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In the Name of God بسم الله

Can an illegitimate born child become a marja ?

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I just speculating without proof here. But i would think that certain things are birth related. Imagine a physical attribute such as born with bad lungs. Now that person can not become a olympic swimmer. It's not his or her fault, but it's just the hand they are dealt. I would assume that the same misfortune can happen with the soul/spirit of a person, that when they are born with a certain defect(if we can call it defect) such as illegitimate birth, they are prevented from participating/becoming certain things such as a scholar. 

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On 1/13/2017 at 1:31 PM, emceemo40 said:

Salam to all.

When I was recently reading the rulings of how a person can become a marja, I paused when I came across a ruling that said a person must be of a legitimate birth.

I then thought what if a person of an illegitimate birth wants to become a top scholar, because I don't believe they can't be blamed on their birth.

wasalam

I believe a person of illegitimate birth cannot even lead prayers so I doubt he can be a marja.

Now, they can reach that status in terms of knowledge but cannot be a marja over people.

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:salam:

I believe it would more have to do with social matters, such as the rights of the person towards his family, inheritance issues, etc... rather than spiritual defects. An illegitimate born person could have more iman, ihsan and maarifa than, say, a sayid.

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On 1/13/2017 at 2:40 PM, Akbar673 said:

I've always wondered about this...

so the child (who has done nothing wrong) when he/she comes of age can not do certain things simply because his parents made a mistake?

The child is punished for the sins of the parents?

Imagine if no one knows he is illegitimate. He goes to hawza, studies and becomes a marja.

Would he be committing a sin by acquiring knowledge and sharing it from God's point of view?

Who will define this as a sin?

People or God?

A marja acquires knowledge thru study unlike a prophet/ Imam who is chosen by God as a prophet and should be of pure origin, and is divinely appointed to speard the message.

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As-salamun-alaykum,

Good topic. I had the following queries: Is the ruling for an illegitimate person not fit to be a marja based on actual ahadith or is it based on scholarly agreement? What is the exact definition of illegitimate in contemporary times? Does it mean someone who is born to parents who are not married but are in a common law relationship (would this considered a form of muta?) or is it someone whose father is unknown?

Salman

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What constitutes an illegimate child? One born out of adultery, or any child born out of wedlock?

2 hours ago, Akbar673 said:

I've always wondered about this...

so the child (who has done nothing wrong) when he/she comes of age can not do certain things simply because his parents made a mistake?

The child is punished for the sins of the parents?

Perhaps it's because the child is the physical manifestation of the parents sins. And, is being ineligible for a communal leadership position considered an actual punishment?

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"An illegitimate child (a child born from adultery or fornication) can be an Imaam. However, this is disliked by Imaams Abu Hanifa, Maalik, and Al-Shaafi'ee, may  Allaah  have  mercy  upon  them. On the other hand, Imaam Ahmed may  Allaah  have  mercy  upon  him is of the view that it is permissible for a child of illegitimate birth to lead the congregational prayer and that this is not dislikeable if he is of sound religion. This is the preponderant opinion, Insha Allaah.

Ibn Al-Munthir may  Allaah  have  mercy  upon  him said: 'He can be an Imaam if he is acceptable, and the sin of others does not harm him.'

Allaah knows best."

 

"The great Hanafi jurist Mufti Rasheed Ahmed (Allah have mercy on him) mentions,

“Usually the absence of a father in the life of illegitimate children, results in them not being nurtured correctly.  This creates disinclination in the hearts of those around them.  This is the sole reason why their imamah in salaah is somewhat disliked (makruh tanzihan).  However, if this reason is not found within them, and they are pious and knowledgeable, there will not be any dislike whatsoever.  Instead, their leadership will be superior to others.  This is the same ruling for all roles and positions occupied by such individuals.” (Ahsan al-fataawa 3/295)"

Using basic logic it only stands to reason;  this Hadith if authentic, was given during a time such that prevalence of ignorance was highly circumstantial to most illegitimate children.  Blind men, Slaves, and illegitimate children were prone to ignorance and any lacked knowledge and such.  Clearly the converse situation can prevail in the modern age where these people can gain insight, spirituality, knowledge and other prerequisites to lead in prayer.

 

I don't know Shia' Marjae rulings on this matter. 

Keep in mind,  Orphans can be imams. There are many cases where no one knows the status of orphans if they were abandoned due to illegitimacy or whatever reason.  But I don't see any ruling or specificity towards their capacity to lead prayer and be an imam. 

Also consider if an illegitimately born child grow sup and bears a son within a legitimate marriage, that that son can be an imam. I think we should stop taking things literally without trying to apply some basic logic.

 

"There are plenty of beautiful traditions from the Ahlulbayt that teach us about showing kindness to the orphans and taking active part in their nourishment and growing up. Imam Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (peace be upon him) says, “One who maintains the orphans, Allah makes Paradise obligatory upon him, in the same way as he makes Hell obligatory upon those who usurp the property of the orphans.” Similarly, the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has said, “I and one who maintains an orphan would be together in Paradise in the presence of Allah, in the same way as these two fingers are together.” And he pointed out to his index and the middle finger joined together. In another beautiful tradition, the Prophet (peace be upon him) has stated, “If anyone from you becomes the guardian of an orphan and deals kindly with them, and he fulfils these actions satisfactorily, and he strokes the head of the orphan with sympathy, then Allah necessarily writes good deeds equivalent to the hair covered by his hand and forgives sins equal to the number of hair, and raises his position in grades equal to the hair of the orphan’s head.” These three narrations are mentioned in the book Greater Sins by Ayatollah Dastaghaib Shirazi who has also described in great detail about the eighth greater sin, usurping the property of an orphan, and the issues related to it."

Edited by wmehar2
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Well I donot know about any authentic fatwa of mujtahid, but Maraja are the one who are to decide about these.....

If  a person is borm illegitimate then it is the sin of man and woman whose deeds lead to his birth and it is not the sin of that soul which had no power or will to be born illegitimate

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3 hours ago, Engineer73 said:

What about the legitimate son of an illegitimate person?

I would assume a legitimate son of an illegitimate person is considered legitimate. Otherwise, nearly all the people we know of from the West that convert to the religion would not be able to study and become a marja.

3 hours ago, alidu78 said:

What about those born to kuffars parents and convert to islam and become even more pious than many muslims ?

For a person that is directly illegitimate born, this is what I have absolutely no idea on.

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18 hours ago, alidu78 said:

What about those born to kuffars parents and convert to islam and become even more pious than many muslims ?

Did you read the post immediately above your reply? It said, 'It is important to mention that such illegitimate children if they remain staunch on the good path can acquire higher positions and a better life because they have practiced more self control.....Illegitimate children also like natural and lawful children are free to choose the right or wrong path. They also with their intentions and powers can choose the path of righteousness and goodness and acquire salvation and be one of the Heavenly people.' 

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On 13/01/2017 at 7:40 PM, Akbar673 said:

The child is punished for the sins of the parents?

Regardless of whether you believe in any religion, I think the evidence is that, 'yes, children are punished for the sins of their parents'.

This is from: 

  • Levitt, S. D., & Dubner, S. J. (2005). Freakonomics: A rogue economist explores the hidden side of everything. New York: William Morrow.

freakonomics.jpeg

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11 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

Its probably got something to do with Imam Ali (as). an illegitimate person CANNOT love Imam Ali (as), how can they become a marja

I think it's not like this. The hadith is to the effect that those who HATE the Imam are two types: 1) munafiqeen and 2) those of illegitimate birth. Our excitable speakers have spun it in dozens of ways and gave it meanings that were originally not intended.

It's perfectly possible for a person born out of wedlock to be a momin and a lover of Ahle bait. He might not become a marja but I think it's not forbidden for him to seek knowledge and reach a station of ijtehad for himself.

I think there are also narrations that say that people of illegitimate birth can go to heaven but not on the same level/place as the legitimate ones. The important thing is that they are not barred.

So if there are restrictions on certain things, there is also fairplay because, in the end, the fact of someone's having born out of wedlock is not a fault of their own even if it has adverse effects on them, and it would be unjust to deny them faith and reward as a consequence of this.

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41 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

Regardless of whether you believe in any religion, I think the evidence is that, 'yes, children are punished for the sins of their parents'.

From islamic point of view,whatever you do knowingly and irresponsibly, you will be held accountable.

So whatever you pass down to your child,the main blame and punishment will be of the originators of it:

Quran:

It is indeed Us who resurrect the dead, and "We RECORD what THEY HAVE DONE and LEFT BEHIND. And everything We have counted in a clear record. (36:12)

Unless the child reaches a realization that what is passed down to him is ethically wrong and tries his best to change it, up to the his own capacity.

So for example if the child's mental or physical illness is due to the conscious act of the parent and the child has to struggle hard for it,the parents will bare most of what they put forward, and the child will not be held accountable for the part he cannot consciously control himself.

Quran:

Allah does not burden a soul beyond that it can bear...(2:286)

And whatever the child strives for to fix he shall be rewarded for his hard struggle which would not have to in normal cases.

Allah is most Just. Thank God he does not judge by human level intelligence.

 

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13 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

Its probably got something to do with Imam Ali (as). an illegitimate person CANNOT love Imam Ali (as), how can they become a marja

It's not saying an illegitimate person cannot love Imam Ali (AS) and be a Mu'min, it is saying that the one who hates Imam Ali (AS) is an illegitimate one. 

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On 1/13/2017 at 8:41 PM, salman1 said:

What is the exact definition of illegitimate in contemporary times?

Just to clarify to everyone, an illegitimate child is someone that is born directly from adultery or fornication, regardless of what religion they come from. 

Edited by emceemo40
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On 1/13/2017 at 8:41 PM, salman1 said:

Is the ruling for an illegitimate person not fit to be a marja based on actual ahadith or is it based on scholarly agreement?

I would assume that it is based on scholarly agreement, because I do not know about any hadith that also says the same.

Also, during the time of the Prophet and Imams, there was no such thing as a 'marja' because there would only be one leader, which was infallible.

Because today we are led by fallible leaders in the period of major occultation, I personally wouldn't see a problem, because everyone can be prone to error, and even the best person wouldn't be perfect (with respect to all maraji').  

Edited by emceemo40
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On 1/13/2017 at 2:04 PM, shiaman14 said:

I believe a person of illegitimate birth cannot even lead prayers so I doubt he can be a marja.

Now, they can reach that status in terms of knowledge but cannot be a marja over people.

Isa ibn Mariam AS was born illegitimately and led the people.  Out of wedlock, no father.

Nuh's AS son was wicked despite birth into legitimacy.

If imams AS were truthful and infallible then any and all sayings regarding illegitimate children not being able to lead prayer or be imams are obvious lies.

No soul will bear the burden of another soul.

If that compromises a "Sahih hadith", then authentication criterion ought to be called into question.  @repenter

Adam's AS  son killed his brother.

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23 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Isa ibn Mariam AS was born illegitimately and led the people.  Out of wedlock, no father.

Astaghfirullah. Prophet Isa AS had no father because Allah created him in a special way. Prophet Adam AS did not have a father or mother. We can't say they were illegitimate, naoozibillah.

The people who were born illegitimate cannot be blamed for it. They can become good people and reach highest levels. 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235042512-important-questions-answered/?do=findComment&comment=3000550

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1 minute ago, Hameedeh said:

Astaghfirullah. Prophet Isa AS had no father because Allah created him in a special way. Prophet Adam AS did not have a father or mother. We can't say they were illegitimate, naoozibillah.

The people who were born illegitimate cannot be blamed for it. They can become good people and reach highest levels. 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235042512-important-questions-answered/?do=findComment&comment=3000550

my point is that the idea men or illegitimate children born outside marriage cannot lead prayer or be an authority is made up hogwash against Quran.

They're no different from those born in wedlock.

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17 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

my point is that the idea men or illegitimate children born outside marriage cannot lead prayer or be an authority is made up hogwash against Quran.

They're no different from those born in wedlock.

Did you read the question and answer at the link I posted above? EDIT: It was a repeat of what ShiaChat Mod posted on page one in this topic.

Edited by Hameedeh
Apparently, the information on page one has not been observed.
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