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Fahad Sani

Two critical narrations from shia books

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:salam:

These events happened after ghadir e khum during the last days of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.w in this world.

Are these narrations authentic as per shia standard?


1.

Abbas bin Abd al-Muttalib spoke to Amir Al-Muminin (Ali bin Abi Talib)  during the illness of the Prophet (peace be upon him), so that he asks  the Prophet, who will be in charge of affairs after him, and that if  it is for us (Ahl al-Bayt) he should reveal it; and if it is for some  other people, he entrust it to us. The leader of the faithful (Ali)  said, we went to the Messenger of Allah when his illness became  serious and we said O Messenger of Allah, choose a successor for us,  He said. “No, I fear that you will be divided regarding him, as the  children of Israel became divided over Harun, but if Allah knows any  goodness in you, He will choose for you (a leader).

Source: Murtada: Al-Shafi, vol-4, p. 149 and vol. 3 p. 295.
           

2.

Imam Ja'far bin Muhammad Sadiq: ‘When the Messenger of Allah (peace be  upon him) was on his death bed, he called Abbas and Amir al-Muminin,  and then he said to Abbas “O the uncle of Muhammad … you will take the  heritage of Muhammad, pay back his debts and repulse his enemy”. He  replied him saying, "O Messenger of Allah, let my father and mother be  your ransom, I am an old man with many dependants and little wealth,  who can bear the like of your responsibilities?” He lowered his head  for a while and then he said again, “O Abbas, will you take the  heritage of Muhammad, repulse his enemy and pay back his loans?” He  replied as before… He then said “Definitely, I will give it to the one  who will take it and all the responsibilities associated with it.”  Then he said: “O Ali! O brother of Muhammad, will you repulse the  enemy of Muhammad, pay back his loans and take hold of his heritage?  He said, “Yes, let my father and mother be your ransom”. ‘Such is Ali,  my beloved friend’.

Source: Kulayni: Al-Kafi, vol 1 p. 236 from Muhammad bin Hussain and Ali bin Muhammad from Sahl bin Ziyad from Muhammad bin Walid, al- Sirafi from Iban bin Uthman from Abu Abdullah.
 

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Successors of Prophets are always the pious ones, One who paid back the loans of Prophet PBUHHP and repulsed the enemies of Prophet Muhammad PBUHHP was his successor. As for Hazrat e Abbas a.s, he denied this for two reasons:

1. He himself confessed his inability to carry out the responsibilities as a Successor of Prophet so How dare other came who inherited nothing and called them successors.

2. He was a pious person and witnessed that there was none other than Imam Ali a.s to inherit Prophet PBUHHP.

Secondly, the book which you mentioned about MUrtada Al-Shafi, I have never heard its name before and even if what you say that Prophet said that Allah (SWT) will choose for a leader then it also invalidates that people should not have chosen caliph for themselves as people did and secondly, it on other hand validates that Prophet do have the name as he mentioned about Haroon so who was brother to Prophet as Haroon was to Mosa, it is clear for a layman. :)

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:bismillah:

:salam:

Just my thoughts:

The first narration doesn't seem right (the matn), even if according to the Sunni interpretation of Caliphate / Imamah. Let's for the sake of argument say that it's authentic, then why didn't Prophet S.A.W say that the right of choosing a leader (successor) are for the Ansar / muhajireen as according to the Sunni view? Why did Imam Ali A.S even ask the Prophet S.A.W if he could choose a successor, if according to the Sunni view (the many hadiths that exists in sunni sources), Prophet S.A.W has already previously stated that they should choose a leader for themselves, and that they all should gather under one leader together? Also if this is the case, then this would mean that Imam Ali A.S was greedy for the caliphate as he didn't accept Abu Bakr at the beginning. Didn't Imam Ali A.S know about this? Didn't Imam Ali A.S know that Prophet S.A.W told everyone that they should decide a leader for themselves and giving bayah was obligatory if the majority accepted him? 

Strange isn't it?

 

If I have said anything wrong please correct me and may Allah SWT forgive me.

 

Edited by The Straight Path

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14 hours ago, Irfan1214 said:

Successors of Prophets are always the pious ones, One who paid back the loans of Prophet PBUHHP and repulsed the enemies of Prophet Muhammad PBUHHP was his successor. As for Hazrat e Abbas a.s, he denied this for two reasons:

1. He himself confessed his inability to carry out the responsibilities as a Successor of Prophet so How dare other came who inherited nothing and called them successors.

2. He was a pious person and witnessed that there was none other than Imam Ali a.s to inherit Prophet PBUHHP.

Secondly, the book which you mentioned about MUrtada Al-Shafi, I have never heard its name before and even if what you say that Prophet said that Allah (SWT) will choose for a leader then it also invalidates that people should not have chosen caliph for themselves as people did and secondly, it on other hand validates that Prophet do have the name as he mentioned about Haroon so who was brother to Prophet as Haroon was to Mosa, it is clear for a layman. :)

Just want to know about authenticity of both narrations. SImilar ones are also there in ahlul sunnah books with slight changes.

If these narrations are authentic then this will surely destroy the fact that ghadir was about declaration of caliph or divine appointment of successor. Read the narrations very carefully. And I am sure such narrations are also there in Kitab ul Irshad of Shaikh Mufeed. I remember my reading back in 2014.

Book of sharif Mutadha is very famous work on concept of imamate. Full title of book is Al-Shafi Fi Imamah, total 3 volumns.

And Allah will choose a leader can also be interpreted as via qadr. Good caliph is a blessing and bad caliph is a test. Thats qadr.

For seekers of truth only one authentic narration is enough which also befits within authentic historical facts. Saqifa for example.

 

Edited by Fahad Sani

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8 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

Just my thoughts:

The first narration doesn't seem right (the matn), even if according to the Sunni interpretation of Caliphate / Imamah. Let's for the sake of argument say that it's authentic, then why didn't Prophet S.A.W say that the right of choosing a leader (successor) are for the Ansar / muhajireen as according to the Sunni view? Why did Imam Ali A.S even ask the Prophet S.A.W if he could choose a successor, if according to the Sunni view (the many hadiths that exists in sunni sources), Prophet S.A.W has already previously stated that they should choose a leader for themselves, and that they all should gather under one leader together? Also if this is the case, then this would mean that Imam Ali A.S was greedy for the caliphate as he didn't accept Abu Bakr at the beginning. Didn't Imam Ali A.S know about this? Didn't Imam Ali A.S know that Prophet S.A.W told everyone that they should decide a leader for themselves and giving bayah was obligatory if the majority accepted him? 

Strange isn't it?

 

If I have said anything wrong please correct me and may Allah SWT forgive me.

 

Nothing wrong. Its your interpretation.

18 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

He said. “No, I fear that you will be divided regarding him, as the  children of Israel became divided over Harun, but if Allah knows any  goodness in you, He will choose for you (a leader).

Its in terms of qadr. i.e Abu bakr was chosen and majority accepted. And there was also division i.e saqifa. Later matter was solved. These narrations are correctly fitting in historical facts.

Edited by Fahad Sani

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Here is a similar narration from ahlul sunnah books. which also explains hadith e qirtas, ghadir and saqifa incidents.

Narrated `Abdullah bin `Abbas:

`Ali bin Abu Talib came out of the house of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) during his fatal illness. The people asked, "O Abu Hasan (i.e. `Ali)! How is the health of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) this morning?" `Ali replied, "He has recovered with the Grace of Allah." `Abbas bin `Abdul Muttalib held him by the hand and said to him, "In three days you, by Allah, will be ruled (by somebody else ), And by Allah, I feel that Allah's Apostle will die from this ailment of his, for I know how the faces of the offspring of `Abdul Muttalib look at the time of their death. So let us go to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and ask him who will take over the Caliphate. If it is given to us we will know as to it, and if it is given to somebody else, we will inform him so that he may tell the new ruler to take care of us." `Ali said, "By Allah, if we asked Allah's Apostle for it (i.e. the Caliphate) and he denied it us, the people will never give it to us after that. And by Allah, I will not ask Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) for it." Bukhari 4447.

And from shia source.

18 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

He said. “No, I fear that you will be divided regarding him, as the  children of Israel became divided over Harun, but if Allah knows any  goodness in you, He will choose for you (a leader).

And we see people were divided on this matter. Moreover when Prophet s.a.w.w narrated this hadith it was only Abbas and Ali in the room. And history further shows that later on after the end of banu ummayha it was only banu Abbas and banu Ali who fought for caliphate and remained divided for centuries. Remember the revolts of Zaid bin Ali, Nafs Zakkiyah, Abdullah Aftah and many others from progeny of Imam Ali a.s agaisnt the banu abbas rule. For more details refer Book Firaq ul Shia by 3rd century shia scholar naubakhti.

https://books.google.com.pk/books/about/Shi_a_Sects.html?id=vadKWQplthUC&redir_esc=y

See how history and ahadith are explaining each oher.

Edited by Fahad Sani

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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

Just want to know about authenticity of both narrations. SImilar ones are also there in ahlul sunnah books with slight changes.

If these narrations are authentic then this will surely destroy the fact that ghadir was about declaration of caliph or divine appointment of successor. Read the narrations very carefully. And I am sure such narrations are also there in Kitab ul Irshad of Shaikh Mufeed. I remember my reading back in 2014.

Book of sharif Mutadha is very famous work on concept of imamate. Full title of book is Al-Shafi Fi Imamah, total 3 volumns.

And Allah will choose a leader can also be interpreted as via qadr. Good caliph is a blessing and bad caliph is a test. Thats qadr.

For seekers of truth only one authentic narration is enough which also befits within authentic historical facts. Saqifa for example.

 

Hahahahaha, nothing is destroyed brother as matters are very clear caliphate is for pious not the mistake makers and sinners. If you are still in doubt read in Quran about verse where Allah  (SWT) says that he will make pious as leaders of the world. Read as many books as you want :)

Edited by Irfan1214

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1 minute ago, Irfan1214 said:

Hahahahaha, nothing is destroyed brother as matters are very clear caliphate is for pious not the mistake makers and sinners. If you are still in doubt read in Quran about verse where Allah  (SWT) says that he will make pious as leaders of the world. Read as many books as you want :)

:)

Then why it was given to Adam a.s. Because he repented and accepted his mistake. It is mentioned in Quran not in history books which you can easily deny.

If a person is sinner or have done mistakes, it doesnt mean that he can never be a pious again. He can if he repent and seek forgiveness. If not then non muslim can never be pious ever, as per your logic.

Save him who repenteth and believeth and doth righteous work; as for such, Allah will change their evil deeds to good deeds. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. [25:70]

 

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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

Just want to know about authenticity of both narrations. SImilar ones are also there in ahlul sunnah books with slight changes.

If these narrations are authentic then this will surely destroy the fact that ghadir was about declaration of caliph or divine appointment of successor. Read the narrations very carefully. And I am sure such narrations are also there in Kitab ul Irshad of Shaikh Mufeed. I remember my reading back in 2014.

Book of sharif Mutadha is very famous work on concept of imamate. Full title of book is Al-Shafi Fi Imamah, total 3 volumns.

And Allah will choose a leader can also be interpreted as via qadr. Good caliph is a blessing and bad caliph is a test. Thats qadr.

For seekers of truth only one authentic narration is enough which also befits within authentic historical facts. Saqifa for example.

 

Ghadir will still be for telling you who was Haron of the Prophet of his time.

 

1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

Here is a similar narration from ahlul sunnah books. which also explains hadith e qirtas, ghadir and saqifa incidents.

Narrated `Abdullah bin `Abbas:

`Ali bin Abu Talib came out of the house of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) during his fatal illness. The people asked, "O Abu Hasan (i.e. `Ali)! How is the health of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) this morning?" `Ali replied, "He has recovered with the Grace of Allah." `Abbas bin `Abdul Muttalib held him by the hand and said to him, "In three days you, by Allah, will be ruled (by somebody else ), And by Allah, I feel that Allah's Apostle will die from this ailment of his, for I know how the faces of the offspring of `Abdul Muttalib look at the time of their death. So let us go to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and ask him who will take over the Caliphate. If it is given to us we will know as to it, and if it is given to somebody else, we will inform him so that he may tell the new ruler to take care of us." `Ali said, "By Allah, if we asked Allah's Apostle for it (i.e. the Caliphate) and he denied it us, the people will never give it to us after that. And by Allah, I will not ask Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) for it." Bukhari 4447.

And from shia source.

And we see people were divided on this matter. Moreover when Prophet s.a.w.w narrated this hadith it was only Abbas and Ali in the room. And history further shows that later on after the end of banu ummayha it was only banu Abbas and banu Ali who fought for caliphate and remained divided for centuries. Remember the revolts of Zaid bin Ali, Nafs Zakkiyah, Abdullah Aftah and many others from progeny of Imam Ali a.s agaisnt the banu abbas rule. For more details refer Book Firaq ul Shia by 3rd century shia scholar naubakhti.

https://books.google.com.pk/books/about/Shi_a_Sects.html?id=vadKWQplthUC&redir_esc=y

See how history and ahadith are explaining each oher.

Now, you are trying to divert attention that Banu Abbas and people of Banu Hashem fought becoz of that hadith and that Banu Abbas claimed caliphate becoz they traced their closeness of ancestor hazrat abbas to Prophet.  Let me tell you the people of Banu Abbas raised with the slogan of Revenge of Hussain and with the motive to give caliphate to its rightful heirs holy imams.  So, their slogan was for Hussain and not Abbas and their motive was to give back caliphate to imams. They went back to their promises and deserted Ahle bait like those who deserted prophet after making covenant that Imam Ali was their maula.

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12 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

:)

Then why it was given to Adam a.s. Because he repented and accepted his mistake. It is mentioned in Quran not in history books which you can easily deny.

If a person is sinner or have done mistakes, it doesnt mean that he can never be a pious again. He can if he repent and seek forgiveness. If not then non muslim can never be pious ever, as per your logic.

Save him who repenteth and believeth and doth righteous work; as for such, Allah will change their evil deeds to good deeds. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. [25:70]

 

Adam never went near to tree for which Quran mentions that we prohibited them to go near tree. His astagfar was for his wife. So, he never erred. :)

 

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On 1/22/2017 at 3:07 AM, Fahad Sani said:

Imam Ja'far bin Muhammad Sadiq: ‘When the Messenger of Allah (peace be  upon him) was on his death bed, he called Abbas and Amir al-Muminin,  and then he said to Abbas “O the uncle of Muhammad … you will take the  heritage of Muhammad, pay back his debts and repulse his enemy”. He  replied him saying, "O Messenger of Allah, let my father and mother be  your ransom, I am an old man with many dependants and little wealth,  who can bear the like of your responsibilities?” He lowered his head  for a while and then he said again, “O Abbas, will you take the  heritage of Muhammad, repulse his enemy and pay back his loans?” He  replied as before… He then said “Definitely, I will give it to the one  who will take it and all the responsibilities associated with it.”  Then he said: “O Ali! O brother of Muhammad, will you repulse the  enemy of Muhammad, pay back his loans and take hold of his heritage?  He said, “Yes, let my father and mother be your ransom”. ‘Such is Ali,  my beloved friend’.

Source: Kulayni: Al-Kafi, vol 1 p. 236 from Muhammad bin Hussain and Ali bin Muhammad from Sahl bin Ziyad from Muhammad bin Walid, al- Sirafi from Iban bin Uthman from Abu Abdullah.

As you can see this is an ordinary personal will, not related with Imamate and leadership. The Prophet s.a.w.w has put it, in the beginning before Abbas bin Abd-al-Muttalib r.a, who became fearful of it, but Imam Ali a.s accepted it voluntarily.

There is another will in the works of Sheikh Mufid, from Imam Imam Ali a.s saying that the Prophet s.a.w.w has entrusted it to him before his death. This was a general spiritual and ethical will, and is related to the matters of endowments and charity.

Source: Amali al-Mufid, p. 220 and Mufid: Al-Irshad, p. 188

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9 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Nothing wrong. Its your interpretation.

So as I thought, it sounds strange that Imam Ali A.S wouldn't have known that Prophet S.A.W clearly had "said" that they must do bayah to the person the majority had chosen. If anything, Imam Ali A.S would have known better. 

Anyway I'm sure many would have thought the same when reading it, after a bit of thinking rather than just accepting anything just because it agrees with one's view..

Quote

He said. “No, I fear that you will be divided regarding him, as the  children of Israel became divided over Harun, but if Allah knows any  goodness in you, He will choose for you (a leader).

But when they chose their own leader, everything was as perfect as it could be? Sorry it doesn't sound right, specially since it was Allah SWT who chose Harun A.S for the people as well. The narration seems like a fabrication, and it contradicts the mutawatir hadiths in Shia collections that talk about Allah SWT choosing the Imams A.S, and the hadiths that talk about Imam Ali's A.S right in both Shia and Sunni collections of hadith. Rejecting all of those would be totally wrong, same as Sunnis wouldn't have rejected their hadiths even if there would be other authentic ones that speak in favour of Shias etc. 

 

The problem is that you take Sunni hadiths as a base, and reject everything that would contradict it. No wonder why you would reject authentic hadiths speaking of Imam Ali's A.S right, brother. 

 

May Allah SWT guide us all to the straight path.

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