaqshaqiyah from all primary shia hadith books along with some other reports in the chapter named:

باب شكاية أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه عمن تقدمه من المتغلبين الغاصبين

"Chapter of Ameer al mumineen's PBUH Complaints about those who preceded him from the oppressors who took his right"

Online Source to this chapter from Bihar ul Anwar: http://ablibrary.net/فارسی/کتابها/7645_بحار الأنوار(29)/صفحه_545

 

Authenticity of this sermon from Shia Scholar and Researcher of Bihar ul Anwar Shaikh Asif Muhsini.

Asif Muhsini in his "Mashara'at Bihar Al Anwar", said:

اورد فيه المصنف ( 69 ) شاهداً من الاحاديث والروايات ، والمذكورة برقم (17) معتبرة سنداً فقط لا غير ]

[ مشرعة بحار الانوار / محمد اصف محسني ج 2 ص 34 ]

"the Musannif(Al Majlisi) has placed in this chapter 69 narrations, only that narration which is number (17) has an acceptable chain of narrators" [Mashra'at bihar al Anwar 2/34]

 

So the only reliable narration out of all 69 narrations in the chapter is 17. Which in fact is not sermon of shaqshaqiyah. Check from online source of Bihar ul Anwar Here

Below is the scan of what Shaikh Asif Muhsini said in his "Mashara'at Bihar Al Anwar".

Capture.thumb.PNG.7a9b9080d472309b1ba425ab616693cf.PNG

 

Some more thoughts on this fabricated sermon.

 

Jazak Alah khairan.

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيْمِ

Can you show us where and how all the chains are considered as fabricated? What you have copied in OP is not proof enough that the sermon is supposedly "fabricated".

 

This sermon has been narrated by many chains and the sermon itself have been termed as authentic by many many scholars.

1) The chain of narrators is not the only factor that determines the authenticity of a narration/speech. Rather, other factors such as the acceptance of the historians and scholars as well as the authenticity of the context play a major role in that decision. Therefore, it is not correct to only view the narration andits authenticity/reliability from that particular perspective.

2) The speech of Shaqshaqiya has been narrated in 4 different chains, and thisfactor strengthens the reliability of the narration since it explicitly shows that the speech was well known by more than one group of persons at that time.

 

 

3) One of Khutbas chain of narrators is the following:

1) Mohammad 2) Hassan bin Ali al-Za'farani 3) Mohammad bin Zakariya al-Qallabi 4) Ya'qub bin Ja'far bin Sulayman 5) Ja'far bin Sulayman 6) Sulayman 7) Ibn-Abbas

This chain is mentioned by Ibn-Taoos in his book "al-Tara'ef"

4) Another chain is the following: 1) Al-haffar 2) Abu-l-Qassem al-Du'lubi 3) Ubay 4) Du'bul 5) Muhammad bin Salama al-Shammi 6) Zurara bin a'yun 7) Abi Ja'far Muhammad bin Ali pbut) 8) Ibn-Abbas 9) Also, Imam Muhammad bin Ali (pbut) from his father from his grandfather (pbut)

This could be found in al-Amaali for Sheikh Al Toosi.

5) The narrations of 'akramah which are considered weak are those which supporthis thoughts and beliefs, for it is not normal for a person to attack his own belief and weaken it. Therefore, the scholars consider that whatever a weak narrator mentions in opposition to his belief as reliable to a certain extent.

 

https://www.scribd.com/doc/105118732/Khutba-Shaqshaqia-Ravian

 

Anyhow since you don't seem to like it anyway, here's another sermon instead:

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن محبوب، عن علي بن رئاب، ويعقوب السراج، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) أن أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) لما بويع بعد مقتل عثمان صعد المنبر فقال: الحمد لله الذي علا فاستعلى ودنا فتعالى وارتفع فوق كل منظر وأشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وحده لا شريك له وأشهد أن محمدا عبده ورسوله خاتم النبيين وحجة الله على العالمين مصدقا للرسل الأولين وكان بالمؤمنين رؤوفا رحيما فصلى الله وملائكته عليه وعلى آله.
أما بعد أيها الناس فإن البغي يقود أصحابه إلى النار وإن أول من بغى على الله جل ذكره عناق بنت آدم وأول قتيل قتله الله عناق وكان مجلسها جريبا [من الأرض] في جريب وكان لها عشرون إصبعا في كل إصبع ظفران مثل المنجلين فسلط الله عز وجل عليها أسدا كالفيل وذئبا كالبعير ونسرا مثل البغل فقتلوها وقد قتل الله الجبابرة على أفضل أحوالهم وآمن ما كانوا وأمات هامان وأهلك فرعون وقد قتل عثمان، ألا وإن بليتكم قد عادت كهيئتها يوم بعث الله نبيه (صلى الله عليه وآله) والذي بعثه بالحق لتبلبلن بلبلة ولتغربلن غربلة ولتساطن سوطة القدر حتى يعود أسفلكم أعلاكم وأعلاكم أسفلكم وليسبقن سابقون كانوا قصروا وليقصرن سابقون كانوا سبقوا والله ما كتمت وشمة ولا كذبت كذبه ولقد نبئت بهذا المقام وهذا اليوم ألا وإن الخطايا خيل شمس حمل عليها أهلها وخلعت لجمها فتقحمت بهم في النار، ألا وإن التقوى مطايا ذلل حمل عليها أهلها وأعطوا .
أزمتها فأوردتهم الجنة وفتحت لهم أبوابها ووجدوا ريحها وطيبها وقيل لهم: ” ادخلوها بسلام آمنين “، ألا وقد سبقني إلى هذا الامر من لم أشركه فيه ومن لم أهبه له ومن ليست له منه نوبة إلا بنبي يبعث، ألا ولا نبي بعد محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله)، أشرف منه على شفا جرف هار فانهار به في نار جهنم. حق وباطل ولكل أهل، فلئن أمر الباطل لقديما فعل ولئن قل الحق فلربما ولعل ولقلما أدبر شئ فأقبل ولئن رد عليكم أمركم أنكم سعداء وما علي إلا الجهد وإني لأخشى أن تكونوا على فترة ملتم عني ميلة كنتم فيها عندي غير محمودي الرأي ولو أشاء لقلت: عفا الله عما سلف، سبق فيه الرجلان وقام الثالث كالغراب همه بطنه، ويله لو قص جناحاه وقطع رأسه كان خيرا له، شغل عن الجنة والنار أمامه، ثلاثة واثنان خمسة ليس لهم سادس: ملك يطير بجناحيه ونبي أخذ الله بضبعيه وساع مجتهد وطالب يرجوا ومقصر في النار، اليمين والشمال مضلة والطريق الوسطى هي الجادة عليها يأتي الكتاب وآثار النبوة، هلك من ادعى وخاب من افترى إن الله أدب هذه الأمة بالسيف والسوط وليس لاحد عند الامام فيهما هوادة فاستتروا في بيوتكم وأصلحوا ذات بينكم والتوبة من ورائكم، من أبدى صفحته للحق هلك .

 

 

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Mahboub, from Ali Bin Ra’ab abd Yaqoub Al-Sarraaj who has said:
Abu Abdullah (as) has narrated that: ‘Amir-ul-Momineen (as), when they had pledged allegiance to him (as) after the killing of Usman, ascended the Pulpit, so he (as) said:

‘Praise be to Allah Who is High and thus all is in His possession and He is Closer than any in the view. And I hereby testify that there is no god but Allah,One with no associates to Him, and I testify that Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã is His servant and His Messenger Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã, the last of the Prophets and a Proof over the worlds, a ratification for the former Prophets and was kind and merciful to the Believers. The Angels sent ‘salam’ greetings of peace upon himsaww and upon hissaww Progeny(as).

Having said that, O you people! The transgression (indecency) places its owner into the Fire, and the first one to transgression (commit indecency) against Allah Majestic is His Remembrance was Onaq the daughter of Adam (as), and the first one who was killed, whom Allah Killed was Onaq. And the area that she occupied when seated upon the ground measured one square acre (Jarib) of the land, and she had twenty fingers and on each of her fingers were two nails like two sickles. So Allah Mighty and Majestic Made her to be overcome by a lion which was like an elephant (in size), and a wolf which was like a camel (in size), and an eagle like a mule (in size). So they killed her.

And Allah had Killed the tyrants in their best conditions, and gave Safety to those who used to be (oppressed). And He Made Hannaan to die, and destroyed the Pharaoh, and He has Killed Usman. Indeed! Your misfortunes have returned to what they were on the day Allah Sent His Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã. By the One Who Sent him by the truth, you will be confused with a (severe) confusion and be sifted with a (severe) sifting, and stirred and turned like the contents of a frying pan until your underside becomes your upper side and your upper side becomes your underside. The ones who used to be with the shortcomings will become the foremost ones, and those who used to be the foremost ones would become the people with shortcomings.

By Allah! I have neither concealed, nor blocked, nor lied a lie, and I have been foretold about this place and this day. Indeed! And the sins are like uncontrollable horses which carry its riders, with its harnesses removed, plunging into the Fire. Indeed! And the piety is like a humble ride which takes its rider, along with its rein, to the Paradise, and its Doors will be opened up for them, and they will find its aroma and goodness. And it will be said to them: ‘Enter it in peace and security’.

Indeed! The ones who had no association with it has preceded me to this command (Caliphate), and the ones to whom it had not been Granted to, and the ones for whom there was no chance from it except if they were to be Prophets who had been Sent. And indeed! There is no Prophet as to be after Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã who is more noble than him over the intercession on the brink of the Fire. So they will fall with by it (their lies) in the Fire of Hell.

Truth as well as falsehood, for each of them are its people. The matter of falsehood is a very old one and has been active. And if the truth is less (in practice) it is because of ‘if’ and ‘maybe’. And it is rare that if a thing gone away comes back, and if your command (Caliphate) returns to you, you would be pleased, and it is not on me except for the striving, and I am afraid that you all will end up being on the nature of your nation (away) from me, the nation that you were in beforehand and would not have a praiseworthy opinion in my sight, and if I so desire to I would say: ‘May Allah Forgive what was in the past’.
Two men preceded me with regards to it (Caliphate), and the third one stood up like the Raven. His main concern was his stomach. Woe be unto him! Had his wings been clipped and his head cut-off, it would have been better for him. He was distracted from the Paradise and the Hell was in front of him. Three and two make five, there is no sixth of them – An Angel who files by his wings, and a Prophet whom Allah has Grabbed by his shoulders (Given him Divine Status), and a diligent seeker (momin), and a hopeful student, and a reducer(Muqassir) are in the Fire.

The right and the left are misleading, whereas the middle path is the street on which you will come across the Book and the effects of the Prophet-hood. Destroyed is the one who makes a claim, and disillusioned is the one who fabricates that Allah Disciplined this community by the sword and the whip, and there is no leniency for either of them with the Imam. So, hide in your homes and mend your relationships in between yourselves and the repentance is behind you all. The one who turned his cheek (opposed the Imam) to the truth is destroyed.

 

Source:Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 8,Pg 67,H 23

 

Grading:

  1. Majlisi:”Hasan” (Mirat ul Uqool 25/151)
  2. Sheikh Asif Muhsini:”Mo’tabar Sanad” (Masharat Behar al-Anwar 2/34)
  3. Hadi Najafi:”Saheeh Sanad” (Mawsua’t al-Hadith Ahlalbayt 2/59)

 http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2045:concept-of-hazrat-ali-a-s-regarding-caliphate-of-sheikhain&catid=155&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

Wsalam

Edited by The Straight Path

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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

 

Text of sermon 3 or sermon shaqshaqiyah of nahjul balagha is here https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

 

Sources of this Sermon

Allama Baqir Majlisi in his historical work Bihar ul Anwar narrated all the versions of this Khutbah Shaqshaqiyah from all primary shia hadith books along with some other reports in the chapter named:

باب شكاية أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه عمن تقدمه من المتغلبين الغاصبين

"Chapter of Ameer al mumineen's PBUH Complaints about those who preceded him from the oppressors who took his right"

Online Source to this chapter from Bihar ul Anwar: http://ablibrary.net/فارسی/کتابها/7645_بحار الأنوار(29)/صفحه_545

 

Authenticity of this sermon from Shia Scholar and Researcher of Bihar ul Anwar Shaikh Asif Muhsini.

Asif Muhsini in his "Mashara'at Bihar Al Anwar", said:

اورد فيه المصنف ( 69 ) شاهداً من الاحاديث والروايات ، والمذكورة برقم (17) معتبرة سنداً فقط لا غير ]

[ مشرعة بحار الانوار / محمد اصف محسني ج 2 ص 34 ]

"the Musannif(Al Majlisi) has placed in this chapter 69 narrations, only that narration which is number (17) has an acceptable chain of narrators" [Mashra'at bihar al Anwar 2/34]

 

So the only reliable narration out of all 69 narrations in the chapter is 17. Which in fact is not sermon of shaqshaqiyah. Check from online source of Bihar ul Anwar Here

Below is the scan of what Shaikh Asif Muhsini said in his "Mashara'at Bihar Al Anwar".

Capture.thumb.PNG.7a9b9080d472309b1ba425ab616693cf.PNG

 

Some more thoughts on this fabricated sermon.

 

Jazak Alah khairan.

hahahahahahahahahaha, the other day I listened to you that you said "Bihar al Anwar" is not considered by Shias as among the four Hadith books because it is under research and there are many hadith which do not have chain of narrations. So, why did you came along with this argument of "Bihar al Anwar" ?

Secondly, Our ulemas are not dishonest in their duty towards Islam that they make up lies. It is, indeed, verified and you can argue this with a Shia Alim near your area. 

Finally, which of our claim you have admitted that we labor now on this issue and prove you wrong ?

1. You admitted Umm-i-Ayesha was wrong.

2. You admitted that Abu Bakar snatched away Fadak.

3. You can find in your books that Umar burnt house of Zahra. 

What else you want ? This is not a sensible discussion at all. No reason to argue with you. 

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5 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

 

Text of sermon 3 or sermon shaqshaqiyah of nahjul balagha is here https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

 

Sources of this Sermon

Allama Baqir Majlisi in his historical work Bihar ul Anwar narrated all the versions of this Khutbah Shaqshaqiyah from all primary shia hadith books along with some other reports in the chapter named:

باب شكاية أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه عمن تقدمه من المتغلبين الغاصبين

"Chapter of Ameer al mumineen's PBUH Complaints about those who preceded him from the oppressors who took his right"

Online Source to this chapter from Bihar ul Anwar: http://ablibrary.net/فارسی/کتابها/7645_بحار الأنوار(29)/صفحه_545

 

Authenticity of this sermon from Shia Scholar and Researcher of Bihar ul Anwar Shaikh Asif Muhsini.

Asif Muhsini in his "Mashara'at Bihar Al Anwar", said:

اورد فيه المصنف ( 69 ) شاهداً من الاحاديث والروايات ، والمذكورة برقم (17) معتبرة سنداً فقط لا غير ]

[ مشرعة بحار الانوار / محمد اصف محسني ج 2 ص 34 ]

"the Musannif(Al Majlisi) has placed in this chapter 69 narrations, only that narration which is number (17) has an acceptable chain of narrators" [Mashra'at bihar al Anwar 2/34]

 

So the only reliable narration out of all 69 narrations in the chapter is 17. Which in fact is not sermon of shaqshaqiyah. Check from online source of Bihar ul Anwar Here

Below is the scan of what Shaikh Asif Muhsini said in his "Mashara'at Bihar Al Anwar".

Capture.thumb.PNG.7a9b9080d472309b1ba425ab616693cf.PNG

 

Some more thoughts on this fabricated sermon.

Jazak Alah khairan.

Salam, if you consider that this sermon is a fabrication then  we bring the following facts from the history proving that it is the original production of Imam Ali AS:

Among these scholars some are those before as-Sayyid ar-Radi's period, some are his contemporaries and some are those who came after him but they all related it through their own chain of authority.

1) Ibn Abi'l-Hadid al-Mu`tazili writes that his master Abu'l-Khayr Musaddiq ibn Shabib al-Wasiti (d. 605 A.H.) stated that he heard this sermon from ash-Shaykh Abu Muhammad `Abdullah ibn Ahmad al-Baghdadi (d. 567 A.H.) known as Ibn al-Khashshab and when he reached where Ibn `Abbas expressed sorrow for this sermon having remained incomplete Ibn al-Khashshab said to him that if he had heard the expression of sorrow from Ibn `Abbas he would have certainly asked him if there had remained with his cousin any further unsatisfied desire because excepting the Prophet he had already spared neither the predecessors nor followers and had uttered all that he wished to utter. Why should therefore be any sorrow that he could not say what he wished?

Musaddiq says that Ibn al-Khashshab was a man of jolly heart and decent taste. I inquired from him whether he also regarded the sermon to be a fabrication when he replied "By Allah, I believe it to be Amir al-mu'minin's word as I believe you to be Musaddiq ibn Shabib." I said that some people regard it to be as-Sayyid ar-Radi's production when he replied: "How can ar-Radi have such guts or such style of writing. I have seen as-Sayyid ar-Radi's writings and know his style of composition. Nowhere does his writing match with this one and I have already seen it in books written two hundred years before the birth of as-Sayyid ar-Radi, and I have seen it in familiar writings about which I know by which scholars or men of letters they were compiled. At that time not only ar-Radi but even his father Abu Ahmad an-Naqib has not been born."

2) Thereafter Ibn Abi'l-Hadid writes that he saw this sermon in the compilations of his master Abu'l-Qasim (`Abdullah ibn Ahmad) al-Balkhi (d. 317 A.H.). He was the Imam of the Mu'tazilites in the reign of al-Muqtadir Billah while al-Muqtadir's period was far earlier than the birth of as-Sayyid ar-Radi.

3) He further writes that he saw this sermon in Abu Ja`far (Muhammad ibn `Abd ar-Rahman), Ibn Qibah's book al-Insaf. He was the pupil of Abu'l-Qasim al-Balkhi and a theologian of Imamiyyah (Shi`ite) sect. (Sharh of Ibn Abi'l-Hadid, vol.1, pp.205-206)

4) Ibn Maytham al-Bahrani (d. 679 A.H.) writes in his commentary that he had seen one such copy of this sermon which bore writing of al-Muqtadir Billah's minister Abu'l-Hasan `Ali ibn Muhammad ibn al-Furat (d. 312 A.H.). (Sharh al-balaghah, vol.1., pp.252-253)

5) al-`Allamah Muhammad Baqir al-Majlisi has related the following chain of authority about this Sermon from ash-Shaykh Qutbu'd-Din ar-Rawandi's compilation Minhaj al-bara`ah fi Sharh Nahjul Balaghah: Ash-Shaykh Abu Nasr al-Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Ibrahim informed me from al-Hajib Abu'l-Wafa' Muhammad ibn Badi`, al-Husayn ibn Ahmad ibn Badi` and al-Husayn ibn Ahmad ibn `Abd ar-Rahman and they from al-Hafiz Abu Bakr (Ahmad ibn Musa) ibn Marduwayh al-Isbahani (d. 416 A.H.) and he from al-Hafiz Abu'l-Qasim Sulayman ibn Ahmad at-Tabarani (d. 360 A.H.) and he from Ahmad ibn `Ali al-Abbar and he from Is'haq ibn Sa`id Abu Salamah ad-Dimashqi and he from Khulayd ibn Da`laj and he from `Ata' ibn Abi Rabah and he from Ibn `Abbas. (Bihar al-anwar, 1st ed. vol.8, pp.160-161)

6) In the context al-`Allamah al-Majlisi has written that this sermon is also contained in the compilations of Abu `Ali (Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab) al-Jubba 'i (d. 303 A.H.) .7) In connection with this very authenticity al-`Allamah al-Majlisi writes: Al-Qadi `Abd al-Jabbar ibn Ahmad al-Asad'abadi (d. 415A.H.) who was a strict Mu`tazilite explains some expressions of this sermon in his book al-Mughni and tries to prove that it does not strike against any preceding caliph but does not deny it to be Amir al-mu'minin's composition. (ibid., p.161)

8) Abu Ja`far Muhammad ibn `Ali, Ibn Babawayh (d. 381 A.H.) writes: Muhammad ibn Ibrahim ibn Is'haq at-Talaqani told us that `Abd al-`Aziz ibn Yahya al-Jaludi (d. 332 A.H.) told him that Abu `Abdillah Ahmad ibn `Ammar ibn Khalid told him that Yahya ibn `Abd al-Hamid al- Himmani (d. 228 A.H.) told him that `Isa ibn Rashid related this sermon from `Ali ibn Hudhayfah and he from `Ikrimah and he from Ibn `Abbas. (`Ilal ash-shara'i`,vol.1, chap. 122, p.144; Ma`ani al-akhbar, chap.22, pp.360-361)
9) Then Ibn Babawayh records the following chain of authorities :- Muhammad ibn `Ali Majilawayh related this sermon to us and he took it from his uncle Muhammad ibn Abi'l-Qasim and he from Ahmad ibn Abi `Abdillah (Muhammad ibn Khalid) al-Barqi and he from his father and he from (Muhammad) Ibn Abi `Umayr and he from Aban ibn `Uthman and he from Aban ibn Taghlib and he from `Ikrimah and he from Ibn `Abbas. (`Ilal ash-shara'i`, vol.1, chap.122, p.l46; Ma`ani al-akhbar, chap.22, p.361)
10) Abu Ahmad al-Hasan ibn `Abdillah ibn Sa`id al-`Askari (d.382 A.H.) who counts among great scholars of the Sunnis has written commentary and explanation of this sermon that has been recorded by Ibn Babawayh in `Ilal ash-shara'i` and Ma`ani al-akhbar.
11) as-Sayyid Ni`matullah al-Jaza'iri writes: The author of Kitab al-gharat Abu Is'haq, Ibrahim ibn Muhammad ath-Thaqafi al-Kufi (d. 283 A.H.) has related this sermon through his own chain of authorities. The date of completion of writing this book is Tuesday the 13th Shawwal 255 A.H. and in the same year, Murtada al-Musawi was born. He was older in age than his brother as-Sayyid ar-Radi. (Anwar an-Nu`maniyyah, p.37)
12) as-Sayyid Radi ad-Din Abu'l-Qasim `Ali ibn Musa, Ibn Tawus al-Husayni al-Hulli (d. 664 A.H.) has related this sermon from Kitab al-gharat with the following chain of authorities:- This sermon was related to us by Muhammad ibn Yusuf who related it from al-Hasan ibn `Ali ibn `Abd al-Karim az-Za`farani and he from Muhammad ibn Zakariyyah al-Ghallabi and he from Ya`qub ibn Ja`far ibn Sulayman and he from his father and he from his grand-father and he from Ibn `Abbas. (Translation of at-Tara'if, p.202)
13) Shaykh at-Ta'ifah, Muhammad ibn al- Hasan at-Tusi (d. 460 A.H.) writes: (Abu'l-Fath Hilal ibn Muhammad ibn Ja`far) al-Haffar related this sermon to us. He related it from Abu'l-Qasim (Isma`il ibn `Ali ibn `Ali) ad-Di`bili and he from his father and he from his brother Di`bil (ibn `Ali al-Kuza`i) and he from Muhammad ibn Salamah ash-Shami and he from Zurarah ibn A`yan and he from Abu Ja`far Muhammad ibn `Ali and he from Ibn `Abbas. (al-Amali, p.237)
14) ash-Shaykh al-Mufid (Muhammad ibn Muhammad ibn an-Nu`man, d. 413 A.H.) who was the teacher of as-Sayyid ar-Radi writes about the chain of authorities of this sermon: A number of relaters of traditions have related this sermon from Ibn `Abbas through numerous chains. (al-Irshad, p.135)
15) `Alam al-Huda (emblem of guidance) as-Sayyid al-Murtada who was the elder brother of as-Sayyid ar-Radi has recorded it on pp. 203,204 of his book ash-Shafi.
16) Abu Mansur at-Tabarsi writes: A number of relaters have given an account of this sermon from Ibn `Abbas through various chains. Ibn `Abbas said that he was in the audience of Amir al-mu'minin at ar-Rahbah (a place in Kufah) when conversation turned to Caliphate and those who had preceded him as Caliphs, when Amir al-mu'minin breathed a sigh and delivered this sermon. (al-Ihtijaj, p. 101)
17) Abu'l-Muzaffar Yusuf ibn `Abdillah and Sibt ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanafi (d. 654 A.H.) writes: Our ash-Shaykh Abu'l-Qasim an-Nafis al-Anbari related this sermon to us through his chain of authorities that ends with Ibn `Abbas, who said that after allegiance had been paid to Amir al-mu'minin as Caliph he was sitting on the pulpit when a man from the audience enquired why he had remained quiet till then whereupon Amir al-mu'minin delivered this sermon extempore. (Tadhkarat khawass al-ummah, p.73)
18) al-Qadi Ahmad ibn Muhammad, ash-Shihab al-Khafaji (d. 1069 A.H.) writes with regard to its authenticity: It is stated in the utterances of Amir al-mu'minin `Ali (Allah may be pleased with him) that "It is strange during life time he (Abu Bakr) wanted to give up the Caliphate but he strengthened its foundation for the other one after his death." (Sharh durrat al-ghawwas, p.17)
19) ash-Shaykh `Ala ad-Dawlah as-Simnani writes: Amir al-mu'minin Sayyid al-`Arifin `Ali (p.b.u.h.) has stated in one of his brilliant Sermons "this is the Shiqshiqah that burst forth." (al-`Urwah li ahl al-khalwah wa'l-jalwah, p3, manuscript in Nasiriah Library, Lucknow, India)
20) Abu'l-Fadl Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-Maydani (d. 518 A.H.) has written in connection with the word Shiqshiqah: One sermon of Amir al-mu'minin `Ali is known as Khutbah ash-Shiqshiqiyyah (the sermon of the Camel's Foam). (Majma` al-amthal, vol.1, p.369)
21) In fifteen places in an-Nihayah while explaining the words of this sermon Abu's-Sa`adat Mubarak ibn Muhammad, Ibn al-Athir al-Jazari (d. 606 A.H.) has acknowledged it to be Amir al-mu'minin's utterance.
22) Shaykh Muhammad Tahir Patni while explaining the same words in Majma` bihar al-anwar testifies this sermon to be Amir al-mu'minin's by saying, "`Ali says so."
23) Abu'l-Fadl ibn Manzur (d. 711 A.H.) has acknowledged it as Amir al-mu'minin's utterance in Lisan al-`Arab, vol.12, p.54 by saying, "In the sayings of `Ali in his sermon 'It is the camel's foam that burst forth then subsided.'"
24) Majdu'd-Din al-Firuz'abadi (d. 816/817 A.H.) has recorded under the word "Shiqshiqah" in his lexicon (al-Qamus, vol.3, p.251): Khutbah ash-Shiqshiqiyyah is by `Ali so named because when Ibn `Abbas asked him to resume it where he had left it, he said "O' Ibn `Abbas! it was the foam of a camel that burst forth then subsided."
25) The compiler of Muntaha al-adab writes: Khutbah ash-Shiqshiqiyyah of `Ali is attributed to `Ali (Allah may honour his face).
26) ash-Shaykh Muhammad `Abduh, Mufti of Egypt, recognising it as Amir al-mu'minin's utterance, has written its explanations.
27) Muhammad Muhyi'd-Din `Abd al-Hamid, Professor in the Faculty of Arabic Language, al-Azhar University has written annotations on Nahjul Balaghah adding a foreword in the beginning wherein he recognises all such sermons which contain disparaging remarks to be the utterances of Amir al-mu'minin.
 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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5 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

hahahahahahahahahaha, the other day I listened to you that you said "Bihar al Anwar" is not considered by Shias as among the four Hadith books because it is under research and there are many hadith which do not have chain of narrations. So, why did you came along with this argument of "Bihar al Anwar" ?

Secondly, Our ulemas are not dishonest in their duty towards Islam that they make up lies. It is, indeed, verified and you can argue this with a Shia Alim near your area. 

Finally, which of our claim you have admitted that we labor now on this issue and prove you wrong ?

1. You admitted Umm-i-Ayesha was wrong.

2. You admitted that Abu Bakar snatched away Fadak.

3. You can find in your books that Umar burnt house of Zahra. 

What else you want ? This is not a sensible discussion at all. No reason to argue with you. 

He's been shown proof and the truth countless times, but the salafi mentality is a very ignorant one. The fact he believes Allah has a physical body shows you what kind of brain he has and how much he's willing to not accept the truth.

Edited by Hassan Y

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12 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيْمِ

Can you show us where and how all the chains are considered as fabricated? What you have copied in OP is not proof enough that the sermon is supposedly "fabricated".

 

This sermon has been narrated by many chains and the sermon itself have been termed as authentic by many many scholars.

2) The speech of Shaqshaqiya has been narrated in 4 different chains, and thisfactor strengthens the reliability of the narration since it explicitly shows that the speech was well known by more than one group of persons at that time.

 

 

3) One of Khutbas chain of narrators is the following:

1) Mohammad 2) Hassan bin Ali al-Za'farani 3) Mohammad bin Zakariya al-Qallabi 4) Ya'qub bin Ja'far bin Sulayman 5) Ja'far bin Sulayman 6) Sulayman 7) Ibn-Abbas

This chain is mentioned by Ibn-Taoos in his book "al-Tara'ef"

4) Another chain is the following: 1) Al-haffar 2) Abu-l-Qassem al-Du'lubi 3) Ubay 4) Du'bul 5) Muhammad bin Salama al-Shammi 6) Zurara bin a'yun 7) Abi Ja'far Muhammad bin Ali pbut) 8) Ibn-Abbas 9) Also, Imam Muhammad bin Ali (pbut) from his father from his grandfather (pbut)

 

 
Salam aleykum,

1.Al-Zafarani: unknown

2.Jafar bin Sulayman: unknown

3.Al-Haffar (Abu Al-Fath Bilal ibn Muhammad ibn Jafar): weak

4.Abu Al-Qasim Dubul( Ismail ibn Ali ibn Ali): weak/liar

 

Edited by Maulana

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21 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

 

Text of sermon 3 or sermon shaqshaqiyah of nahjul balagha is here https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

 

Sources of this Sermon

Allama Baqir Majlisi in his historical work Bihar ul Anwar narrated all the versions of this Khutbah Shaqshaqiyah from all primary shia hadith books along with some other reports in the chapter named:

باب شكاية أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه عمن تقدمه من المتغلبين الغاصبين

"Chapter of Ameer al mumineen's PBUH Complaints about those who preceded him from the oppressors who took his right"

Online Source to this chapter from Bihar ul Anwar: http://ablibrary.net/فارسی/کتابها/7645_بحار الأنوار(29)/صفحه_545

 

Authenticity of this sermon from Shia Scholar and Researcher of Bihar ul Anwar Shaikh Asif Muhsini.

Asif Muhsini in his "Mashara'at Bihar Al Anwar", said:

اورد فيه المصنف ( 69 ) شاهداً من الاحاديث والروايات ، والمذكورة برقم (17) معتبرة سنداً فقط لا غير ]

[ مشرعة بحار الانوار / محمد اصف محسني ج 2 ص 34 ]

"the Musannif(Al Majlisi) has placed in this chapter 69 narrations, only that narration which is number (17) has an acceptable chain of narrators" [Mashra'at bihar al Anwar 2/34]

 

So the only reliable narration out of all 69 narrations in the chapter is 17. Which in fact is not sermon of shaqshaqiyah. Check from online source of Bihar ul Anwar Here

Below is the scan of what Shaikh Asif Muhsini said in his "Mashara'at Bihar Al Anwar".

Capture.thumb.PNG.7a9b9080d472309b1ba425ab616693cf.PNG

 

Some more thoughts on this fabricated sermon.

 

Jazak Alah khairan.

14

 

The khutbah of shiqshiqiyah is mustafiḍ, meaning that it is narrated through enough transmissions where taṣḥīḥ/taḍʿīf of the hadith is pointless as now it is a matter of a historical utterance. This has been agreed upon by the major Shi'i scholars. 

Sāḥib al-Jawāhir (Ḥasan al-Najafī) says the following:

فلا ريب في استفاضتها بحيث تستغني عن ملاحظة السند كما هو واضح 

There is no doubt that the sanad of the hadith is mustafīḍ to the point where even discussing its sanad becomes pointless and this is obvious. 

This is not to mention the prevalent historical manuscripts of the text that can be traced back very early on.

Shaykh Muhsini is not someone who is trained in history, historiography or manuscripts and as such, is not an authoritative source for the kinds of questions you may have. Just because he has ijithad in fiqh and studied ilm al rijal does not make him such. 

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I am sorry but are there any books with sermons and sayings of the first 3 caliphs. Perhaps "Mid-Point of Eloquence" or "Base of Eloquence" or "Cave of Eloquence"?

Typical wahabi thinking to where because your caliphs do not have any association with eloquence, you try to cast doubts about the eloquence of Imam Ali (as).

Edited by shiaman14

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Like wise they / wahabi minds try to fabricate the version of hadith for "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate:.

To include the three caliphs  fabricated edition is that in addition to the above" Abu Bakr is its foundation, Umar it’s walls, Uthman its roof ".

But that always go in vain. as there is  no intellectual work / book by three caliphs.

Wasalam

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2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Like wise they / wahabi minds try to fabricate the version of hadith for "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate:.

To include the three caliphs  fabricated edition is that in addition to the above" Abu Bakr is its foundation, Umar it’s walls, Uthman its roof ".

But that always go in vain. as there is  no intellectual work / book by three caliphs.

Wasalam

It took Umar 10 years to memorize a surah lol.

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2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Like wise they / wahabi minds try to fabricate the version of hadith for "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate:.

To include the three caliphs  fabricated edition is that in addition to the above" Abu Bakr is its foundation, Umar it’s walls, Uthman its roof ".

But that always go in vain. as there is  no intellectual work / book by three caliphs.

Wasalam

It took Umar 10 years to memorize a surah lol.

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@The Straight Path @skyweb1987

Baqir Majlisi collected all versions of this sermon in bihar ul anwar, not just one or two chains. And none of them is sahih. See the links in OP for verification.

Authenticity is important not the views of scholars or their personal acceptance. Same ibn Hadid in his commentary on sermon 226 that these words of Imam Ali a.s were in praise of Umar a.s during his janaza. There are so many big contradictions in nahjul balgha. All can not be true. Many sermons are fabrications. And from OP its crystal clear that sermon 3 is a fabrication.

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On 2/26/2017 at 2:47 PM, Hannibal said:

 

The khutbah of shiqshiqiyah is mustafiḍ, meaning that it is narrated through enough transmissions where taṣḥīḥ/taḍʿīf of the hadith is pointless as now it is a matter of a historical utterance. This has been agreed upon by the major Shi'i scholars. 

Sāḥib al-Jawāhir (Ḥasan al-Najafī) says the following:

فلا ريب في استفاضتها بحيث تستغني عن ملاحظة السند كما هو واضح 

There is no doubt that the sanad of the hadith is mustafīḍ to the point where even discussing its sanad becomes pointless and this is obvious. 

This is not to mention the prevalent historical manuscripts of the text that can be traced back very early on.

Shaykh Muhsini is not someone who is trained in history, historiography or manuscripts and as such, is not an authoritative source for the kinds of questions you may have. Just because he has ijithad in fiqh and studied ilm al rijal does not make him such. 

This is ignorance.

All transmissions or chains end up at Ibn Abbas r.a. Its called as a sermon but not narrated by any other viewer present there. This shows that its a lie which is only attributed to Ibn Abbas r.a. This do not make it mutawatir, even if it has thousand chains, as all are from only one narrator. Its source or originator is only one. On the other hand we have hundreds of narrations from same Ibn Abbas r.a in praise and support of first three caliphs and their caliphate. And in terms of authenticity they are much more strong than sermon 3.

Or its just because he is speaking the truth. Shaikh Asif Muhsini has a respectable position among many ayatullahs and marjas. For e.g Ayatullah kamal Haydari often used to quote him and his gradings on bihar ul anwar in his research based lectures.

He was also a disciple of Sayed Al-Khoi. Some ayatullah dont like him because he was anti-khomenie.

Do you know that Shaikh Albani also did not had any trained degree etc but he was a expert in rijal and hadith science (except some mistakes). Degree is not important but knowledge.

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On 2/27/2017 at 10:27 PM, shiaman14 said:

I am sorry but are there any books with sermons and sayings of the first 3 caliphs. Perhaps "Mid-Point of Eloquence" or "Base of Eloquence" or "Cave of Eloquence"?

Typical wahabi thinking to where because your caliphs do not have any association with eloquence, you try to cast doubts about the eloquence of Imam Ali (as).

 

15 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Like wise they / wahabi minds try to fabricate the version of hadith for "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate:.

To include the three caliphs  fabricated edition is that in addition to the above" Abu Bakr is its foundation, Umar it’s walls, Uthman its roof ".

But that always go in vain. as there is  no intellectual work / book by three caliphs.

Wasalam

 

12 hours ago, Hassan Y said:

It took Umar 10 years to memorize a surah lol.

 

Dont derail the thread. If you dont have anything to say about main topic then do not post.

Every caliph was used to give sermon on every friday. But the data was not compiled and preserved, so we have only few sermons from first three caliphs.

We have many sermons from Imam Ali a.s. But point is that how many of them are truly authentic. In case of sermon 3, truth is in front of you in the OP.

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10 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

@The Straight Path @skyweb1987

Baqir Majlisi collected all versions of this sermon in bihar ul anwar, not just one or two chains. And none of them is sahih. See the links in OP for verification.

All of the text written in the Bihar ul Anwar is not considered authentic by most of the Shia historians yet it has an important position because of the hadith narrated by the members of Ahl albaayt. This need a separate thread for discussion.

10 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Authenticity is important not the views of scholars or their personal acceptance. Same ibn Hadid in his commentary on sermon 226 that these words of Imam Ali a.s were in praise of Umar a.s during his janaza. There are so many big contradictions in nahjul balgha. All can not be true. Many sermons are fabrications. And from OP its crystal clear that sermon 3 is a fabrication.

 

10 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

We have many sermons from Imam Ali a.s. But point is that how many of them are truly authentic. In case of sermon 3, truth is in front of you in the OP.

All the supposition for fabrications of Sermon 3 have been completely refuted and rejected by shia and sunni historians as given in my earlier response. (The link is given below:)

:Wasalam

 

 

Edited by skyweb1987

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14 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Dont derail the thread. If you dont have anything to say about main topic then do not post.

Every caliph was used to give sermon on every friday. But the data was not compiled and preserved, so we have only few sermons from first three caliphs.

We have many sermons from Imam Ali a.s. But point is that how many of them are truly authentic. In case of sermon 3, truth is in front of you in the OP.

Your fake misguided and confused theories were already rebutted by others. Its another useless and futile attempt by you to confuse people.

Wahabis have a problem with Nahjul Balaga - in other news the Pope is catholic, pigs don't fly and sun produces heat.

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13 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

All of the text written in the Bihar ul Anwar is not considered authentic by most of the Shia historians yet it has an important position because of the hadith narrated by the members of Ahl albaayt. This need a separate thread for discussion.

Whatever is in bihar ul anwar is from previous books of tashayyu. Its like all previous shia books combined in one. Just like kutub arba combined in book Wasail shia.

Check this. Links from previous books are also there. http://ablibrary.net/فارسی/کتابها/7645_بحار الأنوار(29)/صفحه_545

 

13 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

All the supposition for fabrications of Sermon 3 have been completely refuted and rejected by shia and sunni historians as given in my earlier response. (The link is given below:)

Job of a historian is to collect data not to authenticate. They have just given their opinion. Same ibn Hadid and other mutazillah said sermon 226 is in praise of Umar a.s. So, then also accept this from historians. Sayed Razi who compiled nahjul balagha was not even a historian. He just collected data and never provided sources from where he got this data. So that we can verify.

 

Edited by Fahad Sani

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9 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Your fake misguided and confused theories were already rebutted by others. Its another useless and futile attempt by you to confuse people.

Wahabis have a problem with Nahjul Balaga - in other news the Pope is catholic, pigs don't fly and sun produces heat.

Is nahjul balagha 100% authentic. If not then why you have a problem in discussing its authenticity.

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35 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

Is nahjul balagha 100% authentic. If not then why you have a problem in discussing its authenticity.

If yes???

I don't have a problem discussing its authenticity. I have a problem with you regurgitating whatever you find online but then don't read the response/rebuttals to it.

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10 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Job of a historian is to collect data not to authenticate. They have just given their opinion. Same ibn Hadid and other mutazillah said sermon 226 is in praise of Umar a.s. So, then also accept this from historians. Sayed Razi who compiled nahjul balagha was not even a historian. He just collected data and never provided sources from where he got this data. So that we can verify.

Why the crow is not white?

This is the problem of salafis hiding under the name of sunnis.

Edited by skyweb1987

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