Abu Hanifa and the Permissibility of Alcohol

[Don'tMakeAس]

While reading an article about a supposed fatwa from an Egyptian Sunni scholar allowing the consumption of alcohol to a certain extent, I came across this:

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According to Abo Hanifa, a renowned Islamic scholar for sharia lawmaking and often called the Great Imam, drinking alcohol without getting drunk is not sinful.

A simple Google search of this claim lead to these results:

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As for alcohol derived from honey, fig, wheat, barley or corn, it is impermissible and filthy when used *as an intoxicant*: that is, as intoxicants are used, in an amount that intoxicates, or if used in vain (lahw).

If not used in any such manner, it would be permissible and not filthy.

This ruling differs from the above since it is based on hadiths that are not decisive and unequivocal, although they are rigorously authentic (sahih), and since it is based also on legal analogy (qiyas).

[Mawsili, Ikhtiyar; Marghinani, Hidaya; Maydani, Lubab]

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Abu Hanifa, taking a literal view (harfiyyah), held that "wine" (Khamr in Quranic/classical Arabic), i.e. the fermented juice of dates or grapes, was absolutely prohibited. Hence he thought it was permissible to drink small non-intoxicating amounts of other alcoholic beverages (e.g. made from honey or grains)

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yes that is right Imam Abu-Hanifa ruled that alcohol which are not of grapes and dates are ok to consume for a boost of energy/strength as long as it does not intoxicate [i.e, a little amount, that is not enough to intoxicate]

His companion, Abu-Yusuf agreed with him

Quote

According to Imaam Abu Hanifa, alcohol from grapes or dates extract is 
absolutely prohibited. However, drinks extracted from wheat, barley, sugar 
cane, etc. is permissible to the extent that they do not intoxicate. 
(Kawkabud Durri).

and Allah Ta’ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai 
FATWA DEPT.

 

Any thoughts?

[wolverine]

1 hour ago, Shaykh Patience101 said:

Any thoughts?

Wow! The host asked the question I want to know, Did Abu Hanifah drink intoxicants (other than grapes and dates)? 

[Hameedeh]

16 hours ago, Shaykh Patience101 said:

Any thoughts?

The guest Professor Saad Hilali was quite shocking in what he said. I am wondering if the Hanafi madhab has more followers than Hanbali, Maliki or Shafi'i.  

[Hassan-]

14 hours ago, hameedeh said:

The guest Professor Saad Hilali was quite shocking in what he said. I am wondering if the Hanafi madhab has more followers than Hanbali, Maliki or Shafi'i.  

Hanifa madhab is definitely the most followed of all 4 schools.

[Hameedeh]

48 minutes ago, Hassan Y said:

Hanifa madhab is definitely the most followed of all 4 schools.

Yes, you are right. I read that at Wikipedia.  

[sidnaq]

Wow i read this but some muslims in the instagram comment section some said oh we are not allowed to sit at a table whwre there isnt alcohol and this is permissible?.r there further rulings or statements made by sunni scholars on this issue? .lol wow i read this and was thinking shia is much better than this

[Mansur Bakhtiari]

Marja'iyyah is sooo much better

 

[Shian e Ali]

1 hour ago, sidnaq said:

Wow i read this but some muslims in the instagram comment section some said oh we are not allowed to sit at a table whwre there isnt alcohol and this is permissible?.r there further rulings or statements made by sunni scholars on this issue? .lol wow i read this and was thinking shia is much better than this

Well, for some reason this issue isn't highlighted among Hanafi Sunnis. All they know is that wine, regardless of what it's made from, is Haraam. I'm not sure why the scholars didn't solve the issue. Maybe they think that it's not worth sharing because it's absurd or maybe they just want to hide it to show how great Imam Abu Hanifa was. Regardless of that, Hanafi Sunnis don't consider it to be lawful (here in Pakistan), even if Imam Abu Hanifa thought it was. So, mocking them for saying "We are not allowed to sit where there is alcohol" isn't right. But yes, Shi'a beliefs are much more logical than Sunni beliefs can ever be.

[gajarkahalva]

And he has this fatwa all because of Umars love for nabeedh

[Islandsandmirrors]

This is the strangest nonsense I've read in a while. 

Its like saying, "Oh it's okay to smoke pot, as long as you don't get too high." 

[Islandsandmirrors]

6 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

The difference is if the drink has not fermented you won't become intoxicated regardless of the amount, it is the same view as the shia view.

But you do know there is no such thing as non alcoholic beverages, right? Non alcoholic beverages have less than 0.5% alcohol.

[Islandsandmirrors]

[gajarkahalva]

40 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Read above.

Yeah.    Its still at least one of the basis fermented or not

[YAli]

3 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Imam Sadiq عليهم السلام says we drink nabeedh as long as it is not fermented.
Abu Hanifa said the same.
Neither of them said 'it's ok to drink alcohol as long as you don't get intoxicated'.
They all agree that if it has fermented then there is a possibility of intoxication, and that makes every drop of it haram.

Fiqh terminology: النبيذ - مسكر- خمر - alcohol

That's all fair and good, but towards the end of the video the Dr. said that '"those people who read Abu Hanifa's verdict and find it disgusting, then good for them, then can happily go to another doctrine/sheikh, whereas those who drink secretly, why should they drink secretly when they can do so without guilt and follow Abu Hanifa". 

Seriously this is a shock. Perhaps this is why drinking is quite open in Turkey. 

From what i understood, i can get home tonight from work, and i can open a can of FOSTERS beer, and drink it, knowing that i won't get tipsy?? (Sure, he had earlier countered that a drop of intoxicating liquid is haraam, but them why did he say about people who drink secretly can do so openly and guilt free? and also he seems to be of the view that it only applies to Grapes and Dates). 

This is quite a shock. 

[Fahad Sani]

 

@Shaykh Patience101 @wolverine @hameedeh @Hassan Y @Shian e Ali @Mansur Bakhtiari @sidnaq @gajarkahalva

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

According to the Hanafi madhab, all intoxicants are forbidden.
They allowed the drinking of nabeedh as long as it had not fermented.
As for the hadd for drinking, this is debated, and one is punished if he is no longer sober.
Conclusion therefore is oversimplified in the media which presents that Abu Hanifa said it's ok to drink alcohol. 
The views of the sheikh does not conform with the orthodox Hanafi madhab.
Rather all intoxicants are forbidden, and if someone does drink before fermentation then it is permissible in the case of nabeedh only. If one drank it after fermentation it is still haram but there is no hadd unless he was no longer sober.
This is no different to what the scholars narrated from the Imams عليهم اللسلام.

دعائم الإسلام: وعن جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام أنه قال الحلال من النبيذ أن تنبذه وتشربه من يومه ومن الغد فإذا تغير فلا تشربه ونحن نشربه حلوا قبل أن يغلى

Want to add something more to it.

Here is everything about NABIDH from authentic ahlul sunnah books. https://www.sunnah.com/search/?q=nabidh

Here are few narrations regarding NABIDH.

Abu Qatada, on the authority of his father, reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said this: Do not prepare Nabidh by mixing nearly ripe dates and fresh dates together, and do not prepare Nabidh by mixing grapes and dates together, but prepare Nabidh from each (one of them) separately. Sahih Muslim 1988 a

Ibn Umar reported that he was forbidden to prepare Nabidh by mixing unripe dates and fresh dates, and dates with grapes. Sahih Muslim 1991 a

'Uqba b. Huraith said:

I heard Ibn 'Umar saying: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) forbade (the preparation of Nabidh) in a green pitcher (besmeared with pitch), in varnished jar, and in gourd, and he said: Prepare Nabidh in small waterskins. Sahih Muslim 1997 l

Thumama b. Hazn Al-Qushairi reported:

I met 'A'isha and asked her (about the utensils in which) Nabidh (may be prepared). She narrated to me that a group of 'Abd al-Qais came to Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) and asked: Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) about Nabidh. He (the Holy Prophet) forbade them to prepare Nabidh in varnished jar, hollow stumps and gourd and green pitcher. Sahih Muslim 1995 d

'A'isha reported:

We prepared Nabidh for Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) in a waterskin, the upper part of which was tied and it (the waterskin) had a hole (in its lower part). We prepared the Nabidh in the morning and he drank it in the evening and we prepared the Nabidh in the night, and he would drink it in the morning. Sahih Muslim 2005 b

 

It was narrated that Bassam said:

"I asked Abu Ja'far about Nabidh and he said: " 'Ali bin Husain, may Allah be pleased with him, would have Nabidh made for him at night, and he would drink it in the morning, and he would have Nabidh made in the morning and he would drink it at night.'" Sunan an-Nasa'i 5741

 

 

[Don'tMakeAس]

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

@Shaykh Patience101 @wolverine @hameedeh @Hassan Y @Shian e Ali @Mansur Bakhtiari @sidnaq @gajarkahalva

According to the Hanafi madhab, all intoxicants are forbidden.
They allowed the drinking of nabeedh as long as it had not fermented.
As for the hadd for drinking, this is debated, and one is punished if he is no longer sober.
Conclusion therefore is oversimplified in the media which presents that Abu Hanifa said it's ok to drink alcohol. 
The views of the sheikh does not conform with the orthodox Hanafi madhab.
Rather all intoxicants are forbidden, and if someone does drink before fermentation then it is permissible in the case of nabeedh only. If one drank it after fermentation it is still haram but there is no hadd unless he was no longer sober.
This is no different to what the scholars narrated from the Imams عليهم اللسلام.

دعائم الإسلام: وعن جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام أنه قال الحلال من النبيذ أن تنبذه وتشربه من يومه ومن الغد فإذا تغير فلا تشربه ونحن نشربه حلوا قبل أن يغلى

 

42 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I am clarifying that the problem is quoting Abu Hanifa as the source, since this is to do with Sheikh Khaled Al-Gendy.

I think you are the one confusing what the primary source is saying here.

First of all, we're discussing the ruling of Abu Hanifa, not the Hanafi madhab. Later Hanafi scholars have disagreed with this view, which is peculiar to Abu Hanifa in the history of Islam.

Secondly, I called the fatwa of Al-Gendy 'supposed' because he never actually gave it. That was simply what sparked my search. Again, Abu Hanifa is the only scholar that has ever given this ruling.

Lastly and most importantly, this discussion has nothing to do with nabeedh. Abu Hanifa's ruling is that alcohol extracted from wheat, barley, or sugar is consummable in small amounts, not just the liquid before fermentation. No more thread derailations, please.

Read through this detailed article if you don't believe me:

http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011/10/16/did-imam-abu-hanifa-distinguish-between-the-legal-rulings-for-wine-and-beer/

@Fahad Sani

Edited February 20, 2017 by Shaykh Patience101

[YAli]

i know wiki is not the best source, but i thought i'd share this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabidh

[YAli]

Just now, Shaykh Patience101 said:

ntly, this discussion has nothing to do with nabeedh. Abu Hanifa's ruling is that alcohol extracted from wheat, barley, or sugar is consummable in small amounts, not just the liquid before fermentation.

Read through this detailed article if you don't believe me:

http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011/10/16/did-imam-abu-hanifa-distinguish-between-the-legal-rulings-for-wine-and-beer/

@Fahad Sani

Yes, you hit the nail on the head. This is was what i was pointing to in my earlier comment. 

It seems fairly flawed logic to say because intoxicating drinks were made haraam and just because in that era, or area, they just happened to make them from grapes and dates, then intoxicating drinks from other sources must be fine. This is incorrect logic to me. My understanding of our religion is that Allah forbade 'intoxication' - be it from grape, date, or even a pineapple if that were possible. 

[Don'tMakeAس]

3 minutes ago, YAli said:

It seems fairly flawed logic to say because intoxicating drinks were made haraam and just because in that era, or area, they just happened to make them from grapes and dates, then intoxicating drinks from other sources must be fine. This is incorrect logic to me. My understanding of our religion is that Allah forbade 'intoxication' - be it from grape, date, or even a pineapple if that were possible. 

Yes, Abu Hanifa arrived at this ingenious conclusion by his literal translation of the word 'khamr' as only referring to alcohol derived from grapes.

[Fahad Sani]

53 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

* Any Hanafis on SC, please verify. @Fahad Sani

No brother. I am not hanafi.

THIS may help. It seems Abu Hanifa did a mistake here, if reference is valid.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Fahad Sani

[Islamic Salvation]

Nabidh is produced by soaking fruit until it ferments and becomes sweet. It is not intoxicating in all stages of preparation. This adds to the problem because one can say Nabidh and mean the non-intoxicating juice.

The dispute boils down to the scope of the Qur’an’s prohibition on wine (Khamr) - is this limited only to wine drinking or includes all intoxicants.

Many Iraqi jurists [including Abu Hanifa] permit Nabidh. 

Such Hanafis argue that the text prohibiting wine has to be interpreted within the context of the period in which it was revealed. They claim that Nabidh was a common drink ingested during the time of the prophet in Madina [we have evidence for this in one of our narrations in al-Kafi, but it makes clear that the Nabidh which was sanctioned by the prophet was a non-intoxicating one]. They also cite examples of prominent companions such as Umar, Abu Dharr and many of the Tabi’in who supposedly continued to drink Nabidh even after the prophet’s death. 

They also have a report from Ibn Mas’ud who was considered the bed-rock of teaching people the Shar’iah in Kufa [and which the Abu Hanifa school tried to claim descent from] deeming it permissible though the report continues to say that he himself did not drink it.

Permissibility of drinking Nabidh is also attributed to Abu Hanifa’s direct teacher Ibrahim al-Nakhai. Even a contemporary rival of Abu Hanifa who also resided in Kufa i.e. Ibn Abi Layla (d. 148) is said to have drank it liberally. This is also attributed to the renowned judges of Kufa - Shurayh (d. 80) and Sharik (d. 177). 

It seems that this issue was localized to Iraq because the Hijazi jurists like Malik and Shafi’i did not allow it, and even within Iraq dissenting voices increased. A significant break from this Iraqi tradition was the Kufan judge Ibn Shubruma (d. 144) who outrightly banned it. The proof used by him was the prophetic Hadith “anything that intoxicates is wine”.

There is also an Asl in their Madhhab which states that any legislation having to do with a general concern (drinking was a widespread practice) would have been made known by explicit statements and not implicit ones (the lack of explicit statements is to them a tacit permission for allowance). Furthermore, a blanket prohibition would have been reflected by Tawatur and not Akhbar Ahad (isolated reports).

They also claim that since there exist both sets of reports, those seeming to indicate permissibility and those seeming to indicate prohibition - these two sets should be reconciled. Reports that equate wine with all intoxicants should be read in such a way so as not to contradict reports permitting non-wine intoxicants such as Nabidh. How? Non-wine intoxicants should be considered Khamr in a figurative sense when they do in fact intoxicate, not because they have the capacity to intoxicate.

The Hanafis also argued that since all Muslims consider people who declare as lawful what God has unambiguously prohibited to be Kafirs, the fact that no one accused the Kufan jurists who permitted Nabidh to be Kafirs was an admission that even their opponents acknowledge that the prohibition is not solidly grounded in the text.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Islamic Salvation

[Islamic Salvation]

Obviously in our Madhhab, It is clear that every intoxicant is considered to be equivalent to Khamr, and Khamr is Haram.

Also, what intoxicates if it is much is Haram even if it is less.

 محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن معاوية بن وهب قال: قلت لابي عبدالله عليه السلام: إن رجلا من بني عمي وهو رجل من صلحاء مواليك أمرني أن أسألك عن النبيذ فأصفه لك، فقال عليه السلام له: أنا أصفه لك قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: كل مسكر حرام فما أسكر كثيره فقليله حرام، قال: قلت: فقليل الحرام يحله كثير الماء فرد عليه بكفه مرتين لا لا

In a Sahih Narration from Muawiya b. Wahb who said: I said to Abi Abdillah عليه السلام - a man from the sons of my uncle, who is also from the righteous ones among your followers ordered me to ask you about Nabidh - should I describe it to you? he عليه السلام said: I will describe it for you, the messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: every intoxicant is prohibited, and whatever intoxicates in large quantity then even small quantity of it is forbidden, I said: so the small quantity of what is prohibited can it be made permissible by large quantity of water, so he replied to him with his palm - [indicating] No, No (twice).

أبوعلي الاشعري، عن محمد بن عبدالجبار، عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن علي بن النعمان، عن محمد بن مروان، عن الفضيل بن يسار، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: سألته عن النبيذ فقال: حرم الله عزوجل الخمر بعينها وحرم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله من الاشربة كل مسكر

In another Narration from Fudhayl b. Yasar from Abi Ja'far عليه السلام, he said: I asked him about Nabidh, so he replied: Allah Mighty and Majestic prohibited Khamr (wine) explicitly, and the messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله prohibited all that intoxicates among drinks.

--> It also becomes apparent that the way that Nabidh was being produced changed, and this made even a little of it to be Haram.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Islamic Salvation

[Islamic Salvation]

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن صفوان الجمال قال: كنت مبتلى بالنبيذ معجبا به فقلت لابي عبدالله عليه السلام: جعلت فداك أصف لك النبيذ قال: فقال لي: بل أنا أصفه لك قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: كل مسكر حرام وما أسكر كثيره فقليله حرام، فقلت له: هذا نبيذ السقاية بفناء الكعبة فقال لي: ليس هكذا كانت السقاية إنما السقاية زمزم أفتدري من أول من غيرها؟ قال: قلت: لا، قال: العباس بن عبدالمطلب كانت له حبلة أفتدري ما الحبلة؟ قلت: لا، قال: الكرم فكان ينقع الزبيب غدوة ويشربونه بالعشي وينقعه بالعشي ويش بونه من الغد يريد به أن يكسر غلظ الماء عن الناس وإن هؤلاء قد تعدوا فلا تشربه ولا تقربه

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ali b. al-Hakam from Safwan the Cameleer who said: I was afflicted by Nabidh and liked it greatly, so I said to Abi Abdillah عليه السلام: may I be made your ransom - should I describe for you the Nabidh? So he said to me: rather I will describe it for you, the messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: every intoxicant is prohibited, and whatever intoxicates in large quantity then even a small quantity of it is prohibited, I said to him: here is the Nabidh of Siqaya (giving water to pilgrims) nearby to the Ka’ba [i.e. they were providing Nabidh to pilgrims after making Tawaf], so he said to me: this is not how Siqaya was, Siqaya was done using Zam Zam water, do you know the first one who changed that practice? I said: no, he said: al-Abbas b. Abd al-Muttalib, he had a Habala - do you know what a Habala is? I said: no, he said: a grape-vine, so he (Abbas) began to soak grapes in the water in the morning and they used to drink it at night [i.e. not even a full day passes], and at other times he used to soak it at night and they used to drink it the next morning, he wanted by doing this to lessen the bitterness of the water in service of the people, as for these [contemporary supervisors] - they have exceeded the limit, so do not drink it nor come near it [i.e. because it is Najis].

This shows that most of the Nabidh at that time (including the one in Iraq) was prohibited by the Imam. It becomes clear that the Nabidh of Iraq was clearly different from what was known in prophetic times in Madina [or even in Jahiliyya when al-Abbas was making Siqaya]. 

However this was allowed by Abu Hanifa, and this is a great shame for him, and he was rightly castigated for it. For even if he claims that he allows it so long as it does not reach level to intoxicate, then something that intoxicates in large quantity is not allowed in small quantity even a single drop.

[Islamic Salvation]

37 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Kufa had a mix of sects. Who exactly is the Imam عليه السلام referring to?
Does this include Abu Hanifa or other contemporaries ? Since Muhammad Shaibani clarified Abu Hanifa's view.
Please provide quote from Abu Hanifa himself.

What is clear to me is that there was a Nabidh which is Halal, because it does not intoxicate even if drunk in large amounts. But there was a Nabidh which would intoxicate in large amounts, wich many jurists in Iraq, prominent among them Abu Hanifa permitted, though they put the caveat that one should not drink it until becoming intoxicated.

And this is Haram to us because as the messenger of Allah said - What intoxicates in large amounts is also forbidden in small amounts. This was the whole crux of the controversy, otherwise there would be no controversy. And later Hanafi apologists tried to ameliorate and lessen the significance of Abu Hanifa's position, while others disagreed with him outright.

Most of the companions who came to ask the Imam about Nabidh were Kufans, and we all know who the leading contemporary scholar in Kufa was, thus, the Imam prohibiting it to them is a circumstantial indicator about Abu Hanifa. However, there is also the debate between Mu'min al-Taq and Abu Hanifa in al-Kafi:

سأل أبوحنيفة أبا جعفر محمد بن النعمان صاحب الطاق فقال له: يا أبا جعفر ماتقول في المتعة أتزعم أنها حلال؟ قال: نعم، قال: فما يمنعك أن تأمر نساء ك أن يستمتعن ويكتسبن عليك، فقال له أبوجعفر: ليس كل الصناعات يرغب فيها وإن كانت حلالا وللناس أقدار ومراتب يرفعون أقدارهم ولكن ماتقول يا أبا حنيفة في النبيذ أتزعم أنه حلال؟ فقال: نعم، قال: فما يمنعك أن تقعد نساء ك في الحوانيت نباذات فيكتسبن عليك؟ فقال أبوحنيفة: واحدة بواحدة وسهمك أنفذ

al-Shaybani disagreed with his teacher and his view has been taken as the Fatwa for most of the Hanafis. But this does not change the accusation against Abu Hanifa.

قال ابن رشد الحفيد في بداية المجتهد: وأما الأنبذة فإنهم اختلفوا في القليل منها الذي لا يسكر، وأجمعوا على أن المسكر منها حرام فقال جمهور فقهاء الحجاز وجمهور المحدثين: قليل الأنبذة وكثيرها المسكرة حرام، وقال العراقيون: إبراهيم النخعي من التابعين وسفيان الثوري وابن أبي ليلى وشريك وابن شبرمة وأبو حنيفة وسائر فقهاء الكوفيين وأكثر علماء البصريين: إن المحرم من سائر الأنبذة المسكرة هو السكر نفسه لا العين، وسبب اختلافهم تعارض الآثار والأقيسة في هذا الباب

 الدر المختار: وحرمها محمد أي الأشربة المتخذة من العسل والتين ونحوهما، قاله المصنف مطلقا قليلها وكثيرها، وبه يفتى، ذكره الزيلعي وغيره واختاره شارح الوهبانية وذكر أنه مروي عن الكل

وفي حاشية ابن عابدين: والقدح الأخير المسكر هو المحرم أي على قول الإمام دون ما قبله وإن كان المفتى به قول محمد أن ما أسكر كثيره فقليله حرام

And in Mawsua al-Fiqhiyya:

الموسوعة الفقهية: وَأَمَّا نَبِيذُ الْعَسَل وَالتِّينِ وَالْبُرِّ وَالشَّعِيرِ وَنَحْوِ ذَلِكَ فَمُبَاحٌ عِنْدَ أَبِي حَنِيفَةَ وَأَبِي يُوسُفَ، بِشَرْطِ أَلاَّ يُشْرَبَ لِلَهْوٍ أَوْ طَرِبٍ، وَخَالَفَهُمَا مُحَمَّدٌ، وَرَأْيُهُ هُوَ الْمُفْتَى بِهِ عِنْدَ الْحَنَفِيَّةِ

As for Nabidh of honey, figs, wheat, barley and its like, then it is permissible for Abi Hanifa and Abi Yusuf, with the condition that it is not drunk because of desire, or to bring about change in emotion, and Muhammad differed with them in this, and it is his opinion which has been taken as the decisive one among the Hanafiyya.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Islamic Salvation

[Islamic Salvation]

23 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

No doubt the controversy exists, especially what Ibn Hazm had to say about Abu Hanifa in the issue. I would just like to see an explicit quotation from Abu Hanifa to close the matter. Otherwise it seems as if one group is misquoting him while another is defending him.

al-Tahawi (d. 321) who was himself a Hanafi and therefore quite sympathetic - quotes (or paraphrases) Abu Hanifa as saying [in his Ikhtilaf al-Ulama]:

عن أبي حنيفة: الخمر حرام ، قليلها وكثيرها ، والسكر من غيرها حرام ، وليس كتحريم الخمر ، والنبيذ المطبوخ لا بأس به ، من أي شيء كان ، وإنما يحرم منه القدر الذي يسكر

From Abi Hanifa: Khamr is Haram, whether it be less or more, and becoming intoxicated from other than Khamr is also Haram, but it is not like the prohibition of Khamr [in the sense of the quantity], and there is no problem in Nabidh, it is only forbidden from it the amount which causes intoxication.

This goes against "every intoxicant is prohibited, and whatever intoxicates in large quantity then even a small quantity of it is prohibited"

Edited February 20, 2017 by Islamic Salvation

[Mansur Bakhtiari]

At least marja have working websites. It's much better than listening to daesh-loving ijaza-waving internet Ulema.

On guy, "Shaykh" Suhaib Webb, asks people who they studied under before he answers their questions regarding his fiqh.

I'm just saying, our Marja are humble, learned, intelligent and respectable.

[Don'tMakeAس]

So a brief summary of the findings of this thread so far:

Abu Hanifa says (according to what most of the later Hanafi scholars have transmitted in their books, and what most Hanafis online seem to believe):

"الخمر حرام ، قليلها وكثيرها ، والسكر من غيرها حرام ، وليس كتحريم الخمر ، والنبيذ المطبوخ لا بأس به ، من أي شيء كان ، وإنما يحرم منه القدر الذي يسكر"

"Khamr is haram, whether it be less or more, and becoming intoxicated from other than khamr is also haram. But it is not like the prohibition of khamr [in the sense of the quantity], and there is no problem in nabidh, it is only forbidden from it the amount which causes intoxication."

[Ikhtilaf al-Ulama]

As translated by brother @Islamic Salvation.

 

The Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã says:

1. "‏ مَا أَسْكَرَ كَثِيرُهُ فَقَلِيلُهُ حَرَامٌ ‏"

"Whatever a lot of it intoxicates, a little of it is unlawful."

There are narrations on this from Sa'd, 'Aishah, 'Abdullah bin 'Amr, Ibn 'Umar, and Khawwat bin Jubair.

[Grading: Hasan]

[Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1865]

2. ‏"‏ كُلُّ مُسْكِرٍ حَرَامٌ مَا أَسْكَرَ الْفَرَقُ مِنْهُ فَمِلْءُ الْكَفِّ مِنْهُ حَرَامٌ ‏"‏ 

‏ الْحُسْوَةُ مِنْهُ حَرَامٌ ‏"‏ "

"Every intoxicant is unlawful. Whatever a faraq of it intoxicates, then a handful of it is unlawful."

"A sip of it is unlawful."

Laith bin Abi Sulaim and Ar-Rabi' bin Sabih reported similar to the narration of Mahdi bin Maimun from Abu 'Uthman Al-Ansari. Abu 'Uthman Al-Ansari's (a narrator in this chain) name is 'Amr bin Salim, and they say: "Umar bin Salim" (as well).

[Grading: Hasan]

[Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1866]

3. ‏ مَا أَسْكَرَ كَثِيرُهُ فَقَلِيلُهُ حَرَامٌ ‏"‏"

"If a large amount of anything causes intoxication, a small amount of it is prohibited."

[Grading: Hasan Sahih]

[Sunan Abi Dawud 3681]

 

What Ayesha says:

"سَمِعْتُ عَائِشَةَ، سَأَلَهَا أُنَاسٌ كُلُّهُمْ يَسْأَلُ عَنِ النَّبِيذِ، يَقُولُ نَنْبِذُ التَّمْرَ غُدْوَةً وَنَشْرَبُهُ عَشِيًّا وَنَنْبِذُهُ عَشِيًّا وَنَشْرَبُهُ غُدْوَةً ‏.‏ قَالَتْ لاَ أُحِلُّ مُسْكِرًا وَإِنْ كَانَ خُبْزًا وَإِنْ كَانَتْ مَاءً ‏.‏ قَالَتْهَا ثَلاَثَ مَرَّاتٍ ‏.‏ "

"I heard 'Aishah when some people asked her about Nabidh, saying we soak dates in the morning and drink it in the evening, or we soak them in the evening and drink them in the morning. She said: 'I do not permit any intoxicant even if it were bread or even if it were water.' She said that three times."

[Grading: Hasan]

[Sunan an-Nasa'i 5680]

 

[Don'tMakeAس]

It is also important to note that what later hanafi scholars ruled on this matter, and what hanafis today believe, both really have very little to do with this discussion- which is purely about the grave error of Abu Hanifa in this matter.

[AleviTurkmenKhorasan]

Well Alevis also say the same. As long as you don't lose control your fine

Quran Nahl 67

[Don'tMakeAس]

1 hour ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Well Alevis also say the same.

What does Allah say?

"They question you about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness."

[2:219]

"O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters, and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful."

[5:90]

And this is in addition to all of the ahadith quoted earlier in this thread.

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Shaykh Patience101

[Islamic Salvation]

On 2/20/2017 at 3:09 PM, said:

This is why the Hanafi jurists say it is already known that intoxicants are forbidden. The entire discussion is how much can be boiled and what happens if it ferments, as Tusi also explained in his Khilaaf when discussing Abu Hanifa's view. Their conclusion being it can be boiled and consumed without restriction on amount (since this is not supposed to intoxicate). However, not a drop of fermented drink is permissible, since it is expected to intoxicate. Muhammad Shaibani later gave a stricter opinion because the initial view was being abused.

No scholar no matter how self-opinionated would get away by opposing something so basic so explicitly. Furthermore, there seems to be no direct quote from Abu Hanifa, just what others assumed he meant, which too was discussed and refuted by Shaibani et al. Furthermore, no Hanafi jurist seems to have given a fatwa according to the understanding that fermented drinks are permissible until recently, hence it all seems like a misinterpretation of the madhab.

The sources, including Durr al-Mukhtar, which is itself depended upon by Hanafis and written by one, notes that Abu Hanifa allowed non-intoxicating quantities of fermented drinks. 

All these scholars cannot be wrong in representing Abu Hanifa's opinion. They knew about Shaybani's stance and considered it diverging from that of his teacher.

He did not get away with it, there was much controversy, and he was blamed by it from some, refer to Siyar A'lam al-Nubala. 

But as the Imams of Ahlul Bayt made clear there is no Taqiyya about Nabidh.

[AleviTurkmenKhorasan]

6 hours ago, Shaykh Patience101 said:

What does Allah say?

"They question you about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness."

[2:219]

"O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters, and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful."

[5:90]

And this is in addition to all of the ahadith quoted earlier in this thread.

 

We say as long as a person is in control it's fine 

 

[Islamic Salvation]

19 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

It seems apparent that people later began to abuse the fatwa and drank the muskir claiming that they thought it hadn't fermented yet or that they were just trying to gain nutrition (it is possible that the Imam عليه السلام was criticising this group of people), this is why Shaibani closed the door.

As for controversy, it can be created either way. If the people started getting intoxicated, it becomes easy to blame the founder of the school. Abu Hanifa could be blamed for the effects of his opinion but that is not the same as saying that is what he had in mind. I believe this is what the fuqaha tried to resolve.

Nobody is arguing about al-Shaybani, he differed with Abu Hanifa about this. The question is about Abu Hanifa and the other early Kufan jurists. 

Furthermore, nobody is saying that Abu Hanifa permitted intoxication.

However, he did not consider Nabidh to fall under Khamr [which he limited to grape], and he considered non-intoxicating quantities of fermented Nabidh to be permissible. Which other scholars disagreed with.

I repeat again the words of Ibn Rushd in Bidaya

وقال العراقيون: إبراهيم النخعي من التابعين وسفيان الثوري وابن أبي ليلى وشريك وابن شبرمة وأبو حنيفة وسائر فقهاء الكوفيين وأكثر علماء البصريين: إن المحرم من سائر الأنبذة المسكرة هو السكر نفسه لا العين

And the Iraqis: Ibrahim al-Nakhai from the Tabi'in and Sufyan al-Thawri and Ibn Abi Layla and Sharik and Ibn Shubruma and Abu Hanifa and the rest of the Fuqaha of the Kufans and most of the Ulama of the Basrans said: what is prohibited in all the remaining beverages (besides wine derived from grape juice) that have the potential to intoxicate is intoxication itself and not the substance of the beverages.

Abu Hanifa and others differ here with the Hijazi scholars and the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt in that the latter maintained - what will intoxicate in large amounts is prohibited even in small amounts (i.e. the substance itself is Haram). This is a fundamental difference!  

Another piece of evidence for this which is very clear and coming from one of the foremost scholars of the Ahnaf : 

From Bada'i al-Sanai of Ala al-Diin al-Kasani (d. 587 H)

وأما الأشربة التي تتخذ من الأطعمة كالحنطة والشعير والدَخَنْ والذرة والعسل والتين والسكر ونحوها فلا يجب الحد بشربها ، لأن شربها حلال عندهما ، وعند محمد  وإن كان حراما لكن هي حرمة محل الإجتهاد فلم يكن شربها جناية محضة فلا تتعلق بها عقوبة محضة

As for the beverages which are made from grain-stuff like wheat, barley, millet, maize and honey, figs, sugar-cane and the like, then the one who drinks it is not to be punished with the Hadd, because drinking them is permissible according to them both (i.e. Abu Hanifa and Abu Yusuf), and even though it is prohibited according to Muhammad (al-Shaybani) - yet it is a prohibition based on Ijtihad, so drinking it is not considered an explicit crime, so it should not be punished with an explicit penalty [i.e. Hadd].

It cannot be claimed that this is about Nabidh before fermentation, otherwise al-Shaybani would not have prohibited it.

NOTE: Before fermentation it does not have the potential to intoxicate and no one doubts the permissibility of that. 

[Islamic Salvation]

On 2/21/2017 at 9:07 AM, said:

have the potential to intoxicate  ... this is what I've been saying about 'supposed to intoxicate' vs 'not suppose to intoxicate.

... because it is not suppose to intoxicate ...

even though it is prohibited according to Muhammad (al-Shaybani) - because of the abuse as he clearly mentioned, even Shaibani says that he did not disagree with Abu Hanifa and Abu Yusuf's opinion per se but because of its ramifications.

We disagree on the nuances.

Akhi, read Sayyid Sabiq's words in Fiqh al-Sunna carefully, maybe you can see where we differ in:

و لم يخالف في ذلك أحد – أي تحريم الخمر بجميع أنواعها – سوى فقهاء العراق ، و إبراهيم النخعي ، و سفيان الثوري ، و ابن أبي ليلى ، و شريك، و ابن شبرمة، و سائر فقهاء الكوفيين ، و أكثر علماء البصريين ، و أبي حنيفة, فإنهم قالوا: بتحريم القليل و الكثير من عصير العنب، أما ما كان من الأنبذة من غير العنب، فإنه يحرم الكثير المسكر منه ، أما القليل الذي لا يسكر، فإنه حلال

No one differed in that - that is - in prohibiting Khamr in all its forms - except for the Fuqaha of Iraq, Ibrahim al-Nakhai and Sufyan al-Thawri and Ibn Abi Layla and Sharik and Ibn Shubruma and the rest of the Fuqaha among the Kufans, and most of the Ulama among the Basrans, and Abi Hanifa - they said: small amounts and large amounts of the fermented grape juice is forbidden (I.e. it is Khamr), as for the different kinds of Nabidh apart from that of grape - then what is forbidden from them is the large amounts that cause intoxication, as for the small amounts which do not cause intoxication then it is Halal.  

When the Imams said no Taqiyya about Nabidh it was because it must have been a problem, and most of their companions came from Kufa, which was the epicenter of such belief, and the Imams made clear to their Ashab - "What has the potential to intoxicate is Haram" but Abu Hanifa says "What has the potential to intoxicate is not Haram in small amounts". And al-Shaybani went against his Shaykh in this.

The Hashiya of Ibn Abidin

وفي حاشية ابن عابدين: والقدح الأخير المسكر هو المحرم أي على قول الإمام دون ما قبله وإن كان المفتى به قول محمد أن ما أسكر كثيره فقليله حرام

The last portion which intoxicates is what Haram - that is - based on the opinion of the Imam (I.e. Abu Hanifa) - not that which precedes it, even though the Fatwa [the popular opinion of later Hanafis] is taken from the opinion of Muhammad (al-Shaybani) that whatever intoxicates in large amount, then small amount of it is Haram.

[Islamic Salvation]

Quote

السيد سابق في فقه السنة: أما ما كان من الانبذة من غير العنب، فإنه يحرم الكثير المسكر منه، أما القليل الذي لا يسكر، فإنه حلال

Sayyad Sabiq says that Abu Hanifa saw that non-grape juice that is not suppose to intoxicate is permissible.
This is very different to saying that fermented non-grape juice is permissible, which has been explicitly mentioned as being haram.

Nabidh in this context is clearly the fermented one. If not - then why is Sayyid Sabiq highlighting the Khilaf of these scholars? What is the difference of the Fuqaha of Iraq with others if not in fermented beverages?

Sayyid Sabiq is attributing to Abu Hanifa that الذي لا يسكر القليل  - the little (amount) which does not intoxicate is Halal NOT that "non-grape juice that is not supposed to intoxicate is Halal".

There is a big difference between the two, because we do not allow even this little that does not intoxicate while Abu Hanifa only prohibits drinking in large amount.

It clearly can intoxicate - Why do you think that Abu Hanifa is qualifying it to little!

Again you have ignored the evidence from Ibn Abidin which is still a standard Hanafi text to this day from the final Muhaqiq of that school.

وفي حاشية ابن عابدين: والقدح الأخير المسكر هو المحرم أي على قول الإمام دون ما قبله وإن كان المفتى به قول محمد أن ما أسكر كثيره فقليله حرام

By only prohibiting the last portion because it intoxicates - this means that it is admitted that the liquid does intoxicate in large quantity. This is also placed in juxtaposition to al-Shaybani's view which is what our Madhhab agrees with.

What more evidence do you need?

Do you accept that you can drink a liquid so long as you do not reach this last round?

 

Quote

As for the prohibition for the round that intoxicates and that prior to that it is permissible: The reason they say it is permissible is because it is not supposed to intoxicate, if the rule of anything that intoxicates is applied without restriction then many things can be haram as mentioned by Samarqandi.

قال صاحب التحفة : لأن هذا من جملة الأطعمة، ولا عبرة بالسكر، فإن في بعض البلاد قد يسكر المؤمن الخبر ونحوه البنج يسكر ولبن الرمكة يسكر

This might make sense to them in their Madhhab, but it is in opposition to what the Prophet said.

In our Madhhab, anything that is "suppose" to intoxicate is Haram.

And we apply this without restriction, provided it is in liquid form. 

All the examples he gives of what can intoxicate - if it is true that they can intoxicate - then it is Haram even one drop of them.

Although chemically speaking some of the examples given is just hyperbole used by Hanafi Fuqaha. 

 

Quote

Sarakhsi also clarifies what is meant by the last round and expanding on Samarqandi:

سرخسي في المبسوط: فإن كان يسكر بشرب الكثير منه، فذاك لا يدل على أنه يحرم تناول القليل منه كالبنج، ولبن الفرس، وأما الحديث، فنحن نقول به، وكل مسكر عندنا حرام، وذلك القدح الأخير، وروي عن أبي يوسف أنه قال في تأويله: إذا كان يشرب على قصد السكر، فإن القليل، والكثير على هذا القصد حرام، فأما إذا كان يشرب لاستمراء الطعام فلا، فهو نظير المشي على قصد الزنا يكون حراما

al-Sarakhsi is actually supporting Abu Hanifa's opinion here and making the same mistake as his Imam. He is saying that just because something intoxicates in large quantities does not mean that it is Haram to imbibe in small quantities. But this is wrong. The Hadith from the Prophet is clear, anything that intoxicates in large quantities is forbidden in smaller quantities. 

What you quote also supports my argument directly from Abu Yusuf's mouth - it places a condition that one should not drink it with the intention to get intoxicated, for if he does that with such an intention it will be forbidden, but he allows drinking it so as to aid digestion and give appetite of food because then it is not prohibited.

Again I put to you, how can you claim that they are not talking about fermented non-grape juice when Abu Yusuf allows that it can intoxicate you - just that you should not drink it for that purpose!

Also, do you think our Madhhab allows drinking such fermented non-grape juice that has the potential to intoxicate as an appetizer!

 

Quote

What the later Ahnaaf are saying is that it was given that anything which is supposed to intoxicate - grapes based or otherwise - is haram.

Not really, some of the later Ahnaf continued to hold Abu Hanifa's opinion as valid, you have just kindly quoted al-Sarakhsi above who supports drinking fermented non-grape juice.

 

Quote

What the later Ahnaaf are saying is that it was given that anything which is supposed to intoxicate - grapes based or otherwise - is haram. The issue is if a non-grape drink is boiled or nearly fermented then is that permissible? and Abu Hanifa, Abu Yusuf and Shaibani were all in agreement that it is, since they saw such substances not generally used for intoxication, for that people drank wine

You keep saying they were all in agreement while the Hanafi scholars themselves differentiate between the opinions of Abu Hanifa/Abu Yusuf and al-Shaybani. What do you know which they did not? 

This is what Mulla Ali Qari - the famous Hanafi says:

والفتوى في زماننا على قول محمد

The Fatwa is that of Muhammad in our times.

They clearly understood a difference of opinion between Abu Hanifa and al-Shaybani.

 

Quote

سير أعلام النبلاء للذهبي: قلت لوكيع  : رأيت ابن عليه يشرب النبيذ حتى يُحمل على الحمار يحتاج من يرده إلى منزله ، فقال وكيع : إذا رأيت البصري يشرب فاتهمه ، وإذا رأيت الكوفي يشرب فلا تتهمه . قلت : وكيف : قال : الكوفي يشرب تدينا ، والبصري يتركه تدينا
 

Yes, most of the Basran Ulama did allow it [Madhhab of the Iraqis], and we see here that Ibn Ulayya had to even be carried on a donkey and needs to find someone to direct him to the way home. 

And the Kufans drink the same Nabidh, but in small quantities, so that they do not get drunk [like the Basran in the example], they drink for Diin, apparently it gave them energy to do Ibada. 

I am not blaming them, I know that many of those who allowed Nabidh in Iraq were pious people, more than even us, but the point is they got it wrong.

 

Quote

What they said was in theory many things can intoxicate you, would that mean every non-grape drink is haram? So they said no it must be permissible, but knowing that it would intoxicate immediately makes it haram.

Nobody is making the ridiculous claim that because many things can intoxicate you every non-grape drink is Haram, rather, every thing that intoxicates when it is in large amounts is a Muskir, and every Muskir is Haram, for even if the Qur'an mentions only Khamr directly, but the Ahadith of the Prophet extended it to all Muskir.

 

Quote

We disagree with Abu Hanifa on many things, and he did come up with verdicts that were unacceptable, I just don't find it compelling in this case to say that he allowed small amounts of fermented non-grape drinks. All sects find a loophole in their system, this is not to speculate that the leader intended the results, though he will be criticised for not being more vigilant.

The only problem is that he allowed it. 

Nobody is speculating about Abu Hanifa's intentions.

All I am saying is that he was wrong in is opinion, and you do not want to admit even this.

Pardon me, but you do not want to deal with things that are very clear.

I just quoted to you from no less an authority than al-Kasani as saying

وأما الأشربة التي تتخذ من الأطعمة كالحنطة والشعير والدَخَنْ والذرة والعسل والتين والسكر ونحوها فلا يجب الحد بشربها ، لأن شربها حلال عندهما ، وعند محمد  وإن كان حراما لكن هي حرمة محل الإجتهاد فلم يكن شربها جناية محضة فلا تتعلق بها عقوبة محضة

As for the beverages which are made from grain-stuff like wheat, barley, millet, maize and honey, figs, sugar-cane and the like, then the one who drinks it is not to be punished with the Hadd, because drinking them is permissible according to them both (I.e. Abu Hanifa and Abu Yusuf), and even though it is prohibited according to Muhammad (al-Shaybani) - yet it is a prohibition based on Ijtihad, so drinking it is not considered an explicit crime, so it should not be punished with an explicit penalty [I.e. Hadd].

Why do you think that all the other Madhhahib said that such a one should be punished with Hadd?

Do you think it is because they drank non-fermented non-grape drinks like the way we drink pineapple juice today!

They are clearly talking about fermented non-grape drinks, and yes, Abu Hanifa and Abu Yusuf deemed this permissible and did not put any Hadd for it, while we put a Hadd for it, and al-Shaybani differed because he considered it prohibited, but he did not rule that such a one should be given Hadd.

 

Quote

The last round rule can be applied to any substance such as cough syrups, mouthwash, inhalants, even water etc, in all cases where the principle is the same, it is permissible to use them as long as the purpose is not to get intoxicated, and if you know one more will intoxicate you, then it is haram. Yet the rule 'if it intoxicates you in large amounts then even a small amount is prohibited' cannot be applied to every substance that is not supposed to be used as an intoxicant.

I don't think if you drink lots of water you will become intoxicated.

In Imami Madhhab we do not have this last round rule.

We do not care what your intention to drink is, whether you wanted to become intoxicated or not.

The famous Fatwa is that there are two conditions to rule a drink as intoxicating and hence Haram:

1) It is originally liquid
2) Large quantities of it are intoxicating

That is it.