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Channah

Mahdi that will rule the world with Isa?

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Forgive me if I'm wrong but is it not also one of the pillars of Islam in believing in the Mahdi? Where they differ is between whether or not Dajjal is an actual individual or a system that we are living under which is in constant debate :P. BUT to answer your question absolutely, it's an essential belief!

Edited by OneOfTheSyyeds
Grammar

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I have read this, also, regarding the last days:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 008, Book 073, Hadith Number 224. 

Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "The most awful name in Allah's sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the king of kings)."

Who is the King of Kings?

Is it a reference to the Jewish/Christian book of Revelation, where 2 characters (called the beast and the false prophet) rule the whole earth for 3.5 years, and then after that it is said:

"Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His banner a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

 

Is this true that this is the same King of Kings? The one called The Word of God? Will He destroy the Mahdi and Isa, calling them a beast and a false prophet? Is this why it is the most awful name?

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I have read in Islam that there will be a coming Mahdi that will rule the world with Isa by his side. Is this a well known belief? Or is it more of a rare doctrine?

Yes it's a fact, with various hadiths supporting it.

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2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Well known, the difference is Sunnis believe it is Nabi Isa عليه السلام who is the ruler whilst Imam al-Mahdi عليه السلام is secondary.

Have you read brother that Esa a.s will be praying behind Imam e Mehdi a.s, it is well known hadith famous both among shias and Sunnis.

Edited by Sindbad05

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3 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Well known, the difference is Sunnis believe it is Nabi Isa عليه السلام who is the ruler whilst Imam al-Mahdi عليه السلام is secondary.

No. Both will rule. First Imam Mahdi a.s and after his death Prophet Issa a.s will rule. Prophet Issa a.s rule will be more than Imam Mahdi a.s.

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Salam,

I believe that after a certain period after the death of the Messenger s.a.w.a.s., many converted jews and christians started to incorporate teachings and doctrines from al-Kitab into Islam.

Therefore I do not believe in the return of Christ, nor in the 12 rulers.which are all Biblical concepts.

If Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. is the last Messenger than how can Isa a.s. re-appear later on and lead the Ummah? It's not even in line with Quran.

Edited by Talut

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9 hours ago, Channah said:

I have read this, also, regarding the last days:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 008, Book 073, Hadith Number 224. 

Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "The most awful name in Allah's sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the king of kings)."

Who is the King of Kings?

Is it a reference to the Jewish/Christian book of Revelation, where 2 characters (called the beast and the false prophet) rule the whole earth for 3.5 years, and then after that it is said:

"Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His banner a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

 

Is this true that this is the same King of Kings? The one called The Word of God? Will He destroy the Mahdi and Isa, calling them a beast and a false prophet? Is this why it is the most awful name?

The reason why it is an awful name is because the name is not applicable to a man as a man of flesh and bones is part of creation and a subject of the Most High.

Ä man can never be the King of kings. Only God is the King.

Edited by Talut

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Just now, Ozzy said:

I was highlighting the Sunni position, as for Shia:

Sure, however I said when Isa عليه السلام returns, Sunnis believe the Mahdi عليه السلام becomes his helper, while according to the Shia, it is the Mahdi عليه السلام who is the primary leader with Nabi Isa عليه السلام who will support him.

You should also add that both Shia and Sunni believe that Prophet Isa a.s will be following Imam Mehdi a.s in the prayer.

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36 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

Sure, however I said when Isa عليه السلام returns, Sunnis believe the Mahdi عليه السلام becomes his helper, while according to the Shia, it is the Mahdi عليه السلام who is the primary leader with Nabi Isa عليه السلام who will support him.

@Fahad Sani Could you please provide a reliable narration that says: "after his death Prophet Issa a.s will rule"?

You are right. First Mahdi a.s will rule. Issa a.s will come after coming of both Imam Mahdi a.s and Dajjal. This is also there in sunni hadith books. May be they are saying because Mahdi a.s will be his helper in fighting Dajjal. While some shias say Dajjal will also be killed by Mahdi a.s. On such issues confusions are there on both sides. Due to contradictory narrations.

I dont remember my reading. I will share as soon as I find it.

This thread may have the answer. Not sure.

 

Edited by Fahad Sani

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4 hours ago, Talut said:

The reason why it is an awful name is because the name is not applicable to a man as a man of flesh and bones is part of creation and a subject of the Most High.

Ä man can never be the King of kings. Only God is the King.

 

Alright. Now, I'm a bit confused. 

The One in Revelation, called "the Word of God" and "King of Kings" is Jesus/YHWH, the same man who I thought Islam calls the prophet Isa. 

 

He is the man who will call Himself "King of Kings" who calls Himself God, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit. He knows that only the Most High Elohim can be called the King of Kings, and He claims to be God Himself with this name in the book Revelation. 

 

Maybe this is different than Isa then? 

So, the man who comes and calls Himself "the King of Kings" is the Christ of the Christians, the one who says He "was dead, and is alive again." Obviously the Bible Jesus, Yahushua in Hebrew/Jewish. But this cannot be the same Isa, then, who will come and reign and not call himself the king of kings. 

If the most awful name is heard, on the future day of resurrection, then it must be that the Bible Jesus, the "King of Kings" then arrives on the scene and calls Himself that. And Isa will already be there, and this man calling himself that must be a different fellow. 

Also, since Revelation (written way before Mohammad's life) warns that the King of Kings will come and fight against and defeat the two world rulers who will have a one world government and will behead those who will not worship their deity, does that mean that the jews had prophecied about the Mahdi and Isa ruling the world, and wrote down a prophecy that their Messiah King of Kings would defeat the 2 islamic rulers?

 

 

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3 hours ago, Channah said:

 

Alright. Now, I'm a bit confused. 

The One in Revelation, called "the Word of God" and "King of Kings" is Jesus/YHWH, the same man who I thought Islam calls the prophet Isa. 

 

He is the man who will call Himself "King of Kings" who calls Himself God, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit. He knows that only the Most High Elohim can be called the King of Kings, and He claims to be God Himself with this name in the book Revelation. 

 

Maybe this is different than Isa then? 

So, the man who comes and calls Himself "the King of Kings" is the Christ of the Christians, the one who says He "was dead, and is alive again." Obviously the Bible Jesus, Yahushua in Hebrew/Jewish. But this cannot be the same Isa, then, who will come and reign and not call himself the king of kings. 

If the most awful name is heard, on the future day of resurrection, then it must be that the Bible Jesus, the "King of Kings" then arrives on the scene and calls Himself that. And Isa will already be there, and this man calling himself that must be a different fellow. 

Also, since Revelation (written way before Mohammad's life) warns that the King of Kings will come and fight against and defeat the two world rulers who will have a one world government and will behead those who will not worship their deity, does that mean that the jews had prophecied about the Mahdi and Isa ruling the world, and wrote down a prophecy that their Messiah King of Kings would defeat the 2 islamic rulers?

 

 

Leaving the ahaadith aside and only taking the Quran as authority in this one, it's exactly this explanation which clarifies the awfulness of the term. I am not so into ahaadith as most of them were written down only 200 years after the Prophet s.a.w.a.s.

I am not a ahaadith rejector but very sceptical as I because of my christian past know that there are a lot of christian concepts imported in the ahaadith collections we have nowadays.

And if you ask me, Isa a.s. will not return at all. Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. was the last Prophet.

If Isa a.s. would return he s.a.w.a.s. is not the last Prophet anymore.

The return of Isa a.s. is also an imported concept from christianity.

Edited by Talut

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On 2/12/2017 at 1:24 PM, Talut said:

Leaving the ahaadith aside and only taking the Quran as authority in this one, it's exactly this explanation which clarifies the awfulness of the term. I am not so into ahaadith as most of them were written down only 200 years after the Prophet s.a.w.a.s.

I am not a ahaadith rejector but very sceptical as I because of my christian past know that there are a lot of christian concepts imported in the ahaadith collections we have nowadays.

And if you ask me, Isa a.s. will not return at all. Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. was the last Prophet.

If Isa a.s. would return he s.a.w.a.s. is not the last Prophet anymore.

The return of Isa a.s. is also an imported concept from christianity.

The idea of Muhammad being the "seal" of the Prophets, imo is misunderstood. There is mention in the old and new testaments of God "sealing" His Prophets. The seal is a security thing, not to do with who's last. Logically, Muhammad cannot be "The" seal if Imam Mahdi is still to come. 

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The word 'Khatamun' does not necessarily translate to 'seal' alone. It holds a number of meanings, i.e. last, ended, finished, seal, concluded, closed, etc. Some translations assign 'seal' and others, maybe more commonly, apply 'last'.

In reference to the return of the Imam and Prophet Isa pbuh (Jesus), both will return as guides, establishing God's decree ultimately from the Quran. Our obedience to these Guides would be equal to that of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

The Quran informs of the completion of religion and a second verse informing of Gods unyielding protection of the revealed. Therefore, it is clear, the Book will remain until the end of time and further revelations would be needless. Khatamun-Nabiyyun corresponds with the completion of 'revelation' and the fulfilment of religion, hence the line of Prophethood is complete.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Logically, Muhammad cannot be "The" seal if Imam Mahdi is still to come. 

Imam Mahdi was not designated a prophet. In simple English, he is part of our Prophet's team, just like Imam Ali and the Imams that followed him.

The office of prophethood was phased out so that all men of God should henceforth work together on a common goal.  

Not that the teachings of other prophets were different.

On the basics, they were not.

The goals of all prophets are the same.

But non-essential details varied from one prophet to another, communication around the world was snail-pace.

And every prophet had to make adjustments as he deemed fit and necessary, without, of course, violating the basic principles.

Even our Prophet had to make adjustments as he saw fit.

For example, alcohol was not forbidden in the early years of Islam.

But it was producing bad results, as you can see even today.

So our Prophet declared it forbidden.

But after him, his team will continue with the way he left things and there will be no more changes.

That is why they are known as his team and not separate prophets. 

Also, the world has been getting smaller and smaller and now communication is instantaneous.

There is no more need of local envoys.

That is what the Arabic equivalent of the word 'seal' is trying to convey.  

The new setup will be one man and his team, for a long time to come.  

It is just the way God has set it all up. 

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On 2/17/2017 at 7:19 PM, baqar said:

Imam Mahdi was not designated a prophet.

Not to discredit the rest of your post because it very much explains how religions are shaped from a pure beginning, and beautifully put. 

If Imam Mahdi is to appear pre judgement, after all that is attributed to him, he must hold the same status as a prophet. To be honest, I don't have much faith in a returning Imam, but I've heard from Muslims that Jesus will be alone, Jesus will lead and Imam Mahdi will follow, Jesus and the Imam will be a team, and lately there is more opinion that Imam Mahdi will lead and Jesus will follow. In this thread I learn Jesus may not even be there.

If you are wondering why I'm still confused...

There is a hadith I used to find amusing. Horrendous paraphrase but my apologies, I forget the actual, maybe you know it. Basically, Jesus will come in not one but two yellow dresses and cut off all the Christians heads with a sword. I don't know how Shia view the hadith, but the amusement comes to a screeching halt when you read something eerily similar in the Revelation to John. 

What I am seeing is that those who love God may be submitted, or subjected to a religion, but inside they recognize the God they love and everything every preacher ever said fades. It has no meaning. In the NT it is described as "the peace that passes all understanding." I'm sure Islam has an equivalent. I'd like to hear about it.

 

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On 18/02/2017 at 7:54 AM, Son of Placid said:

The idea of Muhammad being the "seal" of the Prophets, imo is misunderstood. There is mention in the old and new testaments of God "sealing" His Prophets. The seal is a security thing, not to do with who's last. Logically, Muhammad cannot be "The" seal if Imam Mahdi is still to come. 

The Imam is not there to reveal a new religion or abrogate the Prophet's religion, nor does he get revelations to do so. All of that was sealed with the Prophet, as that is under the Prophet's job.

His (the Imam's) job will be to uphold the Law of his grandfather (the Prophet) and defeat tyranny in the land and establish a complete Islamic society which will be peaceful, fulfilling and spiritual.

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17 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

If you are wondering why I'm still confused...

Hi SoP

With a large volume of hadiths on the subject, it is confusing to us as well.  

17 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Basically, Jesus will come in not one but two yellow dresses and cut off all the Christians heads with a sword.

I have never heard it. May be someone else has.

17 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

If Imam Mahdi is to appear pre judgement, after all that is attributed to him, he must hold the same status as a prophet.

Absolutely.

Just because he has not been designated prophethood does not mean he has a lower status.

Now suppose you were the top manager of a large organization.

You need to find the best blokes in your company.

In the process, you may identify x men as being in the  A+++ category.

But you will not necessarily employ all of them in the same role.

Would you?

You will appoint some as district managers, others as policy strategists, and yet others as special counsellors.

And so on and so forth .

And that is what God has done.

He makes use of his top brass (the A+++ category) in a number of different ways.

We are not privy to his affairs.

So it is hard to know how He manages his distribution of responsibilities.  

17 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

In this thread I learn Jesus may not even be there.

That is not true at all.

They are both in the A+++ category.

So it may be more like dual control.

When two people are in that special box that is closest to God, the question of leading or being led does not really arise.

They will always see alike and do what the other will approve of.

I can understand that it might matter to some people but to me, the question "who will have the lead role" is irrelevant. 

They will both do the right thing.

17 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Jesus and the Imam will be a team

Yes, they will be a team.

Look, a football player is part of a team of players.

But he also looks to the coach for strategic directions.

In the same manner, Jesus and the Imam will be a team in the sense that they will be working together.

But all our twelve Imams are also part of the Prophet's team, as they were sent down to further and foster his teachings. 

The Mahdi is just the last of those twelve Imams. 

I believe that is how God has set it all up.

As Lord Tennyson says 'And God fulfils himself in many ways.'

I hope I have been able to demystify some of your confusion, if not all of it. 

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22 hours ago, E.L King said:

The Imam is not there to reveal a new religion or abrogate the Prophet's religion, nor does he get revelations to do so. All of that was sealed with the Prophet, as that is under the Prophet's job.

His (the Imam's) job will be to uphold the Law of his grandfather (the Prophet) and defeat tyranny in the land and establish a complete Islamic society which will be peaceful, fulfilling and spiritual.

I believe this to be very interesting, and very important point in the connection between Christianity and Islam. 

The Revelation of John also speaks of a time period of righteous rule.

It speaks of Jesus coming, but it also mentions many levels of  A+++ category leadership., which could be "top managers" of 124,000 prophets, or the 144,000 mentioned who were "sealed". The Revelation is quite scattered and many people are making money for their version of John's visions. It is futile to read it with preconceived impressions. Also, most of 2000 years later, some of the "future" could now be in our past. 

I am of the impression that Adam knew the Injeel as it was given to every Prophet and as it will be during this future time. All prophets were given the same revelation, demographics divided their messages into groups. There may be many more religions than we know being represented during this righteous rule, and many commonly thought to be, might not. Obviously traditions and rituals will be updated as the Injeel reveals itself through the unity of the Prophets and to what ever extent technology will take us. 

The Revelation also speaks of this type of major unity of government and religion twice. First time doesn't work out so well for believers. 

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On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 1:28 AM, Son of Placid said:

Not to discredit the rest of your post because it very much explains how religions are shaped from a pure beginning, and beautifully put. 

If Imam Mahdi is to appear pre judgement, after all that is attributed to him, he must hold the same status as a prophet. To be honest, I don't have much faith in a returning Imam, but I've heard from Muslims that Jesus will be alone, Jesus will lead and Imam Mahdi will follow, Jesus and the Imam will be a team, and lately there is more opinion that Imam Mahdi will lead and Jesus will follow. In this thread I learn Jesus may not even be there.

If you are wondering why I'm still confused...

There is a hadith I used to find amusing. Horrendous paraphrase but my apologies, I forget the actual, maybe you know it. Basically, Jesus will come in not one but two yellow dresses and cut off all the Christians heads with a sword. I don't know how Shia view the hadith, but the amusement comes to a screeching halt when you read something eerily similar in the Revelation to John. 

What I am seeing is that those who love God may be submitted, or subjected to a religion, but inside they recognize the God they love and everything every preacher ever said fades. It has no meaning. In the NT it is described as "the peace that passes all understanding." I'm sure Islam has an equivalent. I'd like to hear about it.

 

There is a lot going on here, and your points are well taken.  I know that it can be maddening to deal with Hadith literature; many narrators in classical Sunni ahadith are taken with a grain of salt or rejected outright.  Abu Hurayrah is one that is tough for me.  He is frequently quoted, but because he narrates more hadith than all other narrators, and he did not spend much time at all with Prophet Muhammad (s a w a s), the Shi'a are skeptical.

I find that Sunnis tend to point to his narrations as well as emphasizing certain sahaba that we believe made mistakes.  I prefer the approach the Sufis take in not cursing the Sahaba- did they make mistakes? I believe so, but I believe that it's more important to follow the truth- as Prophet Isa ibn Maryam (AS) taught: you will know a tree by its fruit. 

I remember the passage you mentioned.  It seemed to me that the point was that at the Judgment (in Revelations), those who professed to believe but who did not do as they were taught to faced punishment.  That is definitely present in Islam as well.  When those who did things to gain acclaim rather than to please God will be dragged on their face into hellfire.

The peace that passes all understanding seems very similar to the concept of imaan.  We can define it as faith, but English is deficient in this regard.  Think St. Theresa of Avila- that almost ecstatic rapturous state brought on by pleasing God.  I think at a certain level, what many have described as evidence of sainthood was either "the peace" or imaan.  Both to me simply mean to love and worship God correctly and sincerely, and always striving to perfect that worship.

About the return of Isa- it is an article of faith that we believe he will return.  When he does, he will not be returning wielding the authority of a Prophet (in the sense of someone who brings new law or abrogates the old- his time has passed in that regard).  Imam al Madhi will be the rightful successor to Prophet Muhammad (S A W A S) and Prophet Isa (AS) will recognize him as the leader.  I guess the best example I can point to is when a former president and a sitting president attend the same functions- both are presidents, but only one is vested with authority at that time. 

Eschatology is very heavy stuff, and potentially labyrinthine, so there are many sources that sound reputable but aren't and there is also a lot more speculation on this topic and more opinions than any other.  And yet every Prophet who was asked about the End said that they did not know and only God knows that answer.

 

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