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In the Name of God بسم الله
MohammadAli1993

[Closed/Review]HELP!! Where does Allah say Bible is Corrupt?

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SalamAlaykum Brothers and Sister, 

I hope you are all well

I was wondering if someone can tell me where in the Quran it says that the Old and New Testament is Corrupt.

Because Muslims say that the Injeel and Torah was changed but where does it say that in the Quran.

PLEASE DONT BRING VERSES WHICH TALK ABOUT THE WORDS BEING ALTERED ORALLY,

But verses which mention that it was changed in writing.

Jazakallah 

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·        [Shakir 5:13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

·        [Shakir 5:15] O followers of the Book! Indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah.

     [2:75] Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).

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30 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 فَوَيْلٌ لِلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَذَا مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا فَوَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ ﴾(سورة البقرة: الآية 79

There may have been certain things they wrote and added to the holy scriptures, this does not necessitate that the original does not exist, along with the original there are added marginal notes which are not divine.

When was this Ayat revealed and why?

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3 hours ago, Ali Emanoil Mustafa said:

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem 

Selam ! 

As an ex-christian who read the bible many times if you need proofs that Islam is true for a friend  i can help you  , feel free to inbox me :)

Salam brother, Have you read the Whole Bible?

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On 2/8/2017 at 10:02 AM, MohammadAli1993 said:

SalamAlaykum Brothers and Sister, 

I hope you are all well

I was wondering if someone can tell me where in the Quran it says that the Old and New Testament is Corrupt.

Because Muslims say that the Injeel and Torah was changed but where does it say that in the Quran.

PLEASE DONT BRING VERSES WHICH TALK ABOUT THE WORDS BEING ALTERED ORALLY,

But verses which mention that it was changed in writing.

Jazakallah 

Salamun alaykum.

- 2: 75:

أَ فَتَطْمَعُونَ أَنْ يُؤْمِنُوا لَكُمْ وَ قَدْ كانَ فَريقٌ مِنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلامَ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِنْ بَعْدِ ما عَقَلُوهُ وَ هُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ (75)
Are you then eager that they should believe you, though a part of them would hear the word of Allah and then they would distort it after they had understood it, and they knew] what they were doing ?

- 2: 79:

فَوَيْلٌ لِلَّذينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتابَ بِأَيْديهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هذا مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِهِ ثَمَناً قَليلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْديهِمْ وَ وَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ (79)
So woe to those who write the Book with their hands and then say," This is from Allah," that they may sell it for a paltry gain. So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn!

- 3: 78:

وَ إِنَّ مِنْهُمْ لَفَريقاً يَلْوُونَ أَلْسِنَتَهُمْ بِالْكِتابِ لِتَحْسَبُوهُ مِنَ الْكِتابِ وَ ما هُوَ مِنَ الْكِتابِ وَ يَقُولُونَ هُوَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ وَ ما هُوَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ وَ يَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ الْكَذِبَ وَ هُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ (78)
There is indeed a group of them who twist their tongues to mimic the Book, that you may suppose that it is from the Book, though it is not from the Book, and they say," It is from Allah," though it is not from Allah, and they attribute lies to Allah, and they know] it [.

- 4: 46:

مِنَ الَّذينَ هادُوا يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَواضِعِهِ وَ يَقُولُونَ سَمِعْنا وَ عَصَيْنا وَ اسْمَعْ غَيْرَ مُسْمَعٍ وَ راعِنا لَيًّا بِأَلْسِنَتِهِمْ وَ طَعْناً فِي الدِّينِ وَ لَوْ أَنَّهُمْ قالُوا سَمِعْنا وَ أَطَعْنا وَ اسْمَعْ وَ انْظُرْنا لَكانَ خَيْراً لَهُمْ وَ أَقْوَمَ وَ لكِنْ لَعَنَهُمُ اللَّهُ بِكُفْرِهِمْ فَلا يُؤْمِنُونَ إِلاَّ قَليلاً (46)
Among the Jews are those who pervert words from their meanings and say," We hear and disobey" and" Hear without listening!" and" Ra" ina," twisting their tongues and reviling the faith. But had they said," We hear and obey" and" Listen" and" Unzurna," it would have been better for them, and more upright. But Allah has cursed them for their faithlessness, so they will not believe except a few.

- 5: 13:

فَبِما نَقْضِهِمْ ميثاقَهُمْ لَعَنَّاهُمْ وَ جَعَلْنا قُلُوبَهُمْ قاسِيَةً يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَواضِعِهِ وَ نَسُوا حَظًّا مِمَّا ذُكِّرُوا بِهِ وَ لا تَزالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلى‏ خائِنَةٍ مِنْهُمْ إِلاَّ قَليلاً مِنْهُمْ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَ اصْفَحْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنينَ (13)
Then, because of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard: they pervert words from their meanings, and have forgotten a part of what they were reminded. You will not cease to learn of some of their treachery, excepting a few of them. Yet excuse them and forbear. Indeed Allah loves the virtuous.

-5: 41:

يا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ لا يَحْزُنْكَ الَّذينَ يُسارِعُونَ فِي الْكُفْرِ مِنَ الَّذينَ قالُوا آمَنَّا بِأَفْواهِهِمْ وَ لَمْ تُؤْمِنْ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَ مِنَ الَّذينَ هادُوا سَمَّاعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ سَمَّاعُونَ لِقَوْمٍ آخَرينَ لَمْ يَأْتُوكَ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَواضِعِهِ يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتيتُمْ هذا فَخُذُوهُ وَ إِنْ لَمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُوا وَ مَنْ يُرِدِ اللَّهُ فِتْنَتَهُ فَلَنْ تَمْلِكَ لَهُ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئاً أُولئِكَ الَّذينَ لَمْ يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَنْ يُطَهِّرَ قُلُوبَهُمْ لَهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيا خِزْيٌ وَ لَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذابٌ عَظيمٌ (41)
O Apostle! Do not grieve for those who are active in] promoting [unfaith, such as those who say," We believe" with their mouths, but whose hearts have no faith, and the Jews who eavesdrop with the aim of] telling [lies] against you [and eavesdrop for other people who do not come to you. They pervert words from their meanings,] and [say," If you are given this, take it, but if you are not given this, beware!" Yet whomever Allah wishes to mislead, you cannot avail him anything against Allah. They are the ones whose hearts Allah did not desire to purify. For them is disgrace in this world, and there is a great punishment for them in the Hereafter.)

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On 2/8/2017 at 3:17 PM, amirhosein_88 said:

Salamun alaykum.

- 2: 75:

أَ فَتَطْمَعُونَ أَنْ يُؤْمِنُوا لَكُمْ وَ قَدْ كانَ فَريقٌ مِنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلامَ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِنْ بَعْدِ ما عَقَلُوهُ وَ هُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ (75)
Are you then eager that they should believe you, though a part of them would hear the word of Allah and then they would distort it after they had understood it, and they knew] what they were doing ?

- 2: 79:

فَوَيْلٌ لِلَّذينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتابَ بِأَيْديهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هذا مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِهِ ثَمَناً قَليلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْديهِمْ وَ وَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ (79)
So woe to those who write the Book with their hands and then say," This is from Allah," that they may sell it for a paltry gain. So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn!

- 3: 78:

وَ إِنَّ مِنْهُمْ لَفَريقاً يَلْوُونَ أَلْسِنَتَهُمْ بِالْكِتابِ لِتَحْسَبُوهُ مِنَ الْكِتابِ وَ ما هُوَ مِنَ الْكِتابِ وَ يَقُولُونَ هُوَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ وَ ما هُوَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ وَ يَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ الْكَذِبَ وَ هُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ (78)
There is indeed a group of them who twist their tongues to mimic the Book, that you may suppose that it is from the Book, though it is not from the Book, and they say," It is from Allah," though it is not from Allah, and they attribute lies to Allah, and they know] it [.

- 4: 46:

مِنَ الَّذينَ هادُوا يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَواضِعِهِ وَ يَقُولُونَ سَمِعْنا وَ عَصَيْنا وَ اسْمَعْ غَيْرَ مُسْمَعٍ وَ راعِنا لَيًّا بِأَلْسِنَتِهِمْ وَ طَعْناً فِي الدِّينِ وَ لَوْ أَنَّهُمْ قالُوا سَمِعْنا وَ أَطَعْنا وَ اسْمَعْ وَ انْظُرْنا لَكانَ خَيْراً لَهُمْ وَ أَقْوَمَ وَ لكِنْ لَعَنَهُمُ اللَّهُ بِكُفْرِهِمْ فَلا يُؤْمِنُونَ إِلاَّ قَليلاً (46)
Among the Jews are those who pervert words from their meanings and say," We hear and disobey" and" Hear without listening!" and" Ra" ina," twisting their tongues and reviling the faith. But had they said," We hear and obey" and" Listen" and" Unzurna," it would have been better for them, and more upright. But Allah has cursed them for their faithlessness, so they will not believe except a few.

- 5: 13:

فَبِما نَقْضِهِمْ ميثاقَهُمْ لَعَنَّاهُمْ وَ جَعَلْنا قُلُوبَهُمْ قاسِيَةً يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَواضِعِهِ وَ نَسُوا حَظًّا مِمَّا ذُكِّرُوا بِهِ وَ لا تَزالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلى‏ خائِنَةٍ مِنْهُمْ إِلاَّ قَليلاً مِنْهُمْ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَ اصْفَحْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنينَ (13)
Then, because of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard: they pervert words from their meanings, and have forgotten a part of what they were reminded. You will not cease to learn of some of their treachery, excepting a few of them. Yet excuse them and forbear. Indeed Allah loves the virtuous.

-5: 41:

يا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ لا يَحْزُنْكَ الَّذينَ يُسارِعُونَ فِي الْكُفْرِ مِنَ الَّذينَ قالُوا آمَنَّا بِأَفْواهِهِمْ وَ لَمْ تُؤْمِنْ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَ مِنَ الَّذينَ هادُوا سَمَّاعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ سَمَّاعُونَ لِقَوْمٍ آخَرينَ لَمْ يَأْتُوكَ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَواضِعِهِ يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتيتُمْ هذا فَخُذُوهُ وَ إِنْ لَمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُوا وَ مَنْ يُرِدِ اللَّهُ فِتْنَتَهُ فَلَنْ تَمْلِكَ لَهُ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئاً أُولئِكَ الَّذينَ لَمْ يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَنْ يُطَهِّرَ قُلُوبَهُمْ لَهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيا خِزْيٌ وَ لَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذابٌ عَظيمٌ (41)
O Apostle! Do not grieve for those who are active in] promoting [unfaith, such as those who say," We believe" with their mouths, but whose hearts have no faith, and the Jews who eavesdrop with the aim of] telling [lies] against you [and eavesdrop for other people who do not come to you. They pervert words from their meanings,] and [say," If you are given this, take it, but if you are not given this, beware!" Yet whomever Allah wishes to mislead, you cannot avail him anything against Allah. They are the ones whose hearts Allah did not desire to purify. For them is disgrace in this world, and there is a great punishment for them in the Hereafter.)

Brother where in this verse does it make it clear that the current Book is changed?

Can you please explain

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13 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

SalamAlaykum Brothers and Sister, 

I hope you are all well

I was wondering if someone can tell me where in the Quran it says that the Old and New Testament is Corrupt.

Because Muslims say that the Injeel and Torah was changed but where does it say that in the Quran.

PLEASE DONT BRING VERSES WHICH TALK ABOUT THE WORDS BEING ALTERED ORALLY,

But verses which mention that it was changed in writing.

Jazakallah 

I'll answer in a different way:

The Old Testament was re-written during the Maccabean Era, 200+BCE. The "Torah" shows this in several places, such as how Moses-as wrote about where he was buried, and other illogical writings. Popularized stories were incorporated: Books of Ruth, Daniel, Ester, etc.

The New Testament was not "codified" until the 4th Century C.C. At which time, the doings of Babylonian Paul/Saul were incorporated to reject Judaism.

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5 hours ago, hasanhh said:

I'll answer in a different way:

The Old Testament was re-written during the Maccabean Era, 200+BCE. The "Torah" shows this in several places, such as how Moses-as wrote about where he was buried, and other illogical writings. Popularized stories were incorporated: Books of Ruth, Daniel, Ester, etc.

The New Testament was not "codified" until the 4th Century C.C. At which time, the doings of Babylonian Paul/Saul were incorporated to reject Judaism.

Not quite so. The great majority Biblical Scholars today believe that the Torah (the OT part that mainly has inspired the Quran) was written in the 6th century. Not rewritten, but composed of older oral and written material. All mythical. Jews kept on writing, and the youngest OT books were written in the 2 century BC. 

The NT also contains a collection from different authors. Mainly from the 1st century. 

Edited by andres

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7 hours ago, Qa'im said:

As for direct and explicit quotations from the Qur'an that says that the Torah is corrupt, that does not exist in those words. Our conclusions on its corruption is a result of a lot of corroborating evidences, such as (1) verses that say that the Jews and Christians were corrupting scriptures in general, (2) verses that say that the Qur'an is the criterion (furqan) for what is truthful in the previous scriptures, (3) stories in the Qur'an that are in direct contradiction to biblical accounts, (4) historical and textual arguments against the authenticity of the scriptures, (5) instructions from the Prophet to neither believe nor disbelieve in the previous scriptures (6) the presence of biblical stories that may seem insulting to God or a prophet of God (Lot sleeping with his daughters, Noah being a drunk, rape, incest, genocide, etc), (7) the presence of abrogated rulings in the Scriptures, which negate their authority even if they were to be authentic.

Nowadays, reason #4 is enough for most people to confirm their doubts in the previous scriptures. That does not mean they are of 0 value - but we see our stuff as a purer and more finalized version of the previous stuff.

Of course the Bible and Quran differs. However I wonder if Muhammed knew how. Does the Quran protest against the Biblical text or against what Jews and Christians said and did? The Bible does not say Mary is a Goddess, but Muhammed and Muslims still even today believe Christians worship her.

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8 hours ago, andres said:

Not quite so. The great majority Biblical Scholars today believe that the Torah (the OT part that mainly has inspired the Quran) was written in the 6th century. Not rewritten, but composed of older oral and written material. All mythical. Jews kept on writing, and the youngest OT books were written in the 2 century BC. 

The NT also contains a collection from different authors. Mainly from the 1st century. 

Is this the new cwap being dispensed[in colleges]? 1] Book of Job is the oldest book and is 'close' to Arabic.

The Qur'an was not "inspired" by the OT. The closest to the OT is sura Yusef.

"youngest OT books were written in the 2[nd] century BC" --that is the time span of the Maacabean Era.

Edited by hasanhh
brackets and two words added for clarity

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23 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Is this the new cwap being dispensed[in colleges]? 1] Book of Job is the oldest book and is 'close' to Arabic.

The Qur'an was not "inspired" by the OT. The closest to the OT is sura Yusef.

"youngest OT books were written in the 2[nd] century BC" --that is the time span of the Maacabean Era.

Yes 2nd century is the Macabean era. The Torah was written 4 centuries earlier. OT was not rewritten, books were added. 

Yosef is a clear example. But there are many other historical references to the Bible in the Quran. Can you name me a few that is not?

Arabic and Hebrew languages are related. Long ago they were the same, and they also had the same pagan religion

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4 hours ago, andres said:

...

Yosef is a clear example. But there are many other historical references to the Bible in the Quran. Can you name me a few that is not?

...

l do not know which-way your question asks, but Luqman and ldris are not in the Bible.

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3 minutes ago, Ali Emanoil Mustafa said:

lol i read the bible maybe a dozen times.. idris is the arabic version of Enoch but whatever you say

Enoch does not correlate with ldris.

Enoch "God took him". That can also mean death, not only "heaven".

ldris-as, Sura 19:56-58, In the literal analysis, ldris-as was raised to a "high position" because Allah-swt bestowed on him-as and others a "favor". So ldris-as had a story more similar to Yusef-as than an assention like lsa-as.

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I am sorry to say I don't see any point to this thread.

I have been away for almost two years but coming back about a month ago, I can see that the number of active visitors is very much fewer but little else has changed in common approach.   

Those who were around in the early days of Shiachat might remember that I have pointed out at times that contentious discussions cannot possibly contribute to peace in the world. I remember the flack I had to endure but that is all in the past now. 

In fact, at times, I myself may have taken part in such discussions but as best as I can remember never proactively and if I have, it still cannot be justified. Wrong is always wrong even if you do it yourself.

Ideally, this forum and its sister, the Shia-Sunni should be replaced by something else. But if they have to be there, it would be much better to restrict them to one of information exchange and that is it. No more!

It is plain common sense that if we tell other people that their religion is false or their scriptures are tainted, we are hurting their feelings and that cannot win us any friends. I am sure everyone will agree that the world we live in, we need to make friends, not enemies. With the entire Western world at the moment cocking their guns at Iran, we Shias should be especially active trying to turn enemies into friends rather than the other way round. Please remember that if we Shias are in trouble, there is a better chance that a Christian country or even the Vatican might speak on our behalf, rather than Saudi Arabia, which is hell bent on destroying every trace of our beliefs in the world. 

What we are doing in such threads, I am sure, we wouldn't do this to people in our own neighbourhood. Just because we don't know people personally does not mean we should savour the pleasure of hurting them and their feelings. 

Imagine you relocated to a city where you found your lodging surrounded on all four sides by people of other religions. To the North, was a Christian family, to the south, a Jewish, to the east, a Hindu and to the West an atheist. Now you are a good social talker. And you want to go and meet  them.

Would you.take some newly baked cake with you and perhaps some toys for the children and engage in social chat? Or would you make sure that as soon as the cake has been eaten, you force the conversation to turn critically to their religion and their books?

I am sure you would prefer the former option.  

So why not try it here? 

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20Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard. 21He drank of the wine and became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent. 22Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.…

La hawwla wala quwwatta illa billah... 

Allah presents an example of those who disbelieved: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous servants but betrayed them, so those Prophets did not avail them from Allah at all, and it was said, "Enter the Fire with those who enter." (66:10)

 

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12 hours ago, Ali Emanoil Mustafa said:

lol i read the bible maybe a dozen times.. idris is the arabic version of Enoch but whatever you say

There are obviously many similarities, but as far as I have found, there is no consensus on wether Idris and Enoch are the same.

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On 2/9/2017 at 3:53 PM, andres said:

Of course the Bible and Quran differs. However I wonder if Muhammed knew how. Does the Quran protest against the Biblical text or against what Jews and Christians said and did? The Bible does not say Mary is a Goddess, but Muhammed and Muslims still even today believe Christians worship her.

What do Christian call who gave birth to a God ?

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@andres

And please show in Quran, where it says that Christians worship Marry as God ? Quran only speaks of Trinity and God knows that Trinity referred to Son, Father and Holy Spirit. Since you cannot have conversation directly with God and Holy Spirit so Quran speaks about Jesus who has remained among the world visible and known by the people and his qualities which do not qualify for God.

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Yes, and the OT has a lot of consolidated history within.

OT that is older than the Quran could not  have borrowed from the Quran. The opposit is possible. What I am interested in, is to hear about historical material in the Quran that is from Muhammeds own culture. Like Luqman and possibly also Idris. Got more?

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

@andres

And please show in Quran, where it says that Christians worship Marry as God ? Quran only speaks of Trinity and God knows that Trinity referred to Son, Father and Holy Spirit. Since you cannot have conversation directly with God and Holy Spirit so Quran speaks about Jesus who has remained among the world visible and known by the people and his qualities which do not qualify for God.

In 5:116 the Quran criticises a belief in three Gods. God, Jesus and Mary.

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

What do Christian call who gave birth to a God ?

Virgin Mary, holy mother, Mother of God. Catholics may have more names. Naturally many think this means Mary is believed to be a God. Believe it or not, Christians dont.

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14 hours ago, baqar said:

Would you.take some newly baked cake with you and perhaps some toys for the children and engage in social chat? Or would you make sure that as soon as the cake has been eaten, you force the conversation to turn critically to their religion and their books?

I am sure you would prefer the former option.  

So why not try it here? 

People differ. I am not very interested in how to bake cakes and would never attend to such forums. Neither am I offended or disturbed by others criticising my religious faith. (I could be if it was in a bake-cake-forum.) If I had been, I would choose forums that agreed completely with my view.

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1 hour ago, andres said:

In 5:116 the Quran criticises a belief in three Gods. God, Jesus and Mary.

I am extremely sorry, but does that trinity has name that means it was surely "Mary" and not "Holy Spirit" ?????? Please mention by name if you find any verse where it is said that Christians worshipped Marry as God, there is mention of Jesus but not Mary. 

Since there is not name, why are you than using analogy to say it was Mary since there is no verse which says in Quran that Christians called Mary as god but rather it emphasized on the issue of "Why jesus was called god" ?

Secondly, for the sake of curiosity, tell me why do Christians believe that "Jesus, who was god can be in the womb of non-god "Mary" "? Is this your belief about god that non-god can contain god ? While god cannot be contained by its creation ? I believe that the only God is one who kept "Jesus in the womb of Mary" and then "Took him out of that belly".

 

Edited by Sindbad05

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