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Fahad Sani

Love/Praise of Ahlulbayt and Ghuluw

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:bismillah:

:salam:

 

We all know that there were many people at the time of Ahlebait a.s  who were ghaali (exaggerators) who exalted Ahlebait a.s on the name of  their love for them. I think following narrations are from such type of people. Because regardless of their authenticity they are clearly against the explicit commands of Allah swt in Quran.

Below are the few examples. And they all are taken from this thread. 

Akhbari Shias accept and mention these narrations and other similar ones in their majalis, gatherings, books etc.

Here I want to know, do Usuli Shias (majority of shia chatters) also accept such narrations in merits of Ahlebait a.s.?


1. "Imam Ali (a.s) was asked about the knowledge of the prophet  (pbuh). Imam Ali (a.s) said: The prophet (pbuh) had the knowledge of  all the prophets (a.s), and he had the knowledge of what has occured  (in the past) and what will occur till the day of judgement. Then Imam  Ali (a.s) said I swear by the on who conrols my life that I have the  knowledge of the prophet (pbuh) and what will has occured (in the  past) and what will occur between me and the hour (i.e day of  judgment) ".
Reference: Basa'er Adarajat volume 1 page 262

2. Imam Al-Hadi (a.s) said: The only reason why Allah regarded Nabi  Abrahem (a.s) as his khalel (beloved friend), was due to the excess  amount of Salwat he sent upon Muhammed (pbuh) and his Ahlu Al-Bayt  (a.s).
Reference: Ilull Ashara'e volume 1, ch #32 hadith #3

3. Holy Prophet (pbuh) said to Ali (a.s): "If all the oceans were ink,  all the trees were pens, and all human beings were writers and all the  Jinn maintained the records, even then, O Abu'l-Hasan! Your virtues  could not be numbered."
Reference: One hundred virtues for Imam Ali (a.s) #100

4. A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from  Ali ibn al-Hakam from al-Muthanna al-Hannat from abu Basir who has  said the following. "Once I went to see abu Ja‘far (a.s.) and asked  him, "Are you the heirs of the Messenger of Allah?" He said, "Yes, we  are his heirs." I then asked, "Was the Messenger of Allah the heir of  the prophets and knew all that they knew?" He said to me, "Yes, it is  true." I then asked, "Do you have the power to bring the dead back to  life and cure the lepers, and the blind?" He said, "Yes, we do have  such powers by the permission of Allah." The he said to me, "Come  closer to me, O abu Muhammad." I went closer to him and he rubbed my  face and my eyes and saw the sun, the skies, the earth, the houses and  all things in the town. Then he said to me, "Do you like to live this  way and will have what others have and be responsible for whatever  they will be held responsible on the Day of Judgment or like to live  as before and will have paradise purely?" I said, "I would like to  live as I lived before." He rubbed my eyes and I found myself as  before." The narrator has said that he told it to ibn abu ‘Umayr who  said, "I testify that this is true just as the day is true."
Reference: Al-Kafi, vol 1, Page 470.

5. Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ‘Abd al-‘Aziz ibn  al-Muhtadi from ‘Adallah ibn Jundab to who Imam al-Rida (a.s.) wrote  the following. "Thereafter, (thanking Allah) Muhammad (s.a.) was the  trustee of Allah for His creatures. When he was taken away from this  world we, Ahl al-Bayt inherited him, thus, we are the trustees of  Allah over His earth. With us is the knowledge of the sufferings, the  death, the genealogy of the Arabs and the birth of Islam. We know the  man when we see him in the truth of faith or hypocrisy. Our followers  (Shi‘a) are listed (with us) by their names and the names of their  fathers. Allah has established a covenant with them and with us. They  land wherever we would do so and enter wherever we would enter. There  is no besides us and our followers as living the Islamic culture. We  are the noble saviors and the descendents of the prophets and of the  children of the successors of the prophets. We the ones to whom the  book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has come exclusively. We,  of all people, have the first priority (closeness) to the book of  Allah. We, of all people, have the first priority (closeness) to the  Messenger of Allah. For us He formed His religion.
Reference: Al-Kafi, vol 1, Page 224.

6. According to traditions attributed to the 5th and 6th Imams the Prophets and Imams are endowed with 5 spirits.
1) the holy spirit (Ruh al-Quds) who obtains knowledge for them and because of whom they can carry the repository of prophesy
2) the spirit of faith (Ruh al-Iman) through which they have faith, fear of the Lord and justice
3) the spirit of strength (ruh al-quwwa) through which they can expend effort in obedience to Allah
4) the spirit of longing (ruh al-shawah) through which they desire to serve Allah and satisfy their natural needs
5) the spirit of movement (ruh al-madraj) or the spirit of life (ruh al-hayat) which allows them to move

Reference: Basair section 9 ch. 14 pp. 445-50, al-Kulayni Usul volume 2 pp 15-16

 

These types of narrations are clearly in contradiction to Quran.

Say, [O Muhammad], "Invoke those you claim [as deities] besides Allah  ." They do not possess an atom's weight [of ability] in the heavens or on the earth, and they do not have therein any partnership [with Him], nor is there for Him from among them any assistant. [34:22]

And intercession does not benefit with Him except for one whom He  permits. [And those wait] until, when terror is removed from their  hearts, they will say [to one another], "What has your Lord said?"  They will say, "The truth." And He is the Most High, the Grand.  [34:23]

And to many other verses.

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Some narrations from Ahlebait in condemnation of ghuluw (exaggeration).

 

1. “Abu Ja’far (Imam Baqir a.s), has said, ‘O the community of Shi’a of the household of Muhammad (s), be the central support (take the middle path) so that both al- Ghali (exxagerators) and al-Tali (those left behind) refer to you.

A man from Ansar (people of Madina) called Sa’d, said, ‘May Allah keep my soul in service for your cause, what is the meaning of al-Ghali?’ The Imam said, ‘They are the people who say about us what we do not say about ourselves. Thus, they are not of our people and we are not of their people.’

The man then asked, ‘Who are al-Tali?’ The Imam said, ‘They are those who search for good. They receive the good and are rewarded for it.’

The Imam then turned to us and said, ‘I swear by Allah that we do not possess any amnesty from Allah and there is no family relation between Allah and us nor do we possess any authority over Allah. We do not seek nearness to Allah through any other means but obedience to Him. Whoever of you is obedient to Allah, it will benefit him, and whoever of you is disobedient to Allah, our guardianship, Wilayah, will not benefit him. What is the matter with you? Do not be misled! What is the matter with you? Do not be misled!’”

Al Kafi vol2 cover
Al Kafi vol2 ch32h6 ghuluw def

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. Allah (swt) says in the Quran “Do not exaggerate in your religion and do not say about Allah (swt) except the truth”, and Imam Ali (as) said “O Allah (swt), I dissociate myself from the Ghulat (exaggerators) like Jesus (as)’s dissociation from the Christians.
3. Imam Sadiq (as) says “The Ghulat (exaggerators) are the worst of Allah’s creation, they belittle Allah (swt) and they claim lordship for his servants, I swear by Allah (swt), the Ghulat are worse than the Jews, Christians, Majoos and all those who associate with Allah (swt).

bihar al anwar v25 cover page
Bihar vol25 ch refutation of ghulat h32 33

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4. In Al Amali of Sheikh Toosi, pg 650, it has been narrated.

Through Abdul Rahman bin Muslim, from Fudhayl bin Yasaar, who said: Imam Sadiq (as) said: “Watch out for your youth and be vigilant in protecting them from the Ghulaat (extremists) lest they corrupt their minds, because the Ghulaat are the worst of God’s creation: they belittle the greatness of Allah, and they claim divine attributes and qualities for the servants of Allah.

I swear by Allah, the Ghulaat (extremist Shias) are worse than the Jews and the Christians and the Majoos and the (conventional) polytheists……”

Amali shk Toosi cover
Ghali vs Muqassir Amali shk Toosi
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Imams (as), due to their experience of the Ghulat in their own time, and due to their farsightedness, knew how dangerous this disease of Ghuluw is, and how it can take people away from the correct religion and make them busy in innovations and rituals which have no basis in Islam.

This is the reason why the Imams (as) warned us, by harshly condemning and cursing the Ghulat, so that we take all the necessary precautions in order to keep ourselves safe from this deadly disease of Ghuluw, but unfortunately, these warnings of the Imams (as) were not narrated from the pulpits (mimbar) and hence the people remained unaware of them and did not take the necessary precautions to save themselves from Ghuluw.

Edited by Fahad Sani

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 Are these narration s false brother?

I haven't heard about them but these traditions are confusing me 

See the 1 point is about devinely gifted knowledge ri8 so imam and prophet had devinely gifted knowledge so what's wrong  In it? Plz explain me 

 

And  Reference of 4&5 is AL kafi so does this book include wrong traditions

Coz I have got this book from my Islamic class and we are 12 veR not akhbaris 

So plz help me out 

Edited by magma
Removed long quote

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58 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

3. Imam Sadiq (as) says “The Ghulat (exaggerators) are the worst of Allah’s creation, they belittle Allah (swt) and they claim lordship for his servants, I swear by Allah (swt), the Ghulat are worse than the Jews, Christians, Majoos and all those who associate with Allah (swt).

The exaggerators are the people who worshipped the Imams (as) as Gods - not the real Shi'as.

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13 hours ago, Pearl3112 said:

 Are these narration s false brother?

I haven't heard about them but these traditions are confusing me 

See the 1 point is about devinely gifted knowledge ri8 so imam and prophet had devinely gifted knowledge so what's wrong  In it? Plz explain me 

 

And  Reference of 4&5 is AL kafi so does this book include wrong traditions

Coz I have got this book from my Islamic class and we are 12 veR not akhbaris 

So plz help me out 

This book Kafi like any other hadith book contain both weak and authentic narrations. But percentage vise there are more weak narrations in this book. According to Allama Majlisi 41% narrations are authentic only in Kafi.

Its not about gifted knowledge but about knowledge of unseen both past and future. Just Allah swt has.

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13 hours ago, zainabamy said:

The exaggerators are the people who worshipped the Imams (as) as Gods - not the real Shi'as.

Worshiped as God means claiming divine attributes for them.

14 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

4. In Al Amali of Sheikh Toosi, pg 650, it has been narrated.

Through Abdul Rahman bin Muslim, from Fudhayl bin Yasaar, who said: Imam Sadiq (as) said: “Watch out for your youth and be vigilant in protecting them from the Ghulaat (extremists) lest they corrupt their minds, because the Ghulaat are the worst of God’s creation: they belittle the greatness of Allah, and they claim divine attributes and qualities for the servants of Allah.

 

here was my question for usuli shias. Many such attributes are mentioned in Quran in Naml 59-64.

14 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Akhbari Shias accept and mention these narrations and other similar ones in their majalis, gatherings, books etc.

Here I want to know, do Usuli Shias (majority of shia chatters) also accept such narrations in merits of Ahlebait a.s.?

I am not blaming anyone here. Just asking opinion of usuli shias. WHile I know akhbari shias accept such narrations as you can verify from the thread in OP.

Edited by Fahad Sani

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Maryam (sa) was given the ability the conceive even though she was a virgin. Luqman (as) was given divine knowledge so that he was at one with nature. Jesus (as) could bring the dead back to life. If Allah (swt) allows these events to take place then why deny the virtues of Ahlulbayt (as) when they are many and cannot be counted?

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59 minutes ago, zainabamy said:

Maryam (sa) was given the ability the conceive even though she was a virgin. Luqman (as) was given divine knowledge so that he was at one with nature. Jesus (as) could bring the dead back to life. If Allah (swt) allows these events to take place then why deny the virtues of Ahlulbayt (as) when they are many and cannot be counted?

She's 110% right, not to mention the Ahlulbayt (as) came from the blessed Prophet (saws) and their special merits through Muhammad came from Allah (swt), just as he came from Allah (swt).

Anything supernatural they did came from Allah (swt) and Allah (swt) only. Thus I reject the notion that they had powers independently of Allah (swt) like the ghalis believed/believe.

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@Fahad Sani 

For those who deny that Allah (SWT) did not gave Secret Knowledge to Prophets listen to Quran: 

·        [Shakir 6:91] And they do not assign to Allah the attributes due to Him when they say: Allah has not revealed anything to a mortal. Say: Who revealed the Book which Musa brought, a light and a guidance to men, which you make into scattered writings which you show while you conceal much? And you were taught what you did not know, (neither) you nor your fathers. Say: Allah then leave them sporting in their vain discourses.

For those who deny the Miracles of Ahle bait listen to Quran

·        [Yusufali 5:110] Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.

For those who are jealous of the excellence of the Ahle bait a.s, Listen to Quran:

·        [3:33] Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above the nations.

Likewise, the descendant of Prophet PBUHHP, the holy Ahle bait are above the nations.

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2 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Worshiped as God means claiming divine attributes for them.

Define "divine". 

Is it limited to God himself, or more broadly anything that is God-inspired, directed, or delegated?

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16 hours ago, zainabamy said:

Maryam (sa) was given the ability the conceive even though she was a virgin. Luqman (as) was given divine knowledge so that he was at one with nature. Jesus (as) could bring the dead back to life. If Allah (swt) allows these events to take place then why deny the virtues of Ahlulbayt (as) when they are many and cannot be counted?

I am not denying virtues of ahlebait which are both authentic and in accordance with the Quran. Read narrations 1-6 in OP and tell me are they authentic merits of ahlebait or are attributed to them by ghullat of their time.

15 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

She's 110% right, not to mention the Ahlulbayt (as) came from the blessed Prophet (saws) and their special merits through Muhammad came from Allah (swt), just as he came from Allah (swt).

Anything supernatural they did came from Allah (swt) and Allah (swt) only. Thus I reject the notion that they had powers independently of Allah (swt) like the ghalis believed/believe.

There were/are many sects withing ghaalis. And all of them did not believe they have powers independent of Allah. What you think about narrations in OP. Are they all authentic merits?

15 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

@Fahad Sani 

For those who deny that Allah (SWT) did not gave Secret Knowledge to Prophets listen to Quran: 

For those who deny the Miracles of Ahle bait listen to Quran

For those who are jealous of the excellence of the Ahle bait a.s, Listen to Quran:

·       

Brother, neither I am jealous nor a enemy of ahlebait. Read my first two posts carefully and then comment. Narrations 1-6 seems exaggeration as they are contradicting Quran and such exaggerators are highly condemned by ahlebait. Try to differentiate between true merits and exaggerations.

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14 hours ago, magma said:

Define "divine". 

Is it limited to God himself, or more broadly anything that is God-inspired, directed, or delegated?

Divine in the sense which is associated with Allah swt alone. More than ten such divine attributes are mentioned in Surah Naml 59-64. If anyone assign/consider any of those attribute to someone its like they have considered such person an illah (god), whether independently or not, it doesnt matter.

 

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9 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

Divine in the sense which is associated with Allah swt alone. More than ten such divine attributes are mentioned in Surah Naml 59-64. If anyone assign/consider any of those attribute to someone its like they have considered such person an illah (god), whether independently or not, it doesnt matter.

 

This is the problem in using English definitions for English words. 

What term would you use for the second broader definition I gave, if "divine" is unacceptable?

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People have problems with fazail and merits of Ahlulbayt(aS) Because they have  limited God in their minds. And they think ahlulbayt(as) has reached that status. In this case if prophet(pbuh) and imams(aS) knows what has happened and what will happen till the day of resurrection, they assume like God has only this world. And God doesn't has anymore universe or knowledge. So they have limited Allah in their minds.

 

God is unlimited so is his divinity. And Allah has bestowed and continue to bestow as much as knowledge to ahlulbayt(As) as he seem appropriate. Which is beyond our comprehension. 

Gulats are the ones those who worship ahlulbayt(as) as Allah. Who call ahlulabyat(as) as Allah, that's Kufar. Thinking they are Gods themselves astagfurrallah. Ahlulbayt(as) are just the best creatures of Allah. And only Allah can understand them and they(as) can understand Allah according to capacity that God has given them. 

But it's sad to see people have  limited God in their minds that's why they can't understand Ahlllabyt(AS), let alone Allah. Ahlulbayt(As) are the signs of Allah. If you can't understand them it means the one who has created them(as) is truly someone who can't be comprehended with our limited minds.  

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13 hours ago, magma said:

This is the problem in using English definitions for English words. 

What term would you use for the second broader definition I gave, if "divine" is unacceptable?

Word divine can be used for both. The word can be used in many ways.

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13 hours ago, Struggling_onn said:

People have problems with fazail and merits of Ahlulbayt(aS) Because they have  limited God in their minds. And they think ahlulbayt(as) has reached that status. In this case if prophet(pbuh) and imams(aS) knows what has happened and what will happen till the day of resurrection, they assume like God has only this world. And God doesn't has anymore universe or knowledge. So they have limited Allah in their minds.

 

God is unlimited so is his divinity. And Allah has bestowed and continue to bestow as much as knowledge to ahlulbayt(As) as he seem appropriate. Which is beyond our comprehension. 

Gulats are the ones those who worship ahlulbayt(as) as Allah. Who call ahlulabyat(as) as Allah, that's Kufar. Thinking they are Gods themselves astagfurrallah. Ahlulbayt(as) are just the best creatures of Allah. And only Allah can understand them and they(as) can understand Allah according to capacity that God has given them. 

But it's sad to see people have  limited God in their minds that's why they can't understand Ahlllabyt(AS), let alone Allah. Ahlulbayt(As) are the signs of Allah. If you can't understand them it means the one who has created them(as) is truly someone who can't be comprehended with our limited minds.  

This is the problem. Brother I am not denying merits of ahlebait altogether.

Which things make someone a god? How will you tell that now someone has considered ahlebait a god?

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7 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

This is the problem. Brother I am not denying merits of ahlebait altogether.

Which things make someone a god? How will you tell that now someone has considered ahlebait a god?

When they start worshipping them... calling them God. Like Nusari they call imam ali(as) Allah. They started to worship him(aS) after seeing miracles of imam ali(as). 

When they start thinking Alulbayt(AS) are all in all and god has given them everything and God has nothing more to give... !!! that's Kufar. When people start to limit God in their minds and start thinking Ahlulbayt(AS) are just like God and they(as) doesn't need God anymore astagfurrallah. And that's what Galu is... Galu is actually reducing the greatness of Allah in your minds. 

 

God is unlimited and beyond comprehension. Ahlulbayt(AS) are the best creatures of Allah. 

Edited by Struggling_onn

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13 hours ago, Struggling_onn said:

When they start worshipping them... calling them God. Like Nusari they call imam ali(as) Allah. They started to worship him(aS) after seeing miracles of imam ali(as). 

When they start thinking Alulbayt(AS) are all in all and god has given them everything and God has nothing more to give... !!! that's Kufar. When people start to limit God in their minds and start thinking Ahlulbayt(AS) are just like God and they(as) doesn't need God anymore astagfurrallah. And that's what Galu is... 

 

God is unlimited in all his virtues.  

Ok keeping this criteria in mind, what you think about narrations in OP. How many out of 6 seems authentic to you?

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42 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

Brother, neither I am jealous nor a enemy of ahlebait. Read my first two posts carefully and then comment. Narrations 1-6 seems exaggeration as they are contradicting Quran and such exaggerators are highly condemned by ahlebait. Try to differentiate between true merits and exaggerations.

Brother, what is unacceptable to you ? We know that even angels visit the land and ordinary homes and bring barakat. So, why is this unacceptable to you, if Imam Jafar-al-Sadiq says that Ruh-al-Ameen visits them then it is true because they are Imams and chosen ones and did Jibrael not visit Hazrat Maryam a.s who was not a Prophet ? So, I wonder why this is unacceptable to you. 

Edited by Sindbad05

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3 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

Ok keeping this criteria in mind, what you think about narrations in OP. How many out of 6 seems authentic to you?

God is plentiful, there is plenty of things that God gives them daily in every moment but his treasure does not extinct. Neither Allah (SWT) feels tired in giving away not Ahlul bait a.s feel bored from taking from Allah (SWT). And, we do not worship Ahle bait a.s but we obey them because their obedience is worship of Allah (SWT).

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13 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Brother, what is unacceptable to you ? We know that even angels visit the land and ordinary homes and bring barakat. So, why is this unacceptable to you, if Imam Jafar-al-Sadiq says that Ruh-al-Ameen visits them and did he not visit Hazrat Maryam a.s which was not a Prophet ? So, I wonder why this is unacceptable to you. 

Ruh ul ameen visited Maryam s.a, its in Quran. While other is in narration. May be such narration is from Ghullat. Just tell me about narrations in OP. How many of them seems authentic to you?

19 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

The Imam then turned to us and said, ‘I swear by Allah that we do not possess any amnesty from Allah and there is no family relation between Allah and us nor do we possess any authority over Allah. We do not seek nearness to Allah through any other means but obedience to Him. Whoever of you is obedient to Allah, it will benefit him, and whoever of you is disobedient to Allah, our guardianship, Wilayah, will not benefit him. What is the matter with you? Do not be misled! What is the matter with you? Do not be misled!’”

 

19 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Through Abdul Rahman bin Muslim, from Fudhayl bin Yasaar, who said: Imam Sadiq (as) said: “Watch out for your youth and be vigilant in protecting them from the Ghulaat (extremists) lest they corrupt their minds, because the Ghulaat are the worst of God’s creation: they belittle the greatness of Allah, and they claim divine attributes and qualities for the servants of Allah.

 

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25 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

 

Which things make someone a god? 

See that question about things is itself a problem. 

first you tell me What is God in your mind ? 

Let me know what do you think of as a God. Tell us your definition of God. What things make a God. I'm interested to know.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Struggling_onn

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13 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

God is plentiful, there is plenty of things that God gives them daily in every moment but his treasure does not extinct. Neither Allah (SWT) feels tired in giving away not Ahlul bait a.s feel bored from taking from Allah (SWT). And, we do not worship Ahle bait a.s but we obey them because their obedience is worship of Allah (SWT).

You are not understanding the matter.

Read this post. How will you differentiate between merits and exaggerations. No body worship ahlebait like idol worshipers.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235046329-lovepraise-of-ahlulbayt-and-ghuluw/#comment-3006843

 

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13 hours ago, Struggling_onn said:

See that question about things is itself a problem. There aren't any things that make God a God.

first you tell me What is God in your mind ?

You have already answered that question. Now keeping that answer in mind. Just tell.

13 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Ok keeping this criteria in mind, what you think about narrations in OP. How many out of 6 seems authentic to you?

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1 minute ago, Fahad Sani said:

Read this post. How will you differentiate between merits and exaggerations. No body worship ahlebait like idol worshipers.

You make it look like it's splitting hairs, as if the distance between ghulat and not is a thin line. Perhaps the gap between the two is far wider than you think. 

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