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Your thoughts on this?

Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush, an Iranian scholar, a government official directly appointed by Khomeini, talking about Evolution of shiaism and finality of Prophet hood.

Biography of author is HERE

 

 

This is full lecture. Short clip part starts from 36 min. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_9cM6yEm_U

 

Edited by Fahad Sani

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@Fahad Sani

So, what is wrong in it ? If Shias say that Imams are infallible like Prophets and they tell what Prophet tells then what is wrong in it ?

Prophet PBUHHP says: "I am leaving behind you two things and if you hold fast on these you will never go astray that are: Quran and My Ahle bait". It is also found in your hadith sources as well.

Secondly, for infallibility read in Quran in which Allah (SWT) reveals to purify the house of Prophet PBUHHP and has done it what he wanted. So, their infallibility is proven. 33:33

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If he was a good person and now has went away from it then what difference does it make ?

People were bestowed with hedyah and abandoned it later on. So, it is not a thing of concern for the believers. 

Edited by Sindbad05

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Secondly, he did not mentioned in which book sheikh mufeed said that they are prophets ?

Finally, I will say that Imamate is a position which is proven by Quran that it is an extraordinary position and that is proven in the Quranic verse which says that Ibrahim a.s was rewarded with Imamah after he passed his trial. Is not it true ?

So, it defines that Imamah has great importance. 

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16 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

@Fahad Sani

So, what is wrong in it ? If Shias say that Imams are infallible like Prophets and they tell what Prophet tells then what is wrong in it ?

Prophet PBUHHP says: "I am leaving behind you two things and if you hold fast on these you will never go astray that are: Quran and My Ahle bait". It is also found in your hadith sources as well.

Secondly, for infallibility read in Quran in which Allah (SWT) reveals to purify the house of Prophet PBUHHP and has done it what he wanted. So, their infallibility is proven. 33:33

Its not only about isma.

Speaker in the video is saying shias believe in finality of prophet hood verbally but in reality they consider their Imams exactly like prophets (no difference between the two except the title). To support this claim he quoted Shaikh Mufeed.

 

16 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Secondly, he did not mentioned in which book sheikh mufeed said that they are prophets ?

Finally, I will say that Imamate is a position which is proven by Quran that it is an extraordinary position and that is proven in the Quranic verse which says that Ibrahim a.s was rewarded with Imamah after he passed his trial. Is not it true ?

So, it defines that Imamah has great importance. 

وائل المقالات – الشيخ المفيد ص 45:
 القول في الفرق بين الرسل والأنبياء عليهم السلام
واتفقت الإمامية على أن كل رسول فهو نبي وليس كل نبي فهو رسول، وقد كان من أنبياء الله عز وجل حفظة لشرائع الرسل وخلفائهم في المقام، وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.

The difference between the Prophets and the Messengers (as):

The Imami (Shia) have consensus that every messenger is a prophet but not every prophet is a messenger, from the prophets of Allah are those who preserve/protect the religious laws passed down by the messengers, they are their successors in this matter. The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they (Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them. (Shaikh Mufeed: Awail al–Maqaalat, page 45).

Actually speaker in the video is addressing major flaws in shia beliefs, Imamah being the major one. As it is creating serious doubts on shia belief on finality of prophet hood. As it seems no difference between the two stations (nabuwah and imamah) except the title.

 

Edited by Fahad Sani

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15 hours ago, Ozzy said:

This is an old discussion. Ultimately one can conclude that neither the Sunni nor the Shia really know what the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله said. Hence, to best find out what he said the Shia take the Imams as the spokesmen for his message, while the Sunnis call their spokesmen Imams (e.g. Malik, Ahmad, Bukhari, Muslim et al). The very essence of an Imam is that one takes them to be their guide in the absence of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله. It is even mentioned in some sunni hadith circles "When you recite Bukhari, think of it as if the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله himself is speaking to you."

Yes brother the matter is full of confusions. But unlike sunnis, twelver shia believe that Imams are divinely appointed and possess all qualities of prophets except they are not prophets.

 

14 hours ago, Ozzy said:

خاتمة المستدرك: عن ابي العباس البقباق، قال: تذاكر ابن أبي يعفور ومعلى ابن خنيس، فقال ابن أبي يعفور: الاوصياء علماء ابرار اتقياء، وقال معلى بن خنيس: الاوصياء انبياء، قال: فدخلا على أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام)، قال: فلما استقر مجلسهما، قال: فبدأهما أبو عبد الله (عليه السلام)، فقال: يا عبد الله ابرأ ممن قال انا انبياء

ِAbul Abbas al-Baqbaa narrates that Ibn Abi Yafour and Mualla ibn Khunaid were having a discussion; Ibn Abi Yafour said the successors are pious and righteous scholars while Mulaasaid they were prophets. So they visited Imam Jafar, and when they were seated the Imam began by saying 'Abdullah, I have nothing to do with anyone who says we are prophets."
~ Khatimatul Mustadrak

Do Shaikh Mufeed fall in this category? Because indirectly he is calling them prophets. Same statement which Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush had quoted in lecture.

13 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

The Imami (Shia) have consensus that every messenger is a prophet but not every prophet is a messenger, from the prophets of Allah are those who preserve/protect the religious laws passed down by the messengers, they are their successors in this matter. The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they (Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them. (Shaikh Mufeed: Awail al–Maqaalat, page 45).

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15 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Ultimately one can conclude that neither the Sunni nor the Shia really know what the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله said.

Wrong brother. Sunnis have much more ahadith which goes back directly to Prophet s.a.w.w. And this number is around 10 thousand. While shias have not more than 1 thousand ahadith from prophet s.a.w.w whose isnad goes back to him s.a.w.w. Moreover many shia ahdith are based on taqqiyah, one more drawback.

Can you please share some ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w on finality of prophet hood from shia sources if possible?

Jazak Allah.

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4 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Your thoughts on this?

Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush, an Iranian scholar, a government official directly appointed by Khomeini, talking about Evolution of shiaism and finality of Prophet hood.

Biography of author is HERE

 

 

This is full lecture. Short clip part starts from 36 min. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_9cM6yEm_U

 

:bismillah:

(A). DR. ABDOL KARIM SOROUSH
 
Khorasānī commences bringing the “proofs” in this manner:
 
Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush, an Iranian scholar, was a government official directly appointed by Khomeini. Click this link to see his biography. This Iranian thinker and scholar, acknowledges that the Shias are the Deniers of the finality of Prophethood.
 
Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush?! Assuming that Dr. Soroush indeed rejects belief in the finality of prophethood or actually attributes the kufr to the Imāmiyyah, how does that prove anything about Imāmī Shī’ism? He is only an Iranian philosopher, and an ex-officer of the Iranian regime in the early days of the Islāmic Revolution. He has had NO Shī’ah religious training at all! He only studied Pharmacy (Iran), then Analytical Chemistry (London) for his Masters degree, and then Philosophy of Science (London) for his PhD degree! He in fact is now anti-marja’, and has been declared an apostate by Āyatullāh Sayyid ‘Alī Khamenei, may Allāh protect him! The fact that Imām al-Khomeinī, may Allāh be pleased with him, appointed him to be an officer of the Iranian government gives absolutely no religious weight to what he has become after the death of the Imām. Sadly for Khorasānī, Dr. Soroush, an Iranian philosopher with no clerical background whatsoever is his best “proof” against the Imāmiyyah!

 

 

36 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

Do Shaikh Mufeed fall in this category? Because indirectly he is calling them prophets. Same statement which Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush had quoted in lecture.

 

(B). SHAYKH AL-MUFĪD
 
Then, Khorasānī proceeds to his next “proof”:

Shiekh Al Mufid states:

 

أوائل المقالات – الشيخ المفيد ص 45:
8 – 
القول في الفرق بين الرسل والأنبياء عليهم السلام
واتفقت الإمامية على أن كل رسول فهو نبي وليس كل نبي فهو رسول، وقد كان من أنبياء الله عز وجل حفظة لشرائع الرسل وخلفائهم في المقام، وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.



8- The difference between the Prophets and the Messengers (as):

The Imami (Shia) have consensus that every messenger is a prophet but not every prophet is a messenger, from the prophets of Allah are those who preserve/protect the religious laws passed down by the messengers, they are their successors in this matter. The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they(Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them. (Awail al-Maqaalat, page 45)
 
First and foremost, Khorasānī’s translation is full of horrible distortions. We will gradually examine what he has quoted from Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, to expose his Nāsibī distortions. The title reads:
 

– القول في الفرق بين الرسل والأنبياء عليهم السلام

 
The Statement about the DIFFERENCE between messengers and prophets, peace be upon them.
 
One wonders why Khorasānī even doctored this apparently harmless heading!
 
This establishes Shaykh al-Mufīd’s aim: he wanted to examine the difference between messengers and prophets, peace be upon them all. Then, Shaykh al-Mufīd stated:
 

واتفقت الإمامية على أن كل رسول فهو نبي وليس كل نبي فهو رسول،

 
The Imāmiyyah are unanimous upon the fact that EVERY messenger is a prophet, but not every prophet is a messenger.
 
This is because not all prophets, peace be upon them, were sent with a new book or a new Sharī’ah. Those of them that were given a new scripture or law are the messengers. The rest of them only came to teach and implement the book or law given to the messengers among them. This is why Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, added:
 

وقد كان من أنبياء الله عز وجل حفظة لشرائع الرسل وخلفائهم في المقام،

 
Verily, among the prophets of Allāh, the Almighty, were those who were PRESERVERS of the Sharī’ahs of the messengers, and were their khalīfahs in the rank.
 
In other words, some prophets were given no book or Sharī’ah. Their only job was to teach the people about the books and Sharī’ahs of the past prophets, and to implement them if they could. Usually, a messenger came with a new book or a new Sharī’ah. When he died, prophets came after him to teach his book and implement his Sharī’ah. They were his Khalīfahs only in the teaching and implementation of the book and/or the Sharī’ah. Other than teaching and implementing the book or Sharī’ah of the previous messenger, these prophets did nothing more. They received no legislative wahy, and no scripture from Allāh, and no Sharī’ah!
 
We ask you, Khorasānī: is this not true? Is it not true that some, if not the majority of the prophets, were only like khalīfahs who only preserved the teachings and laws of a messenger? Is it not the same thing that Allāh has stated here:
 
Verily, We did send down the Tawrah (to Mūsā), therein was guidance and light, BY WHICH THE PROPHETS, WHO SUBMITTED THEMSELVES TO ALLĀH, AND THE RABBIS AND PRIESTS RULED AND JUDGED THE JEWS, FOR TO THEM WAS ENTRUSTED THE PRESERVATION OF ALLĀH’S BOOK, and they were witnesses to it.
Qur’ān 5:44
 
This blessed verse informs us that:
 
1. The Prophet Mūsā, peace be upon him, was sent by Allāh with the Tawrah, thereby proving that he was both a prophet and messenger.
2. After him, Allāh entrusted the preservation of the Tawrah to a succession of prophets, and after them to the rabbis and priests of Israel.
3. These prophets were given NO legislative wahy, or book or Sharī’ah. Rather, they performed the SAME function as the rabbis and priests of Israel.
4. The prophets, the rabbis and the priests were equal witnesses to the Tawrah.
5. Other than titles, there were no differences between the prophets, the rabbis and the priests in their preservation of the Tawrah.
 
Now, our esteemed readers can easily understand these words of Shaykh al-Mufīd:
 

وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.

 
The Sharī’ah has only forbidden the naming of our Imāms with prophethood, although logic allows this due to their attaining what THOSE OF THE PROPHETS WE MENTIONED attained.
 
Look at how Khorasānī has completely altered what Shaykh al-Mufīd said, to support his dishonest agenda:
 
The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they(Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them.
 
There is NO mention of “qualities” in the text. Moreover, the word “claiming” is NOT in the text. Lastly, Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, was only referring to SOME of the prophets whom he mentioned, while Khorasānī doctored his words to look as though he was referring to all prophets!!! Such is what they do!
 
It is our belief that our Imāms, peace be upon them all, are the preservers of the Qur’ān and the Sharī’ah of Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, after him. In this way, they are NOT different from the majority of the past prophets who were also only preservers of the book and Sharī’ah of a previous messenger. This was what Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, was emphasizing. If not that prophethood had ended, the Imāms, peace be upon them, too would have been declared prophets by Allāh, since they perform the exact functions of the many (if not the majority) of prophets.
 
In simple words, Khorasānī LIED upon Shaykh al-Mufīd and the Imāmiyyah with this “proof”.
 

Now, let us turn the table! Imām al-Bukhārī (Sahih, Kitab Fadhail as-Sahaba, hadith #3486) records:
 

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لقد كان فيما قبلكم من الأمم محدثون فإن يك في أمتي أحد فإنه عمر

 
The Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, said: 
 
Verily, among the past Ummahs were muhadathūn. If there is any of them in my Ummah, it is ‘Umar.
 
muhadath (plural, muhadathūn) is someone to whom angels, peace be upon them, speak. He may be a prophet and may not be. But, in terms of access to angels, and communication with them, there is no difference between a muhadath and a prophet. Sayyidah Maryam, peace be upon her, was one of the past muhadathūn. Allāh states:
 

وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَىٰ نِسَاءِ الْعَالَمِينَ

 
And (remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam! Verily, Allāh has chosen you, purified you, and chosen you above the women of the 'Ālamīn (mankind and jinn) (of her lifetime)."
Qur’ān 3:42

 

In the commentary of the above hadīth, Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalānī (Fath al-Bari, Kitab Fadhail as-Sahaba, hadith #3486) states:
 

وقوله : " وإن يك في أمتي " قيل : لم يورد هذا القول مورد الترديد فإن أمته أفضل الأمم ، وإذا ثبت أن ذلك وجد في غيرهم فإمكان وجوده فيهم أولى ، وإنما أورده مورد التأكيد ... وتمحضت الحكمة في وجودهم وكثرتهم بعد العصر الأول في زيادة شرف هذه الأمة بوجود أمثالهم فيه ، وقد تكون الحكمة في تكثيرهم مضاهاة بني إسرائيل في كثرة الأنبياء فيهم ، فلما فات هذه الأمة كثرة الأنبياء فيها لكون نبيها خاتم الأنبياء عوضوا بكثرة الملهمين . وقال الطيبي : المراد بالمحدث الملهم البالغ في ذلك مبلغ النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - في الصدق ، والمعنى لقد كان فيما قبلكم من الأمم أنبياء ملهمون ، فإن يك في أمتي أحد هذا شأنه فهو عمر

 
And his statement “and if there is any in my Ummah”, it is said: this statement is not a statement of rejection (i.e. of the possibility of muhadathūn in his Ummah) because his Ummah is the best of Ummahs. If it (the fact of the existence of muhadathūn) is established that this existed in other Ummahs, then its existence among them (i.e. his Ummah) is even more likely. The statement was only made for emphasis (on the fact that muhadathūn exist in his Ummah)… The wisdom in the specific fact that they (muhadathūn) exist, and in great numbers, after the first period is that it is an additional honour for this Ummah, through the existence of THE LIKE OF THEM in it. Indeed, there is wisdom in their proliferation, similar to the (case of) Banū Isrāīl among whom was proliferation of prophets. Due to that fact that this Ummah does not have plenty of prophets because its prophet is the Last of the Prophets, THOSE WHO RECEIVE DIVINE INSPIRATION are plenty in it. Al-Tayyibī said: “The meaning of al-Muhadath is a person who RECEIVES DIVINE INSPIRATION, WHO HAS REACHED THE LEVEL OF THE PROPHET, peace be upon him, IN TRUTHFULNESS. The meaning then is: There were DIVINELY INSPIRED PROPHETS among those before you, IF THERE WERE ANYONE WHO HAS REACHED THIS STATUS in my Ummah, it is ‘Umar.
 
So, does this not mean that Sunnīs do NOT believe in the finality of prophethood?

 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3223:refuting-khorasani-do-shias-believe-in-finality-of-prophethood&catid=205&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

"And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know [it]." [2:42]

 

Wsalam

 

Edited by The Straight Path

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34 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

Wrong brother. Sunnis have much more ahadith which goes back directly to Prophet s.a.w.w. And this number is around 10 thousand. While shias have not more than 1 thousand ahadith from prophet s.a.w.w whose isnad goes back to him s.a.w.w. Moreover many shia ahdith are based on taqqiyah, one more drawback.

Can you please share some ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w on finality of prophet hood from shia sources if possible?

Jazak Allah.

 

You know that there are many narrators in between Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and Bukhari apart from the Sahabas right? The English versions online only names one narrator "Umar narrates.." etc. but in the Arabic, there are much longer chains going all the way from Prophet Muhammad S.A.W to scholars like Bukhari and Muslim with many narrators in between. I suggest you read this blog post by brother @Qa'im:

You may have a lot of hadiths with Prophet's S.A.W name on it, but how can you be sure that all of them are truly authentic? 

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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

Yes brother the matter is full of confusions. But unlike sunnis, twelver shia believe that Imams are divinely appointed and possess all qualities of prophets except they are not prophets.

 

Do Shaikh Mufeed fall in this category? Because indirectly he is calling them prophets. Same statement which Dr. Abdol Karim Soroush had quoted in lecture.

The thing which Sheikh Mufeed has said is true as brother @The Straight Path has translated even according to Sunni Sources, because Prophet PBUHHP said: "O! Ali a.s you are to me as Haroon was to Mosa except that there is no prophet after me". 

Secondly, if you read the Quran, you will find the pious people with the status as that of Prophets but were not Prophets themselves such as Hazrat Taul a.s,  Hazrat Dhulqarnain a.s, Hazrat Luqman a.s, Hazrat Khidr a.s, Ashab e Kahaf. Only thirty prophets are mentioned in the prophets out of 124000, and many 123970 were left and Allah (SWT) choose pious person in place of them. 

Even you read that David was a Prophet who succeeded Tault a.s who was a pious men so what are you fighting for. 

Secondly, tell me that was Ibrahim's a.s status elevated when he was gifted with imamate or was lowered? if it was elevated then it means that Imamate is an special gift which Prophet Ibrahim a.s did not possessed before. So, how do you see it now ?

Edited by Sindbad05

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It's always fun when a Sunni tells us what our beliefs are.

When we correct you, you immediately play the 'taqiyah' card.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the last and final Prophet. It's not even a discussion item for shias.

The Imams are the Imams - they protect the message.

I think you are simply covering up the Sunni belief that "Prophet is like us" by mixing Nubuwah with Imamah.

This scholar says Prophethood and Imamah are mixed. Hz Aisha and a lot of Sunni scholars says adult women can breastfeed adult men.

Don't believe everything you read.

 

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14 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

Shiekh Al Mufid states:

 

أوائل المقالات – الشيخ المفيد ص 45:
8 – 
القول في الفرق بين الرسل والأنبياء عليهم السلام
واتفقت الإمامية على أن كل رسول فهو نبي وليس كل نبي فهو رسول، وقد كان من أنبياء الله عز وجل حفظة لشرائع الرسل وخلفائهم في المقام، وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.



8- The difference between the Prophets and the Messengers (as):

The Imami (Shia) have consensus that every messenger is a prophet but not every prophet is a messenger, from the prophets of Allah are those who preserve/protect the religious laws passed down by the messengers, they are their successors in this matter. The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they(Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them. (Awail al-Maqaalat, page 45)

Assalam o Alaikum borther,

Even if this translation is incorrect but still then the overall meaning of what shaikh Mufeed was trying to say is same. Moreover other scholars also had same belief.

Quote

Allamah Baqir Majlisi states:

ولا نعرف جهة لعدم اتصافهم بالنبوة إلا رعاية جلالة خاتم الانبياء ، ولا يصل عقولنا إلى فرق بين بين النبوة والامامة ، وما دلت عليه الاخبار فقد عرفته ، والله تعالى يعلم حقائق أحوالهم صلوات الله عليهم أجمعين
To our knowledge there is no reason not to describe the Imams as Prophets except consideration to the status of the Final Prophet. Our intellect too, cannot perceive a distinction between Nabuwwah (prophethood) and Imamah. (Source: Bihar Al-Anwar, Volume 26, p.82)

Allama Majlisi is also unable to differentiate between the two. Exactly same situation of Shaikh Mufeed.

Quote

Shia scholar Muhsin al-Kharazi says in “Bidayat al-Ma`arif al-Ilahiya” 1/11:

كما انه (أي الإمام) يتصف بصفات النبي أيضاً لكونه خليفة له، فان كان النبي معصوماً فهو أيضاً معصوم…. وهكذا فالإمام يقوم مقام النبي في جميع صفاته عدا كونه نبياً
[Also the Imam has the qualities of the prophet as well because he’s his successor, so if the prophet was infallible then he also is infallible (…) and thus the Imam takes the place of the prophet in all of his qualities except he isn’t a prophet.]

So, only change of title. Everything else is same.

 

14 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

Now, let us turn the table! Imām al-Bukhārī (Sahih, Kitab Fadhail as-Sahaba, hadith #3486) records:
 

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لقد كان فيما قبلكم من الأمم محدثون فإن يك في أمتي أحد فإنه عمر

 
The Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, said: 
 
Verily, among the past Ummahs were muhadathūn. If there is any of them in my Ummah, it is ‘Umar.
 
muhadath (plural, muhadathūn) is someone to whom angels, peace be upon them, speak. He may be a prophet and may not be. But, in terms of access to angels, and communication with them, there is no difference between a muhadath and a prophet. Sayyidah Maryam, peace be upon her, was one of the past muhadathūn. Allāh states:
 

وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَىٰ نِسَاءِ الْعَالَمِينَ

 
And (remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam! Verily, Allāh has chosen you, purified you, and chosen you above the women of the 'Ālamīn (mankind and jinn) (of her lifetime)."
Qur’ān 3:42

Brother, this hadith is same like hadith which say if there would be a prophet  after me then it would have been umar.

Both these ahadith are in negation. If it is true (for the sake of argument) then it means umar r.a was a muhadath. But history shows he never received any such wahi.

In previous ummah there used to be muhadath. But with the end of prophet hood, this door of revelation is also closed. Interpretation of Ibn Hajar is wrong because there are other mutawatur narrations which reject this possibility. Ahadith are authority, not the scholars, if they go against it.

Ibn ‘Abbas said:
The Prophet(ﷺ) lifted the curtain (and saw that) the people were  standing in rows(of prayers) behind Abu Bakr. He said: O people, there remained nothing that gives good tidings from prophethood except a  true dream which a Muslim has himself or which another Muslim has for  him. I have been prohibited to recite the Qur’an while bowing or  prostration. As regards owing, exalt the Lord in it, and as to  prostration, make supplication with exertion in it, that is worthy of  being accepted. Sunan Abi Dawud 876

This hadith is mutawatur. For more read page 192 here http://dlia.ir/kotob/arabic/531/beharo_al_anvar_054/index.html

 

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6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Assalam o Alaikum borther,

Even if this translation is incorrect but still then the overall meaning of what shaikh Mufeed was trying to say is same. Moreover other scholars also had same belief.

Allama Majlisi is also unable to differentiate between the two. Exactly same situation of Shaikh Mufeed.

So, only change of title. Everything else is same.

:bismillah:

No that's only your interpretation (as usual). 

Firstly, the quotation by Sheikh Al Mufid r.h is mentioned under the chapter called:

– القول في الفرق بين الرسل والأنبياء عليهم السلام

 
"The Statement about the DIFFERENCE between messengers and prophets, peace be upon them."
 

 

This establishes Shaykh al-Mufīd’s aim: he wanted to examine the difference between messengers and prophets, peace be upon them all. Then, Shaykh al-Mufīd stated:
 

واتفقت الإمامية على أن كل رسول فهو نبي وليس كل نبي فهو رسول،

 
The Imāmiyyah are unanimous upon the fact that EVERY messenger is a prophet, but not every prophet is a messenger.
 
This is because not all prophets, peace be upon them, were sent with a new book or a new Sharī’ah. Those of them that were given a new scripture or law are the messengers. The rest of them only came to teach and implement the book or law given to the messengers among them. This is why Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, added:
 

وقد كان من أنبياء الله عز وجل حفظة لشرائع الرسل وخلفائهم في المقام،

 
Verily, among the prophets of Allāh, the Almighty, were those who were PRESERVERS of the Sharī’ahs of the messengers, and were their khalīfahs in the rank.
 

In other words, some prophets were given no book or Sharī’ah. Their only job was to teach the people about the books and Sharī’ahs of the past prophets, and to implement them if they could. Usually, a messenger came with a new book or a new Sharī’ah. When he died, prophets came after him to teach his book and implement his Sharī’ah. They were his Khalīfahs only in the teaching and implementation of the book and/or the Sharī’ah. Other than teaching and implementing the book or Sharī’ah of the previous messenger, these prophets did nothing more. They received no legislative wahy, and no scripture from Allāh, and no Sharī’ah!
 

Is this not true? Is it not true that some, if not the majority of the prophets, were only like khalīfahs who only preserved the teachings and laws of a messenger? Is it not the same thing that Allāh has stated here:
 
Verily, We did send down the Tawrah (to Mūsā), therein was guidance and light, BY WHICH THE PROPHETS, WHO SUBMITTED THEMSELVES TO ALLĀH, AND THE RABBIS AND PRIESTS RULED AND JUDGED THE JEWS, FOR TO THEM WAS ENTRUSTED THE PRESERVATION OF ALLĀH’S BOOK, and they were witnesses to it.
Qur’ān 5:44

 

This blessed verse informs us that:
 
1. The Prophet Mūsā, peace be upon him, was sent by Allāh with the Tawrah, thereby proving that he was both a prophet and messenger.
2. After him, Allāh entrusted the preservation of the Tawrah to a succession of prophets, and after them to the rabbis and priests of Israel.
3. These prophets were given NO legislative wahy, or book or Sharī’ah. Rather, they performed the SAME function as the rabbis and priests of Israel.
4. The prophets, the rabbis and the priests were equal witnesses to the Tawrah.
5. Other than titles, there were no differences between the prophets, the rabbis and the priests in their preservation of the Tawrah.

 

 

This is what Sheikh Mufid r.h really said:

 
وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.
 

The Sharī’ah has only forbidden the naming of our Imāms with prophethood, although logic allows this due to their attaining what THOSE OF THE PROPHETS WE MENTIONED attained.

 

Look at how Khorasānī has completely altered what Shaykh al-Mufīd said, to support his dishonest agenda:
 
The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they(Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them.
 
There is NO mention of “qualities” in the text. Moreover, the word “claiming” is NOT in the text. Lastly, Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, was only referring to SOME of the prophets whom he mentioned, while Khorasānī doctored his words to look as though he was referring to all prophets!!! Such is what they do!

 

It is our belief that our Imāms, peace be upon them all, are the preservers of the Qur’ān and the Sharī’ah of Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, after him. In this way, they are NOT different from the majority of the past prophets who were also only preservers of the book and Sharī’ah of a previous messenger. This was what Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, was emphasizing. If not that prophethood had ended, the Imāms, peace be upon them, too would have been declared prophets by Allāh, since they perform the exact functions of the many (if not the majority) of prophets.
 
 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3223:refuting-khorasani-do-shias-believe-in-finality-of-prophethood&catid=205&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

 

Again, please read the article carefully. I understand that you got this video in the OP and the quotations from anti-shia websites, but please don't misinterpret things and claim that Shias believe that the Imams A.S were similar to all the Prophets A.S. The Imāmiyyah are unanimous that Prophethood (Prophets and Messengers) has ended with Prophet Muhammad S.A.W. 

 

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Barqi from abu Talib from Sadir who has said that he asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) the following.

"A certain group of people believe that you are gods. They read to us from the Quran about it. And it is He Who in heaven is God and in earth is God." (43:84). The Imam (a.s.) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and Allah also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. I swear by Allah, Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Resurrection. The only thing from Allah to them will be His anger." The narrator has said that he said, "Among us there is a group of people who believe that you are messenger and read to from the Holy Quran. "O Messengers, eat of the good things and do righteousness; surely I know the things you do (23:51). The Imam (a.s.) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and Allah and Hid Messenger also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Judgment. The only thing from Allah towards them will be His anger."

 

The narrator has said that he then asked, "What are you then?" the Imam (a.s.) said, "We are the treasuries of the knowledge of Allah. We are the translators of the commands of Allah. We are infallible people. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has commanded people to obey us and prohibited them to disobey us. We are the complete Divine authority over all that is below the heavens and above the earth."
Usool al Kafi, Volume 1, Kitab al Hujah, Chapter 53 Hadith 6

 
 
6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

In previous ummah there used to be muhadath. But with the end of prophet hood, this door of revelation is also closed. Interpretation of Ibn Hajar is wrong because there are other mutawatur narrations which reject this possibility. Ahadith are authority, not the scholars, if they go against it.

 

Again, no doubt that the door of revelation is also close, this is agreed by Shias as well. What Ibn Hajar and Al-Tayyibī mentioned was regarding Divine Inspiration, not regarding revelations etc. Ahadith are authority, but what will you do if authentic hadiths contradicts each other? I'm sure Ibn Hajar who is a very well known and big scholar in Ahlul Sunnah, would've known these "hadiths" that goes against this view before writing his statement. Either it's your own interpretation that is wrong, or the scholars, the hadiths etc that agrees with this view are wrong as well.

 

6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Ibn ‘Abbas said:
The Prophet(ﷺ) lifted the curtain (and saw that) the people were  standing in rows(of prayers) behind Abu Bakr. He said: O people, there remained nothing that gives good tidings from prophethood except a  true dream which a Muslim has himself or which another Muslim has for  him. I have been prohibited to recite the Qur’an while bowing or  prostration. As regards owing, exalt the Lord in it, and as to  prostration, make supplication with exertion in it, that is worthy of  being accepted. Sunan Abi Dawud 876

This hadith is mutawatur. For more read page 192 here http://dlia.ir/kotob/arabic/531/beharo_al_anvar_054/index.html

 

[192]
الآخرة " فإنها بشارة المؤمن عند الموت أن الله قد غفر لك ولمن يحملك إلى قبرك ( 1 )
63 - وعن ابن عباس " لهم البشرى في الحيوة الدنيا " قال : هي الرؤيا الحسنة
يراها المسلم لنفسه أو لبعض إخوانه . ( 2 )
64 - وعن ابن عباس ، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله : قال : ألا إنه لم يبق من مبشرات
النبوة إلا الرؤيا الصالحة يراها المسلم أو ترى له ( 3 ) .
65 - وعن أبي الطفيل عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : لا نبوة بعدي إلا المبشرات . قيل
يا رسول الله ، وما المبشرات ؟ قال : الرؤيا الصالحة
 . ( 4 )
66 - وعن أبي قتادة قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : الرؤيا الصالحة بشرى من الله
وهي جزء من أجزاء النبوة ( 5 ) .
67 - وعن أبي هريرة قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : إذا اقترب الزمان لم تكد رؤيا
المؤمن تكذب ، وأصدقهم رؤيا أصدقهم حديثا ، ورؤيا المسلم جزء من ستة وأربعين
جزء من النبوة . والرؤيا ثلاث : فالرؤيا الصالحة بشرى من الله ، والرؤيا من تحزين
الشيطان ، والرؤيا مما يحدث الرجل نفسه . وإذا رأى أحدكم ما يكره فليقم وليتفل
ولا يحدث به الناس . واحب القيد في النوم ، وأكره الغل ، القيد ثبات في الدين .
فإن رأى أحدكم رؤيا تعجبه فليقصها إن شاء ، وإن رأى شيئا يكرهه فلا يقصه على
أحد وليقم يصلي ( 6 ) .
68 - وعن عباد بن الصامت أن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله قال : رؤيا المؤمن جزء من ستة .
وأربعين جزء من النبوة ( 7 ) . وعن أنس مثله .
69 - وعن أبي سعيد الخدري عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : إذا رأى أحدكم الرؤيا يحبها
فإنما من الله فليحمد الله عليها وليحدث بها ، وإذا رأى غيره مما يكره فإنما هي
من الشيطان فليستعذ بالله من شرها ولا يذكرها لاحد فإنها لا تضره ( 8 ) .
70 - وعن أبي سعيد أيضا عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : الرؤيا الصالحة جزء من سبعين جزء
من النبوة ( 9 ) .
* ( هامش ) * ( 1 - 9 ) الدر المنثور : ج 3 ، ص 312 . 

 

If I'm not mistaken (my arabic is not so good), only one of the sources mentions the part regarding prophethood (so it's not mutawattir), and @E.L King already told you that the hadith was weak. Anyway if the hadith would be interpreted in your way, it would definitely go against the mutawattir hadiths regarding Imamah etc. 

Also if we accept your view (that any kind of similarities with Prophethood has completely ended, i.e that Allah SWT won't appoint anyone as a Caliph, or someone through Divine Inspiration), wouldn't this mean that we shouldn't believe in the return of Imam Mahdi A.J ? Or will Imam Mahdi A.J just be a regular person, maybe appointed by people? 

 

For the last time, it must be made clear, that the Imams A.S do not receive any kind of revelation, they may be divinely inspired (protected by Allah SWT and appointed by Him) but they do not receive any kind of new revelation. Our hadiths are clear on the matter, the Imams A.S has inherited the religious authority and knowledge from Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.

Regarding the hadiths with the angels, it is not problematic because it says that they hear them. It does not mean that the angels reveal anything new, or even talk with them. Also, you must stop picking single hadiths where you interpret them according to your own thoughts. This hadiths may only mention this as a difference, maybe because that in this context it was about angels. You have to look at all hadiths on the matter that talk about Imamah / Prophethood, as our scholars do. Hadiths must be judged according to the sand, matn, the context, compared to the Quran, with other hadiths etc. This is why it's dangerous if layman people simply pick and choose random hadiths without any knowledge regarding them.

 

Wsalam

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On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:

This is what Sheikh Mufid r.h really said:

 
وإنما منع الشرع من تسمية أئمتنا بالنبوة دون أن يكون العقل مانعا من ذلك لحصولهم على المعنى الذي حصل لمن ذكرناه من الأنبياء عليهم السلام.
 

The Sharī’ah has only forbidden the naming of our Imāms with prophethood, although logic allows this due to their attaining what THOSE OF THE PROPHETS WE MENTIONED attained.

 

Look at how Khorasānī has completely altered what Shaykh al-Mufīd said, to support his dishonest agenda:
 
The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they(Imams) have acquired the qualities that we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them.
 
There is NO mention of “qualities” in the text. Moreover, the word “claiming” is NOT in the text. Lastly, Shaykh al-Mufīd, may Allāh be pleased with him, was only referring to SOME of the prophets whom he mentioned, while Khorasānī doctored his words to look as though he was referring to all prophets!!! Such is what they do!

That's why I said the overall view point of Shaikh Mufeed do not change even if the translation is wrong. That is except the name or title there is no difference between the Imam and prophet. Imams have attained same level as prophets have attained everything same as Messengers except one thing (they get no new sharia) and they were caliphs of messsengers. Therefore logic allows this but sharia not. Is this not a state of  confusion. Imams are not prophets but are at exact same level and are doing exactly same job. In short only name changed. Brother name is not important, its the qualities which matter.

On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:

Verily, We did send down the Tawrah (to Mūsā), therein was guidance and light, BY WHICH THE PROPHETS, WHO SUBMITTED THEMSELVES TO ALLĀH, AND THE RABBIS AND PRIESTS RULED AND JUDGED THE JEWS, FOR TO THEM WAS ENTRUSTED THE PRESERVATION OF ALLĀH’S BOOK, and they were witnesses to it.
Qur’ān 5:44

 

This blessed verse informs us that:
 
1. The Prophet Mūsā, peace be upon him, was sent by Allāh with the Tawrah, thereby proving that he was both a prophet and messenger.
2. After him, Allāh entrusted the preservation of the Tawrah to a succession of prophets, and after them to the rabbis and priests of Israel.
3. These prophets were given NO legislative wahy, or book or Sharī’ah. Rather, they performed the SAME function as the rabbis and priests of Israel.
4. The prophets, the rabbis and the priests were equal witnesses to the Tawrah.
5. Other than titles, there were no differences between the prophets, the rabbis and the priests in their preservation of the Tawrah.

After prophets to rabbis and priests. Then Shaikh Mufeed should have called Imams like rabbis and priests, not like prophets. As now the door of prophet hood is closed for forever.

There are many many differences between prophets and rabbis and priests (who performed the same job). For example revelation. Every prophet used to receive revelation but same is not true for rabbis/priests. Content of revelation (i.e whether its a new sharia or not) does not matter. Read stories of prophets which are by name mentioned in Quran. They all received revelations depending on their situations and need. But if you compare prophets and Imams you will find no difference except the title. Same is said by Shaikh Mufeed.

Following narrations is a clear example that Imams get revelations. Its not the inspiration brother. Inspirations is the matter of heart. Allah has commanded to obey us. This is clear revelation matter.

On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:

The narrator has said that he then asked, "What are you then?" the Imam (a.s.) said, "We are the treasuries of the knowledge of Allah. We are the translators of the commands of Allah. We are infallible people. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has commanded people to obey us and prohibited them to disobey us. We are the complete Divine authority over all that is below the heavens and above the earth."

 

On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:
On 1/31/2017 at 7:56 AM, Fahad Sani said:

 

[192]
الآخرة " فإنها بشارة المؤمن عند الموت أن الله قد غفر لك ولمن يحملك إلى قبرك ( 1 )
63 - وعن ابن عباس " لهم البشرى في الحيوة الدنيا " قال : هي الرؤيا الحسنة
يراها المسلم لنفسه أو لبعض إخوانه . ( 2 )
64 - وعن ابن عباس ، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله : قال : ألا إنه لم يبق من مبشرات
النبوة إلا الرؤيا الصالحة يراها المسلم أو ترى له ( 3 ) .
65 - وعن أبي الطفيل عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : لا نبوة بعدي إلا المبشرات . قيل
يا رسول الله ، وما المبشرات ؟ قال : الرؤيا الصالحة
 . ( 4 )
66 - وعن أبي قتادة قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : الرؤيا الصالحة بشرى من الله
وهي جزء من أجزاء النبوة ( 5 ) .
67 - وعن أبي هريرة قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : إذا اقترب الزمان لم تكد رؤيا
المؤمن تكذب ، وأصدقهم رؤيا أصدقهم حديثا ، ورؤيا المسلم جزء من ستة وأربعين
جزء من النبوة . والرؤيا ثلاث : فالرؤيا الصالحة بشرى من الله ، والرؤيا من تحزين
الشيطان ، والرؤيا مما يحدث الرجل نفسه . وإذا رأى أحدكم ما يكره فليقم وليتفل
ولا يحدث به الناس . واحب القيد في النوم ، وأكره الغل ، القيد ثبات في الدين .
فإن رأى أحدكم رؤيا تعجبه فليقصها إن شاء ، وإن رأى شيئا يكرهه فلا يقصه على
أحد وليقم يصلي ( 6 ) .
68 - وعن عباد بن الصامت أن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله قال : رؤيا المؤمن جزء من ستة .
وأربعين جزء من النبوة ( 7 ) . وعن أنس مثله .
69 - وعن أبي سعيد الخدري عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : إذا رأى أحدكم الرؤيا يحبها
فإنما من الله فليحمد الله عليها وليحدث بها ، وإذا رأى غيره مما يكره فإنما هي
من الشيطان فليستعذ بالله من شرها ولا يذكرها لاحد فإنها لا تضره ( 8 ) .
70 - وعن أبي سعيد أيضا عنه صلى الله عليه وآله قال : الرؤيا الصالحة جزء من سبعين جزء
من النبوة ( 9 ) .
* ( هامش ) * ( 1 - 9 ) الدر المنثور : ج 3 ، ص 312 . 

 

If I'm not mistaken (my arabic is not so good), only one of the sources mentions the part regarding prophethood (so it's not mutawattir), and @E.L King already told you that the hadith was weak. Anyway if the hadith would be interpreted in your way, it would definitely go against the mutawattir hadiths regarding Imamah etc. 

Also if we accept your view (that any kind of similarities with Prophethood has completely ended, i.e that Allah SWT won't appoint anyone as a Caliph, or someone through Divine Inspiration), wouldn't this mean that we shouldn't believe in the return of Imam Mahdi A.J ? Or will Imam Mahdi A.J just be a regular person, maybe appointed by people? 

Regarding the hadiths with the angels, it is not problematic because it says that they hear them. It does not mean that the angels reveal anything new, or even talk with them. Also, you must stop picking single hadiths where you interpret them according to your own thoughts. This hadiths may only mention this as a difference, maybe because that in this context it was about angels. You have to look at all hadiths on the matter that talk about Imamah / Prophethood, as our scholars do. Hadiths must be judged according to the sand, matn, the context, compared to the Quran, with other hadiths etc. This is why it's dangerous if layman people simply pick and choose random hadiths without any knowledge regarding them.

Its mutawatur if you collect from all sources. Moreover E.L king rejected this but accept the following narrations, which clearly says Imams also get revelations like prophets. To which you said Imam can not get revelations.

Hasan b. Abbas once asked Imam al-Rida, peace be upon him, in a  letter. “What is the difference between a messenger, a prophet, and an  Imam?” The Imam answered as follows: “The messenger (rasul) is a  person to whom Jibril descends and who both sees him and hears the  words that he speaks. He is thus in communication with divine revelation (wahy), which he sometimes receives in the form of a dream,  as was the case with Ibrahim, peace be upon him.The prophet (nabiyy)  sometimes hears the words spoken by Jibril and at other times sees him  without hearing anything from him. The Imam hears the words that  Jibril utters without seeing him.” (al-Kulayni, al-Kafi, Vol. I,  p.176, hadeeth # 2)

Again let me repeat. Inspiration is a matter of heart. Hearing the words of angel and getting commands is a revelation just like prophets. Because the time when prophet get revelations they dont see angel. AN dwhen they see the angel at that time they dont get any revelation. More confusions. Read above narration carefully.

On 1/31/2017 at 2:49 PM, The Straight Path said:

For the last time, it must be made clear, that the Imams A.S do not receive any kind of revelation, they may be divinely inspired (protected by Allah SWT and appointed by Him) but they do not receive any kind of new revelation. Our hadiths are clear on the matter, the Imams A.S has inherited the religious authority and knowledge from Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.

 

Brother, you also seems confusing. First you said they do not receive any kind of revelation. Then you said they do not receive any kind of new revelation. I think you are mixing inspiration with revelation. Inspiration is related to heart, not with angel.

Moreover how can we verify from narrations of Imams that whether are part of old revelation or new? Because there are many narrations in shia books which are ghuluw based and taqqiyah based. One more level of confusion.

Edited by Fahad Sani

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On 1/31/2017 at 6:44 AM, The Straight Path said:

 

You know that there are many narrators in between Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and Bukhari apart from the Sahabas right? The English versions online only names one narrator "Umar narrates.." etc. but in the Arabic, there are much longer chains going all the way from Prophet Muhammad S.A.W to scholars like Bukhari and Muslim with many narrators in between. I suggest you read this blog post by brother @Qa'im:

You may have a lot of hadiths with Prophet's S.A.W name on it, but how can you be sure that all of them are truly authentic? 

I know this brother. And not all are authentic. You can find separate  books on sahih and weak/fabricated narrations. I was talking about  only authentic narrations which number around 10 thousand (whose sanad goes directly back to Prophet s.a.w.w without any defect) from  all ahlul sunnah hadith books.

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