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Talut

Proof that Isa a.s. will not return

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38 minutes ago, baqar said:

When you quote someone or something,  you should provide the reference.

In case of the Quran, the sura and verse number(s) will be useful.  

I know. I can do that in the future. However you copy/paste them in Google and you will find them without a doubt immediately.

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2 minutes ago, Talut said:

 However you copy/paste them in Google and you will find them without a doubt immediately.

You should try to make things as easy for your readers as possible.

People don't have time to do the work that you should be doing. 

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4 minutes ago, baqar said:

You should try to make things as easy for your readers as possible.

People don't have time to do the work that you should be doing. 

If you have time to waste on shiachat I'm sure you have time to do that unless you 'work' here.

But I know it's irritating sometimes when you have to gather information.

Edited by Talut

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Surah 4:157 --- tafsir al mizan by his eminence sayed Allama Muhammed Hussain tabatabai

hope it helps

However, the next verse proves or points that'Isa (a.s.) is alive and has not died yet.

QUR'AN: And there is not one of the People of the Book but he must certainly believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Resurrection, he ('Isa) shall be a witness against them: The third person singular pronouns in "believe in him" and "he shall be" refer to'Isa (a.s.). As for the pronoun in "before his death" there are various interpretations:

Some people have said: The pronoun refers to 'one' in "one of the People of the Book", meaning: each and every one among the People of the Book will believe in'Isa (a.s.) before that one dies. It will become clear to him just before his death that'Isa was the Messenger of Allah and His servant; even though that faith at that time will not benefit him at all, and'Isa will be a witness over them all on the Day of Judgment. It makes no difference whether they believed in him in a way that was beneficial to them or at a time when it was of no avail like believing at the time of death.

If we say that the pronoun "before his death" refers to'Isa (a.s.), it would support what has been narrated in some traditions that'Isa is alive, has not died and that he will come down before the Day of Resurrection and then the People of the Book, the Jews and the Christians, will believe in him. But this interpretation particularizes, without any reason, the generality of the phrase, "and there is not one of the People of the Book". But according to this explanation, the verse would mean that only those People of the Book would believe in'Isa who would be present when he would come down from the heavens, while all others who came and went after his being raised and before his coming down would not believe in him. This restricts without any reason the general meaning of the verse.

However, some have opted for this explanation and said that the pronoun refers to'Isa (a.s.) and points to their belief in him at the time of his coming down from heaven in the last days. This view relies on a tradition as we have mentioned above.

But the verse with its two parts clearly shows that'Isa (a.s.) will be a witness on all of them on the Day of Resurrection as will all of them believe in him before death. And Allah has quoted the speech of'Isa regarding this evidence in a particular way: And I was a witness over them so long as I was among them; when You did take me up You were the watcher over them and You are witness over all things (5:117). In this verse,'Isa limits his evidence for the period when he was alive among them before his being taken away, and the verse under discussion says that he would be a witness over all those who could believe in him; now if all would believe in him it means that he would not die but after all of them. This brings us to the second interpretation, that is, he is alive until now and he will return to them again so that they could believe in him. Utmost that can be said is that the one who will not be present when he will return to them second time will believe in him at the time of his death and the one who will be present at that time will have to believe in him whether willingly or under compulsion.

This verse coming after the Divine words: and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like'Isa);... Rather Allah raised him up to Himself, and Allah is Mighty, Wise, indicates that'Isa has not died and is still alive; because there seems no useful purpose in saying that all of them would believe in him under compulsion. This supports the view that their believing in'Isa before death refers to their believing in him before'Isa's death.

However, there are other verses which apparently go somehow against it. For example: And when Allah said: O'Isa! I am going to take you away completely and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve, and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the Day of Resurrection (3:55). It shows that some disbelievers in'Isa will continue upto the Day of Resurrection. Also, the verse:... and their saying: "Our hearts are covered"; Nay! Allah has set a seal upon them owing to their disbelieve, so they shall not believe except a little", shows that it is an affliction written against them, and their society, as a Jewish society, will not believe upto the Day of Resurrection. Also, the verse: And I was a witness over them so long as I was among them; when You did take me up You were the watcher over them (5:117), shows that they will be continuing after'Isa (a.s.) was taken away completely.

However, the fact is that these three verses do not go against the idea of'Isa (a.s.) being alive. The verse:... and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the Day of Resurrection, doesn't say that they would continue upto the Day of Resurrection with their identity as the People of the Book. Likewise, the Divine words: Nay! Allah has set a seal upon them owing to their disbelief, so they shall not believe except a little, only says that the true belief will not be accepted by all of them together and if at sometime they believed, that belief would cover only a few of them. Moreover, if the verse, "And there is not one of the People of the Book but he must certainly believe in him before his death", shows that they would believe in him before his death, it only mentions the belief, per se; it does not say that it would be an acceptable belief.

Likewise, the verse: When You did take me up You were the watcher over them, refers to the people, not to the Christians or the People of the Book, because the verse begins with these words: And when Allah will say: "O'Isa son of Maryam! did you say to the people, take me and my mother two gods beside Allah?" (5:116). Apart from that,'Isa (a.s.), as one of the ulu'I-azm Messengers, was sent to all the people, and when he will give evidence over their deeds it would cover the Israelites as well as others, whether they believed in him or continued as unbelievers.

In short, the verses, seen in their context and in conjunction with other related verses, show that'Isa (a.s.) did not die; he was not killed nor crucified nor did he die a natural death as we have mentioned earlier and we have written on this subject under the verse: O'Isa! I am going to take you away completely... (3:55) in the third volume of this book (Arabic Version).

A very strange explanation has been given by az-Zamakhshari in Tafsiru'I-kashshaf. He says: "This verse could possibly be interpreted in this way that there is none among all the People of the Book but he will believe in'Isa (a.s); Allah will give them life in their graves at the time of coming down of'Isa (a.s.) and will inform them of his coming down and why he has come; so they will believe in him when their believing will give them no benefit. Is it not the belief of ar-raj'ah (partial return)?"

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1 hour ago, Jafar moh said:

as not died and that he will come down before the Day of Resurrection and then the People of the Book, the Jews and the Christians, will believe in him.

I love how Sunnis and Shi'ah use verses out of context. 

Christians are excluded from this verse (4:159), it only include the Jews and not Christians. How do I know that? Well, firstly, the term "people of the book" doesn't always mean Jews + Christians, it can either mean only Jews or only Christians and sometimes both of them according to the context. 

I'd kindly advice you to read from 4:153 to 4:160 - The crimes of the Jews are mentioned and 4:153 is started with the Jews being referred as "People of the book" - From here the context starts and from this verse we know that the people of the book (4:153-4:160) are Jews and not ChristiansCONTEXT BROTHER, CONTEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EVIDENCE: 

The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, "Show us Allah outright," so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf  after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority. (4:153)

Christians didn't exist at the times of Moses, if we say that People of the book in this verse are Jews and Christians, then we have to admit that the Qur'aan provides inaccurate history. The next verses continue, but not even once are Christians mentioned, ONLY JEWS!

And We raised over them the mount for [refusal of] their covenant; and We said to them, "Enter the gate bowing humbly", and We said to them, "Do not transgress on the sabbath", and We took from them a solemn covenant. (4:154)
- The Jews entered the holy land while bowing humbly, the same is mentioned in another chapter of the Qur'aan

And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few. (4:155)
- The Jews killed the Prophets that were sent to them, 

And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander, (4:156)
- We know that the Jews slandered Mary - Read Surah Maryam

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. (4:157)
- The Jews said that they had killed the Messiah

 

WHEN YOU CONTINUE TO READ, YOU WILL SEE THAT NOT ONCE ARE CHRISTIANS MENTIONED THESE NARRATIVES ARE ABOUT JEWS. THUS, IF SCHOLARS WANT TO EXPLAIN 4:159 AS JEWS AND CHRISTIANS BELIEVING IN HIM BEFORE HIS DEATH, THEN THEY'VE TO DISMISS THE ENTIRE CONTEXT, WHICH IS A BAD THING! IN FACT, VERSES AFTER 4:159 ARE STILL ABOUT JEWS. IN 4:160, 4:161 (THEY MADE USURY HALAL).

THESE VERSES ARE ABOUT JEWS... ANYONE WITH COMMON SENSE, READING THE SURROUNDING VERSES WILL GET THAT... SO, I DO HOPE THAT SUNNIS AND SHI'AH CAN STOP USING VERSES OUT OF CONTEXT! 
 

Edited by IjazLinorAhmad

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8 hours ago, IjazLinorAhmad said:

x

you don't think that I said that all, do you?

As I stated, it was an excerpt of the tafsir of Allama tabatabai, an influential and one if, if not, the most learned shia scholar of his time. I would take what he says into more detail, and I would advise that you be careful taking things from answering-christianity as a source of information 

 

To be fully honest I did not know that we had some Muslims who did not believe in the return of Jesus until just recently.. @IjazLinorAhmad, if you don't believe that Jesus will have a second coming, do you believe that we will have the return of the 12th imam, or anyone for that matter?

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1 hour ago, Jafar moh said:

you don't think that I said that all, do you?

As I stated, it was an excerpt of the tafsir of Allama tabatabai, an influential and one if, if not, the most learned shia scholar of his time. I would take what he says into more detail, and I would advise that you be careful taking things from answering-christianity as a source of information 

 

To be fully honest I did not know that we had some Muslims who did not believe in the return of Jesus until just recently.. @IjazLinorAhmad, if you don't believe that Jesus will have a second coming, do you believe that we will have the return of the 12th imam, or anyone for that matter?

Where is the 12th Imam mentioned in the Qur'aan? Perhaps, it'd be great if you could start out by citing a verse to establish that there is a 12th Imam who will return and dig out Abu bakr and Umar from their graves and kill them, lol. :grin: 

Does the Qur'aan say that someone will return? Mahdi? Jesus? Since this is a matter of eschatology, God mentions the steps of making wudu in the Qur'aan, he mentions even small details, furu' al-din (salat, zakah, fast, khums etc.), but doesn't mention something that is so important, the return of your 12th Imam!!!! 

Well dear brother, the most enlightened Shi'ah scholar is not that learned if his interpretation contradict the context of the Qur'aan, the book of Allaah. Maybe your scholars need some lessons how to read and especially READING IN CONTEXT. From 4:153 to 4:161, these verses are about Jews. I'd advice you to read these verses several times and then point out to me where Christianity is mentioned in these verses. You can even get some help from your "most learned" Shi'ah scholars.

Your "most learned" scholar said: "...has not died and that he will come down before the Day of Resurrection and then the People of the Book, the Jews and the Christians, will believe in him... " I do wonder, how Christians came into 4:153-161. 

P.S: I don't take anything from answering-christianity

Peace.. 

 

Edited by IjazLinorAhmad

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The Return of Christ is an imported belief from christianity incorporated into Islam by Bible-influenced muslims or/and converted jews/christians. 

 It was forbidden to write down ahaadith for a long time so people started to fill in the gap with Biblical texts provided by converted Rabbi's and Monks like Ka'ab al-Ahbar.

Some Shia here will know him for sure.

For those who don't but interrested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka'ab_al-Ahbar

https://www.al-islam.org/prohibition-recording-hadith-sayyid-ali-al-shahristani

Edited by Talut

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1 hour ago, Talut said:

The Return of Christ is an imported belief from christianity incorporated into Islam by Bible-influenced muslims or/and converted jews/christians. 

 It was forbidden to write down ahaadith for a long time so people started to fill in the gap with Biblical texts provided by converted Rabbi's and Monks like Ka'ab al-Ahbar.

Some Shia here will know him for sure.

For those who don't but interrested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka'ab_al-Ahbar

https://www.al-islam.org/prohibition-recording-hadith-sayyid-ali-al-shahristani

Lolz, the people of Bible believed that Jesus died but we did not believed in it. Read about the verses in Quran and this was known to Muslims since he did not died so he had to come back as told by the traditions of Prophet. Ahadith or traditions were not in a contained books but they were contained in record on parchments and then transferred to books with volumes.  

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Why did not we incorporated such belief from the Christians that Jesus died but will return rather we say that Jesus never died and will return and secondly, Bible says that Jesus died and was resurrected after one day and one of his companion saw him. We do not believe like that so it is not proved just because you say it. There is a huge difference between resurrection or coming into life and coming from the sky as being alive. There is also a gap of time as well. You said Jesus resurrected one day after and we say he will come back after Mehdi will come. 

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7 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Lolz, the people of Bible believed that Jesus died but we did not believed in it. Read about the verses in Quran and this was known to Muslims since he did not died so he had to come back as told by the traditions of Prophet. Ahadith or traditions were not in a contained books but they were contained in record on parchments and then transferred to books with volumes.  

Do you just parrot people? Can't you read accurately or is it something else?

It is written thet they did not killed him nor crucified him.

It is nowhere written that he did not die!

Edited by Talut

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@Talut, Christians do not believe in the Crucifixion of Jesus ? If not then why they use symbol of Cross ? Do you think that I am talking without watching ?

Secondly, I want to ask you that if you can read urdu or not so that I may tell you about 12 Imams in Quran. This is a discussion from a book which provided facts about it. 

Edited by Sindbad05

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27 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

@Talut, Christians do not believe in the Crucifixion of Jesus ? If not then why they use symbol of Cross ? Do you think that I am talking without watching ?

I only care about what the Quran is telling us.

Some muslims claim that Isa a.s. did not die because of the misinterpretation of the partial verse 'they slew nor crucified him'.

And the belief that he a.s. did not die is only to give credibility to ahaadith about his return.

Because if he a.s. did die, he a.s. would have to die a second time.

The return however is just a christian belief.

Edited by Talut

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2 minutes ago, Talut said:

I only care about what the Quran is telling us.

Some muslims claim that Isa a.s. did not die because of the misinterpretation of the partial verse 'they slew nor crucified him'.

And the belief that he a.s. did not die is only to give credibility to ahaadith about his return.

Because if he a.s. did die, he a.s. would have to die a second time.

The return however is just a christian belief.

Nope, it does not mean what you are saying lolz. nor applies to both words such as neither slew nor crucified but "neither can be left out and only nor could be used such as we use or". I think you need help of hadith to understand the Quran because not everything you can understand at your own, it is due to this that Quran asks to take help of Prophet and those who know. 

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16 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Nope, it does not mean what you are saying lolz. nor applies to both words such as neither slew nor crucified but "neither can be left out and only nor could be used such as we use or". I think you need help of hadith to understand the Quran because not everything you can understand at your own, it is due to this that Quran asks to take help of Prophet and those who know. 

So the Return of Christ is not a christian belief?

I actually do not even understand what you were saying in the first part of your reply.

Edited by Talut

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1 hour ago, Talut said:

So the Return of Christ is not a christian belief?

I actually do not even understand what you were saying in the first part of your reply.

I meant to say that you are wrong at saying that "Muslims' imported belief of Jesus from Christians". 

Our belief is entirely different from Christians, Christians said Jesus died and then was resurrected. Where as we believe that Jesus never died, and will come back after Imam Mehdi a.s. I do not know what Jesus say that how will Jesus come back but it is different from what we believe.

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7 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

I meant to say that you are wrong at saying that "Muslims' imported belief of Jesus from Christians". 

Our belief is entirely different from Christians, Christians said Jesus died and then was resurrected. Where as we believe that Jesus never died, and will come back after Imam Mehdi a.s. I do not know what Jesus say that how will Jesus come back but it is different from what we believe.

That belief is non-Quranic and only known from the Bible. 

Later on this belief crept into Islam in the form of ahaadith.

Did you ever thought about the 72 or 73 sects Islam will split into?

The Quran is protected so what is the only way left to create divisions?

:grin:

Edited by Talut

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Just now, Talut said:

That belief is non-Quranic and only known from the Bible. 

Later on this belief crept into Islam in the form of ahaadith.

Did you ever thought about the 72 or 73 sects Islam will split into?

The Quran is protected so what is the only way left to create divisions?

Islam was one and it split into two sects when Prophet PBUHHP left this world due to problem of Caliphate.

There are many Ahadith mentioned and reported which are source of Commentary for the verses that say "Jesus was not crucified". And it is also mentioned with reference to those commentaries that why was Jesus saved and for what purpose will he come back. You are not authority to challenge Quranic verses that says Jesus did not die. And the hadith that are authentic and checked by scholars. 

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·        [4:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

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[Shakir 3:55] And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

Commentary of Surah Aal-Imran 55 by Ayotullah Mehdi Poya

It is stated in Minhaj al Sadiqin that Isa was kept in custody in a room during the night following which he was to be crucified in the morning. At daybreak, Judas the hypocrite companion of Isa, who had betrayed him to the Roman soldiers, went into the room to escort Isa to the place of crucifixion. As soon as he entered the room, he was miraculously transformed into a person who resembled Isa. When he came out of the room the Roman soldiers took him to the cross and crucified him, in spite of his loud and desperate protestations.

In Badshah Husain's English translation of the Holy Quran, Sale is quoted on page 14 of Vol. 11. as under:

"It is supposed by several that this story was an original of Mohammad's but they are certainly mistaken, for several sectarians held the same opinion, long before his time. The Basilidians (Irrenus I.I.C 23 and C. Epiphan Haeres 24 num III) in the very beginning of Christianity, denied that Christ himself suffered, but that Simon the Cyraracean was crucified in his place. The Corinthians before them and the Carpocratians next (to name no more of those who affirmed Jesus to have been a mere man) did believe the same thing; it was not himself, but one of his followers very like him that was crucified. Photius tells us that he read a book entitled "The Journeys of the Apostles", relating the acts of Peter, John, Andrew, Thomas and Paul, and among other things contained therein, this was one, that Christ was not crucified, but another in his stead, and that therefore he laughed at his crucifiers (Photius Bible Cod 114, col. 291) or those who thought they had crucified him (Tolands' Nazrenus p. 17 and c.)"

The Jewish plot to kill Isa was prevented by the best of planners, the almighty Allah.

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6 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

·        and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him,

and they killed him not for sure.

So are you telling me that when people try to kill or crucify somebody and they do not succeed, he will not die?

 

Edited by Talut

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4 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

I am saying that sometimes people try to do something but fail in it and they fall into doubt about it. 

Yes they failed to kill him, they did not crucified him but why does that implicate that he did not die?

Edited by Talut

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1 minute ago, Talut said:

Yes they failed to kill him, they did not crucified him but why does that implicate he did not die?

Because it is said in hadith pertaining to your question that Jesus was saved for he has duties to fulfill at the end times when he will come after Imam Mehdi a.s.

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7 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Because it is said in hadith pertaining to your question that Jesus was saved for he has duties to fulfill at the end times when he will come after Imam Mehdi a.s.

Why didn't he a,s, stay on earth like Imam Mehdi a.s.?

Edited by Talut

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5 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

It is not necessary that everything should be mentioned in detail in Quran, Prophet PBUHHP expounded every thing which required explanations by him. 

Not everything which is atributed to the Prophet s,a,w,a,s, is his. And what is sahih to a Sunni doesn't have to be Sahih to a Sunni.

Second of all. As an ex-christian I know where this belief in the Return of Christ comes from.

Edited by Talut

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