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Fahad Sani

Shia of Ali a.s OR Shia of Muawiya

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DECIDE YOURSELF WHO YOU ARE?

Its the historical fact that it was muawiya bin abu sufiyan who started the biddah of lanah/cursing/abusing on Imam Ali a.s at mimbar/home. So those who are doing the same on first three caliphs and umm aisha are actually shina e muawiya (his followers in this regard).

On the other hand shian e Ali a.s are those who follow him in true sense keeping their ego aside.

 297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق  ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef from Ibn Alwan from Imam Jafar ibn Sadiq from his Father  from Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him:  "We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with  them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and  they see that they are upon truth." [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 297]

 إن عليا لم يكن ينسب أحدا من أهل حربه إلى الشرك ولا إلى النفاق ولكنه كان يقول: هم أخواننا بغوا علينا  - 298

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s said: “Ali didn't attribute anyone from those who fought against him to shirk or hypocrisy, but he said: “The are our brothers, which rebel  against us”. [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 298]

Source: https://www.aqaed.com/ahlulbait/books/behar32/a33.html

 

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1) Cursing is in the Holy Qur'an and the sahih Hadiths of our Madhab.

http://purifiedhousehold.com/is-cursing-lanah-a-wrong-or-obligatory/

2) Me and you discussed those Hadiths you mentioned above, and I told you they were weak, and in fact one of them has another Hadith which explains it.

While the mu'tabar Hadith we have says that the ones who fought Imam Ali (AS) rejected Islam.

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2 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

DECIDE YOURSELF WHO YOU ARE?

Its the historical fact that it was muawiya bin abu sufiyan who started the biddah of lanah/cursing/abusing on Imam Ali a.s at mimbar/home. So those who are doing the same on first three caliphs and umm aisha are actually shina e muawiya (his followers in this regard).

On the other hand shian e Ali a.s are those who follow him in true sense keeping their ego aside.

 297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق  ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef from Ibn Alwan from Imam Jafar ibn Sadiq from his Father  from Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him:  "We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with  them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and  they see that they are upon truth." [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 297]

 إن عليا لم يكن ينسب أحدا من أهل حربه إلى الشرك ولا إلى النفاق ولكنه كان يقول: هم أخواننا بغوا علينا  - 298

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s said: “Ali didn't attribute anyone from those who fought against him to shirk or hypocrisy, but he said: “The are our brothers, which rebel  against us”. [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 298]

Source: https://www.aqaed.com/ahlulbait/books/behar32/a33.html

 

Why you repeat yourself on things that we don't even believe in first place? 

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24 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

DECIDE YOURSELF WHO YOU ARE?

Its the historical fact that it was muawiya bin abu sufiyan who started the biddah of lanah/cursing/abusing on Imam Ali a.s at mimbar/home. So those who are doing the same on first three caliphs and umm aisha are actually shina e muawiya (his followers in this regard).

On the other hand shian e Ali a.s are those who follow him in true sense keeping their ego aside.

 297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق  ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef from Ibn Alwan from Imam Jafar ibn Sadiq from his Father  from Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him:  "We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with  them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and  they see that they are upon truth." [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 297]

 إن عليا لم يكن ينسب أحدا من أهل حربه إلى الشرك ولا إلى النفاق ولكنه كان يقول: هم أخواننا بغوا علينا  - 298

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s said: “Ali didn't attribute anyone from those who fought against him to shirk or hypocrisy, but he said: “The are our brothers, which rebel  against us”. [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 298]

Source: https://www.aqaed.com/ahlulbait/books/behar32/a33.html

 

What came first? The Quran or Muawiya?

You must read the censored version of the Quran where all La'an is removed from it aka the Muawiyan Quran.

Come on brother....

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13 hours ago, E.L King said:

1) Cursing is in the Holy Qur'an and the sahih Hadiths of our Madhab.

http://purifiedhousehold.com/is-cursing-lanah-a-wrong-or-obligatory/

2) Me and you discussed those Hadiths you mentioned above, and I told you they were weak, and in fact one of them has another Hadith which explains it.

While the mu'tabar Hadith we have says that the ones who fought Imam Ali (AS) rejected Islam.

Cursing in Quran is of general nature.

But the way shias do this is as per sunnah of muawiya, not of ALi a.s. Imam ALi a.s never did this to his opponents. Read letters of nahjul balagha, they start and end with salam.

Moreover it was muawiya who cursed Imam ALi a.s on mimbar, not the first three caliphs and umm aisha.

Rejected Islam? it means your school of thought is of takfiri nature (then what about me?). Opposite to  Imam ALi's a.s belief which is reported in mutawatur narrations (which are weak to you, why/how?).

 

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13 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Why you repeat yourself on things that we don't even believe in first place? 

Do you believe in the ayah of Quran mentioned in your signature. Is this only for twelver shias or for every human?

And those who, when they commit an immorality or wrong themselves [by transgression], remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins - and who can forgive sins except Allah ? - and [who] do not persist in what they have done while they know. Quran 3:135

Edited by Fahad Sani

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Salam,

With regards to muawiya(la) the son of the liver eater and his [Edited Out] son yazid(la), I have absolutely no problem cursing them, they are enemies of islam and truly the enemies of islam deserves curses:

[111:1] May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.

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13 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Salam,

With regards to muawiya(la) the son of the liver eater and his [Edited Out] son yazid(la), I have absolutely no problem cursing them, they are enemies of islam and truly the enemies of islam deserves curses:

[111:1] May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.

w.salam.

Agreed.

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51 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

Cursing in Quran is of general nature.

But the way shias do this is as per sunnah of muawiya, not of ALi a.s. Imam ALi a.s never did this to his opponents. Read letters of nahjul balagha, they start and end with salam.

Moreover it was muawiya who cursed Imam ALi a.s on mimbar, not the first three caliphs and umm aisha.

Rejected Islam? it means your school of thought is of takfiri nature (then what about me?). Opposite to  Imam ALi's a.s belief which is reported in mutawatur narrations (which are weak to you, why/how?).

 

Incorrect. The Holy Qur'an specifically curses Iblees (LA). But that doesn't matter, since our Hadiths prove the Imams (AS) cursed people specifially, and there is nothing in the Holy Qur'an which says you can't do that. 

Do you have proof from the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah saying you can't curse specifically?

I have tons of proof for cursing.

If you read my link maybe you would know.

May Allah curse Fir'aun, Abu Jahl and Nimrod. Is that wrong? 

I don't really care what you think of my school of thought. My school of thought says anyone who fought Imam Ali (AS) due to animosity is a kafir (nasibi) worthy of Hellfire forever. 

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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

DECIDE YOURSELF WHO YOU ARE?

g on

 إن عليا لم يكن ينسب أحدا من أهل حربه إلى الشرك ولا إلى النفاق ولكنه كان يقول: هم أخواننا بغوا علينا  - 298

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s said: “Ali didn't attribute anyone from those who fought against him to shirk or hypocrisy, but he said: “The are our brothers, which rebel  against us”. [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 298]

Source: https://www.aqaed.com/ahlulbait/books/behar32/a33.html

 

http://purifiedhousehold.com/eloquence-under-taqiyyah-the-imams-as-hidden-insults/

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6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Do you believe in the ayah of Quran mentioned in your signature. Is this only for twelver shias or for every human?

And those who, when they commit an immorality or wrong themselves [by transgression], remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins - and who can forgive sins except Allah ? - and [who] do not persist in what they have done while they know. Quran 3:135

Enemies of Allah (swt) don't deserve that verse, what they deserve is this:

That is the reward of the enemies of Allah-- the fire; for them therein shall be the house of long abiding; a reward for their denying Our communications.

Any person who went against Imam Ali (as) wilayah and Ahlulbait (as) is consider in our religion the one who is denying the communication of Allah (swt). 

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Imam (as) used to curse Muawiyah (la) in his qunut while he was in Kufa in every Fajr prayer, after he heard that he ordered Busr (la) to do what he did in Arabia.

Aisha cursed Muawiyah (la) and Amr ibn al Aas in every prayer in her qunut after she heard about the death of Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (ra).

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On 1/13/2017 at 8:46 AM, shiaman14 said:

What came first? The Quran or Muawiya?

You must read the censored version of the Quran where all La'an is removed from it aka the Muawiyan Quran.

Come on brother....

La'an in quran is in general sense. There is no problem in saying lanah be upon all those who oppressed ahlebait. Its general. By name lanah even after their death is sunnah of muawiya. Not of ALi a.s.

On 1/13/2017 at 11:25 AM, shiaman14 said:

Allah curses the zalimeen.

Shias curse the enemies of the AhlulBayt.

Brother @Fahad Sani - why is Allah right and the shias wrong?

Allah curses in general sense except to those who are by name mentioned in Quran. Even though He knows everything.

While Shias curse by name. Ali a.s never cursed his opponents by name. Indeed he a.s only did qunoot nazila for muawiya and there is narration where Imam ALi a.s said on the day of judgement Allah will decide between me and muawiya.

Truth is that it was muawiya who started the biddah of cursing Imam ALi a.s. Shias are following muawiyah in this regard and they not only curse muawiya and his group but also first three caliphs and some other companions who never curse ahlebait.

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On 1/13/2017 at 1:39 PM, zainabamy said:

The Holy Prophet (sawa) sent lanah on the companions (including the beloved threesome) who refused to join the army of Usama bin Zaid

That lanah (I think it was displeasure not lanah, whatever) was also in general sense. Names are not mentioned. So calm down.

On 1/14/2017 at 0:30 AM, P. Ease said:

Imam (as) used to curse Muawiyah (la) in his qunut while he was in Kufa in every Fajr prayer, after he heard that he ordered Busr (la) to do what he did in Arabia.

Aisha cursed Muawiyah (la) and Amr ibn al Aas in every prayer in her qunut after she heard about the death of Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (ra).

Again its all about muawiya. And its qunut not lanah, the way shia are doing and are supporting the sunnah of muawiya.

This was sunnah of Ali a.s.

On 1/13/2017 at 8:20 AM, Fahad Sani said:

On the other hand shian e Ali a.s are those who follow him in true sense keeping their ego aside.

 297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق  ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef from Ibn Alwan from Imam Jafar ibn Sadiq from his Father  from Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him:  "We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with  them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and  they see that they are upon truth." [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 297]

 إن عليا لم يكن ينسب أحدا من أهل حربه إلى الشرك ولا إلى النفاق ولكنه كان يقول: هم أخواننا بغوا علينا  - 298

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s said: “Ali didn't attribute anyone from those who fought against him to shirk or hypocrisy, but he said: “The are our brothers, which rebel  against us”. [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 298]

 

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On 1/13/2017 at 9:57 AM, E.L King said:

Incorrect. The Holy Qur'an specifically curses Iblees (LA). But that doesn't matter, since our Hadiths prove the Imams (AS) cursed people specifially, and there is nothing in the Holy Qur'an which says you can't do that.

I have tons of proof for cursing.

If you read my link maybe you would know.

May Allah curse Fir'aun, Abu Jahl and Nimrod. Is that wrong? 

 

This thread is not about cursing iblees, firoun, namrud etc. Those who are cursed by name in Quran and in ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w is a different case. While the overall concept of cursing in quran is of general sense. Moreover it was not the practice of Imam ALi a.s to curse his opponents.

On 1/13/2017 at 9:57 AM, E.L King said:

Do you have proof from the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah saying you can't curse specifically?

I don't really care what you think of my school of thought. My school of thought says anyone who fought Imam Ali (AS) due to animosity is a kafir (nasibi) worthy of Hellfire forever. 

If you are cursing someone by name then its very problematic. May be they have repented for their sins or may be they have not oppressed ahlebayt at all in any manner. If you are ready to take this risk then plz do. Takfir is even more problematic.

 297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق  ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef from Ibn Alwan from Imam Jafar ibn Sadiq from his Father  from Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him:  "We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with  them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and  they see that they are upon truth." [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 297]

Follow Imam ALi a.s in true sense. Not muawiya (lanah concept) or Khwarij (takfir concept).
 

 

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37 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

This thread is not about cursing iblees, firoun, namrud etc. Those who are cursed by name in Quran and in ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w is a different case. While the overall concept of cursing in quran is of general sense. Moreover it was not the practice of Imam ALi a.s to curse his opponents.

If you are cursing someone by name then its very problematic. May be they have repented for their sins or may be they have not oppressed ahlebayt at all in any manner. If you are ready to take this risk then plz do. Takfir is even more problematic.

 297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق  ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef from Ibn Alwan from Imam Jafar ibn Sadiq from his Father  from Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him:  "We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with  them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and  they see that they are upon truth." [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 297]

Follow Imam ALi a.s in true sense. Not muawiya (lanah concept) or Khwarij (takfir concept).
 

 

No it's not problematic if you know for sure they died as non-mu'mins. And I will follow the Imams (AS) who cursed individuals specifically according to sahih Hadiths and I will follow their Sunnah.

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3 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

La'an in quran is in general sense. There is no problem in saying lanah be upon all those who oppressed ahlebait. Its general. By name lanah even after their death is sunnah of muawiya. Not of ALi a.s.

Allah curses in general sense except to those who are by name mentioned in Quran. Even though He knows everything.

While Shias curse by name. Ali a.s never cursed his opponents by name. Indeed he a.s only did qunoot nazila for muawiya and there is narration where Imam ALi a.s said on the day of judgement Allah will decide between me and muawiya.

Truth is that it was muawiya who started the biddah of cursing Imam ALi a.s. Shias are following muawiyah in this regard and they not only curse muawiya and his group but also first three caliphs and some other companions who never curse ahlebait.

So as it turns out, cursing by name is an Act of Allah. That's all we do too.

 

3 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

This thread is not about cursing iblees, firoun, namrud etc. Those who are cursed by name in Quran and in ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w is a different case. While the overall concept of cursing in quran is of general sense. Moreover it was not the practice of Imam ALi a.s to curse his opponents.

If you are cursing someone by name then its very problematic. May be they have repented for their sins or may be they have not oppressed ahlebayt at all in any manner. If you are ready to take this risk then plz do. Takfir is even more problematic.

 

La'an of Allah is very smart. It only impacts those who are not repentant. As such, I bear the risk of cursing someone - if I am wrong, then the la'an would turn on me. If I am right, it would be for that person.

Either the la'an sent by shias will be turned on them or it will go to the guilty. Isn't it a win-win situation for you?

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5 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Again its all about muawiya. And its qunut not lanah, the way shia are doing and are supporting the sunnah of muawiya.

There was la'n in the qunut.

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On 1/13/2017 at 11:14 PM, power said:

TAQIYYAH.

Do you know about half of twelver shia narrations are under taqiyyah. Dont know how, why? Just because scholars are sayings, on what basis.

Taqiyyah is only in extreme situations. Its not when someone is sitting in his home with his friends and family and doing taqiyyah.

There are situations where doing taqiyyah is haram.

Moreover if divinely appointed Imams whose job is to guide people themselves are under taqiyyah then why blame is on those who oppose them. Read shia history work FIRAQ UL SHIA by 3rd century shia scholar naubakhti.

Taqiyyah does not mean you can play games.

And the declaration of narrations under taqiyyah by shia scholars is merely based on guesswork. They have no proof. May be narrations under taqiyyah is truth while opposite is falsehood. Compare everything with Quran and Sunnah.

Taqqiyah is explained here in detail. Check this out.

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8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

So as it turns out, cursing by name is an Act of Allah. That's all we do too.

Because Allah know who is truly the cursed one. But first three caliphs and Umm aisha are not mentioned and cursed by name in Quran.

8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

La'an of Allah is very smart. It only impacts those who are not repentant. As such, I bear the risk of cursing someone - if I am wrong, then the la'an would turn on me. If I am right, it would be for that person.

Either the la'an sent by shias will be turned on them or it will go to the guilty. Isn't it a win-win situation for you?

Everyone will be held responsible for his own acts on qiyamah. Allah knows everything. Nothing is hidden from Him.

But why you and other brothers/sisters are taking this risk. Instead of doing righteous deeds more and more we are making things worse for ourselves by doing lanah or takfir etc. Which may or may not be true. Its very risky.

Thats why I am saying follow Imam Ali a.s in this regard, not muawiyah.

Edited by Fahad Sani

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11 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Because Allah know who is truly the cursed one. But first three caliphs and Umm aisha are not mentioned and cursed by name in Quran.

The Quran and Sunnah establish precedence. Allah used la'an in general at times and specifically at times. This is precedence which means we can send generally ( la'an on the enemies of AhlulBayt) or specifically (La'an on yazid, la'an on MUawiya, etc.).

Brother if you are going to boast about following the Quran and Sunnah, do it right.

11 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Everyone will be held responsible for his own acts on qiyamah. Allah knows everything. Nothing is hidden from Him.

But why you and other brothers/sisters are taking this risk. Instead of doing righteous deeds more and more we are making things worse for ourselves by doing lanah or takfir etc. Which may or may not be true. Its very risky.

Thats why I am saying follow Imam Ali a.s in this regard, not muawiyah.

The greater the risk, the greater the reward, right? And I can do a multitude of good deed simultaneously. For example, I can be fasting and send la'an; I can send la'an during hajj, etc. 

BTW, if I remember correctly, didn't you say at one point that either MUawiya or Yazzed or both were la'an-worthy? To be specific, is Yazeed la'an worthy?

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On 1/20/2017 at 8:38 AM, shiaman14 said:

The Quran and Sunnah establish precedence. Allah used la'an in general at times and specifically at times. This is precedence which means we can send generally ( la'an on the enemies of AhlulBayt) or specifically (La'an on yazid, la'an on MUawiya, etc.).

Brother if you are going to boast about following the Quran and Sunnah, do it right.

The greater the risk, the greater the reward, right? And I can do a multitude of good deed simultaneously. For example, I can be fasting and send la'an; I can send la'an during hajj, etc. 

BTW, if I remember correctly, didn't you say at one point that either MUawiya or Yazzed or both were la'an-worthy? To be specific, is Yazeed la'an worthy?

Lanah in general sense is ok. No issues. I also do this and its also manhaj of ahlul sunnah.

Problem is in sending lanah specifically. For this we need a very  strong proof. As lanah is opposite of mercy. For e.g iblees, firoun,  namrud, abu lahab etc all are by name cursed in Quran. Yazid l.a also  joins this group. As we have ahadith which confirm this.

On the other hand sending lanah on muawiyah is a disputed matter. Imam  ALi a.s never cursed his opponents and his a.s view is mentioned in  OP. Such narrations are mutawatur i.e both in shia and sunni sources.  It doesnt mean that I am denying the fact that muawiyah did many  crimes. I admit all those. Neither I love muawiyah nor I defend him  for the things which he did. But I also dont curse him by name as its  not the sunnah of Imam ALi a.s.  His matter is with Allah.

More problematic is the fact that twelver shias not only curse  muawiyah and yazid but most of them also curse first three caliphs,  umm aisha and some other sahabah. This is contrary to sunnah of Imam  ALi a.s. Moreover we have many ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w in their  praise. For me words of Prophet s.a.w.w are much much more heavy than the  sins/mistakes done by some sahabah. One or two bad deeds do not make all good deeds multiplied by zero. Moreover quanlity of good deeds is important not the quantity.

It was muawiyah who started the lanah culture which twelver shias are adopting.

Its better to send lanah in general sense. It will surely reach on  deserving ones.

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6 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Lanah in general sense is ok. No issues. I also do this and its also manhaj of ahlul sunnah.

Problem is in sending lanah specifically. For this we need a very  strong proof. As lanah is opposite of mercy. For e.g iblees, firoun,  namrud, abu lahab etc all are by name cursed in Quran. Yazid l.a also  joins this group. As we have ahadith which confirm this.

On the other hand sending lanah on muawiyah is a disputed matter. Imam  ALi a.s never cursed his opponents and his a.s view is mentioned in  OP. Such narrations are mutawatur i.e both in shia and sunni sources.  It doesnt mean that I am denying the fact that muawiyah did many  crimes. I admit all those. Neither I love muawiyah nor I defend him  for the things which he did. But I also dont curse him by name as its  not the sunnah of Imam ALi a.s.  His matter is with Allah.

More problematic is the fact that twelver shias not only curse  muawiyah and yazid but most of them also curse first three caliphs,  umm aisha and some other sahabah. This is contrary to sunnah of Imam  ALi a.s. Moreover we have many ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w in their  praise. For me words of Prophet s.a.w.w are much much more heavy than the  sins/mistakes done by some sahabah. One or two bad deeds do not make all good deeds multiplied by zero. Moreover quanlity of good deeds is important not the quantity.

It was muawiyah who started the lanah culture which twelver shias are adopting.

Its better to send lanah in general sense. It will surely reach on  deserving ones.

Brother - you need to establish the rules first and then we can decide to whom it is applicable.

First you said only general la'an. Now you are saying it can be specific too.

Are we in agreement that la'an can be general or specific?

If so, then we can discuss who is la'an worthy and who is not.

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On ‎14‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 1:30 PM, P. Ease said:

Imam (as) used to curse Muawiyah (la) in his qunut while he was in Kufa in every Fajr prayer, after he heard that he ordered Busr (la) to do what he did in Arabia.

Aisha cursed Muawiyah (la) and Amr ibn al Aas in every prayer in her qunut after she heard about the death of Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (ra).

can u give me a reference on this please?

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6 hours ago, Moiz Shah said:

can u give me a reference on this please?

Tadhkira ul Khawass page 62, Tar'ikh Ibn al Wardi Voume 1 page 245 and Tarikh Kamil Volume 3 page 180 in connection with Mu'awiya's killing of  Ayesha's brother as follows:

"Following the death of Muhammad bin 'Abu Bakr the people of Egypt gave bayya to Mu'awiya. It was following this (event) that Ummul Mu'mineen Ayesha would curse Mu'awiya and Amr bin Aas after every Salaat".

''After an angry exchange he (Ibn Hudayj) killed the son of Abu Bakr, put him inside the carcass of a donkey, and burned him in it. When 'A'isha heard of her brother's miserable end, she was seized with violent grief, and she included a curse on Mu'awiya and 'Amr in the qunut of her prayers. She took charge of her brother's dependants and brought up his son al-Qasim, who became one of the leading religious scholars of Medina.''

Tar'ikh Ibn al Wardi Voume 1; page 245
Tar'ikh Kamil; Vol. 3 page 180
The Succession to Muhammad by Wilferd Madelung; 268
Tabari, I, 3400-6; 3407
Thaqafi, Gharat, 276-85
Thaqafi, Gharat, 288-9

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On 1/21/2017 at 8:27 AM, shiaman14 said:

Brother - you need to establish the rules first and then we can decide to whom it is applicable.

First you said only general la'an. Now you are saying it can be specific too.

Are we in agreement that la'an can be general or specific?

If so, then we can discuss who is la'an worthy and who is not.

I said both but with conditions. See my previous post.

 

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6 hours ago, P. Ease said:

Tadhkira ul Khawass page 62, Tar'ikh Ibn al Wardi Voume 1 page 245 and Tarikh Kamil Volume 3 page 180 in connection with Mu'awiya's killing of  Ayesha's brother as follows:

"Following the death of Muhammad bin 'Abu Bakr the people of Egypt gave bayya to Mu'awiya. It was following this (event) that Ummul Mu'mineen Ayesha would curse Mu'awiya and Amr bin Aas after every Salaat".

''After an angry exchange he (Ibn Hudayj) killed the son of Abu Bakr, put him inside the carcass of a donkey, and burned him in it. When 'A'isha heard of her brother's miserable end, she was seized with violent grief, and she included a curse on Mu'awiya and 'Amr in the qunut of her prayers. She took charge of her brother's dependants and brought up his son al-Qasim, who became one of the leading religious scholars of Medina.''

Tar'ikh Ibn al Wardi Voume 1; page 245
Tar'ikh Kamil; Vol. 3 page 180
The Succession to Muhammad by Wilferd Madelung; 268
Tabari, I, 3400-6; 3407
Thaqafi, Gharat, 276-85
Thaqafi, Gharat, 288-9

JAZAK Allah.

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15 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

I said both but with conditions. See my previous post.

 

That's all we say too. La'an can be specific or general.

Who is la'an worthy is a separate issue now. Feel free to start that thread.

Edited by shiaman14

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On ‎19‎-‎1‎-‎2017 at 6:07 PM, Fahad Sani said:

This thread is not about cursing iblees, firoun, namrud etc. Those who are cursed by name in Quran and in ahadith of Prophet s.a.w.w is a different case. While the overall concept of cursing in quran is of general sense. Moreover it was not the practice of Imam ALi a.s to curse his opponents.

If you are cursing someone by name then its very problematic. May be they have repented for their sins or may be they have not oppressed ahlebayt at all in any manner. If you are ready to take this risk then plz do. Takfir is even more problematic.

 297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق  ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef from Ibn Alwan from Imam Jafar ibn Sadiq from his Father  from Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him:  "We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with  them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and  they see that they are upon truth." [Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 297]

Follow Imam ALi a.s in true sense. Not muawiya (lanah concept) or Khwarij (takfir concept).
 

 

Salam,

Were these statements adressed at Muawiyyah or the Khawarij?

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