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Amr bil Maroof and Nahi an al Munkar

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5 minutes ago, E.L King said:

2. It depends on the circumstance. I can easily go to a Jew for example and tell him eating pork is bad, and demonstrating that from his own books.

Yes I agree with you on that, but approaching someone with no knowledge of what he believes in could be harmful and better to avoid. Only in exteme cases where you think it can be effective to a non Muslim would make it obligatory.

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1 minute ago, shiaman14 said:

Let's try a different approach.

The verse I previously quoted which apparently yo can read but not understand states, " [Shakir 9:71] And (as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise "

Now, ABM and NAM are listed before salat and zakat.

Do you or would you force non-muslims to pray salah or give zakat in Australia?

No because that comes under the heading of ABM. 

Only Nahi an al Munkar is wajib on kafirs.

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11 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

 

Nice try, but you are absolutely incorrect, and this is why I say people should learn Arabic so that they do no come up with dubious conclusions such as this.

The Sayyed here is only giving example, if you read his rulings regarding this he speaks in a general matter, he is merely telling you that it becomes more pressing to you when it is with you family.

Refer to the OP please.

And yes, the matter becomes much greater with regards to the family, but it is an obligation on anybody.

Quote

Ruling 1870. The obligation to enjoin good and forbidding evil on every mukallaf is greater with respect to his family and relatives. Therefore, if with regard to his family and relatives he feels that they are inattentive to, and unconcerned about, religious obligations such as performing prayers (salah), keeping fasts (sawm), and praying the one-fifth tax (khums), and suchlike, or, if he sees that they are careless and fearless with regard to committing unlawful acts such as backbiting and lying, then he must prevent improper actions being performed by them and invite them to do good deeds with a greater sense of importance, while observing the three levels of enjoining good and forbidding evil.

Nowhere does it say it is only for family members. How you came up with such a conclusion is beyond me.

Edited by E.L King

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And like I said, this can be a communal wajib:

* What has this to do with me, i.e. meddling in other people’s affairs? Does it not suffice that I adhere to what is required from me by the Islamic injunctions?

- Beware, o son! You shouldn’t say that. In certain circumstances, this obligation is a collective one imposed on the Muslim community (wajibun kifa’i, by contrast to wajibun aini - the obligation that falls on every adult Muslim i.e. individual duty): In other words, when you, I, and others do not discharge such a duty, all of us shall be rendered sinners. If only one of us takes it upon themselves to uphold the obligation, the rest shall be absolved of the responsibility.

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Alot of brothers are sometimes confused as to whether to go to gatherings which include haram drinks or not. If you do go, it should be for this reason:

Quote

Question: Is it permissible for a Muslim to attend a gathering where intoxicating drinks are being served?

Answer: Eating and drinking in those gatherings is forbidden. However, the prohibition in attending such gatherings is based on obligatory precaution. But there is no problem in attending such gatherings for the purpose of forbidding the evil (nahi ‘anil munkar), if one is capable of doing that.

http://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01187/#15360

Edited by E.L King

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Also if you are a poet who will have hijabless women attend your gathering:

601. Question: Is it permissible for a poet to organize a gathering where poetry is recited and where he knows that women without hijab and indecent dress would also attend?

Answer: By itself, there is no problem in it; but he must fulfill the duty of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil, if the conditions exist.

https://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani/miscellaneous

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Also, I promised to post a fatwa regarding the non-Muslims and how this topic affects them.

Question: Is it obligatory to enjoin the good (amr bi ’l-ma‘rûf) and forbid the evil (nahi ‘ani ’l-munkar) in regard to those who are not followers of Islam or are from the Ahlul Kitãb, who are receptive, without any harm coming our way?

Answer: Yes, it is obligatory, provided that the other conditions also exist. One of those other conditions is that the person to be admonished should not have an excuse for doing the evil or neglecting the obligation. Being ignorant out of negligence is not an acceptable excuse. So, such a person should first be guided to the right conduct, and then if they do not act accordingly, they should be asked to do good or be forbidden from doing evil. However, if the evil deed is of a category that one knows Allãh does not like it to happen in any circumstances —like creating corruption in the earth, killing an innocent person, etc— it is necessary to prevent it, even if the doer is ignorant out of innocence. 

https://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani/interaction-social-life

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23 minutes ago, E.L King said:

No because that comes under the heading of ABM. 

Only Nahi an al Munkar is wajib on kafirs.

Nahi an al Munkar is NOT wajib on kafirs - one should exercise obligatory precaution. This is just twisted and perverted understanding.

22 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Nice try, but you are absolutely incorrect, and this is why I say people should learn Arabic so that they do no come up with dubious conclusions such as this.

The Sayyed here is only giving example, if you read his rulings regarding this he speaks in a general matter, he is merely telling you that it becomes more pressing to you when it is with you family.

Refer to the OP please.

It is a book title "Code of Islam for Muslims living in the West". He constantly refers to family, family, family. Here is the order for you again:

1) Self
2) FAMILY
3) Neighbors
4)
5)
6)

No where does it say that you should stand in the market square and shout ISLAM, ISLAM, ISLAM to everyone. Unless you and your family have attained the status of perfection in Islam, you can't impose it on to others. And no, an active murderer cannot tell another murderer to stop murdering because its hypocrisy.

26 minutes ago, E.L King said:

And yes, the matter becomes much greater with regards to the family, but it is an obligation on anybody.

Nowhere does it say it is only for family members. How you came up with such a conclusion is beyond me.

Since you are acknowledging the matter is greater with regards for family then you should go for the greater good.

Since 9.71 was not enough for you, then let's look at the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw):

A) The Prophet (saw) started his mission with his wife (as) --> cousin --> immediately family --> extended family --> friends --> Meccans --> Medinites, etc, etc. (some overlap obviously)
B) The Prophet (saw) started his mission preaching to the whole world --> Hijaz --> Medina --> Mecca --> friends --> extended family --> immediate family --> cousin --> wife (some overlap obviously)

Pick A or B.

It seems like you would rather interpret things on your own with limited knowledge of Quran and Sunnah and ignore advice from people who are much more senior to you in age, experience and wisdom. I guess we can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink the water.

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Some people find that shouting ''Aisha killed the Prophet (as) and was a kafirah'' is considered nahi al munkar. You advising them to run up on people?

We must first learn thoroughly what munkar and maroof entail, in every detail untill it's firm in our selves. Otherwise you're running around like a loose screw. Other than this sidenote, I agree with everything you said.

Edited by P. Ease

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1 minute ago, P. Ease said:

Some people find that shouting ''Aisha killed the Prophet (as) and was a kafirah'' is considered nahi al munkar. You advising them to run up on people?

We must first learn thoroughly what munkar and maroof entail, in every detail untill it's firm in our selves. Otherwise you're running around like a loose screw. Other than this sidenote, I agree with everything you said.

Of course bro you use the most suitable and logical way to convince people.

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I don't know, I think you're going about this the wrong way,E.L.

I didn't convert to Islam because someone kept ramming Islam down my throat. I converted because I saw truth in it and it was reasonable to me: Had someone done to me what you are suggesting, I definitely would have been repulsed by their attempts to get me to be Muslim and never considered Islam.

In the meantime,I think you should re-read what Hameedeh and Shiaman wrote. Astaghfirillah, lest you completely skewer the meaning behind Khamenei's (ha) rulings with your black and white views.

Seeing in black and white is a sign of naivete and immaturity. Sistani said to exercise precaution, the opposite of what you are doing right now.

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6 hours ago, hameedeh said:

Yes, I understood what you wrote. As an Ayatullah HA he can command anyone, and rightly so. Others need to act according to their station in life and their culture: a teenager should not command an elder, a student should not command his teacher, a wife should not command her husband; all examples of diminishing the honor of someone they need to deal with on a regular basis. 

Amar bil maroof is not just commanding, you can gently show someone the correct way and it would still be Amar bil Maroof.

About the age thing Imam Hassan(as) and Imam Hussain (as) taught corrected an old man in this narration here: 

http://www.welayatnet.com/en/news/71556

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“There has to be a nation among you summoning to the good, bidding  what is right, and forbidding what is wrong, it is they who are the  felicitous” (Ale Imran:104).

It has been reported that the most Noble Messenger (s) said: “My  nation will always be with goodness as long as its people enjoin good  and forbid evil and assist one another in piety. If they do not do  that, then blessings will be taken away from them and some of them  will impose their rule over others, and there will be no helper for  them on the earth or in the sky” (Mustadruk al-wasail wa Mustanbat al  masail vol 12 pg.181).

It has been reported that His eminence Amir Al- Momineen (as) said:  “Do not abandon enjoining good and forbidding evil, otherwise the evil  people among you will take charge over you, and then when you  supplicate, you will not be answered” (Nahjul Balagah. Letter 47)

ABM and NAM is part of our Iman (faith) and there are three level of it.

On the authority of Abu Sa’eed al-Khudree (may Allah be pleased with  him) who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of  Allah be upon him) say, “Whosoever of you sees an evil, let him change  it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then [let him change  it] with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart — and that is the weakest of faith.” [Muslim]

Here is a good article on this matter.
http://www.islamic-laws.com/articles/AmrBilMaroof.htm

And what you people think at what level of ABM and NAM Imams a.s were? This a question for those who believe that Imams a.s were under taqqiyah many times throughout their life? In other words those whose job was to guide people via ABM and NAM were under taqqiyah (hiding the truth)?

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1. LoL.Why has everyone ganged up on him?He has quoted narrations so those of you who are just giving their opinion,it would be better if you come up with a ruling or hadith to back up what you are saying.

2.I don't see him advocating that you start shouting 'Islam' 'islam' to people on the streets. I agree with @shiaman14 here,  it starts with you household and then the circle widens to include family and neighbours but the general people are by no means excluded from ABM and NAM. 

3. Making a decision about the latter is subjective and varies from situation to situation but I would repeat it's not right to strike it off the list.

4. Why most people here are focusing on hijab as an example of ABN to general public? There are other things and let's not forget islam is a way of life. There is a lot more to 'enjoining good and forbidding evil' than preaching about namaz and hijab. What would you do if you see an act of cruelty and oppression(zulm) done in public? Would you just look away or try to think if there is a way to correcting it without putting yourself in a dangerous situation? 

I  am afraid lots of people would choose the former because that's what West tells us 'mind your own business'. Why not?  It's the easy way out,it let's us off the hook from any responsibility and eases our conscience.

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7 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Nahi an al Munkar is NOT wajib on kafirs - one should exercise obligatory precaution. This is just twisted and perverted understanding.

Yes it is, refer to the fatwa of Sistani above thanks. And you can tell him that he is wrong, and you can explain that to him. I am only here to post rulings, not to debate them. :)

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2 hours ago, starlight said:

1. LoL.Why has everyone ganged up on him?He has quoted narrations so those of you who are just giving their opinion,it would be better if you come up with a ruling or hadith to back up what you are saying.

2.I don't see him advocating that you start shouting 'Islam' 'islam' to people on the streets. I agree with @shiaman14 here,  it starts with you household and then the circle widens to include family and neighbours but the general people are by no means excluded from ABM and NAM. 

3. Making a decision about the latter is subjective and varies from situation to situation but I would repeat it's not right to strike it off the list.

4. Why most people here are focusing on hijab as an example of ABN to general public? There are other things and let's not forget islam is a way of life. There is a lot more to 'enjoining good and forbidding evil' than preaching about namaz and hijab. What would you do if you see an act of cruelty and oppression(zulm) done in public? Would you just look away or try to think if there is a way to correcting it without putting yourself in a dangerous situation? 

I  am afraid lots of people would choose the former because that's what West tells us 'mind your own business'. Why not?  It's the easy way out,it let's us off the hook from any responsibility and eases our conscience.

Salaam,

It isn't about generalities but more how / when do you preach Islam. 

"No matter how hard one tries, a rock can never become a sponge." - ShiaMan14 :)

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4 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I don't know, I think you're going about this the wrong way,E.L.

I didn't convert to Islam because someone kept ramming Islam down my throat. I converted because I saw truth in it and it was reasonable to me: Had someone done to me what you are suggesting, I definitely would have been repulsed by their attempts to get me to be Muslim and never considered Islam.

In the meantime,I think you should re-read what Hameedeh and Shiaman wrote. Astaghfirillah, lest you completely skewer the meaning behind Khamenei's (ha) rulings with your black and white views.

Seeing in black and white is a sign of naivete and immaturity. Sistani said to exercise precaution, the opposite of what you are doing right now.

Once again, no proof and simply just emotional talk. 

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2 hours ago, starlight said:

1. LoL.Why has everyone ganged up on him?He has quoted narrations so those of you who are just giving their opinion,it would be better if you come up with a ruling or hadith to back up what you are saying.

1. It's not what he said that is the issue,but the way he presented it that is the issue. Besides Hameedeh has told him to use precaution as per Sistani's ruling and I agree with her on that

 

2 hours ago, starlight said:

Nobody here is trying to gang up on him out of malice or at least I hope so. Certainly not my intention to do so. Sorry made a mistake.

 

2 hours ago, starlight said:

2.I don't see him advocating that you start shouting 'Islam' 'islam' to people on the streets. I agree with @shiaman14 here,  it starts with you household and then the circle widens to include family and neighbours but the general people are by no means excluded from ABM and NAM. 

2. I agree with you and Shiaman but most non-Muslims wouldn't appreciate some random Muslim kept telling them to cover their heads and don't hold hands or drink alcohol. To our beliefs and faith is ours and their beliefs and faith is theirs. I read what he wrote and it is basically walking up to people and commanding them. That will not go well in public, especially in the West and with non-Muslims.

2 hours ago, starlight said:

3. Making a decision about the latter is subjective and varies from situation to situation but I would repeat it's not right to strike it off the list.

3. Right and I agree with you but  we should make sure that our audience is willing and receptive to NAM and ABM. (Especially applicable in the West)

Want to remind people of NAM and ABM? Joining a youth group at a local masjid would be a good start and when non-Muslims who are curious about what is Islam come, then you may tell them about NAM and ABM and encourage them to become Muslim.

2 hours ago, starlight said:

4. Why most people here are focusing on hijab as an example of ABN to general public? There are other things and let's not forget islam is a way of life. There is a lot more to 'enjoining good and forbidding evil' than preaching about namaz and hijab. What would you do if you see an act of cruelty and oppression(zulm) done in public? Would you just look away or try to think if there is a way to correcting it without putting yourself in a dangerous situation? 

I  am afraid lots of people would choose the former because that's what West tells us 'mind your own business'. Why not?  It's the easy way out,it let's us off the hook from any responsibility and eases our conscience.

4. Why not, it's just an example. Of course, there are many examples. You see Islam is a religion and a way of life,most people in the West are content with their lives and afraid of change, especially in America. It's a sad statement but true.

It's easier than said than done, but I would stand up against oppression happening in front of me as would any sensible person would in the West, Non-Muslim or Muslim. "Minding your own business" doesn't mean complacency or ignorance over there, it means accepting one's differences from you without raising a stink about it.

Why do you think we have so many different faiths get along here? Because it is a norm to agree to disagree and mind each other business in the US.  We're not the French fortunately, masha'Allah, we try not to infringe upon people's beliefs but I don't see Sunnis bombing Shias and attacking mosques and Imambargahs like in Pakistan either.

I hope that I didn't offend you, I was trying to clarify.

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