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In the Name of God بسم الله

Does Israel belong to the Jews?

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Seemingly Quran 5:20 say the holy land belongs to the Jews. At least I heard non-Muslims using this as a pro Israel argument. But do you Muslims agree? Do you not regard Moses to be a Muslim? And if so, does this mean that Muslims are the true inheritors of the land, or are these thoughts of mine totally irrelevant?.

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5 hours ago, andres said:

Seemingly Quran 5:20 say the holy land belongs to the Jews. At least I heard non-Muslims using this as a pro Israel argument. But do you Muslims agree? Do you not regard Moses to be a Muslim? And if so, does this mean that Muslims are the true inheritors of the land, or are these thoughts of mine totally irrelevant?.

:salam:

Two verses are used, 5:21 and 17:104. I agree with Br. Joseph with regards to these two verses that are used by the non-Muslims wrongly. 

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There does not appear to be a prophecy in 17:104 if read in the Arabic and compared with 17:7. This may be a problem with translations. Let me show you.

First, there is no 'second' in the Arabic as is commonly translated (i.e. when the 'second' of the warnings...). Also note carefully the Arabic in bold and in the illustration. I will translate it more literally from the Arabic for you to make the point.

017:007
"If you do good, you do good for yourselves and if you do evil, (you did it) against yourselves. So when the promise of the last came (Arabic: Fa-idha jaa wa'du l-akhirat), (we permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Masjid as they had entered it (the ) first time, and to destroy what they had conquered (with destruction)" 

Note the phrase "Fa-idha jaa wa'du l-akhirat" (So when the promise of the last). In the above verse, it is clearly referring to a past event most likely a reference to the destruction of the Temple in AD70 by the Romans. 

What is important to note is that the same phrase is used in 17:104

017:104
"And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land (of promise)": So when the promise of the last of the warnings came (Arabic: Fa-idha jaa wa'du l-akhirat), We gathered you together in a mingled crowd"

They are both past events with the identical Arabic used. I am not sure why so many commentators, despite the Arabic, translate the latter verse 17:104 differently and understand the 'akhirat' here as hereafter but not in 17:7. The only one that I know who translates it with my understanding is Yusuf Ali.

I feel both verses deal with the events of AD70 and 17:104 is not necessarily a prophecy about a future event.

Finally, 5:21 has a context. Prophet Moses spoke directly with his people and informed them that this particular land was assigned for them. Now the question is whether this is strictly his people or the Children of Israel forever. Note the term 'Bani Israel' is not used in 5:21, only 'ya'qawmi' (my people / community). Then if you read on it was banned to them for forty years because of their transgression (5:26). So a particular generation seems to have been punished. This also lends strength to the argument that this land was promised to a certain people with Prophet Moses. Also, remember that the other Israelites inherited the Eastern lands (7:137) as not all the Israelites left with Prophet Moses.

EXODUS OF PROPHET MOSES'S (pbuh) PEOPLE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/exodus%20of%20moses's%20people%20FM3.htm

As I don't understand the verses the way you have intimated, therefore I cannot answer your pointed question. However, I will say that no one has a right to usurp another's land. Also, I don't necessarily see any Biblical right to land categorically supported by the Quran. 5:21 has a context. 17:104 and 17:7 don't seem to be translated consistently given the Arabic. However, in persecution the Quran clearly encourages 'Hijrat' (migration). There are many verses where God says His earth is spacious. (29:56; 39:10).

Source: http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=58.0

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3 minutes ago, IjazLinorAhmad said:

First, there is no 'second' in the Arabic as is commonly translated (i.e. when the 'second' of the warnings...). Also note carefully the Arabic in bold and in the illustration. I will translate it more literally from the Arabic for you to make the point.

017:007
"If you do good, you do good for yourselves and if you do evil, (you did it) against yourselves. So when the promise of the last came (Arabic: Fa-idha jaa wa'du l-akhirat), (we permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Masjid as they had entered it (the ) first time, and to destroy what they had conquered (with destruction)" 

Note the phrase "Fa-idha jaa wa'du l-akhirat" (So when the promise of the last). In the above verse, it is clearly referring to a past event most likely a reference to the destruction of the Temple in AD70 by the Romans. 

What is important to note is that the same phrase is used in 17:104

017:104
"And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land (of promise)": So when the promise of the last of the warnings came (Arabic: Fa-idha jaa wa'du l-akhirat), We gathered you together in a mingled crowd"

They are both past events with the identical Arabic used. I am not sure why so many commentators, despite the Arabic, translate the latter verse 17:104 differently and understand the 'akhirat' here as hereafter but not in 17:7. The only one that I know who translates it with my understanding is Yusuf Ali.

I feel both verses deal with the events of AD70 and 17:104 is not necessarily a prophecy about a future event.

 

Okay, this makes sense. In light of this, what is the meaning of 17:104 then? In 17:4 "the promise of the last" is followed by punishment. In 17:104 "the promise of the last" is followed by a gathering of the people. Why? Did Allah gather Bani Israel together to punish them? Or is there another meaning? In our traditions the "gathering" is a good thing! Are there any tafsir on this ayat in particular?

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Mr Deedat was only interpreting the Bible  But my impressionis that Muslims interpret the Quran saying the holy land is promised to both Jews and Arabs.(?) If so, why did Muslim states oppose the reestablishment of Israel? Both Arabs and Jews live there. Is the word Israel mentioned in the Quran?

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Even if it did, do you define the land according to its present boundaries or the boundaries of an earlier age? In case of the later, what are those boundaries?

In any case, God does not give anything to any individual or group of individuals on a permanent basis.

He gives and He takes back whenever He wishes.

As one example, He gave India to the British and after 200 years He took it back.

There are hundreds of examples like that in history.

 

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Boarders change and nations come and go. Israel only existed a couple of centuries in the beginning of the 1st milennium BC. Then came the smaller Judea, most of the time ruled by foreign nations. 70AD Judea was no more. Still the Quran in 650AD say God had promised the land to the Israelites. Islamic Iran and Hizbollah obviously believe this promise is no longer valid. Any support for this in the Quran?

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2 minutes ago, andres said:

 Still the Quran in 650AD say God had promised the land to the Israelites. 

"Still the Quran in 650 AD say"   -   I am sorry but that  statement makes no sense. 

Unless the recipient qualifies for exceptional status, as I have told you already, God never gives anything on a permanent basis.

And from the point of view of the Quran, the Jews cannot possibly claim exceptional status because it rejects their claim to be the chosen people (Q. 2:94 and Q. 5:18). 

 

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5 hours ago, baqar said:

In any case, God does not give anything to any individual or group of individuals on a permanent basis.

He gives and He takes back whenever He wishes.

It appears that He took the land away from Muslim control and give it to the Jewish people! 

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5 hours ago, baqar said:

"Still the Quran in 650 AD say"   -   I am sorry but that  statement makes no sense. 

Unless the recipient qualifies for exceptional status, as I have told you already, God never gives anything on a permanent basis.

And from the point of view of the Quran, the Jews cannot possibly claim exceptional status because it rejects their claim to be the chosen people (Q. 2:94 and Q. 5:18). 

 

I do not see the connection between the two verses of the Quran and "chosen people". However my question was that the Quran say God promised the land to the Israelites. Only the Bible and the Quran say so. Reality does not reflect this. Israel lasted a few hundred years only and Juda was not very often an independent state. Jews were forced into the diaspora 500 years before Muhammed died so there was no Jewish state when the Quran was written. Still the Quran say the Israelites were promised the land by God. If the Quran did not cancel that promise when it was written, does that not mean that Muslims should believe Israel belongs to the Israelis? 

(One can discuss who the Israelis were, Jews were, maybe also many arabs, but that is another question)

 

 

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1 hour ago, andres said:

I started this thread. Please have a look at that first post of mine.  

Yes, of course.

I am sorry, I should have read the OP first.

If you read the following verses, except for two people (Q. 5:23), the rest rejected the offer (Q: 5.24), presumably because it involved engaging in some sort of combat (Q. 5:24).

Moses then despaired of his people and complained to his Lord (Q. 5:25).

And as a punishment, they were banished into the wilderness for 40 years (Q. 5: 26).

And the offer was NEVER renewed.

At least NOT in the Quran. 

 

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All those years they carried the ark of the covenant. The covenant God made with Israel within. One would assume that ark would come to rest in the middle of the promised land. It was carted off twice in battle, recovered once, they never got their "covenant" back. Some say it was destroyed. A covenant is kinda like a big promise. Once broken, what's left?

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4 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

All those years they carried the ark of the covenant. The covenant God made with Israel within. One would assume that ark would come to rest in the middle of the promised land. It was carted off twice in battle, recovered once, they never got their "covenant" back. Some say it was destroyed. A covenant is kinda like a big promise. Once broken, what's left?

Was the ark not present in Jerusalem? Until animal sacrifices were ordered to be done in Jerusalem only (6th century BC) sacrifices were done in many locations so there could have been many copies of the Arc. Have you heard about  Lemba Jews in South Africa? They claim yo have brought the Arc with them. 

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8 hours ago, baqar said:

Yes, of course.

I am sorry, I should have read the OP first.

If you read the following verses, except for two people (Q. 5:23), the rest rejected the offer (Q: 5.24), presumably because it involved engaging in some sort of combat (Q. 5:24).

Moses then despaired of his people and complained to his Lord (Q. 5:25).

And as a punishment, they were banished into the wilderness for 40 years (Q. 5: 26).

And the offer was NEVER renewed.

At least NOT in the Quran. 

 

They did not reject the offer. They refused to enter the land as long as the giants(!) were there. God did not cancel his promise (or were there according to the Quran conditions connected to it? ), but God punished them with 40 years in the desert for refusing to enter as long the Giants were there. 

 

"My people! Enter the holy land which Allah has ordained for you, and do not turn back for then you will turn about losers."

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