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Jafar moh

One explanation of the trinity?

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22 hours ago, iCambrian said:

Differences aside, why can't, hypothetically, God manifest himself in physical reality? In any fashion.

Because that would limit and divide God. Our understanding is that God is not limited and not divisible. He is without limit, He is one in terms of being whole and unique. 

That is our ideology, 

https://www.medinaminds.com/ali-ibn-abu-talib-tauheed/

 

 

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51 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

Because that would limit and divide God. Our understanding is that God is not limited and not divisible. He is without limit, He is one in terms of being whole and unique. 

That is our ideology, 

https://www.medinaminds.com/ali-ibn-abu-talib-tauheed/

 

 

If anything, believing God couldn't manifest in physical form would be limiting Him and His capabilities.

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God not being able to appear in physical form is not a limitation of God, it's a limitation of logic, i.e. it's a limitation of our minds. 

God is infinite and beyond modal existence. If he appears in the form of a human, that would mean he is in one place, and not in another place, thus contradicting his quality of infinity. We do not have an idea of, nor any way to describe something that is, at once, infinite and finite. 

If something is infinite, then no form can contain it, because it would be limited by the boundaries of the form. If something is finite, then it is not God(s.w.a). If you are indeed interested in the Islamic idea of God, Allah(s.w.a), here is a good video on the subject. It is more than a good video, anyone with a sincere belief in the One True God(s.w.a) will weep after listening to this. 

 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Ice forming in one place in the ocean, doesnt take away waters existence elsewhere in the ocean.

" If something is infinite, then no form can contain it, because it would be limited by the boundaries of the form. "

And for this, how could God, say...split the red sea without spilling an infinite amount of energy into it?  As an infinite being, he must be able to limit His manifestation so that he may operate in the physical world without annihilating it.

Edited by iCambrian

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2 hours ago, iCambrian said:

Ice forming in one place in the ocean, doesnt take away waters existence elsewhere in the ocean.

" If something is infinite, then no form can contain it, because it would be limited by the boundaries of the form. "

And for this, how could God, say...split the red sea without spilling an infinite amount of energy into it?  As an infinite being, he must be able to limit His manifestation so that he may operate in the physical world without annihilating it.

In a sense yes but Islam says he himself completely and wholly can't manifest himself in that complete way. But he can work through certain means to reach us because the defeciency is us not him. He is perfect. 

It is almost like a power plant if you want the power to your outlet to charge your iPhone the electricity has to go through phases you can't get it straight through the plant otherwise it would mess up your gadgetry and destroy it. The limitation is the phone not the plant. 

Thus we can understand God is the source of everything and powering existence itself. However such a being cannot manifest himself entirely into a limited form that itself is impossible however manifesting an attribute like beauty through a beautiful wife who takes off her abaya(inshallah) and hijab for the first time in front of her husband after just getting married is manifesting a single attribute through many means. 

But completely manifesting God entirely through a means itself is impossible logically cause as the brothers said previously that is limiting something that is unlimited. Like making 1+1=3 which as much as you like to believe just can't happen and isn't true.

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25 minutes ago, Al Hadi said:

In a sense yes but Islam says he himself completely and wholly can't manifest himself in that complete way.

Nobody believes that the physical body of Jesus alone is all there is to God. Rather He is one manifestation of a more expansive triune God.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, iCambrian said:

Ice forming in one place in the ocean, doesnt take away waters existence elsewhere in the ocean.

" If something is infinite, then no form can contain it, because it would be limited by the boundaries of the form. "

And for this, how could God, say...split the red sea without spilling an infinite amount of energy into it?  As an infinite being, he must be able to limit His manifestation so that he may operate in the physical world without annihilating it.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make in the first statement ? 

As for the second part, splitting the red sea isn't God(s.w.a) manifesting himself. It is a miracle, i.e. God(s.w.a) causing events to happen that don't normally happen(such as the sea seperating into two parts with dry land in between where there normally isn't dry land. 

God acting thru causes doesn't mean he 'becomes' the cause. See the video I posted for more info. 

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13 hours ago, iCambrian said:

If anything, believing God couldn't manifest in physical form would be limiting Him and His capabilities.

We believe that God's essence is limitless, and one, without parts. This is how He has defined himself from an Islamic perspective.

We are not saying that He can not be a man because He is not "strong" enough, or because He is limited, but because He is essentially One, without parts and unique, that is his essence. 

Would God act unjustly or against his essential qualities? For example, would He resign and make satan the new God of the creation?

We say He would not do that. Not because He is limited, but because it goes against what He has defined as His essence. 

So I think for example, we agree that God is essentially "good", that means He would not be evil, or spiteful. That does not limit Him.

I hope that makes sense.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

I have no idea what point you are trying to make in the first statement ? 

 

"God is infinite and beyond modal existence. If he appears in the form of a human, that would mean he is in one place, and not in another place, "

" Ice forming in one place in the ocean, doesnt take away waters existence elsewhere in the ocean. "

What I am saying is that, water of the ocean, taking the form of ice in one location, does not remove water of the ocean from existence elsewhere. If God appears as a human being, it does not mean he isnt still present elsewhere.

 

 

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Trinity is defined in the Christian Creed from the 4th century. Personally I do not believe it is so. On the other hand, if God were to explain his entire nature to us, I do not think we would be able to understand. God is God. Is it nesessary to know if he can or cannot appear to us as a Ghost, Man, Woman or a burning bush? 

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Interesting thing about Exodus 3, the burning bush. It starts with "The angel of the Lord" Then, The Lord, (Jehovah) saw Moses looking at the bush and God (Elohim) called out to Moses. It would seem that there are three entities at work here already.

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I was thinking of the story of Samson earlier. Toward the end of Samsons life and story, God projected His power through Samson. Samson, a physical human being, served as a conduit for God to manifest in the physical world. God didn't simply cause the philistine temple to collapse from afar. For a brief moment of time, He joined Samson in toppling the pillars. And when the physical body toppled those pillars, it wasn't Samson alone, it was God toppling those pillars.

When Christ died on the cross, taking in the sin of all of mankind for our salvation, this isn't merely a man dying on a cross. Rather, it is God joined with man, in one being, saving all of mankind.

the difference between Christ and Samson being that Samson, beyond his brief moment of heroism, was a regular person. While in Christ, that joined relationship, was continuous throughout his life from the miraculous birth to the ultimate martyrdom.

 

Edited by iCambrian

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6 hours ago, iCambrian said:

What I am saying is that, water of the ocean, taking the form of ice in one location, does not remove water of the ocean from existence elsewhere. If God appears as a human being, it does not mean he isnt still present elsewhere.

If God is one thing somewhere and something different somewhere else, how can we say He is one?

If I have a piece of paper and cut it in half, and post one piece to Australia. I'm left with half a piece of paper here, and half somewhere else. We would not call it one piece of paper anymore.

26 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

I was thinking of the story of Samson earlier. Toward the end of Samsons life and story, God projected His power through Samson. Samson, a physical human being, served as a conduit for God to manifest in the physical world. God didn't simply cause the philistine temple to collapse from afar. For a brief moment of time, He joined Samson in toppling the pillars. And when the physical body toppled those pillars, it wasn't Samson alone, it was God toppling those pillars.

When Christ died on the cross, taking in the sin of all of mankind for our salvation, this isn't merely a man dying on a cross. Rather, it is God joined with man, in one being, saving all of mankind.

the difference between Christ and Samson being that Samson, beyond his brief moment of heroism, was a regular person. While in Christ, that joined relationship, was continuous throughout his life from the miraculous birth to the ultimate martyrdom.

God increasing someones strength does not mean that God became part of that person, or that God IS that person. There's a big difference. These are all actions. God making Nabi Adam AS with no mother or father is an action or activity of God. We do not say that God became part of Nabi Adam AS. 

So God can increase someones strength, give them knowledge, or change the environment around them. It does not mean that God himself divides into parts to achieve this, because they are an action of God, and actions are different to essence.

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19 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

If God is one thing somewhere and something different somewhere else, how can we say He is one?

The same way h2o is one, though it can take the form of a liquid or solid.

 

19 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

 

God increasing someones strength does not mean that God became part of that person, or that God IS that person. There's a big difference. These are all actions. God making Nabi Adam AS with no mother or father is an action or activity of God. We do not say that God became part of Nabi Adam AS.

God may not have become the skin or muscle of Samson, rather He has joined Samson in a metaphysical way and has toppled the pillars. It wasn't Samson's physical human body that took action. it was God, using Samson as a conduit to manifest through the physical world to take action.

when it comes to Jesus, nobody is worshipping skin and muscle, they're worshipping God, as He has taken a physical form and used it as His conduit to interact with us.

19 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

So God can increase someones strength, give them knowledge, or change the environment around them. It does not mean that God himself divides into parts to achieve this, because they are an action of God, and actions are different to essence.

God doesn't need to divide into parts no more than an ocean is divided when water of the ocean freezes. Which is to say, not at all.

 

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In scripture it says " the spirit of The Lord came upon him". This doesn't mean God sat back and tossed Samson some metaphysical food to give him strength. It means God, in some form, joined Samson.

the spirit of The Lord came upon Samson, not the guy down the street. The spirit if The Lord interacted with Samson's physical body at a particular location in space and time. And God didn't need to break himself into pieces to do this.

Edited by iCambrian

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22 hours ago, iCambrian said:

Nobody believes that the physical body of Jesus alone is all there is to God. Rather He is one manifestation of a more expansive triune God.

 

 

 

In Islam we say humans can manifest certain attributes of God but we cant say we are a part of God himself or God himself a'uthubillah that would be impossible as well as some brothers said previous to me. God can work through certain means to reach us however those means don't ever become a part of God regardless cause he is one and anything that can be divided into different parts is not actually one.

 

7 hours ago, iCambrian said:

The same way h2o is one, though it can take the form of a liquid or solid.

 

God may not have become the skin or muscle of Samson, rather He has joined Samson in a metaphysical way and has toppled the pillars. It wasn't Samson's physical human body that took action. it was God, using Samson as a conduit to manifest through the physical world to take action.

when it comes to Jesus, nobody is worshipping skin and muscle, they're worshipping God, as He has taken a physical form and used it as His conduit to interact with us.

God doesn't need to divide into parts no more than an ocean is divided when water of the ocean freezes. Which is to say, not at all.

 

H20 is a concept used to describe a type of molecule that is made of other different elements the problem with using physical realities to discuss the ULTIMATE nonphysical reality is they themselves being limited concepts cannot do justice to describing the divine unlimited being.

H20 is one in a sense here at the molecular level but a block of Ice and a tub of water are two different things and aren't actually one and the same the Ice isn't water. In the example of Jesus the example is wrong because Jesus although is being powered by God is different from him and is not actually him just like another manifestation of his will is Muhammad(saw).

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1 hour ago, Al Hadi said:

In Islam we say humans can manifest certain attributes of God but we cant say we are a part of God himself or God himself a'uthubillah that would be impossible as well as some brothers said previous to me. God can work through certain means to reach us however those means don't ever become a part of God regardless cause he is one and anything that can be divided into different parts is not actually one.

If God can manifest through a human body, then there is no reason that Christ couldnt be God in the flesh.

If God can imbue and manipulate physical matter (such as in the case of Samson, where the spirit of God came upon Samson, dwelt within him and interacted with him to topple the philistine temple), there is no reason God could not present himself in the form of a human being on earth.

God did not need to break Himself into pieces to interact in a particular location of space and time, with Samson.

 

Quote

 

H20 is a concept used to describe a type of molecule that is made of other different elements the problem with using physical realities to discuss the ULTIMATE nonphysical reality is they themselves being limited concepts cannot do justice to describing the divine unlimited being.

H20 is one in a sense here at the molecular level but a block of Ice and a tub of water are two different things and aren't actually one and the same the Ice isn't water. In the example of Jesus the example is wrong because Jesus although is being powered by God is different from him and is not actually him just like another manifestation of his will is Muhammad(saw).

See above.

Edited by iCambrian

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Not sure how the water examples are going, but with H2O, regardless the state, there are still Hs and Os in the mix. The trinity of a water molecule. I'm not up on the nano s of it all either, but an atom is also three components. Regardless if the atom is part of a water structure, that bobs up and down in an ocean, or runs through a human body, you're talking protons, neutrons and electrons. The interesting thing is that between the nucleus and the path of electrons is...space. An actual orbit going on, which requires the space for movement.

Absolutely nothing can fill that space, except God, if He wills.  We have no idea. 

Edited by Son of Placid
an "n"

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5 hours ago, iCambrian said:

If God can manifest through a human body, then there is no reason that Christ couldnt be God in the flesh.

If God can imbue and manipulate physical matter (such as in the case of Samson, where the spirit of God came upon Samson, dwelt within him and interacted with him to topple the philistine temple), there is no reason God could not present himself in the form of a human being on earth.

God did not need to break Himself into pieces to interact in a particular location of space and time, with Samson.

 

See above.

If I help an old lady across the street, do I become an old lady ? 

If I could do anything, I guess I could but there's not reason for it. 

Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding this point ? 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

If I help an old lady across the street, do I become an old lady ? 

If I could do anything, I guess I could but there's not reason for it. 

Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding this point ? 

 

If you had a puppet and put on a show, and people applauded. Would they be applauding for the puppet or for you?

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Muslims think trinity is polytheism, Christians do not think so. God has not yet sent an official declaration written by his own hand, so why not just agree that Muslims and Christians disagree. Can we agree that God can forgive the part that did not understood the nature of his divinity correct?

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3 minutes ago, andres said:

Muslims think trinity is polytheism, Christians do not think so. God has not yet sent an official declaration written by his own hand, so why not just agree that Muslims and Christians disagree. Can we agree that God can forgive the part that did not understood the nature of his divinity correct?

Of course. I'm sure God enjoys our earnest attempts at understanding what is completely beyond our imagination, and mentioned as such in all our texts. We don't have to know what we can't know, but It's always nice to have a collective agreement as opposed to a " in the name of God", battle which I'm sure God does not enjoy.

Muslims believe God has 99 names. In each case the name is equivalent to an attribute.  None of them include parts nor partners, and that's where the, Jesus as the son of God, aka God concept starts to get a little sketchy in the Muslim mind. Can't blame them a bit.

Isn't it wonderful how the religions have this concept divided to the point each side is blasphemy to the other. 

What's problematic is that there are no conclusive arguments on either side and too many arguments inside the religions to ever figure anything out on their own. 

A point in time...Mary is overshadowed and God breathes of His spirit into her. That's Bible, that's Quran, call it fact...now explain what it means.

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6 hours ago, iCambrian said:

If you had a puppet and put on a show, and people applauded. Would they be applauding for the puppet or for you?

Yes but they would be wrong in saying the puppeteer is the puppet or vice versa that is what is impossible. God manifesting himself in a sense is not that manifestation becoming God or becoming a part of him its an action of his not him or even a part of him it is a manifestation that isn't needed at all even when you say manifestation as a Muslim we are careful in what that means  it manifested in a way where the manifestation itself was limited and not God that's why we cant call Jesus God.

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18 minutes ago, Al Hadi said:

Yes but they would be wrong in saying the puppeteer is the puppet or vice versa that is what is impossible. God manifesting himself in a sense is not that manifestation becoming God or becoming a part of him its an action of his not him or even a part of him it is a manifestation that isn't needed at all even when you say manifestation as a Muslim we are careful in what that means  it manifested in a way where the manifestation itself was limited and not God that's why we cant call Jesus God.

Jesus is recognized as Gods manifestation in the flesh.  As Ive said before, people arent worshiping Jesus' bones and skin. Theyre worshiping the divinity of God, in His manifested human form. If the toe nail of Jesus fell off, people would not worship it, just as nobody would applaud a puppet if the puppet fell off of the hand of the puppeteer.

And, this is also why Jesus is still praised today and considered to be living among us, even long after his physical body has left.

Edited by iCambrian

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9 hours ago, andres said:

Can we agree that God can forgive the part that did not understood the nature of his divinity correct?

Yes, it is very much possible. 

Let us try to analyze the quandary.

Firstly, it is plainly naïve to suggest that human beings can comprehend divine criteria in evaluating our performance. The Quran strongly rejects any such attempts by human beings. (Q. 13:40).

Secondly, it is plainly obvious that if I was born to Hindu parents, I would have been a Hindu; to Sikh parents I would have been a Sikh, to Jewish parents I would have been a Jew, to Catholic parents a Catholic and so on. It is obvious therefore that God will not judge human beings on the religion of their birth.

And looking at the statistics around us, there is only a very very small chance that I would have converted to another religion. And if I did, considering that every religion has its fair share of converts, I could very well be converting to the wrong religion, assuming that there is such a thing.   

So the difference between the various religions is essentially theoretical - that is all.

I would even venture to say that on the Day of Judgment, God might find a particular atheist more deserving of His forgiveness than many theists. And likewise, He might find a particular theist more deserving of His wrath than many atheists. 

So,if we think we are theists, let us live our lives as best as we can to please the Lord. And leave the rest to His impeccable judgment and wisdom.

I am sure you will agree that all the time we spend on the Internet castigating other religions and promoting our own could be better spent on far more productive things, like helping to promote peace in a war-torn and justice in an abuse-ridden planet.

I don't mean to say that you are one such person. In fact, I am sure you are not but it is such a universal and nauseating trend that I think it must be terribly displeasing to our common creator. Unless Dawkins is right that God is a myth, in which case, it doesn't really matter what we do. 

Edited by baqar

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On 1/16/2017 at 6:59 PM, iCambrian said:

Jesus is recognized as Gods manifestation in the flesh.  As Ive said before, people arent worshiping Jesus' bones and skin. Theyre worshiping the divinity of God, in His manifested human form. If the toe nail of Jesus fell off, people would not worship it, just as nobody would applaud a puppet if the puppet fell off of the hand of the puppeteer.

And, this is also why Jesus is still praised today and considered to be living among us, even long after his physical body has left.

What would you say about the thousands of Gods prophets who had similar missions to Jesus? Some bringing miracles, some bringing books etc.

Are they not manifestations of God as well in your view?

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On 1/16/2017 at 6:02 PM, baqar said:

Yes, it is very much possible. 

Let us try to analyze the quandary.

Firstly, it is plainly naïve to suggest that human beings can comprehend divine criteria in evaluating our performance. The Quran strongly rejects any such attempts by human beings. (Q. 13:40).

 

Hi baqar, nice to see you again.

 

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10 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

What would you say about the thousands of Gods prophets who had similar missions to Jesus? Some bringing miracles, some bringing books etc.

Are they not manifestations of God as well in your view?

This is all hypothetical but...

According to scripture, Jesus came, not just as a prophet, but as a savior for all of mankind, even for the prostitutes and the drug dealers, the poor and sick, even for people of other religions and the non religious.

When Jesus was crucified, He took the weight of all our sins, the sins of every human being, past, present and future, onto his shoulders. And took those sins to the grave.

In His resurrection, He defeated death. And even now, He is with us, seeking us out with a relentless love, in pursuit of our salvation.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

So, Jesus is considered different from other Prophets in that He was more than a translator of God's message and did more than perform miracles. Though He did feed the masses with limited fish and bread, healed the blind, resurrected the dead, walked on water etc., ultimately, His sacrifice was His greatest victory.

Thats about all Ive got.

In my personal view, Im a Christian, but really i dont think religion at large, can really be objectively demonstrated or proven.  I just hold these conversations to pose hypotheticals, just to think about things. And I dont think anyone here on earth, not even the most educated scholars, could really say just how it is God can or can not interact or manifest here on earth or with whom.

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On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 2:02 AM, baqar said:

Yes, it is very much possible. 

Let us try to analyze the quandary.

Firstly, it is plainly naïve to suggest that human beings can comprehend divine criteria in evaluating our performance. The Quran strongly rejects any such attempts by human beings. (Q. 13:40).

Secondly, it is plainly obvious that if I was born to Hindu parents, I would have been a Hindu; to Sikh parents I would have been a Sikh, to Jewish parents I would have been a Jew, to Catholic parents a Catholic and so on. It is obvious therefore that God will not judge human beings on the religion of their birth.

And looking at the statistics around us, there is only a very very small chance that I would have converted to another religion. And if I did, considering that every religion has its fair share of converts, I could very well be converting to the wrong religion, assuming that there is such a thing.   

So the difference between the various religions is essentially theoretical - that is all.

I would even venture to say that on the Day of Judgment, God might find a particular atheist more deserving of His forgiveness than many theists. And likewise, He might find a particular theist more deserving of His wrath than many atheists. 

So,if we think we are theists, let us live our lives as best as we can to please the Lord. And leave the rest to His impeccable judgment and wisdom.

I am sure you will agree that all the time we spend on the Internet castigating other religions and promoting our own could be better spent on far more productive things, like helping to promote peace in a war-torn and justice in an abuse-ridden planet.

I don't mean to say that you are one such person. In fact, I am sure you are not but it is such a universal and nauseating trend that I think it must be terribly displeasing to our common creator. Unless Dawkins is right that God is a myth, in which case, it doesn't really matter what we do. 

It is very obvious that most of us inherit the religion of our parents. Even more confusing it is that monotheism did not occure until the first milennium BC. This has long confused me. Did God plan it this way? Difficult questions that must not prevent us from doing what we think pleases God and our fellow humans. God gave us a consciense. As living conditions, laws and religion have changed through time and place, the conclusions of conscienses have varied. In many ways my consciense is more important than my Bible.

 

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7 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Hi baqar, nice to see you again.

Hi SoP

Nice to see you too. 

I have not been keeping too well but more importantly, I am, in principle, not very happy with the idea of religious discussions. I believe they are essentially meaningless.

That is probably the major reason why I decided to stay away for a while. 

But I don't see your father. Where is he?

I hope he is well, probably just taking a break like I did.

Please give him my regards.

He is undoubtedly one of the finest human beings I have ever met .

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On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎16 at 5:34 PM, andres said:

Muslims think trinity is polytheism, Christians do not think so. God has not yet sent an official declaration written by his own hand, so why not just agree that Muslims and Christians disagree. Can we agree that God can forgive the part that did not understood the nature of his divinity correct?

So why is it that many trinitarians become unitarians? Perhaps, they use their 'aql. I honestly feel that unitarians are closer to us. We can agree to disagree and of course, have an interfaith dialogue - No problem. But, if you study our creed, it's necessary to do takfir on the mushrikeen and kuffaar. Those who don't believe that majority of the Christians are kuffaar / claim that Christians of today are believers and don't proclaim takfir on them cannot be considered as Muslims since he goes against the clear bayan of God.

Since [according to Christians] all the three persons of the trinity are equally divine, jesus is fully human and fully divine and so forth is clear shirk and kufr. Muslims are not allowed for the sake of interfaith dialogue to reject clear statements that exist in the Qur'aan. If you claim that Jesus is fully human and fully divine, then you're a mushrik and a kaafir.

5:14 And from those who have said: "We are Christians," We have taken their covenant and they have forgotten much of what they were reminded of; so We planted between them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection; and God will inform them of what they had done.

5:15 O people of the Book, Our messenger has come to you to clarify for you much of what you were hiding from the Book, and to pardon over much. A light has come to you from God and a clarifying Book.

5:16 God guides with it whoever follows His acceptance, to the ways of peace; and it brings them out of the darkness and into the light with His permission; and it guides them to a straight path.

5:17 Disbelievers indeed are those who have said: "God is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: "Who has any power against God if He had wanted to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother, and all who are on the earth!" And to God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is in-between; He creates what He pleases. God is capable of all things.

5:18 And the Jews and the Christians said: "We are the children of God, and His loved ones." Say: "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" No, you are merely mortals which He has created. He forgives whom He pleases, and He punishes whom He pleases. And to God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is in-between, and to Him is the Destiny.

5:72 Disbelievers indeed are those who have said: "God is the Messiah, son of Mary." And the Messiah said: "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets up partners with God, then God will restrict Paradise from him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."

:salam: 

Edited by Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail

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28 minutes ago, Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail said:

So why is it that many trinitarians become unitarians? 

5:18 And the Jews and the Christians said: "We are the children of God, and His loved ones." Say: "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" No, you are merely mortals which He has created. 

 

:salam: 

Not all Christians believe in trinity, some become unitarians. I do not believe in trinity, but I am not a Unitarian. Actually I do not find the issue important.

Concerning 5:18. If the Quran understands "children of God" as this verse says, the Quran has got Christian faith very wrong. But maybe we shall not read this verse literally(?)

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On 1/18/2017 at 9:33 AM, Kamaaluddeen al-Ismail said:

5:18 And the Jews and the Christians said: "We are the children of God, and His loved ones." Say: "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" No, you are merely mortals which He has created. He forgives whom He pleases, and He punishes whom He pleases. And to God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is in-between, and to Him is the Destiny.

5:72 Disbelievers indeed are those who have said: "God is the Messiah, son of Mary." And the Messiah said: "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets up partners with God, then God will restrict Paradise from him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."

The Jews say it because the Israelites were considered the children of God, the Christians say it because they were also taught a loving Father. No use getting overly worried about a metaphorical, (actually spiritual) family structure.

Jesus called God His Father continually, usually followed by "Who is in heaven", thus God became a Heavenly Father. Jesus said, "When you pray, pray like this...Our Father, who art in Heaven..." Christianity has a more dynamic approach in it's beliefs in the way prayer is often unrehearsed, but it is directed at God, not Jesus. Jesus is mentioned because He said, "What you ask in my name...", and there is an expectancy to realize an outcome. Whether properly interpreted is another thing.

I find it interesting that Muhammad never seemed to have that relationship with God, maybe because the message was conveyed through Gabriel? Maybe because of the emphasis put on Jesus, son of Mary, not being the actual son of God. 

Christians are also taught;

Hebrews 12: 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye [Edited Out]s, and not sons.

 

Answers the question, Then why does He punish you for your sins?

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