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Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

1.  From what has been presented from the video by Uthman Al-Khamees, we only see the introduction of his main argument.  The Prophet (saw) made prostration to be valid only when the face (forehead and nose, as stated by Kamal Al-Haydari), palms, knees and toes are in contact with the ground.  If prostration is only to be made upon soil (which means, the main points must come in contact with nothing but soil or anything that sprouts from the earth) then placing a puck-sized object and placing your forehead on it is incomplete prostration.

2.  Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) or his student is nothing compared to the dust on the feet of the Prophet (saw) and he (saw) never forbade anyone from prostrating on mats or even garments.  Also, the Prophet (saw) did not mandate for prostration to be done in the same way as defined by Shias.

3.  Did Kamal Al-Haydari forget that Shia mosques have carpets too?  That too layered!  Every Sunni mosque I have been to, the carpet is installed (in the floor) with varying designs to ensure a straight line during prayers.  Some even have outlines of a prayer rug thereby reserving one unit for one person.  On the other hand, every Shia mosque I have been to has carpet installed on top of which sits a second layer of plush (thick) carpets - with no straight lines - for added cushion and comfort.  Those praying (while in prostration) place their palms and toes on the carpet whereas their knee caps are covered by their garments (resting on the carpet) while only their forehead is planted upon the turbah leaving their nose dangling in mid-air.  That is not the Prophetic prostration.

4.  You consider prostration on paper (grown on trees but processed and turned into paper through human intervention) to be accepted for prostration but not rugs made from cotton (which grows on plants).  Having said all that, rest assured that we think.  We think about the points you raise; we also think about your naivety. 

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On 1/19/2017 at 4:50 PM, onereligion said:

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

1.  From what has been presented from the video by Uthman Al-Khamees, we only see the introduction of his main argument.  The Prophet (saw) made prostration to be valid only when the face (forehead and nose, as stated by Kamal Al-Haydari), palms, knees and toes are in contact with the ground.  If prostration is only to be made upon soil (which means, the main points must come in contact with nothing but soil or anything that sprouts from the earth) then placing a puck-sized object and placing your forehead on it is incomplete prostration.

2.  Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) or his student is nothing compared to the dust on the feet of the Prophet (saw) and he (saw) never forbade anyone from prostrating on mats or even garments.  Also, the Prophet (saw) did not mandate for prostration to be done in the same way as defined by Shias.

3.  Did Kamal Al-Haydari forget that Shia mosques have carpets too?  That too layered!  Every Sunni mosque I have been to, the carpet is installed (in the floor) with varying designs to ensure a straight line during prayers.  Some even have outlines of a prayer rug thereby reserving one unit for one person.  On the other hand, every Shia mosque I have been to has carpet installed on top of which sits a second layer of plush (thick) carpets - with no straight lines - for added cushion and comfort.  Those praying (while in prostration) place their palms and toes on the carpet whereas their knee caps are covered by their garments (resting on the carpet) while only their forehead is planted upon the turbah leaving their nose dangling in mid-air.  That is not the Prophetic prostration.

4.  You consider prostration on paper (grown on trees but processed and turned into paper through human intervention) to be accepted for prostration but not rugs made from cotton (which grows on plants).  Having said all that, rest assured that we think.  We think about the points you raise; we also think about your naivety. 

1. Only your forehead is suppose to touch the earth, not the rest of your body. 

Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri: I saw Allah's Apostle prostrating in mud and water and saw the mark of mud on his forehead.

[Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 1, book 12, no. 798; vol. 3, book 33, no. 244]

2. We prostrate exactly how the prophet did. According to the student of Ibn Taymiyyah in the book Ighathatul Lahfan (which you guys consider it a reliable source), he clearly said the prophet never prostrated on rugs but only on earth. If that's the case than why do sunnis not follow the sunnah of the prophet?

3. Again, only your forehead is to touch the earth, not the rest of your body. It doesn't matter what carpet you pray on as long as your forehead came in contact with the earth like what the prophet did.

4. Carpet is made from polyester. Polyester fibers are formed from a chemical reaction between an acid and alcohol. That is clearly not from the earth. Paper is made from trees which is from the earth, which is why it's not forbidden to prostrate on them. You can clearly see from your own books that the prophet prayed on clay or mud, so why aren't you guys following the sunnah of the prophet?

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1.  Really?  Only your forehead?  Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim both report the Prophet (saw) saying, “I have been commanded to prostrate on seven bones: on the forehead," and he pointed to his nose, “and on the two hands, the two knees and the edges of the two feet (i.e., the toes).”

2.  If you follow the student of Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) then that is quite alright with me.  The Prophet (saw), however, did not mandate anything regarding the rules of sajdah but the prostration the "seven bones".  Since you add a clause to prostration - that it must be done on soil - you leave your prostration incomplete, as per your own innovation.

3.  Already answered!

4.  I did not say carpet.  I said "rugs made from cotton" as in prayer rugs.  Also, garments (made from cotton).  Do you see anything wrong with prostrating on a rug made exclusively from cotton?

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On 1/20/2017 at 8:52 AM, onereligion said:

1.  Really?  Only your forehead?  Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim both report the Prophet (saw) saying, “I have been commanded to prostrate on seven bones: on the forehead," and he pointed to his nose, “and on the two hands, the two knees and the edges of the two feet (i.e., the toes).”

2.  If you follow the student of Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) then that is quite alright with me.  The Prophet (saw), however, did not mandate anything regarding the rules of sajdah but the prostration the "seven bones".  Since you add a clause to prostration - that it must be done on soil - you leave your prostration incomplete, as per your own innovation.

3.  Already answered!

4.  I did not say carpet.  I said "rugs made from cotton" as in prayer rugs.  Also, garments (made from cotton).  Do you see anything wrong with prostrating on a rug made exclusively from cotton?

1. That report doesn't provide details such as what he was prostrating on. Regardless though you're providing me references from sunni ahadith which we do not consider reliable ahadith. The reason why I quoted a narration from Sahih Bukhari about the prophet prostrating on mud is because even in your own books it states it, so why do you guys say its bid'ah?

2. Here are shia ahadith which shows the shias are following the sunnah of the prophet.

1. A group of hadith scholars {muhaddithun} recount the statement of the Prophet (S) in which he defines the earth as the place of his prostration, when he says:

“The (pure) earth has been made for me as a place of prostration and an agent of purification.”
From the word “ja‘ala” {“made”} which is used here to have a legal and legislative sense, meaning (“ordained”), we understand that this issue is a decree ordained by the Divine for the followers of Islam to abide by. This proves the legitimacy of prostration on earth, stone, and some other parts of the ground.

2. A group of narrations verify the fact that the Holy Prophet (S) used to order the Muslims to place their forehead on (pure) earth while prostrating. Umm Salamah, a spouse of the Prophet (S), narrates that the Prophet (S) said:

“Place your face for the sake of Allah on earth.”

There are many more ahadith about this.

4. If cotton is from the earth, than there is no problem in prostrating on it. But we both know that cotton isn't the only thing sunnis prostrate on. I seen sunnis pray on many other things such as regular carpet, asphalt (on the road), tiles and etc. They don't always pray on cotton.

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Our narrations are not binding upon you.  No surprise there!  What is surprising, however, is when you pick-and-choose.  As you rightly pointed out, the narrations do not specify what to prostrate on because the Prophet (saw) never made the same claims you make.  Prostration must occur when the face (forehead and nose), palms, knees and toes come in contact with the ground or floor you stand on.  Plain and simple.

The narration, " The (pure) earth has been made for me as a place of prostration and an agent of purification" is not a command of exclusion but that of inclusion, meaning, the Prophet (saw) made prayer permissible in any and every lawful place (soil, carpet, asphalt, whatever).

Jabir bin Abdullah narrates:

The Messenger of Allah said: I have been given five things which were not given to any of the Prophets before me. These are:

1. Allah made me victorious by inspiring awe (and fear in my enemies) for a distance of one month’s journey.

2. The earth has been made a place of prostration for me, and a place to perform Tayammum.  Thus, my followers can pray wherever (i.e. in any lawful place) they like, when the time of prayer is due.

3. War booty has been made lawful for me.

4. Every Prophet was sent only to his own nation, but I have been sent to all mankind.

5. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection).

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 1.429

"My followers can pray wherever they like" not "my followers must prostrate on clay".

Since we were accused to be the ones who do not think and reflect, check this out:

"Sajdah should be performed on earth, and on those things which are not edible nor worn, and on things which grow from earth (e.g. wood and leaves of trees).  It is not permissible to perform Sajdah on things which are used as food or dress (e.g. wheat, barley and cotton etc.), or on things which are not considered to be parts of the earth (e.g. gold, silver, etc.).  And in the situation of helplessness, asphalt and tar will have preference over other non-allowable things."  taken from: http://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2224/

The Prophet (saw) never forbade his Companions (ra) from covering the ground (upon which they would prostrate) with their garments and prostrate on them.

Having said that, even if we pretend that prostration must be made upon soil, you only fulfill the forehead.  While your nose remains dangling in the air, you fail to meet the requirement for the "seven bones".  In reality, what you are prostrating on is this:

MohrQum1.jpeg

and this (among other variations):

IMG_8013.jpg

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Sahih al bukhari is considered unreliable with many fabrications, atleast to us. We follow the authentic ahadith of the Prophet and the 12 imams, and they never made it permissible to prostrate on anything but the earth. Here are some other examples:

Once the Messenger of Allah saw a person prostrating beside him, with his turban covering his forehead. The Messenger of Allah removed the turban from the person's forehead. `Ayyad ibn `Abd Allah al-Qarashi says: "The Messenger of Allah saw a person prostrating on part of his turban, so he gestured to him to remove (that part of) the turban, pointing to his forehead."

And here is one from Imam as-Sadiq (a): "Prostration on the earth is obligatory while prostrating on a straw mat is a sunnah" 

There are many other ahadith that support this as well. In your sunni book Ighathatul Lahfan, the student of Ibn Taymiyyah clearly says "...And the Messenger of Allah never ever prayed on a rug and neither had a rug been put for him." "...Instead he would pray on Earth, and he sometimes prostrated on clay and he used to pray on a mat." 

Brother @onereligion I didn't make this topic to argue about what we have to prostrate it on, the whole point of this topic was about these two sunni scholars in the video accusing us of doing bid'ah because we prostrate on a soil. There are so many ahadith from the Prophet and the Imams indicating that they only prayed on soil, which is exactly the same method we do, so why would they think it's bid'ah?

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Brother @onereligion I didn't make this topic to argue about what we have to prostrate it on, the whole point of this topic was about these two sunni scholars in the video accusing us of doing bid'ah because we prostrate on a soil. There are so many ahadith from the Prophet and the Imams indicating that they only prayed on soil, which is exactly the same method we do, so why would they think it's bid'ah?

What you consider Sahih Bukhari to be is not an issue.  You are within your rights to believe whatever you want.  Also, my religion comes from Rasulullah (saw), not Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq (ra).

Having said that, there was another discussion I took part in and our Shia brothers had quoted Imam Malik (rah) - if I'm not mistaken - in which he had deemed someone laying a prayer rug in the mosque (before praying) to be a bid'ah.  And then, through learned sources, I found out that what Imam Malik (rah) meant was that one must pray in a mosque the way he or she finds it to be.  The bid'ah is when you see that the mosque is clean and yet you bring your own rug for the sake of convenience or hygiene.  Therefore, by extension, turbah is a bid'ah because you bring it to the mosque (to change the state in which you find the prayer hall) by claiming that it is a necessity.

With that, I am sure if you research what Ibn Taymiyyah's (rah) student really meant - that is, if you were to find that book and read the excerpt entirely - I am sure you would find him saying exactly the opposite of what you make him out to say.

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Once the Messenger of Allah saw a person prostrating beside him, with his turban covering his forehead. The Messenger of Allah removed the turban from the person's forehead. `Ayyad ibn `Abd Allah al-Qarashi says: "The Messenger of Allah saw a person prostrating on part of his turban, so he gestured to him to remove (that part of) the turban, pointing to his forehead."

The Prophet (saw) lifted his turban or removed the man’s turban not because it is not allowed to pray on cloth but because it was preventing his forehead from being on the same level with his nose, palms, knees and toes.  In other words, it wasn't reaching the ground.  That works as an argument against turbah, if you think about it.  Placing your forehead on turbah not only leaves your nose dangling (incomplete prostration) but also places your forehead on a level above your palms, knees and toes.

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On 1/21/2017 at 1:21 AM, onereligion said:

Having said that, even if we pretend that prostration must be made upon soil, you only fulfill the forehead.  While your nose remains dangling in the air, you fail to meet the requirement for the "seven bones".  In reality, what you are prostrating on is this:

Where exactly it says that seven points must be exactly made upon soil?

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On 1/23/2017 at 6:29 PM, onereligion said:

What you consider Sahih Bukhari to be is not an issue.  You are within your rights to believe whatever you want.  Also, my religion comes from Rasulullah (saw), not Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq (ra).

Your religion comes from the Muhammad (saw) and not from Imam Sadiq (as)? You follow ahadith from the sahaba so does that mean your religion comes from the sahaba? What kind of logic is this... I give you a hadith from Imam Sadiq (as) the great great grandson of Muhammad (saw) and you say you only follow the religion of Muhammad (saw) but when someone gives you a hadith from lets say Abu Huraira your quick to follow it? The ahadith from Imam Sadiq (as) aren't rulings he just made up himself, it's the teachings and the sunnah of the prophet, and the religion of Islam. You follow ahadith from the sahaba and people not even close to Muhammad (saw), yet you don't follow ahadith from Imam Sadiq (as) and the other imams who are the prophets own family. That surely doesn't make sense does it? Ali (as), Hassan (as) and Hussien (as) are each individually more closer to Muhammad (saw) then all the Sahabas put together, yet you barely even acknowledge their sayings. If I wanted for example to know your own father better and what he does everyday, do I go ask your fathers friends or do I ask his own family who knows him best? To us, following the Prophets family is more logical then following the sahaba of the prophet (some of the sahaba aren't even as good as you think they are, but that's a different discussion).

On 1/23/2017 at 6:29 PM, onereligion said:

Having said that, there was another discussion I took part in and our Shia brothers had quoted Imam Malik (rah) - if I'm not mistaken - in which he had deemed someone laying a prayer rug in the mosque (before praying) to be a bid'ah.  And then, through learned sources, I found out that what Imam Malik (rah) meant was that one must pray in a mosque the way he or she finds it to be.  The bid'ah is when you see that the mosque is clean and yet you bring your own rug for the sake of convenience or hygiene.  Therefore, by extension, turbah is a bid'ah because you bring it to the mosque (to change the state in which you find the prayer hall) by claiming that it is a necessity.

Now you just contradicted yourself. If bringing your own rug or turbah to the mosque is bid'ah, than how in the universe did Muhammad (saw) pray in a mosque if he only prostrates on the earth? We both agree that Muhammad (saw) only prostrated on mud, clay and khumra as what the sunni and shia ahadith state, so if bringing something into the mosque is bid'ah than are you accusing Muhammad (saw) of doing bid'ah (even though that's impossible because than that would be a sunnah)? Or are you saying Muhammad (saw) never prayed in a mosque? Surely Muhammad (saw) needed to pray on the earth, so he would bring his own piece of clay or khumra (Like what we do) and prostrate on it. Look at this below hadith below:

The Prophet said to his wife Umm Salma, "Bring me the Khumra from the mosque." The word Khumra means a small piece of chatai made from palm leaf, on which only the head could be rested when prostrating. - `Anwar-Ul-Lughat Chap 7, P.118   (This is a sunni book by the way). Woah the Prophet is doing bid'ah??

and lastly, here is a sunni scholar Maulana Zamankhan saying "I maintain that by this Hadith it is Sunnat to keep a sajdagah. Those who forbid it and call it the way of the Rafizites (shiites) are wrong. To practice this sunnat, I often perform my prostrations on a fan made from palm leaf, and I do not care about the criticism of the ignorant. We are concerned only with the sunnah of the Prophet (saw), regardless of whether they call it the way of the Rafizites or the Kharijites. Let them rave about it."

On 1/23/2017 at 7:21 PM, onereligion said:

The Prophet (saw) lifted his turban or removed the man’s turban not because it is not allowed to pray on cloth but because it was preventing his forehead from being on the same level with his nose, palms, knees and toes.  In other words, it wasn't reaching the ground.  That works as an argument against turbah, if you think about it.  Placing your forehead on turbah not only leaves your nose dangling (incomplete prostration) but also places your forehead on a level above your palms, knees and toes.

How do you know what the Prophet's intention was when he told him to remove his turban? Now you are just assuming facts to fit your own arguments. All we know from that hadith is that the Prophet told the man to remove his turban and he pointed to his forehead. We know the prophet only prostrates on earth, so that hadith is most likely referring to what that person was prostrating on and not about his nose dangling.

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15 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Where exactly it says that seven points must be exactly made upon soil?

Way to strait-jacket but failed, bro!  The Prophet (saw) said that seven points (or bones) must partake in prostration.  There is no mention of soil.  However, even if we assume that it must be on soil, your prostration is still incomplete as per the following narration.

Narrated Ibn Abbas (ra): The Prophet (saw) was ordered (by Allah) to prostrate on seven parts and not to tuck up the clothes or hair (while praying).  Those parts are: the forehead (along with the tip of nose), both hands, both knees, and (toes of) both feet.

Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:  The Prophet said, “I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bones i.e. on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose, both hands, both knees and the toes of both feet and not to gather the clothes or the hair.”

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Your religion comes from the Muhammad (saw) and not from Imam Sadiq (as)? You follow ahadith from the sahaba so does that mean your religion comes from the sahaba?

What kind of logic is this... I give you a hadith from Imam Sadiq (as) the great great grandson of Muhammad (saw) and you say you only follow the religion of Muhammad (saw) but when someone gives you a hadith from lets say Abu Huraira your quick to follow it?

To us, following the Prophets family is more logical then following the sahaba of the prophet (some of the sahaba aren't even as good as you think they are, but that's a different discussion).

Now you just contradicted yourself. If bringing your own rug or turbah to the mosque is bid'ah, than how in the universe did Muhammad (saw) pray in a mosque if he only prostrates on the earth?

The Prophet said to his wife Umm Salma, "Bring me the Khumra from the mosque." The word Khumra means a small piece of chatai made from palm leaf, on which only the head could be rested when prostrating. - `Anwar-Ul-Lughat Chap 7, P.118   (This is a sunni book by the way). Woah the Prophet is doing bid'ah??

How do you know what the Prophet's intention was when he told him to remove his turban? Now you are just assuming facts to fit your own arguments.

- The narration regarding the rules of prostration comes from Ibn Abbas (ra) who is also from the family of the Prophet (saw).

- Although outside the scope of our discussion, Abu Hurayrah (ra) learned directly from the Prophet (saw).  Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq (ra) was about five generations removed.  However, this is not even a discussion regarding Abu Hurayrah (ra) and Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq (ra) (the latter's nickname bears his truthfulness).  It is about an innovated practice which you wish to legitimize by attributing it to Imam Jaffar (ra).

- Really?  Well, Ibn Abbas (ra) is from the family of the Prophet (saw) and he was alive at the time of the Prophet (saw).  Therefore, by logic, his words must be valued higher than the words of Imam Jaffar (ra).  Why, then, do you not follow the criteria which you have set yourself?

- You are inserting your own misunderstandings in my response.  I said one must pray in a mosque the way he or she finds it to be (provided that it is visibly clean).  As soon as you lay down a rug or place a turbah on the masjid carpet or floor, you have committed bid'ah.  However, let us not lose sight of the context.  What I mentioned - regarding laying down a prayer rug in the mosque on top of what already exists there, carpet or soil, being bid'ah - was the opinion of Imam Malik (rah) (if I remember the right scholar).

- Truly, you are in such a rush that you're borderline blind.  The Prophet (saw) asked Umm Salama (ra) to bring him a khumra FROM the mosque, not bring him a khumra to the mosque.  Having khumra at the mosque is not bid'ah.  However, entering the same mosque and laying down your own rug or khumra on top of the khumra already covering the floor of the mosque is bid'ah, according to Imam Malik (rah).  Once again, Imam Malik (rah) opined that one should pray in a mosque the way he or she finds it to be (unless he or she detects najasa or something).

- Lastly, while I do not recall Zamankhan being an authority over me, we know our narrations so our scholars know the intention why the Prophet (saw) asked the man to remove his turban.  We do not blindly narrate things without knowing the ins-and-outs of them.  It is unfortunate that our narrations are presented to you to regurgitate blindly; we, on the other hand, practice transparency and learn the context of narrations.

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The forehead is directly above the eyebrows and the nose starts just below the lowest eyebrow line. Makes it perfectly possible to be ''prostrated'' on all 7 bones as your hadith, if you use a small turbah (there are turbahs as big as your entire face but whatever). So what are you even discussing about? We don't leave our nose up in the air. And if someone does; it's because of their ignorance, acts out of ignorance are forgiven.

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I remember having this conversation on the 12er site with @onereligion

First issue: 7 points of prostration. 

For Shias the 7 points are forehead, palm * 2, knees * 2, toes * 2 = 7
For sunnis, the seven points are forehead, nose, palm * 2, knees * 2, toes * 2 = 8 but they call is 7

Leaving basic math aside....

Second Issue: On what material is prostration allowed

Shias: naturally occurring
Sunnis: everything

Third Issue: Prostration on Clay tablets

Shia: permissible
Sunni: permissible

Fourth Issue: Why clay tablets?

Shia: Prophet did it.
Sunni: Don’t care if the Prophet did it, why do you do it?
Shia: Sunnah?
Sunni: So why do you have names on it? Are you secretly praying on them?
Shia: no, we pray on the flip side. Shouldn’t do sujood on any writing
Sunni: Then why don’t you ut all 7 (8) points on clay tablets?
Shia: Because prostration is only complete when the forehead touches the ground. Moreover, the hadith point out the Prophet ensuring his head touched the mud; other points not specific.

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On 1/24/2017 at 4:13 PM, onereligion said:

- The narration regarding the rules of prostration comes from Ibn Abbas (ra) who is also from the family of the Prophet (saw).

I wasn't comparing Imam Sadiq (as) with Ibn Abbas, I said you guys tend to follow the sahaba a lot more then the Prophet's (saw) family, which is illogical.

On 1/24/2017 at 4:13 PM, onereligion said:

- You are inserting your own misunderstandings in my response.  I said one must pray in a mosque the way he or she finds it to be (provided that it is visibly clean).  As soon as you lay down a rug or place a turbah on the masjid carpet or floor, you have committed bid'ah.  However, let us not lose sight of the context.  What I mentioned - regarding laying down a prayer rug in the mosque on top of what already exists there, carpet or soil, being bid'ah - was the opinion of Imam Malik (rah) (if I remember the right scholar).

You're still dodging the question... the floor of the mosques in the Prophet's days had carpet, 'visibly clean' and 'the way he or she finds it to be' just like you said, so how did the Prophet pray in the mosque if he only prostrates on clay or khumra? Logically speaking, he must have brought his own piece of clay or khumra and added it on the carpet to prostrate on right? So please explain to me how we are doing bid'ah when it's exactly what the Prophet did.. you're seriously not making sense here buddy.

On 1/24/2017 at 4:13 PM, onereligion said:

- Truly, you are in such a rush that you're borderline blind.  The Prophet (saw) asked Umm Salama (ra) to bring him a khumra FROM the mosque, not bring him a khumra to the mosque.  Having khumra at the mosque is not bid'ah.  However, entering the same mosque and laying down your own rug or khumra on top of the khumra already covering the floor of the mosque is bid'ah, according to Imam Malik (rah).  Once again, Imam Malik (rah) opined that one should pray in a mosque the way he or she finds it to be (unless he or she detects najasa or something).

What is a khumra doing in the mosque if you can't pray on it LOL. You are trying so hard to prove to us we're wrong, but you keep contradicting yourself, it's starting to get funny. With all the evidence I showed you, I don't know how it's still so hard for you to understand the simple fact that our prostration is exactly the sunnah of the Prophet.

 

On 1/24/2017 at 4:13 PM, onereligion said:

- Really?  Well, Ibn Abbas (ra) is from the family of the Prophet (saw) and he was alive at the time of the Prophet (saw).  Therefore, by logic, his words must be valued higher than the words of Imam Jaffar (ra).  Why, then, do you not follow the criteria which you have set yourself?

Because Imam Sadiq (as) is infallible and Ibn Abbas is not. 

Imam as-Sadiq (as): "Prostration on the earth is obligatory while prostrating on a straw mat is a sunnah"  You shouldn't ignore this hadith, because this also came from his elders, like his father Imam Al-Baqr (as), and Imam Zaynu'l-Abidin (as), and Imam Hussien (as), and Imam Hassan (as), and Imam Ali (as) who is the cousin and closest companion ever to Muhammed (saw) and the husband of his beloved daughter. Ignoring this hadith is a shame.

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5 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

First issue: 7 points of prostration. For Shias the 7 points are forehead, palm * 2, knees * 2, toes * 2 = 7
 

For sunnis, the seven points are forehead, nose, palm * 2, knees * 2, toes * 2 = 8 but they call is 7

 

Leaving basic math aside....

 

Shias: naturally occurring
Sunnis: everything

 

Third Issue: Prostration on Clay tablets

Shia: permissible
Sunni: permissible

 

- Alhamdulilah, you admit that Shias have seven points for prostration.  So how many of these points come in contact with the turbah?  Only one!  Hence, your prostration is invalid.  Thank you!

- The Prophet (saw), not Sunnis, mentioned "seven bones" and when mentioning forehead, he (saw) also pointed to his nose.  In support of their claim, Al-Islam https://www.al-islam.org/shiism-sunnism-ayatullah-sayyid-muhammad-ridha-mudarrisi-yazdi/prostration-tradition-prophet-and quotes the following narrations:

"The Prophet (a.s) used to make his forehead and nose touch the earth in prostration".

"I saw the Prophet (a.s), when prostrating himself, place his forehead and his nose on the earth".

And again, the same narration from Abu Humayad: “I saw the Prophet (a.s) prostrating himself on the earth putting his forehead and nose on it.”

So Al-Islam finds no fault with our math; maybe you can teach them basic math too or retract your nonsense.

- Again, the Prophet (saw) said the following which Al-Islam quoted.  "The Prophet (a.s): The earth is set as the place for my prostration (masjid) and as cleaner".  With the exception of any place filthy or forbidden, your prayer is accepted anywhere.  That is our stance.  The Shia stance is that they know better than the Prophet (saw).

- Which Sunni scholar has deemed prostration upon clay tablets to be acceptable?  Clay tablets that leave your nose dangling bearing inscriptions such as, "Ya Fatima Az-Zahra" or "Ya Ali"?

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I wasn't comparing Imam Sadiq (as) with Ibn Abbas, I said you guys tend to follow the sahaba a lot more then the Prophet's (saw) family, which is illogical.

You're still dodging the question... the floor of the mosques in the Prophet's days had carpet, 'visibly clean' and 'the way he or she finds it to be' just like you said, so how did the Prophet pray in the mosque if he only prostrates on clay or khumra?

Logically speaking, he must have brought his own piece of clay or khumra and added it on the carpet to prostrate on right? So please explain to me how we are doing bid'ah when it's exactly what the Prophet did.. you're seriously not making sense here buddy.

What is a khumra doing in the mosque if you can't pray on it LOL.

 

Because Imam Sadiq (as) is infallible and Ibn Abbas is not.

- Ibn Abbas (ra) was from the family of the Prophet (saw) and a Sahabi.  In this case, you had to eat your own words.

- Dodging the question?  Wallaahi, you Shias have no integrity.  I brought up the case of Imam Malik (rah) to show you that you simply regurgitate what you hear from your pulpits.  You must fact-check before your spew it out.  All Imam Malik (rah) said was that you must pray in a mosque the way you find it to be. 

The Prophet (saw) - without getting into whether or not the narration you have shared is authentic or weak - asked Umm Salama (ra) to bring him khumra from the mosque.  How does that prove your point? 

- Logically speaking?  Who said anything about the Prophet (saw) having "brought his own piece of clay or khumra and added it on the carpet to prostrate on"?  All the narration says that he (saw) asked his wife to bring him a khumra from the mosque.  According to Imam Malik (rah) - to help you better understand his opinion - if someone was to lay down a rug or khumra on top of the khumra found in the mosque, it is bid'ah.  I hope you understand that point because I know my Shia brothers dance around a point till they break a leg.

- Did I say that it is impermissible to pray on khumra?  Our is a religion of inclusion; yours is exclusion.  You exclude everything from prostration, save a few things, whereas we - in accordance to Sunnah - believe that the entire earth (except the few forbidden places) is made as a place of worship.

- Imam Jaffar (ra) is not infallible.  This is your misunderstanding and if you cite Ayat Tatheer then I hope you are ready to take the words of none other than Imam Jaffar (ra) himself of who (in an authentic Shia narration) said that "rijs" (as mentioned in the verse) means "doubt".  In other words, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى removed the doubts of the Imams (ra) - according to your own narration.  Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى did not confer infallibility upon them.  And in case you disagree with this explanation of the verse, I will bring you your own scholars condemning the act of explaining the Qur'an in a way that does not align with the words of the Imams (ra).

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6 minutes ago, onereligion said:

- Dodging the question?  Wallaahi, you Shias have no integrity.  I brought up the case of Imam Malik (rah) to show you that you simply regurgitate what you hear from your pulpits.  You must fact-check before your spew it out.  All Imam Malik (rah) said was that you must pray in a mosque the way you find it to be. 

Why would I follow the teachings of Imam Malik? He supposedly was a student of Imam Sadiq (as), if he said it's bid'ah than he isn't following his teacher.

 

8 minutes ago, onereligion said:

The Prophet (saw) - without getting into whether or not the narration you have shared is authentic or weak - asked Umm Salama (ra) to bring him khumra from the mosque.  How does that prove your point? 

 What are khumras doing in the mosque in the first place, have you asked yourself that? They obviously were used IN the mosque because why else would they be inside it. If it's bid'ah to prostrate on it inside a mosque than why are they kept inside the mosque?

 

12 minutes ago, onereligion said:

- Logically speaking?  Who said anything about the Prophet (saw) having "brought his own piece of clay or khumra and added it on the carpet to prostrate on"?  All the narration says that he (saw) asked his wife to bring him a khumra from the mosque.  According to Imam Malik (rah) - to help you better understand his opinion - if someone was to lay down a rug or khumra on top of the khumra found in the mosque, it is bid'ah.  I hope you understand that point because I know my Shia brothers dance around a point till they break a leg.

You are having a hard time understanding this. The Prophet ONLY prostrates on clay or khumra, as what the ahadith state. Therefore if the Prophet wants to pray inside the mosque that has carpet "the way you find it to be", what shall he prostrate on than? You said to prostrate on khumra or clay inside a mosque is bid'ah, so how did the prophet pray inside the mosque if he doesn't prostrate directly on carpet? You see your contradiction? So logically speaking, when the Prophet wanted to pray in the mosque, he prostrated on khumra or a clay.

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Once again, you can perfectly fit your nose and your forehead on a small turbah, let alone a big one. I don't see why this discussion is still going on. It seems that you're just hiding a deeper intention here because of your twisted heart that can't take it why we specifically use the clay of Karbala in remembrance of Husayn  (as) with added words of tasbeeh on them to please our Rabb.

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12 hours ago, onereligion said:

Way to strait-jacket but failed, bro!  The Prophet (saw) said that seven points (or bones) must partake in prostration.  There is no mention of soil.  However, even if we assume that it must be on soil, your prostration is still incomplete as per the following narration.

Narrated Ibn Abbas (ra): The Prophet (saw) was ordered (by Allah) to prostrate on seven parts and not to tuck up the clothes or hair (while praying).  Those parts are: the forehead (along with the tip of nose), both hands, both knees, and (toes of) both feet.

Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:  The Prophet said, “I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bones i.e. on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose, both hands, both knees and the toes of both feet and not to gather the clothes or the hair.”

Calm down, it is just an question I was curious to ask, I'm not trying to mock your religion. I understand that the definition of sajdah is that the seven points must to meet the ground, but why it is necessary needed to all be touched the soil  at same time? What is the relevance of that hadith, when I already know that sajdah require 7 parts to touch the ground?

There was one Sunni who said the same thing that if you want to complete the sajdah, you need to touch the seven parts in soil, not just forehead or forehead and nose. 

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10 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I remember having this conversation on the 12er site with @onereligion

First issue: 7 points of prostration. 

 

For Shias the 7 points are forehead, palm * 2, knees * 2, toes * 2 = 7
For sunnis, the seven points are forehead, nose, palm * 2, knees * 2, toes * 2 = 8 but they call is 7

 

Leaving basic math aside....

 

Second Issue: On what material is prostration allowed

 

Shias: naturally occurring
Sunnis: everything

 

Third Issue: Prostration on Clay tablets

 

Shia: permissible
Sunni: permissible

 

Fourth Issue: Why clay tablets?

 

Shia: Prophet did it.
Sunni: Don’t care if the Prophet did it, why do you do it?
Shia: Sunnah?
Sunni: So why do you have names on it? Are you secretly praying on them?
Shia: no, we pray on the flip side. Shouldn’t do sujood on any writing
Sunni: Then why don’t you ut all 7 (8) points on clay tablets?
Shia: Because prostration is only complete when the forehead touches the ground. Moreover, the hadith point out the Prophet ensuring his head touched the mud; other points not specific.

 

The frontal bone is a bone in the human skull. The bone consists of three portions. These are the squamous part, the orbital part, and the nasal part, making up the bony part of the forehead, part of the bony orbital cavity holding the eye, and part of the bony part of the nose respectively.

forehead-1 (including nose)

2 palms

2 knees

2 toes

= 7 Sunni 

so Shias don't think nasal bone isn't part of forehead? Cos adding nose will equal 8?

 

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10 hours ago, onereligion said:

- Alhamdulilah, you admit that Shias have seven points for prostration.  So how many of these points come in contact with the turbah?  Only one!  Hence, your prostration is invalid.  Thank you!

errr, the 7 points were never an issue.

The only issue is the 8th point - the nose which is a cartilage and not a bone...at least the part that touches to ground.

Now, prostration is only complete when the forehead touches the ground and hence its the forehead that touches the clay.

10 hours ago, onereligion said:

"The Prophet (a.s) used to make his forehead and nose touch the earth in prostration".

"I saw the Prophet (a.s), when prostrating himself, place his forehead and his nose on the earth".

And again, the same narration from Abu Humayad: “I saw the Prophet (a.s) prostrating himself on the earth putting his forehead and nose on it.”

So Al-Islam finds no fault with our math; maybe you can teach them basic math too or retract your nonsense.

- Again, the Prophet (saw) said the following which Al-Islam quoted.  "The Prophet (a.s): The earth is set as the place for my prostration (masjid) and as cleaner".  With the exception of any place filthy or forbidden, your prayer is accepted anywhere.  That is our stance.  The Shia stance is that they know better than the Prophet (saw).

- Which Sunni scholar has deemed prostration upon clay tablets to be acceptable?  Clay tablets that leave your nose dangling bearing inscriptions such as, "Ya Fatima Az-Zahra" or "Ya Ali"?

again, this issue is not touching the nose itself which most people do. 

Did you read the narrations you quoted - earth is to be prostrated on, not carpet or cloth.

We can debate the nose being wajib for prostration all day long but at least we get the forehead on clay done. Sunnis dont even do that.

5 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

The frontal bone is a bone in the human skull. The bone consists of three portions. These are the squamous part, the orbital part, and the nasal part, making up the bony part of the forehead, part of the bony orbital cavity holding the eye, and part of the bony part of the nose respectively.

forehead-1 (including nose)

2 palms

2 knees

2 toes

= 7 Sunni 

so Shias don't think nasal bone isn't part of forehead? Cos adding nose will equal 8?

 

brother - does your nasal bone touch the ground during sujood? No it doesn't. Your cartilage does.

Is touching the nose for sujood wajib in all Sunni madhabs? I am fairly certain I had pointed to @onereligion that not all Sunni madhabs have the nose requirement. Can you confirm?

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4 hours ago, MuhammedAli said:

Noob question: If the point is to copy the prophet, wouldn't it be more logical to prostrate on clay from Makkah/Madina instead of Karbala?

Saudis own that land, you think they would let us take their soil so we can prostrate on it?

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Why would I follow the teachings of Imam Malik?

What are khumras doing in the mosque in the first place, have you asked yourself that?

If it's bid'ah to prostrate on it inside a mosque than why are they kept inside the mosque?

You are having a hard time understanding this.

The Prophet ONLY prostrates on clay or khumra, as what the ahadith state.

Therefore if the Prophet wants to pray inside the mosque that has carpet "the way you find it to be", what shall he prostrate on than? You said to prostrate on khumra or clay inside a mosque is bid'ah, so how did the prophet pray inside the mosque if he doesn't prostrate directly on carpet?  You see your contradiction? So logically speaking, when the Prophet wanted to pray in the mosque, he prostrated on khumra or a clay.

- No one asked you to follow the teachings of Imam Malik (rah).  I was only pointing to one of the many blunders by our Shia brothers (that I have came across) in which they quote someone thinking it reaffirms their position when it actually negates it. 

- Nothing wrong with khumras in the mosque.  Or carpets, or rugs!  The issue is when you bring your own rug to spread out on whatever is inside the mosque.  That, according to Imam Malik (rah) (if I'm not mistaken the scholar) is bid'ah.  The bigger issue is when Shias quote him without understanding his position, much like how you have (blindly) quoted the student of Ibn Taymiyyah (rah).

- Pretty sure we have identified who has a hard time understanding what (hint: see my above points).

- ....but the Prophet (saw) never prevented anyone from also prostrating on their garments.  Then how can you, or Ayatollah Sistani, deem anything that can be worn to be unacceptable for prostration?

- Seriously, playing dumb to offer counter-rebuttal looks bad.  At the time of the Prophet (saw), in light of the narration you have presented, the mosque floor was covered with khumra (at least in that particular situation) and there is no issues with that.  The issue is when Shias quote blindly - either from Imam Malik (rah) or the student of Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) - without understanding their position.  In the case of former, you pray in a mosque as you find it.  If the floor has carpet, you pray on the carpet and if there is khumra, you prostrate upon it.  What you do not do, according to Imam Malik (rah), is lay out your own khumra on top of whatever is inside the mosque.  Therefore, even placing turbah on top of whatever is inside the mosque (carpet, rug, khumra, whatever) is bid'ah.....if only naive Shias knew that before quoting him.

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13 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

errr, the 7 points were never an issue.

The only issue is the 8th point - the nose which is a cartilage and not a bone...at least the part that touches to ground.

Now, prostration is only complete when the forehead touches the ground and hence its the forehead that touches the clay.

Did you read the narrations you quoted - earth is to be prostrated on, not carpet or cloth.

We can debate the nose being wajib for prostration all day long but at least we get the forehead on clay done. Sunnis dont even do that.

 

- The seven points is quite an issue.  You say our math is wrong; I say your prostration, according to your own set standards, is incorrect because you do not bring your palms, knees and toes to come in contact with soil (or whatever comes from earth).

- The Prophet (saw) mentioned "seven bones" and when he (saw) pronounced the forehead as one, he (saw) also included the nose in it.  If you see him in the Hereafter, you can inform him that his math and science (cartilage not bone) was off, naudhibillahi min dhalik.

- Prostration, according to the Sunnah, is when your forehead (including nose), palms, knees and toes come in contact with the ground.  Omitting one invalidates your prostration.

- I read the narrations.  I am waiting for you to understand them holistically.

- As mentioned, omitting one part is the same as performing an invalid prostration.  Your nose remains dangling while your palms, knees and toes are nowhere on the turbah.  You make your own innovations that contradict your own practice.  That is the joke that apparently isn't going over with most of you!

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2 hours ago, onereligion said:

- Nothing wrong with khumras in the mosque.  Or carpets, or rugs!  The issue is when you bring your own rug to spread out on whatever is inside the mosque.  That, according to Imam Malik (rah) (if I'm not mistaken the scholar) is bid'ah.  The bigger issue is when Shias quote him without understanding his position, much like how you have (blindly) quoted the student of Ibn Taymiyyah (rah).

- ....but the Prophet (saw) never prevented anyone from also prostrating on their garments.  Then how can you, or Ayatollah Sistani, deem anything that can be worn to be unacceptable for prostration?

Oh so you listen to Imam Malik but you don't listen to his teacher Imam Sadiq (as) who is more knowledgeable? Either Imam Malik never said that or he isn't following the teachings of his teacher Imam sadiq (as). Imam sadiq (as) clearly says:  "Prostration is only allowed on the earth or things that are from the earth, except those things which can be worn or consumed." And before you say 'my religion comes from the Prophet (saw) not Imam sadiq (as)', this is what Imam sadiq (as) also said "I prefer that he prostrates on the earth. The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) used to like to place his forehead on the earth. I like for you what the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) used to like.". As you can see, everything Imam sadiq (as) narrates is from the sunnah of the prophet, but instead you give me random rulings from a student of the Imam.

 

2 hours ago, onereligion said:

- Seriously, playing dumb to offer counter-rebuttal looks bad.  At the time of the Prophet (saw), in light of the narration you have presented, the mosque floor was covered with khumra (at least in that particular situation) and there is no issues with that.  The issue is when Shias quote blindly - either from Imam Malik (rah) or the student of Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) - without understanding their position.  In the case of former, you pray in a mosque as you find it.  If the floor has carpet, you pray on the carpet and if there is khumra, you prostrate upon it.  What you do not do, according to Imam Malik (rah), is lay out your own khumra on top of whatever is inside the mosque.  Therefore, even placing turbah on top of whatever is inside the mosque (carpet, rug, khumra, whatever) is bid'ah.....if only naive Shias knew that before quoting him.

Do you know what a khumra is or what it's used for? This is a khumra right here, it is not made to cover the flooring of mosques, it was used by the Prophet as an added layer on top of what was already on the floor. Stop making excuses to justify your absurd bid'ah ruling. This sunni hadith says: "At the time of the Prophet, carpets did exist and if the Prophet (pbuh) wished, he could have prayed on a carpet or laid the mosque's floor with carpet. However, this never happened." (Mosnad Imam Ahmad, 6:58). You can clearly see even from your own hadiths, the Prophet never allowed carpet in the mosques because he didn't want people to prostrate on it. You sunnis are the ones that are doing bid'ah not us, you are doing the opposite of what the Prophet did. Here I'l even show you another hadith from your own books, "We were in the mosque and the roof of the mosque was made of date palm branches so that we could not see up into the sky. One day it rained heavily. The Prophet (pbuh) led the prayers with us, so much so that I saw the marks of the mud on the forehead of the Prophet (pbuh)..." (Bukhari, 2:386).  As you can see, his clay that he was using inside the mosque that was on top of the existing floor got wet, so it showed mud stains on his forehead.

What more evidence do you need????? Are you that stubborn or your brain just can't comprehend logic properly? Anyone with a rational mind would have understood by now. It's exactly what P.Ease said, how can this discussion still be going on when the truth is so clear...

 

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1 hour ago, P. Ease said:

As far as the maliki fiqh goes, you won't find any old/ancient mosques in morocco that have carpets in them. All sand, clay or wood. The modern mosques all have carpets tho.

Not only that but it's pretty evident that the Prophet placed khumra or clay on top of the existing floor to prostrate on, but according to @onereligion and a student of Imam Sadiq (as) it's bid'ah lol.

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Oh so you listen to Imam Malik but you don't listen to his teacher Imam Sadiq (as) who is more knowledgeable?

And before you say 'my religion comes from the Prophet (saw) not Imam sadiq (as)

Do you know what a khumra is or what it's used for? This is a khumra right here, it is not made to cover the flooring of mosques, it was used by the Prophet as an added layer on top of what was already on the floor.

Stop making excuses to justify your absurd bid'ah ruling. This sunni hadith says: "At the time of the Prophet, carpets did exist and if the Prophet (pbuh) wished, he could have prayed on a carpet or laid the mosque's floor with carpet. However, this never happened." (Mosnad Imam Ahmad, 6:58).

What more evidence do you need?????

- For the last time, I am not making a case for Imam Malik (rah) over Imam Jaffar (ra) or vice-versa.  I am exposing your ignorance when you quote scholars - whether Imam Malik (rah) or the student of Ibn Taymiyyah (rah) - without fully understanding their position.  On the surface, it appears as though they are saying what you (Shias) believe; if you dig deeper, you find that their rulings pose serious problems from your practices.

- I say my religion comes from the Prophet (saw) because the Qur'an commands me to obey and follow him, not "12 infallibles (ra)".  If you have a problem with my stance, you've to take it up with Qur'an and Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.  The Prophet (saw) prostrated on earth (soil), khumra, bedding and he (saw) never forbade anyone from prostrating on their garments.  The Prophet (saw) also mandated that prostration has seven points.  If you want to declare our prostration invalid for not prostrating on soil, I say that you fail to meet your own concocted standards because prostration has seven points and you only satisfy one point (more like half because forehead and nose are teamed as one of the "seven bones" and in your case, your forehead rests on turbah while your nose remains dangling).

- There is no issue or contention with khumra or its use.  The Prophet (saw) could cover the floor of the mosque with whatever or leave it uncovered.  We follow what the Prophet (saw) did and you will see in a bit.  Before that, I wish to state that what you are doing is splitting hair and I am at fault for bringing up the case of Imam Malik (rah).  All Imam Malik (rah) was saying - and I hope you get it this time because you seem to be hopelessly unintelligent - was that if you come to a mosque, you pray as you find the mosque to be.  This ruling is for us in light of the Prophetic examples.  Applying this to the Prophet (saw) - because you want to show inconsistency between the Prophet (saw) and Imam Malik (rah) - is ludicrous and quite pathetic on your part.

Now for our proofs from Sahih Bukhari:

Abu Sa’eed Al Khudri narrates: The Messenger of Allah used to practice Itikaf (in the mosque), in the middle third of Ramadan. After the twentieth night, he used to return home on the twenty-first, and those who were in Itikaf with him would return to their homes as well. In Ramadan, in which he practiced Itikaf, he would pray the night prayers on the night in which he returned home, and then address the people, instructing them as Allah commanded him. He said, “I used to practice Itikaf for these ten days (i.e. the middle third of Ramadan), but I now intend to stay in Itikaf for the last ten days. Whoever was in Itikaf with me should stay at his place of seclusion. I have certainly been shown (the date of) this Night (of Qadr), but I have forgotten it. Search for it in the odd nights of the last ten days (of Ramadan). I also saw myself (in a dream) prostrating in mud and water.” On the twenty-first night, the sky was covered with clouds and it rained, and the rainwater started leaking through the roof of the mosque onto the praying place of the Prophet. With my own eyes, I saw the Prophet, upon completion of the morning prayer, leaving (the mosque) with his face covered with mud and water.

Hazrat Maimuna said: The Messenger of Allah used to pray on a Khumra (a palm leaf mat large enough to place one’s face, while in prostration).

Narrated Anas bin Malik: We used to pray with the Prophet in scorching heat, and if someone of us could not put his face on the earth (because of the heat) then he would spread his clothes and prostrate over them.

From the above three narrations, we can conclude that Muslims can pray on soil, khumra or clothing as they were okayed by the Prophet (saw).  Again, who validated these three options (among many other options)?  The Prophet (saw)!  

Regarding Imam Malik (rah), he stated that one should pray in a mosque "as is".  If the mosque has no carpet, do not bring your own rug; consider it clean and just pray on it.  If it has carpet, do not place another rug on it with the doubt that the carpet (in the mosque) maybe unclean.

The issue is not covering the floor of the mosque.  The issue is that you should consider a mosque to be clean.  Why else would you bring your own prayer rug from home if not for hygienic reasons?  Therefore, Imam Malik (rah) ruled against it.  Now Shias, like you have blindly used another scholar, make taqleed and present Imam Malik's (rah) ruling to make it appear as though he validated the practice of Shias.  In reality, his ruling invalidates the Shia practice (though that was not his intention) because when you place a turbah over carpet or prayer rug (as you do at your mosques and homes), you are saying that the rug is essentially najis or unworthy of your prostration whereas the soil from Karbala is pure and clean.  The turbah from Karbala takes precedence over your local mosque.

By the way, I keep saying Imam Malik (rah)...may Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى forgive me if it was another scholar that a Shia brother quoted but I clearly remember how awkward it was for him once I gave him the scholar's complete ruling.

- As for your reference from "Mosnad" Ahmed, I can tell by the spelling that it was quoted from some Iranian website or individual and I have found it no where but on Shia websites.  That is sufficient for me to know the status of that narration.

- I do not need any evidence from you.  I am quite convinced with my way.  I just want you to not be a hypocrite and put your money where your mouth is.  If prostration must happen on soil, please remove all the carpets from your mosques.  If that is not possible, place seven turbahs instead of one.  One for your face, two for your palms, two for your knees and toe for your toes.  Also, make sure your make some holes in your pants to expose those knees; after all, they must come in contact with the turbah directly without any garments sandwiched between them.  When you do that, send us a video of you praying.  It will be a YouTube hit!

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lol @onereligion everything you just said was already explained to you, but now I realize I'm just wasting my time here and for that I will leave you with this quote from Imam Ali (as) the first successor of the Prophet "The moment you start arguing with an ignorant fool, you have already lost."

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17 hours ago, onereligion said:

- The seven points is quite an issue.  You say our math is wrong; I say your prostration, according to your own set standards, is incorrect because you do not bring your palms, knees and toes to come in contact with soil (or whatever comes from earth).

- The Prophet (saw) mentioned "seven bones" and when he (saw) pronounced the forehead as one, he (saw) also included the nose in it.  If you see him in the Hereafter, you can inform him that his math and science (cartilage not bone) was off, naudhibillahi min dhalik.

- Prostration, according to the Sunnah, is when your forehead (including nose), palms, knees and toes come in contact with the ground.  Omitting one invalidates your prostration.

- I read the narrations.  I am waiting for you to understand them holistically.

- As mentioned, omitting one part is the same as performing an invalid prostration.  Your nose remains dangling while your palms, knees and toes are nowhere on the turbah.  You make your own innovations that contradict your own practice.  That is the joke that apparently isn't going over with most of you!

See the Prophet and his math are right. You are referring to a hadith from X on what he saw while pointing to something. I would say nose should be included if the nose was touched, otherwise pointing towards the nose and forehead are very close.

As the various narrations mentioned, the Prophet was specific about making sure his head was on mud. But let's say we are wrong and all 7 + nose should be on earth.

We put 1/7+nose on earth; Sunnis put 0/7+nose on earth. So we are still closer to the Sunnah and the sunnis.

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