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In the Name of God بسم الله

Finality of Prophethood and Evolution of Shi'ism

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Your thoughts on this?

Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush, an Iranian scholar, a government official directly appointed by Khomeini, talking about Evolution of shiaism and finality of Prophet hood.

Biography of author is HERE

 

 

This is full lecture. Short clip part starts from 36 min. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_9cM6yEm_U

 

Edited by Fahad Sani
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@Fahad Sani

So, what is wrong in it ? If Shias say that Imams are infallible like Prophets and they tell what Prophet tells then what is wrong in it ?

Prophet PBUHHP says: "I am leaving behind you two things and if you hold fast on these you will never go astray that are: Quran and My Ahle bait". It is also found in your hadith sources as well.

Secondly, for infallibility read in Quran in which Allah (SWT) reveals to purify the house of Prophet PBUHHP and has done it what he wanted. So, their infallibility is proven. 33:33

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Secondly, he did not mentioned in which book sheikh mufeed said that they are prophets ?

Finally, I will say that Imamate is a position which is proven by Quran that it is an extraordinary position and that is proven in the Quranic verse which says that Ibrahim a.s was rewarded with Imamah after he passed his trial. Is not it true ?

So, it defines that Imamah has great importance. 

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16 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

@Fahad Sani

So, what is wrong in it ? If Shias say that Imams are infallible like Prophets and they tell what Prophet tells then what is wrong in it ?

Prophet PBUHHP says: "I am leaving behind you two things and if you hold fast on these you will never go astray that are: Quran and My Ahle bait". It is also found in your hadith sources as well.

Secondly, for infallibility read in Quran in which Allah (SWT) reveals to purify the house of Prophet PBUHHP and has done it what he wanted. So, their infallibility is proven. 33:33

Its not only about isma.

Speaker in the video is saying shias believe in finality of prophet hood verbally but in reality they consider their Imams exactly like prophets (no difference between the two except the title). To support this claim he quoted Shaikh Mufeed.

 

16 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Secondly, he did not mentioned in which book sheikh mufeed said that they are prophets ?

Finally, I will say that Imamate is a position which is proven by Quran that it is an extraordinary position and that is proven in the Quranic verse which says that Ibrahim a.s was rewarded with Imamah after he passed his trial. Is not it true ?

So, it defines that Imamah has great importance. 

وائل المقالات – الشيخ المفيد ص 45:
 القول في الفرق بين الرسل والأنبياء عليهم السلام
واتفقت الإمامية على أن كل رسول فهو نبي وليس كل نبي فهو رسول، وقد كان من أنبياء الله عز وجل حفظة لشرائع الرسل وخلفائهم في المقام، وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.

The difference between the Prophets and the Messengers (as):

The Imami (Shia) have consensus that every messenger is a prophet but not every prophet is a messenger, from the prophets of Allah are those who preserve/protect the religious laws passed down by the messengers, they are their successors in this matter. The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they (Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them. (Shaikh Mufeed: Awail al–Maqaalat, page 45).

Actually speaker in the video is addressing major flaws in shia beliefs, Imamah being the major one. As it is creating serious doubts on shia belief on finality of prophet hood. As it seems no difference between the two stations (nabuwah and imamah) except the title.

 

Edited by Fahad Sani
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15 hours ago, Ozzy said:

This is an old discussion. Ultimately one can conclude that neither the Sunni nor the Shia really know what the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله said. Hence, to best find out what he said the Shia take the Imams as the spokesmen for his message, while the Sunnis call their spokesmen Imams (e.g. Malik, Ahmad, Bukhari, Muslim et al). The very essence of an Imam is that one takes them to be their guide in the absence of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله. It is even mentioned in some sunni hadith circles "When you recite Bukhari, think of it as if the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله himself is speaking to you."

Yes brother the matter is full of confusions. But unlike sunnis, twelver shia believe that Imams are divinely appointed and possess all qualities of prophets except they are not prophets.

 

14 hours ago, Ozzy said:

خاتمة المستدرك: عن ابي العباس البقباق، قال: تذاكر ابن أبي يعفور ومعلى ابن خنيس، فقال ابن أبي يعفور: الاوصياء علماء ابرار اتقياء، وقال معلى بن خنيس: الاوصياء انبياء، قال: فدخلا على أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام)، قال: فلما استقر مجلسهما، قال: فبدأهما أبو عبد الله (عليه السلام)، فقال: يا عبد الله ابرأ ممن قال انا انبياء

ِAbul Abbas al-Baqbaa narrates that Ibn Abi Yafour and Mualla ibn Khunaid were having a discussion; Ibn Abi Yafour said the successors are pious and righteous scholars while Mulaasaid they were prophets. So they visited Imam Jafar, and when they were seated the Imam began by saying 'Abdullah, I have nothing to do with anyone who says we are prophets."
~ Khatimatul Mustadrak

Do Shaikh Mufeed fall in this category? Because indirectly he is calling them prophets. Same statement which Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush had quoted in lecture.

13 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

The Imami (Shia) have consensus that every messenger is a prophet but not every prophet is a messenger, from the prophets of Allah are those who preserve/protect the religious laws passed down by the messengers, they are their successors in this matter. The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they (Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them. (Shaikh Mufeed: Awail al–Maqaalat, page 45).

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15 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Ultimately one can conclude that neither the Sunni nor the Shia really know what the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله said.

Wrong brother. Sunnis have much more ahadith which goes back directly to Prophet s.a.w.w. And this number is around 10 thousand. While shias have not more than 1 thousand ahadith from prophet s.a.w.w whose isnad goes back to him s.a.w.w. Moreover many shia ahdith are based on taqqiyah, one more drawback.

Can you please share some ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w on finality of prophet hood from shia sources if possible?

Jazak Allah.

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4 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Your thoughts on this?

Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush, an Iranian scholar, a government official directly appointed by Khomeini, talking about Evolution of shiaism and finality of Prophet hood.

Biography of author is HERE

 

 

This is full lecture. Short clip part starts from 36 min. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_9cM6yEm_U

 

:bismillah:

(A). DR. ABDOL KARIM SOROUSH
 
Khorasānī commences bringing the “proofs” in this manner:
 
Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush, an Iranian scholar, was a government official directly appointed by Khomeini. Click this link to see his biography. This Iranian thinker and scholar, acknowledges that the Shias are the Deniers of the finality of Prophethood.
 
Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush?! Assuming that Dr. Soroush indeed rejects belief in the finality of prophethood or actually attributes the kufr to the Imāmiyyah, how does that prove anything about Imāmī Shī’ism? He is only an Iranian philosopher, and an ex-officer of the Iranian regime in the early days of the Islāmic Revolution. He has had NO Shī’ah religious training at all! He only studied Pharmacy (Iran), then Analytical Chemistry (London) for his Masters degree, and then Philosophy of Science (London) for his PhD degree! He in fact is now anti-marja’, and has been declared an apostate by Āyatullāh Sayyid ‘Alī Khamenei, may Allāh protect him! The fact that Imām al-Khomeinī, may Allāh be pleased with him, appointed him to be an officer of the Iranian government gives absolutely no religious weight to what he has become after the death of the Imām. Sadly for Khorasānī, Dr. Soroush, an Iranian philosopher with no clerical background whatsoever is his best “proof” against the Imāmiyyah!

 

 

36 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

Do Shaikh Mufeed fall in this category? Because indirectly he is calling them prophets. Same statement which Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush had quoted in lecture.

 

(B). SHAYKH AL-MUFĪD
 
Then, Khorasānī proceeds to his next “proof”:

Shiekh Al Mufid states:

 

أوائل المقالات – الشيخ المفيد ص 45:
8 – 
القول في الفرق بين الرسل والأنبياء عليهم السلام
واتفقت الإمامية على أن كل رسول فهو نبي وليس كل نبي فهو رسول، وقد كان من أنبياء الله عز وجل حفظة لشرائع الرسل وخلفائهم في المقام، وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.



8- The difference between the Prophets and the Messengers (as):

The Imami (Shia) have consensus that every messenger is a prophet but not every prophet is a messenger, from the prophets of Allah are those who preserve/protect the religious laws passed down by the messengers, they are their successors in this matter. The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they(Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them. (Awail al-Maqaalat, page 45)
 
First and foremost, Khorasānī’s translation is full of horrible distortions. We will gradually examine what he has quoted from Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, to expose his Nāsibī distortions. The title reads:
 

– القول في الفرق بين الرسل والأنبياء عليهم السلام

 
The Statement about the DIFFERENCE between messengers and prophets, peace be upon them.
 
One wonders why Khorasānī even doctored this apparently harmless heading!
 
This establishes Shaykh al-Mufīd’s aim: he wanted to examine the difference between messengers and prophets, peace be upon them all. Then, Shaykh al-Mufīd stated:
 

واتفقت الإمامية على أن كل رسول فهو نبي وليس كل نبي فهو رسول،

 
The Imāmiyyah are unanimous upon the fact that EVERY messenger is a prophet, but not every prophet is a messenger.
 
This is because not all prophets, peace be upon them, were sent with a new book or a new Sharī’ah. Those of them that were given a new scripture or law are the messengers. The rest of them only came to teach and implement the book or law given to the messengers among them. This is why Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, added:
 

وقد كان من أنبياء الله عز وجل حفظة لشرائع الرسل وخلفائهم في المقام،

 
Verily, among the prophets of Allāh, the Almighty, were those who were PRESERVERS of the Sharī’ahs of the messengers, and were their khalīfahs in the rank.
 
In other words, some prophets were given no book or Sharī’ah. Their only job was to teach the people about the books and Sharī’ahs of the past prophets, and to implement them if they could. Usually, a messenger came with a new book or a new Sharī’ah. When he died, prophets came after him to teach his book and implement his Sharī’ah. They were his Khalīfahs only in the teaching and implementation of the book and/or the Sharī’ah. Other than teaching and implementing the book or Sharī’ah of the previous messenger, these prophets did nothing more. They received no legislative wahy, and no scripture from Allāh, and no Sharī’ah!
 
We ask you, Khorasānī: is this not true? Is it not true that some, if not the majority of the prophets, were only like khalīfahs who only preserved the teachings and laws of a messenger? Is it not the same thing that Allāh has stated here:
 
Verily, We did send down the Tawrah (to Mūsā), therein was guidance and light, BY WHICH THE PROPHETS, WHO SUBMITTED THEMSELVES TO ALLĀH, AND THE RABBIS AND PRIESTS RULED AND JUDGED THE JEWS, FOR TO THEM WAS ENTRUSTED THE PRESERVATION OF ALLĀH’S BOOK, and they were witnesses to it.
Qur’ān 5:44
 
This blessed verse informs us that:
 
1. The Prophet Mūsā, peace be upon him, was sent by Allāh with the Tawrah, thereby proving that he was both a prophet and messenger.
2. After him, Allāh entrusted the preservation of the Tawrah to a succession of prophets, and after them to the rabbis and priests of Israel.
3. These prophets were given NO legislative wahy, or book or Sharī’ah. Rather, they performed the SAME function as the rabbis and priests of Israel.
4. The prophets, the rabbis and the priests were equal witnesses to the Tawrah.
5. Other than titles, there were no differences between the prophets, the rabbis and the priests in their preservation of the Tawrah.
 
Now, our esteemed readers can easily understand these words of Shaykh al-Mufīd:
 

وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.

 
The Sharī’ah has only forbidden the naming of our Imāms with prophethood, although logic allows this due to their attaining what THOSE OF THE PROPHETS WE MENTIONED attained.
 
Look at how Khorasānī has completely altered what Shaykh al-Mufīd said, to support his dishonest agenda:
 
The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they(Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them.
 
There is NO mention of “qualities” in the text. Moreover, the word “claiming” is NOT in the text. Lastly, Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, was only referring to SOME of the prophets whom he mentioned, while Khorasānī doctored his words to look as though he was referring to all prophets!!! Such is what they do!
 
It is our belief that our Imāms, peace be upon them all, are the preservers of the Qur’ān and the Sharī’ah of Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, after him. In this way, they are NOT different from the majority of the past prophets who were also only preservers of the book and Sharī’ah of a previous messenger. This was what Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, was emphasizing. If not that prophethood had ended, the Imāms, peace be upon them, too would have been declared prophets by Allāh, since they perform the exact functions of the many (if not the majority) of prophets.
 
In simple words, Khorasānī LIED upon Shaykh al-Mufīd and the Imāmiyyah with this “proof”.
 

Now, let us turn the table! Imām al-Bukhārī (Sahih, Kitab Fadhail as-Sahaba, hadith #3486) records:
 

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لقد كان فيما قبلكم من الأمم محدثون فإن يك في أمتي أحد فإنه عمر

 
The Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, said: 
 
Verily, among the past Ummahs were muhadathūn. If there is any of them in my Ummah, it is ‘Umar.
 
muhadath (plural, muhadathūn) is someone to whom angels, peace be upon them, speak. He may be a prophet and may not be. But, in terms of access to angels, and communication with them, there is no difference between a muhadath and a prophet. Sayyidah Maryam, peace be upon her, was one of the past muhadathūn. Allāh states:
 

وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَىٰ نِسَاءِ الْعَالَمِينَ

 
And (remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam! Verily, Allāh has chosen you, purified you, and chosen you above the women of the 'Ālamīn (mankind and jinn) (of her lifetime)."
Qur’ān 3:42

 

In the commentary of the above hadīth, Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalānī (Fath al-Bari, Kitab Fadhail as-Sahaba, hadith #3486) states:
 

وقوله : " وإن يك في أمتي " قيل : لم يورد هذا القول مورد الترديد فإن أمته أفضل الأمم ، وإذا ثبت أن ذلك وجد في غيرهم فإمكان وجوده فيهم أولى ، وإنما أورده مورد التأكيد ... وتمحضت الحكمة في وجودهم وكثرتهم بعد العصر الأول في زيادة شرف هذه الأمة بوجود أمثالهم فيه ، وقد تكون الحكمة في تكثيرهم مضاهاة بني إسرائيل في كثرة الأنبياء فيهم ، فلما فات هذه الأمة كثرة الأنبياء فيها لكون نبيها خاتم الأنبياء عوضوا بكثرة الملهمين . وقال الطيبي : المراد بالمحدث الملهم البالغ في ذلك مبلغ النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - في الصدق ، والمعنى لقد كان فيما قبلكم من الأمم أنبياء ملهمون ، فإن يك في أمتي أحد هذا شأنه فهو عمر

 
And his statement “and if there is any in my Ummah”, it is said: this statement is not a statement of rejection (i.e. of the possibility of muhadathūn in his Ummah) because his Ummah is the best of Ummahs. If it (the fact of the existence of muhadathūn) is established that this existed in other Ummahs, then its existence among them (i.e. his Ummah) is even more likely. The statement was only made for emphasis (on the fact that muhadathūn exist in his Ummah)… The wisdom in the specific fact that they (muhadathūn) exist, and in great numbers, after the first period is that it is an additional honour for this Ummah, through the existence of THE LIKE OF THEM in it. Indeed, there is wisdom in their proliferation, similar to the (case of) Banū Isrāīl among whom was proliferation of prophets. Due to that fact that this Ummah does not have plenty of prophets because its prophet is the Last of the Prophets, THOSE WHO RECEIVE DIVINE INSPIRATION are plenty in it. Al-Tayyibī said: “The meaning of al-Muhadath is a person who RECEIVES DIVINE INSPIRATION, WHO HAS REACHED THE LEVEL OF THE PROPHET, peace be upon him, IN TRUTHFULNESS. The meaning then is: There were DIVINELY INSPIRED PROPHETS among those before you, IF THERE WERE ANYONE WHO HAS REACHED THIS STATUS in my Ummah, it is ‘Umar.
 
So, does this not mean that Sunnīs do NOT believe in the finality of prophethood?

 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3223:refuting-khorasani-do-shias-believe-in-finality-of-prophethood&catid=205&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

"And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know [it]." [2:42]

 

Wsalam

 

Edited by The Straight Path
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34 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

Wrong brother. Sunnis have much more ahadith which goes back directly to Prophet s.a.w.w. And this number is around 10 thousand. While shias have not more than 1 thousand ahadith from prophet s.a.w.w whose isnad goes back to him s.a.w.w. Moreover many shia ahdith are based on taqqiyah, one more drawback.

Can you please share some ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w on finality of prophet hood from shia sources if possible?

Jazak Allah.

 

You know that there are many narrators in between Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and Bukhari apart from the Sahabas right? The English versions online only names one narrator "Umar narrates.." etc. but in the Arabic, there are much longer chains going all the way from Prophet Muhammad S.A.W to scholars like Bukhari and Muslim with many narrators in between. I suggest you read this blog post by brother @Qa'im:

You may have a lot of hadiths with Prophet's S.A.W name on it, but how can you be sure that all of them are truly authentic? 

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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

Yes brother the matter is full of confusions. But unlike sunnis, twelver shia believe that Imams are divinely appointed and possess all qualities of prophets except they are not prophets.

 

Do Shaikh Mufeed fall in this category? Because indirectly he is calling them prophets. Same statement which Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush had quoted in lecture.

The thing which Sheikh Mufeed has said is true as brother @The Straight Path has translated even according to Sunni Sources, because Prophet PBUHHP said: "O! Ali a.s you are to me as Haroon was to Mosa except that there is no prophet after me". 

Secondly, if you read the Quran, you will find the pious people with the status as that of Prophets but were not Prophets themselves such as Hazrat Taul a.s,  Hazrat Dhulqarnain a.s, Hazrat Luqman a.s, Hazrat Khidr a.s, Ashab e Kahaf. Only thirty prophets are mentioned in the prophets out of 124000, and many 123970 were left and Allah (SWT) choose pious person in place of them. 

Even you read that David was a Prophet who succeeded Tault a.s who was a pious men so what are you fighting for. 

Secondly, tell me that was Ibrahim's a.s status elevated when he was gifted with imamate or was lowered? if it was elevated then it means that Imamate is an special gift which Prophet Ibrahim a.s did not possessed before. So, how do you see it now ?

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It's always fun when a Sunni tells us what our beliefs are.

When we correct you, you immediately play the 'taqiyah' card.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the last and final Prophet. It's not even a discussion item for shias.

The Imams are the Imams - they protect the message.

I think you are simply covering up the Sunni belief that "Prophet is like us" by mixing Nubuwah with Imamah.

This scholar says Prophethood and Imamah are mixed. Hz Aisha and a lot of Sunni scholars says adult women can breastfeed adult men.

Don't believe everything you read.

 

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14 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

Shiekh Al Mufid states:

 

أوائل المقالات – الشيخ المفيد ص 45:
8 – 
القول في الفرق بين الرسل والأنبياء عليهم السلام
واتفقت الإمامية على أن كل رسول فهو نبي وليس كل نبي فهو رسول، وقد كان من أنبياء الله عز وجل حفظة لشرائع الرسل وخلفائهم في المقام، وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.



8- The difference between the Prophets and the Messengers (as):

The Imami (Shia) have consensus that every messenger is a prophet but not every prophet is a messenger, from the prophets of Allah are those who preserve/protect the religious laws passed down by the messengers, they are their successors in this matter. The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they(Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them. (Awail al-Maqaalat, page 45)

Assalam o Alaikum borther,

Even if this translation is incorrect but still then the overall meaning of what shaikh Mufeed was trying to say is same. Moreover other scholars also had same belief.

Quote

Allamah Baqir Majlisi states:

ولا نعرف جهة لعدم اتصافهم بالنبوة إلا رعاية جلالة خاتم الانبياء ، ولا يصل عقولنا إلى فرق بين بين النبوة والامامة ، وما دلت عليه الاخبار فقد عرفته ، والله تعالى يعلم حقائق أحوالهم صلوات الله عليهم أجمعين
To our knowledge there is no reason not to describe the Imams as Prophets except consideration to the status of the Final Prophet. Our intellect too, cannot perceive a distinction between Nabuwwah (prophethood) and Imamah. (Source: Bihar Al-Anwar, Volume 26, p.82)

Allama Majlisi is also unable to differentiate between the two. Exactly same situation of Shaikh Mufeed.

Quote

Shia scholar Muhsin al-Kharazi says in “Bidayat al-Ma`arif al-Ilahiya” 1/11:

كما انه (أي الإمام) يتصف بصفات النبي أيضاً لكونه خليفة له، فان كان النبي معصوماً فهو أيضاً معصوم…. وهكذا فالإمام يقوم مقام النبي في جميع صفاته عدا كونه نبياً
[Also the Imam has the qualities of the prophet as well because he’s his successor, so if the prophet was infallible then he also is infallible (…) and thus the Imam takes the place of the prophet in all of his qualities except he isn’t a prophet.]

So, only change of title. Everything else is same.

 

14 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

Now, let us turn the table! Imām al-Bukhārī (Sahih, Kitab Fadhail as-Sahaba, hadith #3486) records:
 

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لقد كان فيما قبلكم من الأمم محدثون فإن يك في أمتي أحد فإنه عمر

 
The Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, said: 
 
Verily, among the past Ummahs were muhadathūn. If there is any of them in my Ummah, it is ‘Umar.
 
muhadath (plural, muhadathūn) is someone to whom angels, peace be upon them, speak. He may be a prophet and may not be. But, in terms of access to angels, and communication with them, there is no difference between a muhadath and a prophet. Sayyidah Maryam, peace be upon her, was one of the past muhadathūn. Allāh states:
 

وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَىٰ نِسَاءِ الْعَالَمِينَ

 
And (remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam! Verily, Allāh has chosen you, purified you, and chosen you above the women of the 'Ālamīn (mankind and jinn) (of her lifetime)."
Qur’ān 3:42

Brother, this hadith is same like hadith which say if there would be a prophet  after me then it would have been umar.

Both these ahadith are in negation. If it is true (for the sake of argument) then it means umar r.a was a muhadath. But history shows he never received any such wahi.

In previous ummah there used to be muhadath. But with the end of prophet hood, this door of revelation is also closed. Interpretation of Ibn Hajar is wrong because there are other mutawatur narrations which reject this possibility. Ahadith are authority, not the scholars, if they go against it.

Ibn ‘Abbas said:
The Prophet(ﷺ) lifted the curtain (and saw that) the people were  standing in rows(of prayers) behind Abu Bakr. He said: O people, there remained nothing that gives good tidings from prophethood except a  true dream which a Muslim has himself or which another Muslim has for  him. I have been prohibited to recite the Qur’an while bowing or  prostration. As regards owing, exalt the Lord in it, and as to  prostration, make supplication with exertion in it, that is worthy of  being accepted. Sunan Abi Dawud 876

This hadith is mutawatur. For more read page 192 here http://dlia.ir/kotob/arabic/531/beharo_al_anvar_054/index.html

 

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6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Assalam o Alaikum borther,

Even if this translation is incorrect but still then the overall meaning of what shaikh Mufeed was trying to say is same. Moreover other scholars also had same belief.

Allama Majlisi is also unable to differentiate between the two. Exactly same situation of Shaikh Mufeed.

So, only change of title. Everything else is same.

:bismillah:

No that's only your interpretation (as usual). 

Firstly, the quotation by Sheikh Al Mufid r.h is mentioned under the chapter called:

– القول في الفرق بين الرسل والأنبياء عليهم السلام

 
"The Statement about the DIFFERENCE between messengers and prophets, peace be upon them."
 

 

This establishes Shaykh al-Mufīd’s aim: he wanted to examine the difference between messengers and prophets, peace be upon them all. Then, Shaykh al-Mufīd stated:
 

واتفقت الإمامية على أن كل رسول فهو نبي وليس كل نبي فهو رسول،

 
The Imāmiyyah are unanimous upon the fact that EVERY messenger is a prophet, but not every prophet is a messenger.
 
This is because not all prophets, peace be upon them, were sent with a new book or a new Sharī’ah. Those of them that were given a new scripture or law are the messengers. The rest of them only came to teach and implement the book or law given to the messengers among them. This is why Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, added:
 

وقد كان من أنبياء الله عز وجل حفظة لشرائع الرسل وخلفائهم في المقام،

 
Verily, among the prophets of Allāh, the Almighty, were those who were PRESERVERS of the Sharī’ahs of the messengers, and were their khalīfahs in the rank.
 

In other words, some prophets were given no book or Sharī’ah. Their only job was to teach the people about the books and Sharī’ahs of the past prophets, and to implement them if they could. Usually, a messenger came with a new book or a new Sharī’ah. When he died, prophets came after him to teach his book and implement his Sharī’ah. They were his Khalīfahs only in the teaching and implementation of the book and/or the Sharī’ah. Other than teaching and implementing the book or Sharī’ah of the previous messenger, these prophets did nothing more. They received no legislative wahy, and no scripture from Allāh, and no Sharī’ah!
 

Is this not true? Is it not true that some, if not the majority of the prophets, were only like khalīfahs who only preserved the teachings and laws of a messenger? Is it not the same thing that Allāh has stated here:
 
Verily, We did send down the Tawrah (to Mūsā), therein was guidance and light, BY WHICH THE PROPHETS, WHO SUBMITTED THEMSELVES TO ALLĀH, AND THE RABBIS AND PRIESTS RULED AND JUDGED THE JEWS, FOR TO THEM WAS ENTRUSTED THE PRESERVATION OF ALLĀH’S BOOK, and they were witnesses to it.
Qur’ān 5:44

 

This blessed verse informs us that:
 
1. The Prophet Mūsā, peace be upon him, was sent by Allāh with the Tawrah, thereby proving that he was both a prophet and messenger.
2. After him, Allāh entrusted the preservation of the Tawrah to a succession of prophets, and after them to the rabbis and priests of Israel.
3. These prophets were given NO legislative wahy, or book or Sharī’ah. Rather, they performed the SAME function as the rabbis and priests of Israel.
4. The prophets, the rabbis and the priests were equal witnesses to the Tawrah.
5. Other than titles, there were no differences between the prophets, the rabbis and the priests in their preservation of the Tawrah.

 

 

This is what Sheikh Mufid r.h really said:

 
وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.
 

The Sharī’ah has only forbidden the naming of our Imāms with prophethood, although logic allows this due to their attaining what THOSE OF THE PROPHETS WE MENTIONED attained.

 

Look at how Khorasānī has completely altered what Shaykh al-Mufīd said, to support his dishonest agenda:
 
The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they(Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them.
 
There is NO mention of “qualities” in the text. Moreover, the word “claiming” is NOT in the text. Lastly, Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, was only referring to SOME of the prophets whom he mentioned, while Khorasānī doctored his words to look as though he was referring to all prophets!!! Such is what they do!

 

It is our belief that our Imāms, peace be upon them all, are the preservers of the Qur’ān and the Sharī’ah of Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, after him. In this way, they are NOT different from the majority of the past prophets who were also only preservers of the book and Sharī’ah of a previous messenger. This was what Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, was emphasizing. If not that prophethood had ended, the Imāms, peace be upon them, too would have been declared prophets by Allāh, since they perform the exact functions of the many (if not the majority) of prophets.
 
 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3223:refuting-khorasani-do-shias-believe-in-finality-of-prophethood&catid=205&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

 

Again, please read the article carefully. I understand that you got this video in the OP and the quotations from anti-shia websites, but please don't misinterpret things and claim that Shias believe that the Imams A.S were similar to all the Prophets A.S. The Imāmiyyah are unanimous that Prophethood (Prophets and Messengers) has ended with Prophet Muhammad S.A.W. 

 

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Barqi from abu Talib from Sadir who has said that he asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) the following.

"A certain group of people believe that you are gods. They read to us from the Quran about it. And it is He Who in heaven is God and in earth is God." (43:84). The Imam (a.s.) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and Allah also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. I swear by Allah, Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Resurrection. The only thing from Allah to them will be His anger." The narrator has said that he said, "Among us there is a group of people who believe that you are messenger and read to from the Holy Quran. "O Messengers, eat of the good things and do righteousness; surely I know the things you do (23:51). The Imam (a.s.) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and Allah and Hid Messenger also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Judgment. The only thing from Allah towards them will be His anger."

 

The narrator has said that he then asked, "What are you then?" the Imam (a.s.) said, "We are the treasuries of the knowledge of Allah. We are the translators of the commands of Allah. We are infallible people. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has commanded people to obey us and prohibited them to disobey us. We are the complete Divine authority over all that is below the heavens and above the earth."
Usool al Kafi, Volume 1, Kitab al Hujah, Chapter 53 Hadith 6

 
 
6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

In previous ummah there used to be muhadath. But with the end of prophet hood, this door of revelation is also closed. Interpretation of Ibn Hajar is wrong because there are other mutawatur narrations which reject this possibility. Ahadith are authority, not the scholars, if they go against it.

 

Again, no doubt that the door of revelation is also close, this is agreed by Shias as well. What Ibn Hajar and Al-Tayyibī mentioned was regarding Divine Inspiration, not regarding revelations etc. Ahadith are authority, but what will you do if authentic hadiths contradicts each other? I'm sure Ibn Hajar who is a very well known and big scholar in Ahlul Sunnah, would've known these "hadiths" that goes against this view before writing his statement. Either it's your own interpretation that is wrong, or the scholars, the hadiths etc that agrees with this view are wrong as well.

 

6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Ibn ‘Abbas said:
The Prophet(ﷺ) lifted the curtain (and saw that) the people were  standing in rows(of prayers) behind Abu Bakr. He said: O people, there remained nothing that gives good tidings from prophethood except a  true dream which a Muslim has himself or which another Muslim has for  him. I have been prohibited to recite the Qur’an while bowing or  prostration. As regards owing, exalt the Lord in it, and as to  prostration, make supplication with exertion in it, that is worthy of  being accepted. Sunan Abi Dawud 876

This hadith is mutawatur. For more read page 192 here http://dlia.ir/kotob/arabic/531/beharo_al_anvar_054/index.html

 

[192]
الآخرة " فإنها بشارة المؤمن عند الموت أن الله قد غفر لك ولمن يحملك إلى قبرك ( 1 )
63 - وعن ابن عباس " لهم البشرى في الحيوة الدنيا " قال : هي الرؤيا الحسنة
يراها المسلم لنفسه أو لبعض إخوانه . ( 2 )
64 - وعن ابن عباس ، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله : قال : ألا إنه لم يبق من مبشرات
النبوة إلا الرؤيا الصالحة يراها المسلم أو ترى له ( 3 ) .
65 - وعن أبي الطفيل عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : لا نبوة بعدي إلا المبشرات . قيل
يا رسول الله ، وما المبشرات ؟ قال : الرؤيا الصالحة
 . ( 4 )
66 - وعن أبي قتادة قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : الرؤيا الصالحة بشرى من الله
وهي جزء من أجزاء النبوة ( 5 ) .
67 - وعن أبي هريرة قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : إذا اقترب الزمان لم تكد رؤيا
المؤمن تكذب ، وأصدقهم رؤيا أصدقهم حديثا ، ورؤيا المسلم جزء من ستة وأربعين
جزء من النبوة . والرؤيا ثلاث : فالرؤيا الصالحة بشرى من الله ، والرؤيا من تحزين
الشيطان ، والرؤيا مما يحدث الرجل نفسه . وإذا رأى أحدكم ما يكره فليقم وليتفل
ولا يحدث به الناس . واحب القيد في النوم ، وأكره الغل ، القيد ثبات في الدين .
فإن رأى أحدكم رؤيا تعجبه فليقصها إن شاء ، وإن رأى شيئا يكرهه فلا يقصه على
أحد وليقم يصلي ( 6 ) .
68 - وعن عباد بن الصامت أن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله قال : رؤيا المؤمن جزء من ستة .
وأربعين جزء من النبوة ( 7 ) . وعن أنس مثله .
69 - وعن أبي سعيد الخدري عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : إذا رأى أحدكم الرؤيا يحبها
فإنما من الله فليحمد الله عليها وليحدث بها ، وإذا رأى غيره مما يكره فإنما هي
من الشيطان فليستعذ بالله من شرها ولا يذكرها لاحد فإنها لا تضره ( 8 ) .
70 - وعن أبي سعيد أيضا عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : الرؤيا الصالحة جزء من سبعين جزء
من النبوة ( 9 ) .
* ( هامش ) * ( 1 - 9 ) الدر المنثور : ج 3 ، ص 312 . 

 

If I'm not mistaken (my arabic is not so good), only one of the sources mentions the part regarding prophethood (so it's not mutawattir), and @E.L King already told you that the hadith was weak. Anyway if the hadith would be interpreted in your way, it would definitely go against the mutawattir hadiths regarding Imamah etc. 

Also if we accept your view (that any kind of similarities with Prophethood has completely ended, i.e that Allah SWT won't appoint anyone as a Caliph, or someone through Divine Inspiration), wouldn't this mean that we shouldn't believe in the return of Imam Mahdi A.J ? Or will Imam Mahdi A.J just be a regular person, maybe appointed by people? 

 

For the last time, it must be made clear, that the Imams A.S do not receive any kind of revelation, they may be divinely inspired (protected by Allah SWT and appointed by Him) but they do not receive any kind of new revelation. Our hadiths are clear on the matter, the Imams A.S has inherited the religious authority and knowledge from Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.

Regarding the hadiths with the angels, it is not problematic because it says that they hear them. It does not mean that the angels reveal anything new, or even talk with them. Also, you must stop picking single hadiths where you interpret them according to your own thoughts. This hadiths may only mention this as a difference, maybe because that in this context it was about angels. You have to look at all hadiths on the matter that talk about Imamah / Prophethood, as our scholars do. Hadiths must be judged according to the sand, matn, the context, compared to the Quran, with other hadiths etc. This is why it's dangerous if layman people simply pick and choose random hadiths without any knowledge regarding them.

 

Wsalam

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On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:

This is what Sheikh Mufid r.h really said:

 
وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.
 

The Sharī’ah has only forbidden the naming of our Imāms with prophethood, although logic allows this due to their attaining what THOSE OF THE PROPHETS WE MENTIONED attained.

 

Look at how Khorasānī has completely altered what Shaykh al-Mufīd said, to support his dishonest agenda:
 
The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they(Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them.
 
There is NO mention of “qualities” in the text. Moreover, the word “claiming” is NOT in the text. Lastly, Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, was only referring to SOME of the prophets whom he mentioned, while Khorasānī doctored his words to look as though he was referring to all prophets!!! Such is what they do!

That's why I said the overall view point of Shaikh Mufeed do not change even if the translation is wrong. That is except the name or title there is no difference between the Imam and prophet. Imams have attained same level as prophets have attained everything same as Messengers except one thing (they get no new sharia) and they were caliphs of messsengers. Therefore logic allows this but sharia not. Is this not a state of  confusion. Imams are not prophets but are at exact same level and are doing exactly same job. In short only name changed. Brother name is not important, its the qualities which matter.

On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:

Verily, We did send down the Tawrah (to Mūsā), therein was guidance and light, BY WHICH THE PROPHETS, WHO SUBMITTED THEMSELVES TO ALLĀH, AND THE RABBIS AND PRIESTS RULED AND JUDGED THE JEWS, FOR TO THEM WAS ENTRUSTED THE PRESERVATION OF ALLĀH’S BOOK, and they were witnesses to it.
Qur’ān 5:44

 

This blessed verse informs us that:
 
1. The Prophet Mūsā, peace be upon him, was sent by Allāh with the Tawrah, thereby proving that he was both a prophet and messenger.
2. After him, Allāh entrusted the preservation of the Tawrah to a succession of prophets, and after them to the rabbis and priests of Israel.
3. These prophets were given NO legislative wahy, or book or Sharī’ah. Rather, they performed the SAME function as the rabbis and priests of Israel.
4. The prophets, the rabbis and the priests were equal witnesses to the Tawrah.
5. Other than titles, there were no differences between the prophets, the rabbis and the priests in their preservation of the Tawrah.

After prophets to rabbis and priests. Then Shaikh Mufeed should have called Imams like rabbis and priests, not like prophets. As now the door of prophet hood is closed for forever.

There are many many differences between prophets and rabbis and priests (who performed the same job). For example revelation. Every prophet used to receive revelation but same is not true for rabbis/priests. Content of revelation (i.e whether its a new sharia or not) does not matter. Read stories of prophets which are by name mentioned in Quran. They all received revelations depending on their situations and need. But if you compare prophets and Imams you will find no difference except the title. Same is said by Shaikh Mufeed.

Following narrations is a clear example that Imams get revelations. Its not the inspiration brother. Inspirations is the matter of heart. Allah has commanded to obey us. This is clear revelation matter.

On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:

The narrator has said that he then asked, "What are you then?" the Imam (a.s.) said, "We are the treasuries of the knowledge of Allah. We are the translators of the commands of Allah. We are infallible people. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has commanded people to obey us and prohibited them to disobey us. We are the complete Divine authority over all that is below the heavens and above the earth."

 

On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:
On 1/31/2017 at 7:56 AM, Fahad Sani said:

 

[192]
الآخرة " فإنها بشارة المؤمن عند الموت أن الله قد غفر لك ولمن يحملك إلى قبرك ( 1 )
63 - وعن ابن عباس " لهم البشرى في الحيوة الدنيا " قال : هي الرؤيا الحسنة
يراها المسلم لنفسه أو لبعض إخوانه . ( 2 )
64 - وعن ابن عباس ، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله : قال : ألا إنه لم يبق من مبشرات
النبوة إلا الرؤيا الصالحة يراها المسلم أو ترى له ( 3 ) .
65 - وعن أبي الطفيل عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : لا نبوة بعدي إلا المبشرات . قيل
يا رسول الله ، وما المبشرات ؟ قال : الرؤيا الصالحة
 . ( 4 )
66 - وعن أبي قتادة قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : الرؤيا الصالحة بشرى من الله
وهي جزء من أجزاء النبوة ( 5 ) .
67 - وعن أبي هريرة قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : إذا اقترب الزمان لم تكد رؤيا
المؤمن تكذب ، وأصدقهم رؤيا أصدقهم حديثا ، ورؤيا المسلم جزء من ستة وأربعين
جزء من النبوة . والرؤيا ثلاث : فالرؤيا الصالحة بشرى من الله ، والرؤيا من تحزين
الشيطان ، والرؤيا مما يحدث الرجل نفسه . وإذا رأى أحدكم ما يكره فليقم وليتفل
ولا يحدث به الناس . واحب القيد في النوم ، وأكره الغل ، القيد ثبات في الدين .
فإن رأى أحدكم رؤيا تعجبه فليقصها إن شاء ، وإن رأى شيئا يكرهه فلا يقصه على
أحد وليقم يصلي ( 6 ) .
68 - وعن عباد بن الصامت أن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله قال : رؤيا المؤمن جزء من ستة .
وأربعين جزء من النبوة ( 7 ) . وعن أنس مثله .
69 - وعن أبي سعيد الخدري عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : إذا رأى أحدكم الرؤيا يحبها
فإنما من الله فليحمد الله عليها وليحدث بها ، وإذا رأى غيره مما يكره فإنما هي
من الشيطان فليستعذ بالله من شرها ولا يذكرها لاحد فإنها لا تضره ( 8 ) .
70 - وعن أبي سعيد أيضا عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : الرؤيا الصالحة جزء من سبعين جزء
من النبوة ( 9 ) .
* ( هامش ) * ( 1 - 9 ) الدر المنثور : ج 3 ، ص 312 . 

 

If I'm not mistaken (my arabic is not so good), only one of the sources mentions the part regarding prophethood (so it's not mutawattir), and @E.L King already told you that the hadith was weak. Anyway if the hadith would be interpreted in your way, it would definitely go against the mutawattir hadiths regarding Imamah etc. 

Also if we accept your view (that any kind of similarities with Prophethood has completely ended, i.e that Allah SWT won't appoint anyone as a Caliph, or someone through Divine Inspiration), wouldn't this mean that we shouldn't believe in the return of Imam Mahdi A.J ? Or will Imam Mahdi A.J just be a regular person, maybe appointed by people? 

Regarding the hadiths with the angels, it is not problematic because it says that they hear them. It does not mean that the angels reveal anything new, or even talk with them. Also, you must stop picking single hadiths where you interpret them according to your own thoughts. This hadiths may only mention this as a difference, maybe because that in this context it was about angels. You have to look at all hadiths on the matter that talk about Imamah / Prophethood, as our scholars do. Hadiths must be judged according to the sand, matn, the context, compared to the Quran, with other hadiths etc. This is why it's dangerous if layman people simply pick and choose random hadiths without any knowledge regarding them.

Its mutawatur if you collect from all sources. Moreover E.L king rejected this but accept the following narrations, which clearly says Imams also get revelations like prophets. To which you said Imam can not get revelations.

Hasan b. Abbas once asked Imam al-Rida, peace be upon him, in a  letter. “What is the difference between a messenger, a prophet, and an  Imam?” The Imam answered as follows: “The messenger (rasul) is a  person to whom Jibril descends and who both sees him and hears the  words that he speaks. He is thus in communication with divine revelation (wahy), which he sometimes receives in the form of a dream,  as was the case with Ibrahim, peace be upon him.The prophet (nabiyy)  sometimes hears the words spoken by Jibril and at other times sees him  without hearing anything from him. The Imam hears the words that  Jibril utters without seeing him.” (al-Kulayni, al-Kafi, Vol. I,  p.176, hadeeth # 2)

Again let me repeat. Inspiration is a matter of heart. Hearing the words of angel and getting commands is a revelation just like prophets. Because the time when prophet get revelations they dont see angel. AN dwhen they see the angel at that time they dont get any revelation. More confusions. Read above narration carefully.

On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:

For the last time, it must be made clear, that the Imams A.S do not receive any kind of revelation, they may be divinely inspired (protected by Allah SWT and appointed by Him) but they do not receive any kind of new revelation. Our hadiths are clear on the matter, the Imams A.S has inherited the religious authority and knowledge from Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.

 

Brother, you also seems confusing. First you said they do not receive any kind of revelation. Then you said they do not receive any kind of new revelation. I think you are mixing inspiration with revelation. Inspiration is related to heart, not with angel.

Moreover how can we verify from narrations of Imams that whether are part of old revelation or new? Because there are many narrations in shia books which are ghuluw based and taqqiyah based. One more level of confusion.

Edited by Fahad Sani
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On 1/31/2017 at 6:44 AM, The Straight Path said:

 

You know that there are many narrators in between Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and Bukhari apart from the Sahabas right? The English versions online only names one narrator "Umar narrates.." etc. but in the Arabic, there are much longer chains going all the way from Prophet Muhammad S.A.W to scholars like Bukhari and Muslim with many narrators in between. I suggest you read this blog post by brother @Qa'im:

You may have a lot of hadiths with Prophet's S.A.W name on it, but how can you be sure that all of them are truly authentic? 

I know this brother. And not all are authentic. You can find separate  books on sahih and weak/fabricated narrations. I was talking about  only authentic narrations which number around 10 thousand (whose sanad goes directly back to Prophet s.a.w.w without any defect) from  all ahlul sunnah hadith books.

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On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:

For the last time, it must be made clear, that the Imams A.S do not receive any kind of revelation, they may be divinely inspired (protected by Allah SWT and appointed by Him) but they do not receive any kind of new revelation. Our hadiths are clear on the matter, the Imams A.S has inherited the religious authority and knowledge from Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.

This matter is not only limited to Shaikh Mufeed or Baqir Majlisi but a widely accepted twelver shia concept (which is more likely an invention of ghullat, who used to exalt ahlebait beyond their true merits).

For more clarification and explanation read these articles. ONE and TWO

Jazak Allah Khairan.

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The Prophet had 2 eyes, ears, hands, legs, kidneys, lungs.
The Prophet had 1 nose, head, heart, liver, stomach.

I have all of the above. Am I doing ghuluw?

Similarly, the Prophet (saw) and the Imams (as) had some qualities and characteristics that were the same and some that were different. The biggest difference is that the Prophet received the Quran and the Imams didn't.

Everything else you are trying to say or allude is an exercise in futility.

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7 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

That's why I said the overall view point of Shaikh Mufeed do not change even if the translation is wrong. That is except the name or title there is no difference between the Imam and prophet. Imams have attained same level as prophets have attained everything same as Messengers except one thing (they get no new sharia) and they were caliphs of messsengers. Therefore logic allows this but sharia not. Is this not a state of  confusion. Imams are not prophets but are at exact same level and are doing exactly same job. In short only name changed. Brother name is not important, its the qualities which matter.

In fact, the Imam is not even a prophet, meaning that a code of law and rules is not revealed to him, though he is muhaddath (addressed), meaning that angels speak with him. However, his relation to the angels is not like the relation of the prophet to the angel of revelation, who communicates the Divine commands to the prophet, since the principles of all the commands have previously been explained, and messengership and prophecy have been sealed with the demise of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family).

 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2714:the-accusation-of-“exaggeration=”-ghuluww-against-the-shi=‘a=&catid=189&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

There are THREE different ranks: prophethood, Imāmah and messengership. Of the three ranks, it is ONLY messengers who receive legislative wahya book or a Sharī’ah from Allāh.

 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3223:refuting-khorasani-do-shias-believe-in-finality-of-prophethood&catid=205&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

Al-Tayyibī said: “The meaning of al-Muhadath is a person who RECEIVES DIVINE INSPIRATION, WHO HAS REACHED THE LEVEL OF THE PROPHET, peace be upon him, IN TRUTHFULNESS”. The meaning then is: There were DIVINELY INSPIRED PROPHETS among those before you, IF THERE WERE ANYONE WHO HAS REACHED THIS STATUS in my Ummah, it is ‘Umar.”

 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3223:refuting-khorasani-do-shias-believe-in-finality-of-prophethood&catid=205&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

 

7 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Its mutawatur if you collect from all sources. Moreover E.L king rejected this but accept the following narrations, which clearly says Imams also get revelations like prophets. To which you said Imam can not get revelations.

Hasan b. Abbas once asked Imam al-Rida, peace be upon him, in a  letter. “What is the difference between a messenger, a prophet, and an  Imam?” The Imam answered as follows: “The messenger (rasul) is a  person to whom Jibril descends and who both sees him and hears the  words that he speaks. He is thus in communication with divine revelation (wahy), which he sometimes receives in the form of a dream,  as was the case with Ibrahim, peace be upon him.The prophet (nabiyy)  sometimes hears the words spoken by Jibril and at other times sees him  without hearing anything from him. The Imam hears the words that  Jibril utters without seeing him.” (al-Kulayni, al-Kafi, Vol. I,  p.176, hadeeth # 2)

 

I don't understand why you keep quoting the same hadith over and over again, as i told you previously, you have to look at all the hadiths on the matter. In this one, it says that the Imam A.S hears the words that Jibril A.S utters, which doesn't have to mean that Jibril A.S reveals anything new to the Imams A.S. Shia scholars agree that the Imams A.S inherited the religious authority and knowledge from the Prophet S.A.W, they are not allowed and can not say anything new or add anything new to the religion. They follow the Sunnah of the Prophet S.A.W as we all do. Let's for the sake of argument say that this narration means that Imams A.S receive divine revelation (wahy), then it'll be rejected due to other mutawattir narrations saying otherwise.

 

8 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Brother, you also seems confusing. First you said they do not receive any kind of revelation. Then you said they do not receive any kind of new revelation. I think you are mixing inspiration with revelation. Inspiration is related to heart, not with angel.

 

What I meant with revelation, is receiving divine wahy such as Messengers do. Just because the Imams A.S may be able to hear the angels, does not mean that they receive any divine revelation. 

In fact, the Imam is not even a prophet, meaning that a code of law and rules is not revealed to him, though he is muhaddath (addressed), meaning that angels speak with him. However, his relation to the angels is not like the relation of the prophet to the angel of revelation, who communicates the Divine commands to the prophet, since the principles of all the commands have previously been explained, and messengership and prophecy have been sealed with the demise of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family).

 
A good quote from a brother who wrote this article:
 
"What exactly are you implying? That accepting the presence of similarities between prophets (who are NOT messengers) and Imāms automatically means rejection of the finality of prophethood? We put it to you: the only function of non-messenger prophets was the preservation of the scripture and the Sunnah of the last messenger in their Ummah. Are you saying that this function has been banned in this Ummah?  We CHALLENGE you to make such a claim, and see yourself ridiculed.
 
Moreover, are you saying that it is impossible for a non-prophet to receive non-legislative wahy, or to meet angels, or to be infallible? We CHALLENGE you to dare say such, and have your KUFR exposed to the world."
 
 
 
In conclusion, before you accuse of Shias for having these kind of beliefs, feel free to check out your own sources and what some of your scholars have also said in this regard. 
 
Prophethood has ended, period. Just because some may reach a similar position due to their obedience and truthfulness (as in the case with some of the Awliya mentioned in the Quran, not as Prophets or Messengers) or as one of your scholars has said, does not mean that they should be called Prophets, since Prophethood (with both Messengers & Prophets) has clearly ended.
 
 
Anyway, to make it more clear. When Sheikh Mufeed r.h compared Imams A.S with Prophets A.S, he only meant those of them who were not messengers and did not receive any legislative wahy, a book or a Sharī’ah from Allāh.
 
8 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Moreover how can we verify from narrations of Imams that whether are part of old revelation or new? Because there are many narrations in shia books which are ghuluw based and taqqiyah based. One more level of confusion.

 

This is indeed a weak argument. It's like I'd say how can you be sure that all of your hadiths have not been affected by Ummayad propaganda or fabricated by nasibis? Have I destroyed Sunnism now brother? You keep claiming that there are a lot of contradictions in Shia hadiths etc. while actually if you look at other sources than Sahih Bukhari / Muslim, you'll find many other hadiths that would be considered hasan / sahih in isnad but still contradict other "authentic" ones.

 

--

 

Muhammad Qasim Nanotvi, the founder of Deoband seminary seems to conform to the Sufi idea of Seal i.e. honour and not last.[39] He writes,

According to the layman, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings on him, being Khatam is supposed to have appeared after all the other prophets. But men of understanding and the wise know it very well that being the first or the last, chronologically, does not carry any weight. How could, therefore, the words of the Holy Qur'an "'But he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of Prophets" (33:40)[1] mean to glorify him? But I know very well that none from among the Muslims would be prepared to agree with the common men.

"In short, if the meaning of the word Finality is accepted as explained, then his Finality of Prophethood will not be exclusively attached to the past Prophet. But even if for instance another Prophet appeared during the era of the Prophet then too, him being the Final Prophet remains intact as normal."[40]

"If for instance even after the era of the Prophet any Prophet is born, then too it will not make any difference to the Finality of Prophethood of the Prophet."[41]

 

Abdul Wahhab She'raani states;[35]

"Thus, without doubt, ...... prophethood has not been abolished and it is only law-bearing prophethood that is abolished"[44]

 

Ali al-Qari, an Imam of the Hanafi school and a renowned interpreter of Hadith, wrote;[35]

"That there is no revelation after the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is false; there is no truth in it. Yes! in the Hadith are the words 'La Nabiyya Ba'di' which, according to scholars, means that there will not be such a prophet in the future who brings such a law that abrogates that of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)."[46]

 

 

Mohiyyiud Din ibni Arabi states;

From the study and contemplation of the Darud we have arrived at the definite conclusion that there shall, from among the Muslims, certainly be persons whose status, in the matter of prophethood, shall advance to the level of prophets, if Allah pleases. But they shall not be given any book of law.[49]

 

Here are scholars even going so far as claiming Prophets can come after Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and some say there may be people who could reach a similar status. If you want to argue that Shias do not believe in the finality of Prophethood, then please take a look first at what your scholars and hadiths says.

 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2124:imamat-against-finality-prophethood&catid=166&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

My point of sharing this was only to show you that accusations can easily be made, with simply quoting random quotes from scholars without actually reading the chapter yourself, or trying to understand the subject before raising any objections. 

 

As I said in the other thread, I think I've made my point and there is nothing more to say from me. 

 

 

May Allah SWT guide us all and may He make us follow the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and obey his successors A.S.

JazakAllah kheir brother

:ws:

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12 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

In fact, the Imam is not even a prophet, meaning that a code of law and rules is not revealed to him, though he is muhaddath (addressed), meaning that angels speak with him. However, his relation to the angels is not like the relation of the prophet to the angel of revelation, who communicates the Divine commands to the prophet, since the principles of all the commands have previously been explained, and messengership and prophecy have been sealed with the demise of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family).

 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2714:the-accusation-of-“exaggeration=”-ghuluww-against-the-shi=‘a=&catid=189&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

There are THREE different ranks: prophethood, Imāmah and messengership. Of the three ranks, it is ONLY messengers who receive legislative wahya book or a Sharī’ah from Allāh.

 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3223:refuting-khorasani-do-shias-believe-in-finality-of-prophethood&catid=205&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

Al-Tayyibī said: “The meaning of al-Muhadath is a person who RECEIVES DIVINE INSPIRATION, WHO HAS REACHED THE LEVEL OF THE PROPHET, peace be upon him, IN TRUTHFULNESS”. The meaning then is: There were DIVINELY INSPIRED PROPHETS among those before you, IF THERE WERE ANYONE WHO HAS REACHED THIS STATUS in my Ummah, it is ‘Umar.”

 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3223:refuting-khorasani-do-shias-believe-in-finality-of-prophethood&catid=205&lang=en&Itemid=115

Its not about what they receive in revelations, but the point is that every prophet get revelations from Allah swt and has ability to perform certain miracles. Prophet David a.s also got a separate book called Zabur. While the same is not true for Imams or any non prophet.

Inspiration is a matter related to heart not to angel. In inspiration a person does not talk to angels. Allah swt says: [And He inspired it to what is wrong for it and what is right for it] [Al-Shams 91:8] Ilhaam (inspiration) is something that falls in the heart, so that the heart is comforted by it.

Talking to angels is not inspiration but revelation. Thats why I am saying that such narrations are from ghullat (cursed people).

 

12 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

I don't understand why you keep quoting the same hadith over and over again, as i told you previously, you have to look at all the hadiths on the matter. In this one, it says that the Imam A.S hears the words that Jibril A.S utters, which doesn't have to mean that Jibril A.S reveals anything new to the Imams A.S. Shia scholars agree that the Imams A.S inherited the religious authority and knowledge from the Prophet S.A.W, they are not allowed and can not say anything new or add anything new to the religion. They follow the Sunnah of the Prophet S.A.W as we all do. Let's for the sake of argument say that this narration means that Imams A.S receive divine revelation (wahy), then it'll be rejected due to other mutawattir narrations saying otherwise.

This is not the only hadith. There are many others as well. Like this one. Which also says Imams hears reports from angels. If this is not revelation then what is.

 

Moreover, how can we verify that what the Imams are saying is not the new thing but same which is revealed to Prophet s.a.w.w.? Also as per Nisa 59, in case of dispute with ulil amr (Imams in case of twelver shias) we have to refer to Allah and to His Prophet s.a.w.w. To ALlah means to Quran. But to Prophet s.a.w.w means what? As shai beleive that sunnah of Prophet s.a.w.w is same what Imams have said and acted upon. Then how will we distinguish between narrations of ghuluw and narrations of taqiyyah etc.

 

12 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

What I meant with revelation, is receiving divine wahy such as Messengers do. Just because the Imams A.S may be able to hear the angels, does not mean that they receive any divine revelation. 

In fact, the Imam is not even a prophet, meaning that a code of law and rules is not revealed to him, though he is muhaddath (addressed), meaning that angels speak with him. However, his relation to the angels is not like the relation of the prophet to the angel of revelation, who communicates the Divine commands to the prophet, since the principles of all the commands have previously been explained, and messengership and prophecy have been sealed with the demise of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family).

 
A good quote from a brother who wrote this article:
 
"What exactly are you implying? That accepting the presence of similarities between prophets (who are NOT messengers) and Imāms automatically means rejection of the finality of prophethood? We put it to you: the only function of non-messenger prophets was the preservation of the scripture and the Sunnah of the last messenger in their Ummah. Are you saying that this function has been banned in this Ummah?  We CHALLENGE you to make such a claim, and see yourself ridiculed.
 
Moreover, are you saying that it is impossible for a non-prophet to receive non-legislative wahy, or to meet angels, or to be infallible? We CHALLENGE you to dare say such, and have your KUFR exposed to the world."
 
 

Finality of prophet hood means end of wahi (revelation). ANyone who claims he has got wahi after end of prophet hood then its same like some one says he is a prophet. Revelation is the main argument for someone being a prophet. And its the major difference between a prophet and a non prophet. But as per shia narrations which are nothing but ghuluw says that both prophets and Imams are able to hear angels and get reports with the only difference being Imams can not see the angel while prophets can but only in dreams. (Not a big major difference).

 

12 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

This is indeed a weak argument. It's like I'd say how can you be sure that all of your hadiths have not been affected by Ummayad propaganda or fabricated by nasibis? Have I destroyed Sunnism now brother? You keep claiming that there are a lot of contradictions in Shia hadiths etc. while actually if you look at other sources than Sahih Bukhari / Muslim, you'll find many other hadiths that would be considered hasan / sahih in isnad but still contradict other "authentic" ones.

No. this thing does not affect ahlul sunnah ahadith. There is not a single authentic hadith in bukhari, muslim and other major books which is supporting ummayad or nasibis. There are separate books of ahlul sunnah which contain all such fabricated ahadith.

And the level of contradiction in shia narrations is much more than in ahlul sunnah. Because of ghuluw and taqiyyah. Such thing is very minor issue in ahlul sunnah ahadith.

 

12 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

Muhammad Qasim Nanotvi, the founder of Deoband seminary seems to conform to the Sufi idea of Seal i.e. honour and not last.[39] He writes,

According to the layman, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings on him, being Khatam is supposed to have appeared after all the other prophets. But men of understanding and the wise know it very well that being the first or the last, chronologically, does not carry any weight. How could, therefore, the words of the Holy Qur'an "'But he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of Prophets" (33:40)[1] mean to glorify him? But I know very well that none from among the Muslims would be prepared to agree with the common men.

"In short, if the meaning of the word Finality is accepted as explained, then his Finality of Prophethood will not be exclusively attached to the past Prophet. But even if for instance another Prophet appeared during the era of the Prophet then too, him being the Final Prophet remains intact as normal."[40]

"If for instance even after the era of the Prophet any Prophet is born, then too it will not make any difference to the Finality of Prophethood of the Prophet."[41]

 

Abdul Wahhab She'raani states;[35]

"Thus, without doubt, ...... prophethood has not been abolished and it is only law-bearing prophethood that is abolished"[44]

 

Ali al-Qari, an Imam of the Hanafi school and a renowned interpreter of Hadith, wrote;[35]

"That there is no revelation after the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is false; there is no truth in it. Yes! in the Hadith are the words 'La Nabiyya Ba'di' which, according to scholars, means that there will not be such a prophet in the future who brings such a law that abrogates that of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)."[46]

 

 

Mohiyyiud Din ibni Arabi states;

From the study and contemplation of the Darud we have arrived at the definite conclusion that there shall, from among the Muslims, certainly be persons whose status, in the matter of prophethood, shall advance to the level of prophets, if Allah pleases. But they shall not be given any book of law.[49]

 

Here are scholars even going so far as claiming Prophets can come after Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and some say there may be people who could reach a similar status. If you want to argue that Shias do not believe in the finality of Prophethood, then please take a look first at what your scholars and hadiths says.

 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2124:imamat-against-finality-prophethood&catid=166&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

My point of sharing this was only to show you that accusations can easily be made, with simply quoting random quotes from scholars without actually reading the chapter yourself, or trying to understand the subject before raising any objections. 

 

As I said in the other thread, I think I've made my point and there is nothing more to say from me. 

 

 

May Allah SWT guide us all and may He make us follow the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and obey his successors A.S.

JazakAllah kheir brother

:ws:

Brother, honsestly speaking, Sufis are misguided people. They do not represent true manhaj of AHlul Sunnah. Deobands are half sufis and brelvis are full sufis. These are mere views of scholars. Which are not at all hujjah on anyone if they are contradicting ahadith.

This one hadith is enough to refute their all false claims.

Ibn ‘Abbas said:
The Prophet(ﷺ) lifted the curtain (and saw that) the people were  standing in rows(of prayers) behind Abu Bakr. He said: O people, there remained nothing that gives good tidings from prophethood except a  true dream which a Muslim has himself or which another Muslim has for  him. I have been prohibited to recite the Qur’an while bowing or  prostration. As regards owing, exalt the Lord in it, and as to  prostration, make supplication with exertion in it, that is worthy of  being accepted. Sunan Abi Dawud 876

These ahadith are very explicit and clear in meaning. Anything and any claim and any interpretation of any scholar that goes agaisnt it is totally wrong. Manhaj of Ahlul Sunnah depends on ahadith which are authentic, not on views of Scholars, does not matter how big the scholar is. Ultimate authrity isonly Quran and ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w.

Moreover, not every dream is true. They also need to be verified. All conditions apply which are reported in ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w. Interestingly none of the great sahabah claimed such thing which sufis are doing and fooling laymen.

I think its more than enough.

Jazak Allah Khairan.

W.salam wa rehmatullah wa barakatuhu.

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13 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

The Prophet had 2 eyes, ears, hands, legs, kidneys, lungs.
The Prophet had 1 nose, head, heart, liver, stomach.

I have all of the above. Am I doing ghuluw?

Similarly, the Prophet (saw) and the Imams (as) had some qualities and characteristics that were the same and some that were different. The biggest difference is that the Prophet received the Quran and the Imams didn't.

Everything else you are trying to say or allude is an exercise in futility.

This is now childish.

Ghuluw is on those things which are not verifiable as per Quran and Sunnah. Or which conradicts with Quran and Sunnah.

Not some qualities brother. As per shia narrations they are same except the chnage of title. If not then plz list the differences between the two stations. Its about about Quran but about revelations in general. Which is a major sign for someone's being a prophet.

Truth is that, Imams never recieved any sort of revelation or glad tidings except via true dreams.

That Imams dont know unseen except what is reported in Quran and by Prophet s.a.w.w. Which every one know.

That Imams do not have wilayat takwiniyah. They do not possess power to do miracles etc.

That they were not immune from doing mistakes.

That they got all of their knowledge from Quran and Sunnah and their rank/status via obedience to Quran and Sunnah.

ANd opposed of all this and other similar qualities/attributes is nothing but ghuluw.

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9 hours ago, Qa'im said:

I actually know Abdol Karim Soroush and his son Dabbagh, they are philosophers and academics, and far from experts in theology or jurisprudence.

Modern Sunnis argue that Imamate contradicts the Sealing of Prophethood, mainly because their understanding of this "Sealing" has changed. Traditionally, Sunnis referred to their Caliphs as representatives of God (khalifatullah), believed in sainthood (awliya' and qutub), and attributed miracles to their saints (karamat, kashf, spiritual ascensions), not seeing any contradiction with the Seal. The Seal does not mean that God has locked up the supernatural world, cut off the heavens from the Earth, and stopped uplifting or appointing people. The Seal is actually a finality of books and legislation. The Quran is the final book, the shari`a is the final shari`a, and the Imams cannot bring a new book or shari`a.

In the Quran, non-prophets have received wahi (the mother of Musa), spoken to angels (Maryam), performed miracles (the Sleepers of the Cave), were appointed to leadership (Talut and Dhul Qarnayn), and were given wisdom (Luqman). Therefore there would be no issue with the Imams having these characteristics while not being prophets.

If you believe that Allah will send the Mahdi in the End Times, then you have already accepted the Imamate, because the Mahdi is a divinely-appointed leader of the Muslim Umma, who is protected by Allah, who comes after the Seal of Prophets, who comes from his family, who interprets the religion of Allah and miraculously overcomes all injustices.

Modern sunnis? Not true. Read books and views of classic ahlul sunnah scholars esp of first three hijrah centruies including Bukhari, Muslim, AHmed bin hanbal, Tabari, Nasai, etc plus all sahabah, along with authentic ahadith of Porphet s.a.w.w. They all are speaking the same language. And this si the manhjal of AHlul Sunnah. ANything that goes against it is wrong and contradictory to teachings of Quran and Sunnah. Sufis are misguided people. Mostly deobands and brelvi sunnis belongs to this category. They have many beleifs which are similar to ghullat of past. Following narrations are enough to refute all such false claims.

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "A good dream (that comes true) of a  righteous man is one of forty-six parts of prophetism." Sahih al-Bukhari 6983


Abu Hurrairah narrated that the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w) said:
"In the end of time, the dreams of a believer will hardly ever fail to  come true, and the most truthful of them in dreams will be the truest  in speech among them. And dreams are three types: The good dreams  wihich is glad tidings from Allah, dreams about something that has  happened to the man himself, and dreams in which the Shaitan frightens  someone. So when one of you sees what he dislikes, then he should get  up and perform Salat." Abu Hurairah said: "I like fetters and  dislikes, the iron collar. And fetters refers to being firm in the  religion." He said: "The Prophet (s. a. w) said: 'Dreams are a portion  among the forty_six portions of Prophethood." Trimidhi Book 34, Hadith  2460


Ibn ‘Abbas said:
The Prophet(ﷺ) lifted the curtain (and saw that) the people were  standing in rows(of prayers) behind Abu Bakr. He said: O people, there remained nothing that gives good tidings from prophethood except a  true dream which a Muslim has himself or which another Muslim has for  him. I have been prohibited to recite the Qur’an while bowing or  prostration. As regards owing, exalt the Lord in it, and as to  prostration, make supplication with exertion in it, that is worthy of  being accepted. Sunan Abi Dawud 876

Only true dreams. Which is one of 46th part of prophet hood. Just imagine. How much there is a difference between a prophet and a non prophet, after the finality of prophet hood. Moreover, not every dream is true. They can also be wrong. Dreams of past saints and sufis are not verifiable. Some of them may be true but most of them are simply super natural type and fairy tales. Today in modern era dreams are verifibale, we have media and other resourses to verify karamat etc. But sadly, today no any sufi is claiming and doing karamat. They know today they will be easily exposed. The only way for a belieevr to do any karamat is via prayer/supplication. Again not every prayer is accpeted by Allah swt.

Before the closing of door of prophet hood, many peoples in previous ummah used to recieve revelations and talk to angels etc. But with the end of prophet hood now this is not possible.

"O people, there remained nothing that gives good tidings from prophethood except a  true dream"

In the Quran, non-prophets have received wahi (the mother of Musa), spoken to angels (Maryam), performed miracles (the Sleepers of the Cave), were appointed to leadership (Talut and Dhul Qarnayn), and were given wisdom (Luqman) etc proves that they got this. It does not prove that Imams or other saints are also able to achieve the same. This is the meaning of finality of prophet hood that this door is now closed for forever except true dreams.

Coming of Mahdi a.s is a news just like coming of Dajjal and like hadith of twelve caliphs etc. Its a prophecy which will be fulfilled before the end of time. He will not force anyone to beleive in him as Imam. When his time will come, he will also be selected by people as their caliph just like muhajirun and ansaar selected Imam Ali a.s. Read letter 6 of nahjul balagha. As per prophetic narrations from ahlul sunnah hadith books. Imam Mahdi a.s will esbalish his caliphate all over the world and there will justice everywhere like never before. He will rule for some years. Then he will die and his funeral prayer will be performed by Prophet Issa a.s. And then Issa a.s will become the caliph for sometime. And then Allah knows what will happen.

 

 

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On 1/31/2017 at 2:02 PM, Fahad Sani said:

Can you please share some ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w on finality of prophet hood from shia sources if possible?

 

Why do you ask for narrations after you make the claim?

Surely you should look into the evidence before making accusations?

Anyway, here is just a sample

 

H 239, Ch. 6, h8 Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn al-Walid from ibn abu Nasr from abu al-Hassan al-Muwsali who has narrated the following from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant,:  “Once a rabbi, hibr, came to Imam Ali, recipient of divine supreme covenant, and asked, ‘O Amir al-Mu’minin, when did your Lord come into existence?’ Imam Ali, recipient of divine supreme covenant, replied, ‘Consider carefully. The question when applies to one who did not exist (and then came into being). When does not apply to the One Who is eternal. He was before the before without before and after the after without an after. He is not the end of a certain end so that His end would also end.’ He then asked, ‘Are you a prophet?’ Imam Ali, recipient of divine supreme covenant, replied, ‘Bereft of you be your mother! I am a slave among the slaves of the Messenger of Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant.’” 
 
H 1223, Ch. 113, h 1 Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Muhammad ibn Yahya al-Farisiy from abu Hanifa Muhammad ibn Yahya from al-Walid ibn Aban from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah ibn Muskan from his father who has said the following: “Abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has said, ‘Once Fatimah, daughter of Asad, came to abu Talib with the glad news of the birth of the Holy Prophet, recipient of divine supreme covenant.  Abu Talib said, ‘Wait for a sabt, then I will give you similar glad news, except prophet-hood (the new born will not be a prophet).’ “The Imam has said, ‘A sabt is thirty years. Amir al-Mu’minin Ali, recipient of divine supreme covenant, was born thirty years after the birth of the Messenger of Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant. ’” 

 

H 679, Ch. 49, h2 Ali has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from ibn ‘Udhayna from  Zurarah from abu Ja‘far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following: “Once, Jibril brought from Paradise two pieces of pomegranate to the Messenger of Allah. The Messenger of Allah ate one of them and broke the other one into two pieces. He then ate one half and gave the other half to Ali, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who also ate it. The Messenger of Allah said, ‘O Ali, the first one that I ate was prophet-hood. There is no share in it for you. The other one is knowledge in which you are my partner.’”  
 

H 697, Ch. 53, h 2 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from al-Husayn ibn abu al-‘Ala’ from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following: “One must refer to us (as the Divine Authorities) to find the the rules of lawful and unlawful matters but considering us as having prophet-hood is not valid.” 

 

H 698, Ch. 53, h 3 Muhammad ibn Yahya al-Ash’ari has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Barqi from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya ibn ‘Imran al-Halabi from Ayyub ibn al-Hurr who has said the following:  “I heard abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, say, ‘Allah, Majestic is Whose name, ended with your prophet the (coming of) the prophets. Thus, there will never come any prophet after him. With your book He ended sending of (heavenly) books. Thus, there will never come other heavenly books. In it (your book) He has placed clarifications for all things, such as your creation and the creation of the heavens and the earth. Therein is the news of the beings before you, the laws that help settle your disputes and the news of the beings that will come into being after you, the news of the issues of paradise and fire and that to which you proceed.’” 

 

H 701, Ch. 53, h 6 Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Barqi from abu Talib from Sadir who has said the following: “Once I asked abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, ‘A certain group of people believes that you ('A'immah) are gods. They read to us from the the Holy Quran about it such as, “And it is He Who in heaven is the Lord and on earth is the Lord.” (43:84) The Imam said, ‘O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair all disdain such people, and Allah also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my ancestors. I swear by Allah, Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Resurrection. The only thing from Allah to them will be His anger.’ I (the narrator) then said, ‘Among us there is a group of people who believe that you are messengers and they read to us from the Holy Quran: “O messengers, eat of the good things and do righteousness; surely I know the things you do.”’ (23:51) “The Imam said, ‘O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair all disdain such people, and Allah and His Messenger also disdain them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my ancestors. By Allah, Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Judgment. The only thing from Allah toward them will be His anger.’ “I (the narrator) then asked, ‘What are you then?’ The Imam said, ‘We are the treasuries of the knowledge of Allah. We are the translators of the commands of Allah. We are infallible people. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has commanded people to obey us and prohibited them from disobeying us. We are well advocated Divine Authority over all that is below the heavens and above the earth.’”  
 


 H 700, Ch. 53, h 5  Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from ibn  ’Udhayna from Burayd ibn Mu‘awiya who has said the following: “Once I asked abu Ja‘far and abu ‘Abd Allah, recipients of divine supreme covenant, ‘What is your position? Whom of the people of the past do you resemble?’ The Imam said, ‘I resemble the companion of Moses and Dhul Qarnayn who were two scholars but not two prophets.’

 

H 699, Ch. 53, h 4 A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from Hammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Husayn ibn al-Mukhtar from al-Harith ibn al-Mughirah who has said the following:  “Abu Ja‘far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has said, ‘Ali, recipient of divine supreme covenant, was a Muhaddath ( a person to whom angels spoke).’ I (the narrator) then asked the Imam, ‘What does it mean, O Imam? Do you say he was a prophet?’ The narrator has said that the Imam raised his hand like this (meaning thereby, no, I did not say that). The Imam then said, ‘Or he is like the companion of Solomon, or the companion of Moses or like Dhul Qarnayn. Have you not heard that he (the Holy Prophet) said, “Among you is one similar to him (Dhul Qarnayn).”’ 
 

 
 
 

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Some more evidences.

 

On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:

For the last time, it must be made clear, that the Imams A.S do not receive any kind of revelation, they may be divinely inspired (protected by Allah SWT and appointed by Him) but they do not receive any kind of new revelation. Our hadiths are clear on the matter, the Imams A.S has inherited the religious authority and knowledge from Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.

Al-Islam.org says.

https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-leadership-sayyid-mujtaba-musavi-lari/lesson-21-sources-imams-knowledge

https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-leadership-sayyid-mujtaba-musavi-lari/lesson-23-imams-communication-world-unseen

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/imamat-versus-prophethood-part-1

The Shi’a believe that the rank of Imamat (the position of a divinely- appointed leader) is higher than that of prophethood and messengership.

The exceedingly precise and profound knowledge possessed by the Imams is derived from their communication with the world of the unseen and from inspiration (ilham).

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, peace be upon him, said:

"The Prophet Dawud inherited the knowledge of the preceding prophets, and he then bequeathed it to Sulayman. From Sulayman it was transmitted to the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, and we in turn have inherited it from him."

Abu Basir who was present then saw fit to remark: "There are all kinds of knowledge!" The Imam responded! "The knowledge you have in mind is not particularly valuable. The knowledge of which I speak is truly precious; it is inspired in us night and day, from one hour to the next."

The seventh Imam, Musa b. Ja'far, peace be upon him, said:

"Our knowledge is of three kinds: relating to the past; relating to the future; and relating to newly emergent situations. Knowledge relating to the past is interpreted for us; knowledge relating to the future is written down for us; and knowledge relating to newly emergent situations is infused in our hearts and our ears. This last category is the most noble part of our knowledge. However, no prophet will come after the Most Noble Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him and his family "
 

On another occasion Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq also said:

"Whenever the Imam wishes to be informed of something, God informs him of it."

Imam al-Baqir, peace be upon him, said: "Once the Commander of the Faithful, 'Ali, peace be upon him, was asked about the extent of the Prophet's knowledge. He replied: 'He had the knowledge of all the preceding prophets; he knew all of the past and all of the future. I swear by God Who holds my soul in His hand that I know all that the Prophet knew, and that I know all of the past and all of the future, up until the Day of Resurrection."

 

@iraqi_shia

@The Straight Path


Imams possess all sources of knowledge and are inspired day and night and are even superior to all prophets except Last Prophet s.a.w.w.  This is how Imams are not prophets. Then what is meant by finality of prophet hood. Surely nothing except the name change.

Brother, I am not accusing you. But this is official shia concept of imamah today. Explore above links. You will find many shocking narrations.

 

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Some clarification on concept of muhadath from ahlul sunnah.

 

On 1/31/2017 at 6:31 AM, The Straight Path said:

Imām al-Bukhārī (Sahih, Kitab Fadhail as-Sahaba, hadith #3486) records:
 

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لقد كان فيما قبلكم من الأمم محدثون فإن يك في أمتي أحد فإنه عمر

 
The Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, said: 
 
Verily, among the past Ummahs were muhadathūn. If there is any of them in my Ummah, it is ‘Umar.

Imam Ibn al-Qayyim ÑÖí Çááøå ÚÜäÜå defines Muhadath in the first volume of his book: “Madaarij al-Saalikeen Bayn Manaazil Iyaaka Na`budu wa Iyaaka Nasta`een”

The Prophet (saw) said: “In the nations before you were Muhaddathoun, IF there was to be one in this nation it would be `Umar.”

Notice, the Prophet (saw) uses the word “IF”, meaning it is not established that such a rank exists today, but we know that it existed in past nations, this is similar to the narration that says: “If there was a prophet after me, then it would be `Umar.” This does not prove that there were prophets after Sayyiduna Muhammad (saw).

Ibn al-Qayyim says: I heard Shaykh al-Islam Taqi-ul-Deen Ibn Tayymiyah affirm that they were in previous nations, as for their presence in this nation, it is tied with the conditional “IF”. Although, it is the best of nations because previous nations needed their presence whereas ours does not because of the excellence of our Prophet (saw) and the perfection of his message, so Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì did not make us rely on a Muhaddath or a Mulham or Sahib Kashf or a dream ect

The Muhaddath is he who gets spoken to within himself, in his heart, and the matter happens just as he was told it would.

As for what many of the people of ignorance and imaginations say: “My heart spoke to me from my Lord.”

It is true, his heart did speak to him, but from who? was it from himself? was it from Allah? or was it from Shaytan?

So if he says that his Lord spoke to his heart, then he attributed this to someone without being sure, and this is a form of lying!

The Shaykh said: The Muhaddath of this nation (`Umar bin al-Khattab) would never say such a thing, Allah saved him from uttering such words. On the contrary, once the writer of `Umar bin al-Khattab (ra) wrote: “This is what Allah made Ameer al-Mu’mineen `Umar see concerning such and such” So `Umar (ra) told his writer: “No! Erase it! Write down: This is what `Umar saw, if it is correct then it is from Allah, and if it is incorrect then it is from `Umar, Allah and his messenger are free from it.”
In another Fiqhi issue `Umar ibn al-Khattab (ra) said: “I rule in this matter based on my opinion, if it turns out to be correct then it is from Allah, and if I turn out to be wrong then it is from me and from Shaytan.”

This is the man whom the messenger (saw) described as Muhaddath, not the ones of our days who openly declare that Allah spoke to them and informed their hearts and they judge based on this! So observe the two and judge for yourself.(Madaarij al-Saalikeen Bayn Manaazil Iyaaka Na`budu wa Iyaaka Nasta`een).

 

Now compare this to shia concept of muhadath (inspiration). Both are completely opposite.

https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-leadership-sayyid-mujtaba-musavi-lari/lesson-21-sources-imams-knowledge

About the author of above links.

Sayyid Mujtaba Musavi Lari is the son of the late Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Asghar Lari, one of the great religious scholars and social personalities of Iran. His grandfather was the late Ayatullah Hajj Sayyid Abd ul-Husayn Lari, who fought for freedom in the Constitutional Revolution.

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13 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

This is now childish.

Brother - to me this entire thread is childish. We are saying that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the last and final Prophet. You are insisting that this is not our belief. Its really ridiculous.

13 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Ghuluw is on those things which are not verifiable as per Quran and Sunnah. Or which conradicts with Quran and Sunnah.

Not some qualities brother. As per shia narrations they are same except the chnage of title. If not then plz list the differences between the two stations. Its about about Quran but about revelations in general. Which is a major sign for someone's being a prophet.

Truth is that, Imams never recieved any sort of revelation or glad tidings except via true dreams.

That Imams dont know unseen except what is reported in Quran and by Prophet s.a.w.w. Which every one know.

That Imams do not have wilayat takwiniyah. They do not possess power to do miracles etc.

That they were not immune from doing mistakes.

That they got all of their knowledge from Quran and Sunnah and their rank/status via obedience to Quran and Sunnah.

ANd opposed of all this and other similar qualities/attributes is nothing but ghuluw.

So let's recap:

Truth is that, Imams never recieved any sort of revelation or glad tidings except via true dreams.
Didnt Hz Maryam receive Jibrael in her dream? Didnt Hz Ibrahim (as) receive Jibrael in his dream to sacrifice Hz Ismael? So Imams received revelation in true dreams according to you. Is your only contention about their sleep status? You can't prove from the Quran that is couldnt happen nor can you say this contradicts the Quran or Sunnah.

 

That Imams dont know unseen except what is reported in Quran and by Prophet s.a.w.w. Which every one know.
Well known that the Prophet (saw) taught Imam Ali everything he knew and Imam Ali (as) to Imam Hassan (as) and so on. Perhaps you need to clearly define what unseen is but I will say the Imams knew as much as the Prophet (saw) taught them.


That Imams do not have wilayat takwiniyah. They do not possess power to do miracles etc.
Verify this from the Quran or show how this contradicts the Quran and Sunnah.

 

That they were not immune from doing mistakes.
Could they make mistakes? Yes
Did they make mistakes? No. Unless you have proof?


That they got all of their knowledge from Quran and Sunnah and their rank/status via obedience to Quran and Sunnah.
I will even take a step further and say they learned the Quran from the Prophet (saw). What does this prove or not prove?

 

ANd opposed of all this and other similar qualities/attributes is nothing but ghuluw.
You haven't proven any ghuluw.

 

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On 2/2/2017 at 1:36 PM, shiaman14 said:

Brother - to me this entire thread is childish. We are saying that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the last and final Prophet. You are insisting that this is not our belief. Its really ridiculous.

No. I never said shias dont believe in finality of prophet hood. But I said their concept of Imamah is no different than Nabuwah. Imams possess all qualities and features which were part of Nabuwah. Both these stations only differ in name. That's why Imamah is nothing but a continuation of Prophet hood. Explore following work of Sayyid Mujtaba Musavi Lari is the son of the late Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Asghar Lari. You will hardly find any difference between Imamah and Nabuwah. In fact you will find that Imamah is superior to all prophets except the Last Messenger s.a.w.w.

https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-leadership-sayyid-mujtaba-musavi-lari

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On 2/2/2017 at 1:36 PM, shiaman14 said:

Truth is that, Imams never recieved any sort of revelation or glad tidings except via true dreams.
Didnt Hz Maryam receive Jibrael in her dream? Didnt Hz Ibrahim (as) receive Jibrael in his dream to sacrifice Hz Ismael? So Imams received revelation in true dreams according to you. Is your only contention about their sleep status? You can't prove from the Quran that is couldnt happen nor can you say this contradicts the Quran or Sunnah.

Brother, do you know that this same argument was also used by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani (l.a) when he claimed prophet hood. Exactly same argument. Before the end of prophet hood it was possible. But after the end now every such door is also closed. Thats the meaning of end of prophet hood. Moreover, Ibrahim a.s, Ismail a.s, Yusuf a.s etc they all were prophets (dream of prophet is also revelation) and Maryam s.a and Umm Musa s.a both were special cases and both were mothers of prophets. I have shown many narrations in several threads which prove all this. Shaikh Sadooq r.a and other classic scholars had also considered many such aspects part of ghuluw.

On 2/2/2017 at 1:36 PM, shiaman14 said:

That Imams dont know unseen except what is reported in Quran and by Prophet s.a.w.w. Which every one know.
Well known that the Prophet (saw) taught Imam Ali everything he knew and Imam Ali (as) to Imam Hassan (as) and so on. Perhaps you need to clearly define what unseen is but I will say the Imams knew as much as the Prophet (saw) taught them.

No true. This is also considered as ghuluw by Shaikh Sadooq r.a and others scholars of his time. Imams and everyone else know unseen only which is reported in authentic ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w.

On 2/2/2017 at 1:36 PM, shiaman14 said:

That Imams do not have wilayat takwiniyah. They do not possess power to do miracles etc.
Verify this from the Quran or show how this contradicts the Quran and Sunnah.

This is also ghuluw as per shaikh Sadooq r.a and others. He shown many evidences on this. If they really had powers then why they did not saved their lives and instead practiced taqqiyah. There is a big difference between theory and practical.

On 2/2/2017 at 1:36 PM, shiaman14 said:

That they were not immune from doing mistakes.
Could they make mistakes? Yes
Did they make mistakes? No. Unless you have proof?

Yes they also made mistakes. Read Shaikh Toosi's work Tehzeeb and Istibsar. I am talking about mistakes, not about sins. Quran also mention mistakes of almost every prophet.

On 2/2/2017 at 1:36 PM, shiaman14 said:

That they got all of their knowledge from Quran and Sunnah and their rank/status via obedience to Quran and Sunnah.
I will even take a step further and say they learned the Quran from the Prophet (saw). What does this prove or not prove?

No. Only Imam Ali a.s learned Quran from Prophet s.a.w.w. Others learned from their fathers plus some other sahabah. There are narrations which prove this.

On 2/2/2017 at 1:36 PM, shiaman14 said:

ANd opposed of all this and other similar qualities/attributes is nothing but ghuluw.
You haven't proven any ghuluw.

I dont have much time now a days. I have spent alot of time on this forum. You can use search function . Specially threads of brother Hayder Hussain. You will find many evidences there for all your questions. Also in books of Shaikh Sadooq like Uyun Akhbar Reza. Or you can also use some very good anti-shia websites. They are full of such references from top most shia books along with testimonies of well known shia scholars.

Best of Luck.

Some forms of ghuluw are here.

 

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21 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Imams possess all sources of knowledge and are inspired day and night and are even superior to all prophets except Last Prophet s.a.w.w.  This is how Imams are not prophets. Then what is meant by finality of prophet hood. Surely nothing except the name change.

Brother, I am not accusing you. But this is official shia concept of imamah today. Explore above links. You will find many shocking narrations.

There is no new message or law, thats how. 

You would be best to read Qa'im's brilliant response at the top of the page, there is really no need for any further discussion.

 

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9 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

No. I never said shias dont believe in finality of prophet hood. But I said their concept of Imamah is no different than Nabuwah. Imams possess all qualities and features which were part of Nabuwah. Both these stations only differ in name. That's why Imamah is nothing but a continuation of Prophet hood. Explore following work of Sayyid Mujtaba Musavi Lari is the son of the late Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Asghar Lari. You will hardly find any difference between Imamah and Nabuwah. In fact you will find that Imamah is superior to all prophets except the Last Messenger s.a.w.w.

https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-leadership-sayyid-mujtaba-musavi-lari

I told you that too (bold).

So how different do Nabuwah and Imamah have to be for you to consider them to be different? Its like you are arguing that men and women are the same because they are humans. One can deliver babies the other can't. An Imam interprets and protects scripture, Nabuwah receives it too. Big difference.

9 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Brother, do you know that this same argument was also used by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani (l.a) when he claimed prophet hood. Exactly same argument. Before the end of prophet hood it was possible. But after the end now every such door is also closed. Thats the meaning of end of prophet hood. Moreover, Ibrahim a.s, Ismail a.s, Yusuf a.s etc they all were prophets (dream of prophet is also revelation) and Maryam s.a and Umm Musa s.a both were special cases and both were mothers of prophets. I have shown many narrations in several threads which prove all this. Shaikh Sadooq r.a and other classic scholars had also considered many such aspects part of ghuluw.

Lol. There we go again. I am saying the Prophet was the last and final prophet. Mirza Qadiyani was claiming prophethood. BIG DIFFERENCE.

You have written a lot but you haven't proven anything. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

No true. This is also considered as ghuluw by Shaikh Sadooq r.a and others scholars of his time. Imams and everyone else know unseen only which is reported in authentic ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w.

Isn't that what I said. The Prophet taught Imam Ali everything he knew and if the Prophet knew unseen, then so did the Imam. It would be faulty teaching and faulty learning if that was not true.

Moreover, you haven't even defined unseen to be able to argue who knew what. 

 

9 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

This is also ghuluw as per shaikh Sadooq r.a and others. He shown many evidences on this. If they really had powers then why they did not saved their lives and instead practiced taqqiyah. There is a big difference between theory and practical.

What a ridiculous statement to make. Taqiyah of the Imams was to protect the followers not themselves. Simple proof is the fact they were all murdered.
Khaybar Door????

9 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Yes they also made mistakes. Read Shaikh Toosi's work Tehzeeb and Istibsar. I am talking about mistakes, not about sins. Quran also mention mistakes of almost every prophet.

Can you please list a couple of mistakes?

9 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

No. Only Imam Ali a.s learned Quran from Prophet s.a.w.w. Others learned from their fathers plus some other sahabah. There are narrations which prove this.

Yes, that is what I meant. Prophet --> Imam Ali --> Imam Hassan, etc. meaning they learned from the Prophet (directly or indirectly).

 

9 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

I dont have much time now a days. I have spent alot of time on this forum. You can use search function . Specially threads of brother Hayder Hussain. You will find many evidences there for all your questions. Also in books of Shaikh Sadooq like Uyun Akhbar Reza. Or you can also use some very good anti-shia websites. They are full of such references from top most shia books along with testimonies of well known shia scholars.

I could have sworn that you have a lot of time based on the length and volume of your posts but ok.

Anti-shia websites like Anti-Majoos?

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:bismillah:

https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-leadership-sayyid-mujtaba-musavi-lari/lesson-23-imams-communication-world-unseen

In the same article from Al-Islam.org, we find:

 

The inspiration that comes to the Imams initiating them into certain hidden concerns, is different from revelation, because the one who receives inspiration does not see the angel of revelation. However, the truths that are bestowed on the Imams help them greatly in expanding the scope of their vision and augmenting their cognitive abilities.

It needs to be added, of course, that the communication of the Imams with the world of the unseen is not unbounded, resulting in a complete awareness of all things unseen, or independent of God's infinite power; their relationship is with a specific zone or region of the unseen within boundaries set by God Himself. Given the inherent limitation of their knowledge and their dependence for it on divine power, they cannot attain that which is absolutely unknowable to all except God. 

However, since each of the Imams is the most perfect man of his age, thanks to his rank and luminosity, and a complete manifestation of the divine names and attributes, the Creator of the World, the Knower of the Unseen and the Manifest, discloses to them certain matters relating to the unseen, thereby broadening and deepening their vision and opening an aperture onto what otherwise remains hidden.

It is not possible for them to enter into contact with the world of the unseen independently, as is apparent from the traditions in which the Imams deny they have knowledge of the unseen; what is meant is that hey have no complete or absolute access to the unseen and Cannot gain any knowledge of it without God's will and permission.

In addition, the Imams received certain knowledge concerning the unseen that had been vouchsafed to the Most Noble Messenger peace and blessings be upon him and his family.

 

One of the companions of Imam al-Baqir, peace be upon him, asked him about the meaning of the verse: 

"None knows God's unseen realm except those whom He chooses from among His messengers." (72:26)

He replied: "I swear by God that Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, was one of those whom God desired to acquaint with the knowledge of the unseen. If God designated Himself as 'Knower of the Unseen,' this is because knowledge of certain matters is restricted to Him and hidden from His servants: things He predetermines in His knowledge before creating them and informing the angels of them, and which He then exercises His will to create or not to create. As for the knowledge of that which He both predetermines and wills to create, this is the knowledge that was conveyed to the Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, and then to us."

 

This does not mean that the Imams made regular use of some inner force in order to make contact with the world of the unseen in the course of their daily lives to obtain supernatural support. For it is a fundamental principle that the Prophet and the Imams should not exhibit any fundamental difference from other human beings in their mode of life; ill taking decisions, they relied on their own judgement of matters as they appeared to be, and often consulted their companions.

 

One of the companions of Imam al-Baqir, peace be upon him, relates that someone from Fars once asked the Imam whether he had knowledge of the unseen. He answered: "Sometimes knowledge of the unseen is granted to us, and sometimes it is not. God entrused some of His mysteries to Jibril, and he conveyed them to Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, who in turn informed of them whomsoever he wished."

 

My point is, you have to see how certain narrations are interpreted, even though they may seem to suggest that the Imams A.S got "knowledge of everything" and other things (like those you shared from the article), you need to read what the scholars says in this regard. 

Even though I personally may disagree with certain things regarding this topic, it would be unfair to simply make allegations, because I'm very sure that a lot of scholars wouldn't ascribe something to the Imams A.S knowingly, scholars do mistakes and are fallible. Anyway this scholar as shown above does not believe that the Imams A.S could just simply get any kind of knowledge of the unseen like superpowers or something like that. 

 

Some other beautiful narrations from the same article:

 

One of the companions of Imam Musa b. Ja'far, peace be upon him, asked him:

"Is all that you say to be found in the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet, or do you also speak on your own authority?"

He replied: "It is impossible that we should say anything on our authority. Whatever we say is to be found in the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet."

 

Imam al-Baqir, peace be upon him, told Jabir:

"If we were to narrate traditions based on our own views, we would surely perish. Know that we narrate only traditions that we have stored up from the Messenger of God just as people store up silver and gold."

 

Wsalam

 

 

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