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Abbas.

Are you Sincere to Islam?

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If our Prophet Muhammad (P.b.u.H) had been sent in this era, would you even consider His teachings?

If yes....

Have you been open-minded enough to consider other religions or ideas that are against the teachings of your forefathers?

:ideas-worth-pondering:

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I guess if it wasn't for Shia Islam, and didn't truly know the historic events that changed the course of Islam, I must have quitted 'Islam' for Christianity. 

As his highness (SAW) is represented in history and he truly was, Sadiq & Amin., I would definitely listen to., and I am 200% sure I'd have been the first one to embrace Islam, as to what we know of the 'uswa-Hussna' definitely it was his highness (SAW) 's moral character that had convinced people. 

Today the lack of religion can be chalked up to both religious extremism and even more truthfully the lack of 'true characters' among the clerics. I am not talking about noble Clerics such as Sistani and Khameini... but of those who are accessible to, in our neighborhood or in cities... as mostly people look out to them for help. It would have been very hard for them to convince me to embrace Islam therefore. 

But let's not go off-topic.. Yes given his (SAW) Noble Character, who would not have. I guess this question is legitimate, that you have raised, but I guess it's more to do with current state of Islam and Clerics (local mostly) ... than to do with Islam itself, that as we know, has gone through devastation over the past 1400 years.

Edited by ErikCartman

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Great question.

_ Yes, because I normally don't ask for paper degree /hawza qualifications, I go by " look what is being said, not who is saying it"

The prophet had no paper qualifications, accepting him was just based on trust and truthfulness.

I noticed with most people, even if they hear something sensible, they ask what are his paper qualifications. If there is no paper qualification of any kind, the content of what is being said is totally put aside.

There is an obession with degree/paper qualification.

Probably most would reject the prophet because he did not study in hawza to become an Alim or marja thru the way many scholars attain their status.

If he were to teach, everyone would ask him, are you a scholar or marja?

How can we believe you are in direct contact with God. Show us a miracle, if not show us your qualifications with stamp from Qum or Najaf.

Lets be honest to ourselves, who would we choose between a common layman like Mohammad without any formal education in hawza or a top ranking marja? Who would we follow and who would we disregard?

- Yes, I seeked and listened to various discussions and found levels of wisdom in each concept/ religion, but found full wisdom in Islam eventually by the grace of God Alhamdulilah.

Edited by certainclarity

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6 minutes ago, ErikCartman said:

But let's not go off-topic.. Yes given his (SAW) Noble Character, who would not have. I guess this question is legitimate, that you have raised, but I guess it's more to do with current state of Islam and Clerics (local mostly) ... than to do with Islam itself, that as we know, has gone through devastation over the past 1400 years.

4

Bro, the question has less to do with Islam and the Clerics. I want to know if you would be open minded to explore Islam if it was presented to you as a new religion. For example, imagine that you are a Hindu or a Christian. A person named Muhammed or his representatives comes to you to share the teachings of Islam. Will you be open-minded? If you think that you will be open minded to listen to the Prophet (P.b.u.H) or his representatives, can you really prove it by showing that you have actually considered/researched other religions?

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9 minutes ago, Abbas. said:

Bro, the question has less to do with Islam and the Clerics. I want to know if you would be open minded to explore Islam if it was presented to you as a new religion. For example, imagine that you are a Hindu or a Christian. A person named Muhammed or his representatives comes to you to share the teachings of Islam. Will you be open-minded? If you think that you will be open minded to listen to the Prophet (P.b.u.H) or his representatives, can you really prove it by showing that you have actually considered/researched other religions?

As far me, despite you would think I am barely 'relgious' in terms of practing one, but still I have sufficient knoweldge on all school of thoughts. it was actually due to my quest., to find out the truth... I have studied Sahih Bukhari extenseivley and so on.

Yes I gave very significant thought to all religions.... Juda/Christianity/Sunni ... if this is what you wanted to know.

Therefore I tend to praise Tahir Ul Qadri too. If you know who he is. Sunni Call him Shia., like that. 

But still Sunni or other faith didn't convince me enough to quit Shia faith..

I guess i did answer your basic question Yes definitely I am so open minded that I would make no hesitation to consider or even embrace a religion if that made sense according to my set of rules.

But again, you are confusing something., you are comparing 6th Century to 21st .... If Prophet (SAW) had to come in 2017 ... He would be on car, using Truth Brush, and eating KFC.... and having Youtube Channel and perhaps a  Doctor or engineer by profession.

Edited by ErikCartman

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29 minutes ago, ErikCartman said:

I am 200% sure I'd have been the first one to embrace Islam, as to what we know of the 'uswa-Hussna' definitely it was his highness (SAW) 's moral character that had convinced people. 

What if you had to choose between a layman with no hawza qualifications and a very learned scholar (marja)?

For example the marjas you stated and a layman who is rather unknown and without any qualifications to prove himself?

Which would you choose? The marjas you stated or a layman like Mohammad?

Edited by certainclarity

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Just now, ErikCartman said:

But again, you are confusing something., you are comparting 6th Century to 21st .... If Prophet (SAW) had to come in 2017 ... He would be on car, using Truth Brush, and eating KFC.... and having Youtube Channel and perhaps a very Doctor or engineer by profession.

3

No, I am not. Say, if a member of Jehovah's witness knocks your door.... would you welcome him? If an Ismaili/Mirza'i/waqifi presents an argument to you ..... would you be willing to consider it? They all brush their teeth, eat KFC and browse Youtube.....

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17 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

Which would you choose? The marjas you stated or an a layman like Mohammad?

Again, if you are going to compare 6th century with the 21st Century .. it's not going to lead this conversation anywhere... just hold your breathe.. his highness  Imam Mahdi (AS) will blow your mind away... he is going to be most modern dude of 21st Century. 

If you look at Prophet Muahmmad (SAW) he was the most modern dude of 6th Century....

Edited by ErikCartman

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6 minutes ago, Abbas. said:

No, I am not. Say, if a member of Jehovah's witness knocks your door.... would you welcome him? If an Ismaili/Mirza'i/waqifi presents an argument to you ..... would you be willing to consider it? They all brush their teeth, eat KFC and browse Youtube.....

I told I was so open minded, I even pondered over these faiths without them to visit me... got it????

I studies extensively.. on the same premise.... that I just didn't want to be a Shia Muslim just because I was born to a Shia family .... I asked myself what if Had I born to Sunni family? Had I ever converted to Shia?

Yes in that sense I am not Shia just because I was born to a one.

I have studies Marizai too... you name it bruv! :) He made few flawed arguments like calling himself Mahdi and Jesus at the same time... and also didn't have a character... that apparently I know... and he never added a 'tangible' thing as a 'nabi' nazubillah to religion... they are at best or worst another sect of Islam who went bit 'overboard'.

Edited by ErikCartman

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7 minutes ago, ErikCartman said:

Again, if you are going to compare 6th century with the 21st Century .. it's not going to lead this conversation... just hold your breathe.. his highness (AS) will blow your mind away... he is going to be most modern dude of 21st Century. 

If you look at Prophet Muahmmad (SAW) he was the most modern dude of 6th Century....

Maybe not, what if he was a simple farmer. There are still people who dont have access to any of what you mentioned.

What if he just had great wisdom and was illiterate ?

Which would you choose  and accept? The marja or the one who just has no degree qualifications but great wisdom?

 

Edited by certainclarity

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2 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

What if he just had great wisdom and was illiterate ?

 

Bruv!! Again you are going back to 6th Century ... you are making a supposition that only worked in 6th Century .... if Allah had to sent a Nabi in 2017 he will be top-notch like all of his Nabi were... in their period.... in 2017 who could be a top-notch hmmmm10 x phds.... and the most most modern one....

Edited by ErikCartman

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I obviously don't speak for others, but I suspect the answer for most of us would be no, as much as we may convince ourselves otherwise. 

Its a matter of common sense probability, even if it's unfortunate. 

Edited by magma

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31 minutes ago, ErikCartman said:

Bruv!! Again you are going back to 6th Century ... you are making a supposition that only worked in 6th Century .... if Allah had to sent a Nabi in 2017 he will be top-notch like all of his Nabi were... in their period.... in 2017 who could be a top-notch hmmmm10 x phds.... and the most most modern one....

Is our century the utmost technolgy from God's point of view?

A prophet could dress up and live the most primitive looking life, but his technology is way advanced then ours.

He may not need a mobile or a car to transport, and be gifted with super natural abilities which technology wont be able to match.

The issue is prophets dont require to attend hawza or uni for a phd degree, they are given the knowledge by God, and as you said, phd x 10 or more.

With all the modern technology in 2017, no one has achieved splitting the Ocean with a shaft like Moses did even way before Muhammad. Jesus revived the dead after 60 years of death, can modern technology and medicine compete with that although Jesus was even way before Muhammad?

So we are still behind Moses and Jesus up to this day even though they lived before the 6th century!

Our technology is like a joke for those prophets who lived way before even the 6th century lol

But thats not the point.

The point is, if a layman talked with more wisdom than a marja but has no degree to show you, would you accept the wiser explanation or ask him to show you a degree?

I don't know if you are aware, Avicenna's mentor in irfan was an illiterate man named Abu Saeed Abul kheyr!

I can bring you another real example right away. Not so long ago about an illitrate farmer, although most marjas said he was a miracle, most did not ask him questions out of fear.

His story is documented in Iran as an illiterate farmer, and complained against scholars.

Here is his brief documentary if you wish to see, his complain towards the end is something to really ponder on:

 

Edited by certainclarity

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1 hour ago, Abbas. said:

 

Have you been open-minded enough to consider other religions or ideas that are against the teachings of your forefathers?

:ideas-worth-pondering:

No with regards to other religions, but I have been inclined to adopt other ideas and teachings within the religion, that go against what I've been taught. 

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In the time of the prophet (pbuh) people generally became muslim for a few negative reasons:

- they were slaves who wanted to be free of slavery
- they were low class and wanted to be given respect
- they were alone and wanted companions
- they were poor and saw an opportunity for wealth

there were also people who became muslim for positive reasons

- they saw the Prophet (S) and knew he was truthful
- they believed his arguments and accepted his arguments
- they followed what their leaders did
- they came to debate, but were defeated

there was also a group of people who

- only believed in islam after witnessing miracles
- only believed in islam after the conquest of mecca

if I was born a kaffir, I think I would fall into the category of those who would try and debate, but would be defeated and forced to accept the truthfulness

Edited by DigitalUmmah

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2 minutes ago, Pearl178 said:

No with regards to other religions, but I have been inclined to adopt other ideas and teachings within the religion, that go against what I've been taught. 

If you have gone that far, why not go an extra mile of considering other religions too?

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Just now, Pearl178 said:

I think i'm too scared to go that far. The fear of not knowing what i'll find out. 

If the intention to go far enough is to please Allah and to remain steadfast to the principle of following the religion of reason/haq, why create obstacles of fear?

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18 minutes ago, magma said:

I obviously don't speak for others, but I suspect the answer for most of us would be no, as much as we may convince ourselves otherwise. 

Its a matter of common sense probability, even if it's unfortunate. 

Answer was a big NO. in 6th century as well

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Guest silasun

@Abbas. If you saw the Earth from space as curved would you question yourself if somebody said it was flat?

I do think, however, that often the "faith" of the faithful isn't really faith but just the result if amassing a tonne of cultural practices.

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How exactly we missed our Ali(as). Hmm even 1400 years later. We have yet to see a man who was as knowledgeable, mighty and warrior and politician, and techy. 

The sole point I am trying to make again. How exactly Allah will choose a person for a job who is not at least 100 light years ahead of you in 2017  like Ali was in 6th century   who was even lower in rank than prophet saw

All the confusion is because of the Dawah who are still stuck in 6th century using truth brush does not count as 21st century compatible. 

Yes if God had to sent a prophet and new religion it was going to be according to 2017 people and coveyed a message in suit in a pure American accent and perhaps some one more capable of than the CEO of Apple or google. 

All the confusion is because of 6th century traditions that have made it to 2017 by religious g folks. Like turbans I meant even Christian an Jews wore turbans back then it never had anything to do with Islam 

*mobile on

Edited by ErikCartman

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26 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

if I was born a kaffir, I think I would fall into the category of those who would try and debate, but would be defeated and forced to accept the truthfulness

Thats great!

So, if you were to have a discussion & debate and there were two top notch marja you have deep respect for and a unknown person without degree, and if He answers all you questions with full logic that blows your mind and even defeats your marja and prove them wrong , who would you accept and follow?

Edited by certainclarity

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1 hour ago, Abbas. said:

If our Prophet Muhammad (P.b.u.H) had been sent in this era, would you even consider His teachings?

If yes....

Have you been open-minded enough to consider other religions or ideas that are against the teachings of your forefathers?

:ideas-worth-pondering:

Only an idiot would disbelieve after witnessing miracles.

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11 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

So, if you were to have a discussion & debate and there were two top notch marja you have deep respect for and a unknown person without degree, and if He answers all you questions with full logic that blows your mind and even defeats your marja and prove them wrong , who would you accept and follow?

good question. 

If I was to ask someone who claimed to be Masum (as), I would ask a question that only a Masum (as) could answer. 

- Something personal about me that no one else could know
- something related to secret knowledge of the universe

along these sorts of questions. 

the respected Maraji would not be able to answer, while the Masum (S) definitely would. 

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