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Why are Shias so hated?

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4 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

WHY?

Its very important. Its not just the variation in translation but its clear cut forgery. Which has totally changed the meaning. Variation in translation is acceptable only if overall meaning wont change.

The source from where you have copied this is not reliable at all. Letter 6 is clear refutation to shias which they have forged. Since you are not following the clear words of Imam ALi a.s so now there is no point in further discussion.

No one is immune from making mistakes. No one except Allah. and remember mistakes and sins are two different things.

First you made takfir of sahabah and now attacking me with blasphemy. What's next brother.

If your Ashab are like Son of Nuh who deviated from their Prophet, And if I say them to be disobedient and disbelievers what is wrong in it ? is not it truth ? Did they not recite Kalima and Kalima is an oath that we believe in Prophet whatever he (PBUHHP) says ? So, where was their Oath ? Abu Bakar, Umar, Uthman made Shura without the consent of Prophet, Abu Bakar Snatched Fidak from the daughter of Prophet and designated Yazid bin Abu sufyan as the governor, took away Caliphate from Ali, Burnt the house of Ahlul bait. Umar helped Abu Bakar in his cause, he gave governorship of Syria to Muawiya after death of his brother and abrogated Two Muttah's and innovated "Tarawiah" which he termed as "Beautiful innovation". Uthman created such fuss in the land that during his time prominent Ashab were persecuted, Abu Zar Ghifari was expelled and people of Egypt surrounded his house when after that he sought help of Imam Ali a.s and Imam Ali a.s asked him to repent for his mistakes. He repented for his mistakes and again went back and got in the problem again when people assassinated him. Afterwards, all Ashab gathered to Ali so that he may save them from Muawiya, all pledged allegiance to him and then Hazrat Ayesha r.a, Talha and Zubayr waged war against him, how did Hazrat Ayesha r.a came out of house while she did not get permission from Prophet to go out of home ? 

So, above mentioned, all are crimes are still no reason for you ??????? Are they not sufficient to prove them what they wanted ?????

And, I am not blaming you, I am exposing weakness of your belief that Shura was sanctioned by prophet. Lol, this is an absolute blasphemy. 

 

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@Fahad Sani

About those who turned apostate after the Prophet PBUHHP

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 76:  (Al-Riqaq)

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 585:

Narrated Abu Hazim from Sahl bin Sa'd:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor (forerunner) at the Lake-Fount, and whoever will pass by there, he will drink from it and whoever will drink from it, he will never be thirsty. There will come to me some people whom I will recognize, and they will recognize me, but a barrier will be placed between me and them." Abu Hazim added: An-Nu'man bin Abi 'Aiyash, on hearing me, said. "Did you hear this from Sahl?" I said, "Yes." He said, " I bear witness that I heard Abu Said Al-Khudri saying the same, adding that the Prophet said: 'I will say: They are of me (i.e. my followers). It will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you left'. I will say, 'Far removed, far removed (from mercy), those who changed (their religion) after me." Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam)."

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 587:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were brought close to me), and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to them), 'Come along.' I asked, 'Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah' I asked, 'what is wrong with them' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.' Then behold! (Another) group (of my followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from (me and them) he said (to them); Come along.' I asked, "Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah.' I asked, What is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left. So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few who were like camels without a shepherd."

 

 

Edited by Irfan1214

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On 1/8/2017 at 5:18 AM, Irfan1214 said:

What takfir, takfir, takfir ? If anyone who disobeys Allah and His messenger even if he has seen him, is he liable to be respected though he was disobedient ? What happened to son of Hazrat Nuh a.s ? Did he not sank into water and God said to Hazrat Nuh that it is not from among you. And what happened to wife of Hazrat Lut a.s, was she saved from the punishment of Allah (SWT). And why did Hazrat Moses a.s grabbed Hazrat Haroon a.s from his beard when he saw that people became idolaters when he returned to his nation.

Now, I understand what you are going to do. You know now that these whom you respect were not right but even though you want to put a emotional cloth over eyes of the people showing that see, this person hates Ashab and Curses them. So, prove them to be Ashab of Prophet PBUHHP first ? where you have failed. 

If you accept the mistakes of Abu Bakar, Umar and Uthman, why are you arguing then matter is finished ? We won even if you do not declare, we do not follow sinners and ungrateful persons that is what Quran says. 

:)

Its not about just abu bakr r.a, umar r.a and uthman r.a. Its about muhajirun and Ansaar whose majority accepted them as their caliph. Which you are not understanding.

Here is what Quran say about those muhajirun and ansaar.

 وَالسَّابِقُونَ الْأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُمْ بِإِحْسَانٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي تَحْتَهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ
And as for the first and foremost of those who have forsaken the domain of evil and of those who have sheltered and succored the Faith as well as those who follow them in [the way of] righteousness - God is well-pleased with them, and well-pleased are they with Him. And for them has He readied gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide beyond the count of time: this is the triumph supreme! [Tauba 100]

Instead of following them and their path you are calling them kafir. Let me tell you Abu bakr r.a was the fourth one who accepted Islam after Umm Khadija s.a, Imam Ali a.s, Zaid bin Haritha r.a then Abu bakr r.a. He was among the first and foremost muhajireen.

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On 1/8/2017 at 5:22 AM, Irfan1214 said:

@Fahad Sani

You mean that do I believe that there were some people who turned away from their way after Prophet (PBUHHP). Well, if this mean takfir, then I tell you that there were people in the time of Prophet who turned away from their path and for them Surah Munafiqoon was revealed. Have you read Surah Munafiqoon, if you have read then why are you asking me if I believe in or not, Quran does. If Quran believes then I do believe that there were munafiqeen. 

Categories of muhajirun and ansaar and of munafiqeen are different.

[Tauba 100-102]

And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.

And among those around you of the bedouins are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment.

And [there are] others who have acknowledged their sins. They had mixed a righteous deed with another that was bad. Perhaps Allah will turn to them in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

 

 

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On 1/8/2017 at 6:08 AM, Irfan1214 said:

@Fahad Sani

About those who turned apostate after the Prophet PBUHHP

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 76:  (Al-Riqaq)

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 585:

Narrated Abu Hazim from Sahl bin Sa'd:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor (forerunner) at the Lake-Fount, and whoever will pass by there, he will drink from it and whoever will drink from it, he will never be thirsty. There will come to me some people whom I will recognize, and they will recognize me, but a barrier will be placed between me and them." Abu Hazim added: An-Nu'man bin Abi 'Aiyash, on hearing me, said. "Did you hear this from Sahl?" I said, "Yes." He said, " I bear witness that I heard Abu Said Al-Khudri saying the same, adding that the Prophet said: 'I will say: They are of me (i.e. my followers). It will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you left'. I will say, 'Far removed, far removed (from mercy), those who changed (their religion) after me." Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam)."

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 587:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were brought close to me), and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to them), 'Come along.' I asked, 'Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah' I asked, 'what is wrong with them' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.' Then behold! (Another) group (of my followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from (me and them) he said (to them); Come along.' I asked, "Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah.' I asked, What is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left. So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few who were like camels without a shepherd."

 

 

Hadith says "some people or group of people". While you said earlier that except few all turned away. Also names are not mentioned in narration. This does not mean you can apply this on anyone you want. There are many exceptions to this. One such is in surah Tauba 100-102.

Here is exactly what you said:

On 1/7/2017 at 11:38 AM, Irfan1214 said:

Secondly, yes they turned unbelievers except few, when they supported snatching away of Fidak and taking away of Caliphate from Imam Ali a.s. Do you still believe that abandoning what Prophet PBUHHP said still leaves people Muslims, they deliberately did that.

First understand Surah Tauba 100-102 then you will easily understand above ahadith.

Also keep in these narrations.

297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق  ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef from Ibn Alwan from Imam Jafar ibn Sadiq from his Father  from Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him:  "We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with  them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and  they see that they are upon truth."

[Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 297]

إن عليا لم يكن ينسب أحدا من أهل حربه إلى الشرك ولا إلى النفاق ولكنه كان يقول: هم أخواننا بغوا علينا  - 298

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s said:

“Ali didn't attribute anyone from those who fought against him to  shirk or hypocrisy, but he said: “The are our brothers, which rebel  against us”.

[Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 298]

 

W.salam wa rehmatullah,

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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

:)

Its not about just abu bakr r.a, umar r.a and uthman r.a. Its about muhajirun and Ansaar whose majority accepted them as their caliph. Which you are not understanding.

Here is what Quran say about those muhajirun and ansaar.

 وَالسَّابِقُونَ الْأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُمْ بِإِحْسَانٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي تَحْتَهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ
And as for the first and foremost of those who have forsaken the domain of evil and of those who have sheltered and succored the Faith as well as those who follow them in [the way of] righteousness - God is well-pleased with them, and well-pleased are they with Him. And for them has He readied gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide beyond the count of time: this is the triumph supreme! [Tauba 100]

Instead of following them and their path you are calling them kafir. Let me tell you Abu bakr r.a was the fourth one who accepted Islam after Umm Khadija s.a, Imam Ali a.s, Zaid bin Haritha r.a then Abu bakr r.a. He was among the first and foremost muhajireen.

Hahahaha, do you mean that Abu Bakar, umar and uthman forsaken evil while their actions suggest that they never forsake it. So, this verse is not for them but for salmon,  Abu dhar, miqdad and those who were with Ali and never paid allegiance to Abu Bakar.

Secondly, I say whoever paid allegiance to Abu Bakar, umar and uthman knowing their position and character and qualification willfully except those who were ignorant or forced, are accountable for supporting them and are with them in their sins. Even if you agree to his position today, you are standing with him and will be asked why you supported a wrong doer.

If you think that Allah cares for majority, do not foul yourself. He  (AWJ) has destroyed many nations for their disobedience to a single prophet. Read Quran for it. 

Edited by Irfan1214

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:bismillah:

One of the most famous allegations on Shia sect is that they believe that Sahaba (companions) of Holy Propeht (asws) are Murtads (apostates), and this means that they believe that they quit Islam.

In this short work, We would review these narrations, and see if actually the narrations mean how they are being interpretted, i.e, Quitting of Islam.

The first narration which is quoted in this regard, is a narration from Al-Kafi

.

٣٤١- حنان ، عن أبيه، عن أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) قال: كان الناس أهل ردة بعد النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله) إلا ثلاثة فقلت:

ومن الثلاثة؟ فقال: المقداد بن الأسود وأبوذر الغفاري وسلمان الفارسي رحمة الله وبركاته عليهم، ثم عرف اناس بعد يسير وقال: هؤلاء الذين دارت عليهم الرحا وأبوا أن يبايعوا

حتى جاؤوا بأمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) مكرها فبايع وذلك قول الله تعالى: «وما محمد إلا رسول قد

خلت من قبله الرسل أفإن مات أو قتل انقلبتم على أعقابكم ومن ينقلب على عقبيه فلن يضر الله

شيئا وسيجزي الله الشاكرين

 

341- Hannan , from his father, from Abi Ja’far (asws) who said: “The people were Ahle Radda (أهل ردة) after the Prophet (asws) except three.”

So I asked: “And who were the three?”

So he (asws) said: “Al Miqdad b. al Aswad, Abu Dhar Ghafari and Salman Farsi (Allah’s mercy and blessing be upon them), then the people realized after progressing (of time).” And he said: “These were those upon whom rested the quern and they refused to pledge allegiance till they came to Ali (asws) in compulsion, then they pledged allegiance, and that is the saying of Allah (in al Qur’an 3: 144): Muhammad is no more than an apostle: many Were the apostle that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah. but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.” (1)

.

Now, in this narration, we see that the word used is (أهل ردة)

And this narration is talking about Right of Imam Ali as clear from the words

.

ثم عرف اناس بعد يسير وقال: هؤلاء الذين دارت عليهم الرحا وأبوا أن يبايعوا

حتى جاؤوا بأمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) مكرها فبايع

.

Allama Majlisi pointed to this as well, and said

.

قوله عليه السلام:” ثم عرف أناس بعد يسير”

أن الحق مع علي فرجعوا إليه

 .

Saying of Imam that People came to know with passage of time that Haq/truth is with Imam Ali (asws) and so they returned to him (2)

.

Let us see another narration, and this one is taken from Sheikh Kashi’s work

.

علي بن الحكم، عن سيف بن عميرة عن أبي بكر الحضرمي، قال : قال أبو جعفر (عليه السلام) ارتد الناس إلا ثلاثة نفر سلمان و أبو ذر و المقداد. قال : قلت فعمار ؟

 قال : قد كان جاض جيضة ثم رجع، ثم قال إن أردت الذي لم يشك و لم يدخله شي‏ء فالمقداد، فأما سلمان فإنه عرض في قلبه عارض أن عند أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) اسم الله الأعظم لو تكلم به لأخذتهم الأرض و هو هكذا فلبب و وجئت عنقه حتى تركت كالسلقة فمر به أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) فقال له يا أبا عبد الله هذا من ذاك بايع فبايع و أما أبو ذر فأمره أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) بالسكوت و لم يكن يأخذه في الله لومة لائم فأبى إلا أن يتكلم فمر به عثمان فأمر به، ثم أناب الناس بعد فكان أول من أناب أبو ساسان الأنصاري و أبو عمرة و شتيرة و كانوا سبعة، فلم يكن يعرف حق أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) إلا هؤلاء السبعة.

 .

Imam Abu Jafar (asws) said that People did Irtidaad except for 3: Salman, Abu Dhar, Miqdaad

I asked: What about Ammar?

He (asws) replied: He erred a bit but then returned.

Then He (asws) said: If you wish to know who never had any doubt in his heart, he was Miqdaad. As regards to Salman, his heart also got involved since he thought that Imam Ali (asws) has The Great Name of Allah (اسم الله الأعظم) and if He prays with that, land will swallow these people. So then he was caught and rope was placed in his throat which injured his neck. Imam Ali passed by him and said: This is because of this, give bayat/allegiance/oath. So he did that. And as regards to Abu Dhar, Imam Ali told him to keep quiet, and do not speak so that none take hold of you. But he spoke and Uthman ordered him to get out of there. then people came back, and those who came first were Abu Sasan, Abu Umra and Shatera. None knew the right of Imam Ali (asws) except for these 7 (3)

.

Regardless of the weakness in chain of narration (4), two important points in this narration are that the word used Irtidaad; and the narration is mainly talking about right of Imam Ali (asws), as mentioned by the words

.

فلم يكن يعرف حق أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) إلا هؤلاء السبعة.

.

So in both of these narrations, we see that the context being used it “Rights of Imam Ali (asws)”.

There are certain other narrations as well, like we find Kashi writing

.

17 – محمد بن إسماعيل قال حدثني الفصل بن شاذان عن ابن أبي عمير عن إبراهيم بن عبد الحميد عن أبي بصير قال : قلت لأبي عبد الله ارتد الناس الا ثلاثة أبو ذر وسلمان والمقداد قال : فقال أبو عبد الله ع : فأين أبو ساسان وأبو عمرة الأنصاري ؟

 .

Imam Abu Abdullah asws was asked regarding Irtidaad of people except for three, Abu Dhar, Salman and Miqdaad. He asws replied: Where are Abu Sasan and Abu Umra al Ansari (5)

.

There are certain other narrations like that we find in Kitab Sulaym bin Qaisand Al Ikhtisaas , however, there are doubts on the authenticity of these two books, so we will not talk of those narrations as such.

.

Now, let us talk about the words (ارتداد) and (اھل ردۃ) as to what is their meaning and if these words have been used in authentic narrations of Ahlusunnah for Sahaba.

.

In this regard, we find that famous scholar of Ahlusunnah, Ibn Manzoor, who writes in his book, Lisan-ul-Arab

.

والردة : الاسم من الارتداد . وفي حديث القيامة والحوض فيقال : إنهم لم يزالوا مرتدين على أعقابهم أي : متخلفين عن بعض الواجبات

Al Ridda: This is the noun in Al-Irtadaad. And in narration regarding Qayamat and Pond, it is said: ‘They apostated after you left them. This means: They disobeyed certain compulsory acts (6)

 

Ibn Athir also mentioned this in his book, Al Nihaya fi Ghareeb ul Hadeeth wal Athar, 2/214

.

These narrations are authentic in view of Ahlusunnah, and are present in Sahih al Bukhari

.

حدثنا أبو الوليد: حدثنا شعبة: أخبرنا المغيرة بن النعمان قال: سمعت سعيد بن جبير، عن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما قال: خطب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: (يا أيها الناس، إنكم محشورون إلى الله حفاة عراة غرلا، ثم قال: {كما بدأنا أول خلق نعيده وعدا علينا إنا كنا فاعلين}. إلى آخر الآية، ثم قال: ألا وإن أول الخلائق يكسى يوم القيامة إبراهيم، ألا وإنه يجاء برجال من أمتي فيؤخذ بهم ذات الشمال، فأقول: يا رب أصيحابي، فيقال: إنك لا تدري ما أحدثوا بعدك، فأقول كما قال العبد الصالح: {وكنت عليهم شهيدا ما دمت فيهم فلما توفيتني كنت أنت الرقيب عليهم وأنت على كل شيء شهيد}. فيقال: إن هؤلاء لم يزالوا مرتدين على أعقابهم منذ فارقتهم)

 .

Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah’s Apostle delivered a sermon and said, “O people! You will be gathered before Allah bare-footed, naked and not circumcised.” Then (quoting Quran) he said: “As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. A promise We have undertaken: Truly we shall do it..” (21.104)

The Prophet then said, “The first of the human beings to be dressed on the Day of Resurrection, will be Abraham. Lo! Some men from my followers will be brought and then will drive them to the left side (Hell-Fire). I will say. ‘O my Lord! (They are) my companions!’ Then a reply will come (from Almighty), ‘You do not know what they did after you.’ I will say as the pious slave (the Prophet Jesus) said: And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them. When You took me up. You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to all things.’ (5.117) Then it will be said, “These people have continued to be apostates since you left them.” (7)

.

Here the word used is clearly

.

مرتدين

.

Similarly, we find in another narration

.

فَأَقُولُ : يَا رَبِّ ، أَصْحَابِي ، فَيَقُولُ : ” إِنَّكَ لَا عِلْمَ لَكَ بِمَا أَحْدَثُوا بَعْدَكَ ، إِنَّهُمُ ارْتَدُّوا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِمُ الْقَهْقَرَى

 .

So Prophet would say: They are my companions. It would be said: You do not know what they did after you, ‘They turned apostate as renegades after you left (8)

.

Here, the word which can be seen is

.

ارْتَدُّوا

.

Interestingly, there is a chapter in Sahih Muslim, named

.

باب بيان معنى قول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم لا ترجعوا بعدي كفارا يضرب بعضكم رقاب بعض

 .

CHAPTER: DON’T BECOME UNBELIEVERS AFTER ME BY STRIKING THE NECKS OF ONE ANOTHER (9)

.

And in this chapter, we find some narrations which speak about this issue

.

65 حدثنا أبو بكر بن أبي شيبة ومحمد بن المثنى وابن بشار جميعا عن محمد بن جعفر عن شعبة ح وحدثنا عبيد الله بن معاذ واللفظ له حدثنا أبي حدثنا شعبة عن علي بن مدرك سمع أبا زرعة يحدث عن جده جرير قال قال لي النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في حجة الوداع استنصت الناس ثم قال لا ترجعوا بعدي كفارا يضرب بعضكم رقاب بعض وحدثنا عبيد الله بن معاذ حدثنا أبي حدثنا شعبة عن واقد بن محمد عن أبيه عن ابن عمر عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم بمثله

 .

It is narrated on the authority of Jarir b. ‘Abdullah that the Prophet of Allaah (may peace and blessings be upon him) asked him on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage to make the people silent and then said: Do not return to unbelief after me by striking the necks of one another. (10)

.

So, we see that here the wordings of Kafir are present.

.

كفار

.

Keep in mind that this was the order of Holy Prophet asws to Sahaba. And battle of Jamal and Siffen are evident proofs that this order was not followed.

.

Of course, these things have never been told to Simple minded Sunnis, since Scholars of Ahlusunnah never like to tell them that Sahaba would disobey Prophet (asws) in such a thing in which He (asws) warned them of Kufr. Sunni scholars and their publishers went to the extent that they did tehreef/tempered Sahih Muslim skipping the name of this chapter (11). Also, Nauwi tried to give 7 different interpretations for this. But this is not our subject.

.

What is quite clear from these narrations is, that the words of Irtidaad, Murtad, Kafir are present in authentic narrations of Ahlusunnah for Sahaba.

.

So, will this not be a good idea for Scholas of Ahlusunnah that they mention these narrations to their audiences, rather than concentrating on the words ofIrtidaad and Ahlu Radda being used in Shiite narrations???

 

 

 

 =================================

 

FOOTNOTES

 

.

1- Al Kafi, Vol 8, page 246-247

.

2- Miraat-ul-Uqool, Vol 26, page 214

.

3- Ikhtiyaar Maarifat ur Rijal, Vol 1, page 52

.

4- Famous Shia scholar, Sheikh Jafar Subhani said in his book, Adu a’ala A’qaid us Shia al Imamia, (أضواء على عقائد الشيعة الإمامية) page 523

.

وكفى في ضعفها أن الكشي من أعلام القرن الرابع الهجري القمري ، فلا يصح أن يروي عن علي بن الحكم ، سواء أكان المراد منه الأنباري الراوي عن ابن عميرة المتوفى عام ( 217 ه‍ ) أو كان المراد الزبيري الذي عده الشيخ من أصحاب الرضا ( عليه السلام ) المتوفى عام 203 ه‍ .

It is sufficient to prove its weakness in that Kashi was a scholar of 4th century, so it is not correct that He can narrated from Ali bin Hakam. If we take that it is (Ali bin Hakam al anbari) who narrates from Ibn Umaira, He died in year 217 Hijri. And if we take that it means Zubairi, who was counted in companions of Imam Raza asws, then he died in year 203 hijri

.

Some people made this claim that chain between Kashi and Ali bin Hakam is proven as authentic, however, it must be kept in mind that Kashi has different chains to Ali bin Hakam. Let us see an example from Ikhtiyar Maarifat ur Rijal,1/235 (اختيار معرفة الرجال),

.

(93) – محمد بن مسعود، قال حدثني علي بن محمد، قال حدثني محمد بن أحمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الشقري، عن علي بن الحكم،

  .

Concentrate on MOhammad bin Shiqri. He has been termed Majhool/unknow by Agha Jawahiri in his Al Mufid

.

980 – محمد بن الشقري : روى عن علي بن الحكم عن فضیل بن عثمان عن أبي الزبیر – 10953 – 10958

 قال : رأیت جابرا یتوكأ على عصاه وھو یدور في

 سكك المدینة ومجالسھم وھو یقول علي خیر البشر فمن أبى فقد كفر . . . ” - مجھول -

.

And, therefore, We have no clue as to what is the chain of Sheikh Kashi to Ali bin Hakam in this particular narration, which proves its weakness.

.

5- Ikhtiyar Maarifat ur Rijal, Vol 1, page 38

.

6- Lisan ul Arab, vol 3, page 173

.

7- Sahih Bukhari, Book of Tafseer. Online link for English translation

.

8- Sahih Bukhari, Kitab ur Riqaq, Chapter on Haud. Online link

.

9- Sahih Muslim, Book of Faith. Online link for the English translation of the chapter

.

10- Same as (9). This narration is also narrated by Ibn Umar in the same chapter of Sahih Muslim. Also, this narration is also present in Sahih al Bukhari, Book of Hajj, and there it is narrated by Ibn Abbass. Here is the online link for the book

.

And the wordings translated by the English translators are:-

.

It is incumbent upon those who are present to convey this information to those who are absent Beware don’t renegade (as) disbelievers (turn into infidels) after me, Striking the necks (cutting the throats) of one another.’ “

.

11- I have given Scans from Sahih Muslim, translated by Allama Wahid uz Zaman, published in Pakistan by Khalid Ihsaan Publishers, in August, 2004, where in they have done this tehreef/temperation

.

See this link

http://ahlubait.wordpress.com/2012/12/24/tehreef-in-urdu-version-of-sahih-muslim-2/

 

http://www.wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3209:a-review-of-shiite-narrations-on-{“apostosy=”-of-sahaba}=&catid=203&lang=en&Itemid=115

 

And Allah SWT knows best

Wsalam

  •  

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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

Hadith says "some people or group of people". While you said earlier that except few all turned away. Also names are not mentioned in narration. This does not mean you can apply this on anyone you want. There are many exceptions to this. One such is in surah Tauba 100-102.

Here is exactly what you said:

First understand Surah Tauba 100-102 then you will easily understand above ahadith.

Also keep in these narrations.

297 - ب : ابن طريف عن ابن علوان عن جعفر عن أبيه أن عليا ( عليه السلام ) كان يقول لاهل حربه : إنا لم نقاتلهم على التكفير لهم ولم نقاتلهم على التكفير لنا ولكنا رأينا أنا على حرق  ورأوا أنهم على حق

Ibn Tareef from Ibn Alwan from Imam Jafar ibn Sadiq from his Father  from Ali (alaihi salam) who said about those who fought against him:  "We don’t fight with them due to their takfir, and don’t fight with  them due to their takfir of us. But we see that we are upon truth, and  they see that they are upon truth."

[Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 297]

إن عليا لم يكن ينسب أحدا من أهل حربه إلى الشرك ولا إلى النفاق ولكنه كان يقول: هم أخواننا بغوا علينا  - 298

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s said:

“Ali didn't attribute anyone from those who fought against him to  shirk or hypocrisy, but he said: “The are our brothers, which rebel  against us”.

[Bihar al-Anwar 32/324, No. 298]

 

W.salam wa rehmatullah,

In Quran, it is written that many people will go to hell because of believing in wrong Imams.

A group which will be brought are the among the companions are the wrong imams and whosoever follow those will go along them. Now, it is pretty clear that who wrong imams are that forsake religion after Prophet.

Now, you speak of Bihar al Anwar,  this book is under study for verification purpose. However, considering your words which you quote from Bihar al Anwar as to be authentic,  I would like to tell you that neither our imams nor us are hasty in calling a man mushrik or kafir to hurt them like you call shias now and then as kafir and mushrik.  It is enough to note that Imam calls them "Rebels" which is affirmed by earlier hadith which says that people will be thrown into hell because of being rebellious to Prophet and were called renegades.

As of Imam sadiq a.s, he says we are correct and your pioneer Imam Abu Hanifa was his disciple and never can prove Imam sadiq was not right. So, if Imam says we think we are right. It means other is wrong. But we do not intend to cause harm to you and have respect for you as human beings.

Edited by Irfan1214

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On 7-1-2017 at 2:54 PM, Irfan1214 said:

What you are saying is a lie, because Allah (SWT) curses and does not allows one to say bad words. Malik e Ashtar was taught by Ali a.s, he does not abuse but he used to curse him and I know this because it is an act which is in Quran. I do not abuse, but I do curse. 

It's been narrated in the books that way.. I'm merely quoting, not lying.

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1 hour ago, P. Ease said:

It's been narrated in the books that way.. I'm merely quoting, not lying.

Ok show me that with reference. So, that I may know that by myself.

And even if it is true, it showed people difference between a high person and a low person. Muawyiya ibn Abu Sufiyan issued orders to talk bad about Imam Ali a.s so as which was closed during the time of Umar bin Abdul Aziz. While Imam Ali a.s tried to stop Malik al Ashtar from abusing him. It may be because Hazrat Malik Al Ashtar wanted to show people how their Imam is and how Muawiya was. And we do not abuse anyone but we curse them which is Islamic and Quranic. So, is there is nothing you can do about cursing which Quran has legitimized. 

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Quote

Here is what Quran say about those muhajirun and ansaar.

 وَالسَّابِقُونَ الْأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُمْ بِإِحْسَانٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي تَحْتَهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ
And as for the first and foremost of those who have forsaken the domain of evil and of those who have sheltered and succored the Faith as well as those who follow them in [the way of] righteousness - God is well-pleased with them, and well-pleased are they with Him. And for them has He readied gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide beyond the count of time: this is the triumph supreme! [Tauba 100]

Instead of following them and their path you are calling them kafir. Let me tell you Abu bakr r.a was the fourth one who accepted Islam after Umm Khadija s.a, Imam Ali a.s, Zaid bin Haritha r.a then Abu bakr r.a. He was among the first and foremost muhajireen.

Do you think God is well-pleased from any of them if they follow their sins even after the Nabi? How about Shaitan who was a pious and Allah (swt) was well-pleased with him before his kufr. This verse does only guarantee paradise for them where Allah (swt) will be well-pleased from that day they turned to Islam and keeped in right path till they died. 

Another problematic is Abu al-Ghadiyah who according the hadiths of Sunnis, he would receive paradise because he did ba’yah at Hudaybiyyah and was early Emigrants and the Helpers. This person actually was the killer of Ammar ibn Yasir (ra) (Musnad Ahmad” and “Isabah” v 4 p 14 and others). Why he is still protected by your scholars? Because it can't go against the sahih hadiths of muslim where prophet says that these companions that did bay'ah at Hudaybiyyah, fire will not touch him. What is the excuse for the protection? Ijtihad:

Hafiz ibn Hajar said that the battles between the Sahabah are based on Ijtihad and Ta’weel and the one who is right will have two rewards (and the mistaken will have a single reward), when this is the case of normal Mujtahid, then Sahabah deserve this more. (‘Isabah’ v 4 p 148)

What a wonderful system you have there.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Have a look around you, do muslims and shia muslims of today truely know who they really are? most of people religions are based on books or following of forefathers, nothing more nothing less, this is religion for us all today. Being a good human is harder then being a muslim or a shia muslim these days. 

We as shias are already aware of the hate others have on shias, even the enemies of ahlubeit (saw) say they love them (saw) :/ you must understand its much deeper then you think. 

Since we have much knowledge and love for imam(as) we really should be more responsible with sharing knowledge correctly, by simply sharing this to anyone not only do we get foul replies but you also can be responsible for the cause of the disrespect. We have to understand people are different, many are confused, we need to choose the correct treatment for these people.

Who says you need to rush to spread truth to masses, you can focus on individuals even your own families, sons daughters. Share knowledge through love... As love is what attracts people.

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6 hours ago, Irfan1214 said:

Ok show me that with reference. So, that I may know that by myself.

And even if it is true, it showed people difference between a high person and a low person. Muawyiya ibn Abu Sufiyan issued orders to talk bad about Imam Ali a.s so as which was closed during the time of Umar bin Abdul Aziz. While Imam Ali a.s tried to stop Malik al Ashtar from abusing him. It may be because Hazrat Malik Al Ashtar wanted to show people how their Imam is and how Muawiya was. And we do not abuse anyone but we curse them which is Islamic and Quranic. So, is there is nothing you can do about cursing which Quran has legitimized. 

I'm not saying not to curse. I'm saying that in times of war/fitna/confusion it's better to not attach to personalities but to stick to condeming generalization of bad conduct. It's not Al Ashtar (ra) who talked liked this brother, it were some men in his camp in Kufa. They're not known by name. I've read this in the book ''The succession to Muhammad''.

I've no problem with cursing. In fact, in sunni tradition, Aisha used to curse Muawiyah (la) and all his followers/backers in her qunut in every prayer after she found out what happend with Muhammad ibn abu bakr (ra).

Edited by P. Ease

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On 1/9/2017 at 4:55 AM, Irfan1214 said:

In Quran, it is written that many people will go to hell because of believing in wrong Imams.

A group which will be brought are the among the companions are the wrong imams and whosoever follow those will go along them. Now, it is pretty clear that who wrong imams are that forsake religion after Prophet.

Now, you speak of Bihar al Anwar,  this book is under study for verification purpose. However, considering your words which you quote from Bihar al Anwar as to be authentic,  I would like to tell you that neither our imams nor us are hasty in calling a man mushrik or kafir to hurt them like you call shias now and then as kafir and mushrik.  It is enough to note that Imam calls them "Rebels" which is affirmed by earlier hadith which says that people will be thrown into hell because of being rebellious to Prophet and were called renegades.

As of Imam sadiq a.s, he says we are correct and your pioneer Imam Abu Hanifa was his disciple and never can prove Imam sadiq was not right. So, if Imam says we think we are right. It means other is wrong. But we do not intend to cause harm to you and have respect for you as human beings.

Shia vs sunni is not like ahlebayt vs sahabah. This is your problem.

The reason why shias are most hated by sunnis is exaggeration in following ahlebait and rafidhism.

And the reason why sunnis are most hated by shias is exaggeration in following sahabah and nasibism.

Truth is in the middle course.

Ali says:“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.”  Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 126

W.salam.

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6 hours ago, P. Ease said:

I'm not saying not to curse. I'm saying that in times of war/fitna/confusion it's better to not attach to personalities but to stick to condeming generalization of bad conduct. It's not Al Ashtar (ra) who talked liked this brother, it were some men in his camp in Kufa. They're not known by name. I've read this in the book ''The succession to Muhammad''.

I've no problem with cursing. In fact, in sunni tradition, Aisha used to curse Muawiyah (la) and all his followers/backers in her qunut in every prayer after she found out what happend with Muhammad ibn abu bakr (ra).

I also told you this that Malik al Ashtar, never abuses anyone but he cursed enemies of Allah and Ahlul bait a.s.

As for fitna and confusion, there have been fitna throughout centuries. We do not say anything which is against Islam and we do not desire harm to any human being whether it be any Sunni, Christian or Jew. Cursing is a type of worship which is mentioned in Quran. If you say that we do not curse those who divided Muslims into fractions, I think even Allah (SWT) dislikes this idea, because He (AWJ) never exempted those among people of the book who perverted their people. If we stop cursing those, they will remain unexposed. So, we curse every bad doer so that people ask us why you curse and we tell them because of this and that. And if you stop us cursing from bad doers, it means you are sanctioning their wrong deeds. 

 

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1 hour ago, Fahad Sani said:

Shia vs sunni is not like ahlebayt vs sahabah. This is your problem.

The reason why shias are most hated by sunnis is exaggeration in following ahlebait and rafidhism.

And the reason why sunnis are most hated by shias is exaggeration in following sahabah and nasibism.

Truth is in the middle course.

Ali says:“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.”  Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 126

W.salam.

Really, we exaggerated in following Ahle bait a.s ? You are unable to prove that. The truth is that Sunnis do not like that truth be told to them. They are very hasty in calling other to the Islam, but when they are told the truth they turn back and cover the wrong doers. What is purpose of Dawah, which you guys carry out in street, what if you come along a debate with a person who call the "Judah" to be good who was even though among the companion of Jesus a.s but deserted Jesus and for 30 silver coins sold his faith to Jews and told about location of Jesus to Jews but Allah (SWT) saved Jesus a.s and Cursed "Judah". 

Do you think that you are on right course by concealing the wrongdoings of people who believed Prophet PBUHHP and got dishonest afterwards ? Is this your middle course ? Quran says: "O! you who believe, be steadfast in justice even against yourselves, or your kin and parents". I did not hear from you a single word that say that those people disobeyed Prophet PBUHHP. and God is watching you. 

Quote of Ali ibn Abi Talib is true, however interpretation is wrong. Those who went ahead of their ways with respect to Ali were Nusairi and those who hate him are Salafis who call Muawyia and Ali are brother brother even though they know that Momin is not brother of unbeliever and days and night are not equal.

Listen, truth is always straightforward, and very difficult for opposition to accept, but a person who accept the truthfulness is brave in the sight of Allah and he his better than a community of people who believe in a lie. Truth is that Sunni brothers allege to Shias something in which they themselves are found guilty.

I have loads of respect for Sunnis because their are many of my friends who are Sunnis and also some who are Deobandi, but when you are speaking about faith, I love my Akhirah more than this Duniya. Whatever Sunni have belief, they have their own graves to answer, I do not personally attack them on account of their beliefs but if they are doing an attack, they will get an appropriate answer.

If you come to argue with Shias, you are going to fail because right cannot be wronged brother. 

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17 hours ago, Irfan1214 said:

Really, we exaggerated in following Ahle bait a.s ? You are unable to prove that. The truth is that Sunnis do not like that truth be told to them. They are very hasty in calling other to the Islam, but when they are told the truth they turn back and cover the wrong doers. What is purpose of Dawah, which you guys carry out in street, what if you come along a debate with a person who call the "Judah" to be good who was even though among the companion of Jesus a.s but deserted Jesus and for 30 silver coins sold his faith to Jews and told about location of Jesus to Jews but Allah (SWT) saved Jesus a.s and Cursed "Judah". 

Do you think that you are on right course by concealing the wrongdoings of people who believed Prophet PBUHHP and got dishonest afterwards ? Is this your middle course ? Quran says: "O! you who believe, be steadfast in justice even against yourselves, or your kin and parents". I did not hear from you a single word that say that those people disobeyed Prophet PBUHHP. and God is watching you. 

Quote of Ali ibn Abi Talib is true, however interpretation is wrong. Those who went ahead of their ways with respect to Ali were Nusairi and those who hate him are Salafis who call Muawyia and Ali are brother brother even though they know that Momin is not brother of unbeliever and days and night are not equal.

Listen, truth is always straightforward, and very difficult for opposition to accept, but a person who accept the truthfulness is brave in the sight of Allah and he his better than a community of people who believe in a lie. Truth is that Sunni brothers allege to Shias something in which they themselves are found guilty.

I have loads of respect for Sunnis because their are many of my friends who are Sunnis and also some who are Deobandi, but when you are speaking about faith, I love my Akhirah more than this Duniya. Whatever Sunni have belief, they have their own graves to answer, I do not personally attack them on account of their beliefs but if they are doing an attack, they will get an appropriate answer.

If you come to argue with Shias, you are going to fail because right cannot be wronged brother. 

Concept of mansoos minallah imamate, is this not exaggeration whose  basis is no where in Quran nor in the words of Imam ALi a.s in nahjul  balagha. With assumptions, lame excuses, and by using weak sources anyone can prove anything.

Yes there were many sahabah who turned away after Prophet s.a.w.w i.e  those who followed false prophets after him. Those who refused to pay  zakat altogether. Actually there were three categories of sahabah as mentioned in  Quran which you dont want to accept. Tauba 100-102. For you sahabah are just few.

Where did I concealed the wrongdoings of sahabah. Explore this thread  I admitted this many times. But you are blind in the love of ahlebayt.  Its not your problem. I also said ameen to your dua where you sent  lanat upon oppressors. Quran also says do justice even if its in the favor of  your enemies. Read nisa 135 and maida 8.

Did I ever defended Muawiya or his son? Ask anyone. I have never done  this on SC. Neither on ************* forum. Check these two threads.

http://forum.*************/general-sunni-vs-shia/biggest-fraud-that-was-done-to-shias-by-their-scholars/

http://forum.*************/general-sunni-vs-shia/biggest-fraud-that-was-done-to-sunnies-on-their-love-for-sahabah/

You are right truth is very difficult to accept. Thats why you altered  the words of Imam ALi a.s just to prove your man made mansoos minallah  imamate and other beliefs. WHile the truth is that its not even supported by the words  of Imam Ali a.s. Assumptions and derived meanings of the verses of  Quran are not the substitute for truth.

They are twelvers who hide their main books from common public. Kutb e  arba, none of them is open on internet in digital searchable form for  research purposes. WHile on other hand you will find dozens of ahlul  sunnah books on internet. Nothing is hidden (let alone consider sunnah.com). Even you had no knwoledge  about book of sulaim. Majority of twelvers is still following this  man made fabricated book and at the same time they claim we are true followers of ahlebayt.  We do justice. Is this justice or ignorance. Then how can you  understand the truth about muhajirun and ansaar. Its not only about first three caliphs my brother.

You claim to be true shia of Imam ALi a.s. But in reality you are not.  Let me tell you how.

1. You not even care about statements of Imam ALi a.s and is ready to  accept any alteration to his words. Remember what you did and then  said lets not talk about this.

2. Imam ALi a.s never did takfir of those who fought against him.  Neither he called them mushurik nor munafiq. It is mentioned in both shia and sunni books. But you did all this.

3. Imam ALi a.s never cursed anyone as shias are doing today on  mimbar, at home etc. It was muawiya who started the biddah of cursing  Imam ALi a.s. In this regard you are not shia of Ali but shia of  muawiya.

Here are some more examples of exaggeration and majority of twelvers  are invloved in this esp of indo pak region.

And I have seen your way of answering, switching from one topic to  another. You know, you are just like my one shia cousin who has   little knowledge about the twelver books and whose main source of  knowledge is majaalis and history books.

Fe aman Allah.

W.salam

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16 minutes ago, Fahad Sani said:

Concept of mansoos minallah imamate, is this not exaggeration whose  basis is no where in Quran nor in the words of Imam ALi a.s in nahjul  balagha. With assumptions, lame excuses, and by using weak sources anyone can prove anything.

Yes there were many sahabah who turned away after Prophet s.a.w.w i.e  those who followed false prophets after him. Those who refused to pay  zakat altogether. Actually there were three categories of sahabah as mentioned in  Quran which you dont want to accept. Tauba 100-102. For you sahabah are just few.

Where did I concealed the wrongdoings of sahabah. Explore this thread  I admitted this many times. But you are blind in the love of ahlebayt.  Its not your problem. I also said ameen to your dua where you sent  lanat upon oppressors. Quran also says do justice even if its in the favor of  your enemies. Read nisa 135 and maida 8.

Did I ever defended Muawiya or his son? Ask anyone. I have never done  this on SC. Neither on ************* forum. Check these two threads.

http://forum.*************/general-sunni-vs-shia/biggest-fraud-that-was-done-to-shias-by-their-scholars/

http://forum.*************/general-sunni-vs-shia/biggest-fraud-that-was-done-to-sunnies-on-their-love-for-sahabah/

You are right truth is very difficult to accept. Thats why you altered  the words of Imam ALi a.s just to prove your man made mansoos minallah  imamate and other beliefs. WHile the truth is that its not even supported by the words  of Imam Ali a.s. Assumptions and derived meanings of the verses of  Quran are not the substitute for truth.

They are twelvers who hide their main books from common public. Kutb e  arba, none of them is open on internet in digital searchable form for  research purposes. WHile on other hand you will find dozens of ahlul  sunnah books on internet. Nothing is hidden (let alone consider sunnah.com). Even you had no knwoledge  about book of sulaim. Majority of twelvers is still following this  man made fabricated book and at the same time they claim we are true followers of ahlebayt.  We do justice. Is this justice or ignorance. Then how can you  understand the truth about muhajirun and ansaar. Its not only about first three caliphs my brother.

You claim to be true shia of Imam ALi a.s. But in reality you are not.  Let me tell you how.

1. You not even care about statements of Imam ALi a.s and is ready to  accept any alteration to his words. Remember what you did and then  said lets not talk about this.

2. Imam ALi a.s never did takfir of those who fought against him.  Neither he called them mushurik nor munafiq. It is mentioned in both shia and sunni books. But you did all this.

3. Imam ALi a.s never cursed anyone as shias are doing today on  mimbar, at home etc. It was muawiya who started the biddah of cursing  Imam ALi a.s. In this regard you are not shia of Ali but shia of  muawiya.

Here are some more examples of exaggeration and majority of twelvers  are invloved in this esp of indo pak region.

And I have seen your way of answering, switching from one topic to  another. You know, you are just like my one shia cousin who has   little knowledge about the twelver books and whose main source of  knowledge is majaalis and history books.

Fe aman Allah.

W.salam

If you want to say that we are wrong in Saying that Imams are chosen from Allah (SWT) then I will request you to read in Quran where Allah (SWT) says to Ibrahim a.s: "We have made you an Imam for the nations". Then Hazrat Ibrahim a.s says: "And from my progeny too". Allah (SWT) says: "Surely! yes but my promise is not for the wrong doers". Now, here you can see that wrong doers are not among Imams and you yourself said that your caliphs did mistakes and I can read that they were wrong doers. 

Secondly, read in Sahih Bukhari, where it is written that Prophet PBUHHP says: "There will be twelve Imams after me and all of them will be from Quraish". So, it is not your Caliphs whom you believe because Imamate is promised to righteous ones among Quran who be much knowledgeable and Courageous and your leaders do not fit into that criteria. 

Now, what you say is not according to Quran. Allah (SWT) chooses Imams, if you choose Imams know that they can be wronged like you but if Allah (SWT) chooses someone, they cannot be wronged. Now, will you follow Ibrahim who asked Allah (SWT) for coming Imams or else your own desire ? 

Ali a.s words are quite clear, he called them rebels, and Prophet called them renegades. I do not think there can be more explicit words then these. And if someone is rebellious to Islam, it can be anyone else except Muslim.

Edited by Irfan1214

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8 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Concept of mansoos minallah imamate, is this not exaggeration whose  basis is no where in Quran nor in the words of Imam ALi a.s in nahjul  balagha. With assumptions, lame excuses, and by using weak sources anyone can prove anything.

Yes there were many sahabah who turned away after Prophet s.a.w.w i.e  those who followed false prophets after him. Those who refused to pay  zakat altogether. Actually there were three categories of sahabah as mentioned in  Quran which you dont want to accept. Tauba 100-102. For you sahabah are just few.

Where did I concealed the wrongdoings of sahabah. Explore this thread  I admitted this many times. But you are blind in the love of ahlebayt.  Its not your problem. I also said ameen to your dua where you sent  lanat upon oppressors. Quran also says do justice even if its in the favor of  your enemies. Read nisa 135 and maida 8.

Did I ever defended Muawiya or his son? Ask anyone. I have never done  this on SC. Neither on ************* forum. Check these two threads.

http://forum.*************/general-sunni-vs-shia/biggest-fraud-that-was-done-to-shias-by-their-scholars/

http://forum.*************/general-sunni-vs-shia/biggest-fraud-that-was-done-to-sunnies-on-their-love-for-sahabah/

You are right truth is very difficult to accept. Thats why you altered  the words of Imam ALi a.s just to prove your man made mansoos minallah  imamate and other beliefs. WHile the truth is that its not even supported by the words  of Imam Ali a.s. Assumptions and derived meanings of the verses of  Quran are not the substitute for truth.

They are twelvers who hide their main books from common public. Kutb e  arba, none of them is open on internet in digital searchable form for  research purposes. WHile on other hand you will find dozens of ahlul  sunnah books on internet. Nothing is hidden (let alone consider sunnah.com). Even you had no knwoledge  about book of sulaim. Majority of twelvers is still following this  man made fabricated book and at the same time they claim we are true followers of ahlebayt.  We do justice. Is this justice or ignorance. Then how can you  understand the truth about muhajirun and ansaar. Its not only about first three caliphs my brother.

You claim to be true shia of Imam ALi a.s. But in reality you are not.  Let me tell you how.

1. You not even care about statements of Imam ALi a.s and is ready to  accept any alteration to his words. Remember what you did and then  said lets not talk about this.

2. Imam ALi a.s never did takfir of those who fought against him.  Neither he called them mushurik nor munafiq. It is mentioned in both shia and sunni books. But you did all this.

3. Imam ALi a.s never cursed anyone as shias are doing today on  mimbar, at home etc. It was muawiya who started the biddah of cursing  Imam ALi a.s. In this regard you are not shia of Ali but shia of  muawiya.

Here are some more examples of exaggeration and majority of twelvers  are invloved in this esp of indo pak region.

And I have seen your way of answering, switching from one topic to  another. You know, you are just like my one shia cousin who has   little knowledge about the twelver books and whose main source of  knowledge is majaalis and history books.

Fe aman Allah.

W.salam

Salam Alykom

Brother, I'm pretty sure you yourself know that what you're saying is not true, specially the part about our scholars "hiding" stuff from us regular people just because everything isn't available in English... The books (wether in Arabic or any other language) are available for the public and have always been since the beginning, so there is nothing to "hide".

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do. - Quran [4:135]

 

I've noticed that you really like quoting only from Nahjul Balagha and want everything part of our faith to be included there. However I want to remind you that Nahjul Balagha is a source of sermons (hadiths) and a collection just like any other book. So the book may contain both authentic and unauthentic stuff, so you can not really say that Shias are going against Imam Ali A.S, if there are other authentic sources that agrees with the things Shias believe. If something isn't included in Sahih Bukhari but in other authentic Sunni books, would you claim that it isn't true or valid? Same with Nahjul Balagha, just because a topic or something isn't mentioned there doesn't mean that it isn't true or that Imam Ali A.S never said so... It's just a book with sermons and hadiths collected by one of our scholars, and obviously everything can't be included there.

 

Anyhow here are some quotes from Nahjul Balagha since you seem to prefer it and believe it to be Imam Ali's A.S words for sure:

 

Nahjul Balagha Sermon 97.

 

Look at the people of the Prophet's family. Adhere to their direction. Follow their footsteps because they would never let you out of guidance, and never throw you into destruction. If they sit down, you sit down, and if they rise up you rise up. Do not go ahead of them, as you would thereby go astray and go not lag behind of them as you would thereby be ruined.

انْظُرُوا أَهْلَ بَيْتِ نَبِيِّكُمْ فَالْزَمُوا سَمْتَهُمْ، وَاتَّبِعُوا أَثَرَهُمْ فَلَنْ يُخْرِجُوكُمْ مِنْ هُدىً، وَلَنْ يُعِيدُوكُمْ فِي رَدىً، فَإِنْ لَبَدُوا فَالْبُدُوا، وَإِنْ نَهَضُوا فَانْهَضُوا، وَلاَ تَسْبِقُوهُمْ فَتَضِلُّوا، وَلاَ تَتَأَخَّرُوا عَنْهُمْ فَتَهْلِكُوا.

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-97-although-Allah-gives-time-oppressor#about-household-holy-prophet

 

In the same sermon, Imam Ali A.S even talks about Prophet's S.A.W companions:

 

I have seen the companions of the Prophet but I do not find anyone resembling them. They began the day with dust on the hair and face (in hardship of life) and passed the night in prostration and standing in prayers. Sometimes they put down their foreheads and sometimes their cheeks. With the recollection of their resurrection it seemed as though they stood on live coal. It seemed that in between their eyes there were signs like knees of goats, resulting from long prostrations. When Allah was mentioned their eyes flowed freely till their shirt collars were drenched. They trembled for fear of punishment and hope of reward as the tree trembles on the day of stormy wind.

لَقَدْ رَأَيْتُ أَصْحَابَ مُحَمَّد (صلى الله عليه وآله)، فَمَا أَرَى أَحَداً يُشْبِهُهُمْ مِنْكُمْ! لَقَدْ كَانُوا يُصْبِحُونَ شُعْثاً غُبْراً، قَدْ بَاتُوا سُجّداً وَقِيَاماً، يُرَاوِحُونَ بَيْنَ جِبَاهِهِمْ وَخُدُودِهِمْ، وَيَقِفُونَ عَلَى مِثْلِ الْجَمْرِ مِنْ ذِكْرِ مَعَادِهِمْ! كَأَنَّ بَيْنَ أَعْيُنهِمْ رُكَبَ الْمِعْزَى مِنْ طُولِ سُجُودِهِمْ! إِذَا ذُكِرَ اللهُ هَمَلَتْ أَعْيُنُهُمْ حَتَّى تَبُلَّ جُيُوبَهُمْ، وَمَادُوا كَمَا يَمِيدُ

 

Just wanted to share it since it comes from the same sermon, so you don't think that we tried to "hide" it or that it is against our belief. Of course the Prophet S.A.W had many good companions, both those who died during his time or those who even supported Imam Ali A.S during his caliphate. You may think that Shias believes all of Prophet's SAW companions to be kafirs (staghfurallah) but that is obviously wrong. Even if there are Shias or scholars who have said so, we got narrations that talks about there excellence. Also the narrations that speaks about only four companions being on the right after Prophet's SAW demise is only regarding Imam Ali's AS wilayah (according what I've read) and not about them exiting Islam at all. Of course there where companions who "...passed the night in prostration and standing in prayers" etc. as is mentioned in the above narration. 

I've shared a pretty good article regarding this in my last post. 

Again, no doubt that there are probably Shias who go to the extreme or maybe believe that all Sahabas are kafirs or something like that, but that shouldn't be a reason to ignore narrations etc. that talks about Imam Ali's AS right or other good things within the Shi'ites.

 

Please correct me if I've said anything wrong. 

 

 

Nahjul Balagha Sermon 152.

The riser has risen, the sparkler has sparkled, the appearer has appeared and the curved has been straightened. Allah has replaced one people with another and one day with another. We awaited these changes as the famine-stricken await the rain. Certainly the Imams are the vicegerents of Allah over His creatures and they make the creatures know Allah. No one will enter Paradise except he who knows them and knows Him, and no one will enter Hell except he who denies them and denies Him.

فَقَدْ طَلَعَ طَالِعٌ، وَلَمَعَ لاَ مِعٌ، وَلاَحَ لاَئِحٌ، وَاعْتَدَلَ مَائِلٌ، وَاسْتَبْدَلَ اللهُ بِقَوْم قَوْماً، وَبِيَوم يَوْماً، وَانْتَظَرْنَا الْغِيَرَ انْتِظَارَ الْـمُجْدِبِ الْمَطَرَ. وَإِنَّمَا الاَئِمَّةُ قُوَّامُ اللهِ عَلَى خَلْقِهِ، وَعُرَفَاؤُهُ عَلَى عِبَادِهِ، لاَ يَدْخُلُ الْجَنَّةَ إِلاَّ مَنْ عَرَفَهُمْ وَعَرَفُوهُ، وَلاَ يَدْخُلُ النَّارَ

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-152-praise-be-Allah-who-is#part-same-sermon-about-divine-leaders-imams

 

Nahjul Balagha Sermon 144.

 

Where are those who falsely and unjustly claimed that they are deeply versed in knowledge, as against us, although Allah raised us in position and kept them down, bestowed upon us knowledge but deprived them, and entered us (in the fortress of knowledge) but kept them out. With us guidance is to be sought and blindness (of misguidance) is to be changed into brightness. Surely the Imams (divine leaders) will be from the Quraysh. They have been planted in this line through Hashim. It would not suit others nor would others be suitable as heads of affairs.

أَيْنَ الَّذِينَ زَعَمُوا أَنَّهُمُ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ دُونَنَا، كَذِباً وَبَغْياً عَلَيْنَا، أَنْ رَفَعَنَا اللهُ وَوَضَعَهُمْ، وَأَعْطَانَا وَحَرَمَهُمْ، وَأَدْخَلَنَا وَأَخْرَجَهُمْ. بِنَا يُسْتَعْطَى الْهُدَى، وَبِنَا يُسْتَجْلَى الْعَمَى. إِنَّ الاْئِمَّةَ مِنْ قُرَيش غُرِسُوا فِي هذَا الْبَطْنِ مِنْ هَاشِم، لاَ تَصْلُحُ

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-144-Allah-deputed-prophets

 

This confirms with the hadith about 12 Imams / Caliphs being from Quraysh that Prophet S.A.W talked about, so how can Shura (consultation) be a way to choose a caliph. Here Imam Ali A.S even further confirms our view that the Imams A.S will be "in this line through Hashim".

 

Nahjul Balagha Letter 28.

 

Better leave those whose arrows miss the mark. We are the direct recipients of our Lord's favours while others receive favours from us after that. In spite of our old established honour and our well-known superiority over your people, we did not stay away from mixing with you and married and got married (among you) like equals although you were not so. And how could you be so when (the position is that) among us is the Prophet while among you is the opposer, among us is the lion of Allah while among you is the lion of the opposing groups, among us are the two masters of the youth of Paradise while among you are the children of Hell, among us is the choicest of all the women of the worlds while among you is the bearer of firewood, and many more distinctions on our side and shortcomings on your side.

فَدَعْ عَنْكَ مَنْ مَالَتْ بِه الرَّمِيَّةُ، فَإِنَّا صَنَائِعُ رَبِّنَا، وَالنَّاسُ بَعْدُ صَنَائِعُ لَنَا. لَمْ يَمْنَعْنَا قَدِيمُ عِزِّنَا وَلاَ عَادِيُّ طَوْلِنَا عَلَى قَوْمِكَ أَنْ خَلَطْنَاكُمْ بَأَنفُسِنَا، فَنَكَحْنَا وَأَنْكَحْنا، فِعْلَ الاْكْفَاءِ، وَلَسْتُمْ هُنَاكَ! وَأَنَّى يَكُونُ ذلِكَ كَذَلِكَ وَمِنَّا النَّبِيُّ وَمِنْكُمُ الْمُكَذِّبُ، وَمِنَّا أَسَدُ اللهِ وَمِنْكُمْ أَسَدُ الاْحْلاَفِ، وَمِنَّا سَيِّدَا شَبَابِ أَهْلِ الْجَنَّةِ وَمِنْكُمْ صِبْيَةُ النَّارِ، وَمِنَّا خَيْرُ نِسَاءِ الْعَالَمِينِ وَمِنْكُمْ حَمَّالَةُ الْحَطَبِ، فِي كَثِير مِمَّا لَنَا وَعَلَيْكُمْ!

...
 

 

Thus, we are superior firstly because of kinship and secondly because of obedience. When at Saqifah (of Banu Sa'idah) the Muhajirun contended kinship with the Messenger of Allah (S) against the Ansar, they scored over them. If that success was based on kinship then the right would be ours better than yours. Otherwise, the Ansar's contention stands. You think that I have been jealous of every caliph and have revolted against them. Even if this be so, it is not an offence against you and therefore no explanation is due to you.

This is a matter for which no blame comes to you”.

فَنَحْنُ مَرَّةً أوْلَى بِالْقَرَابَةِ، وَتَارَةً أَوْلَى بِالطَّاعَةِ. وَلَمَّا احْتَجَّ الْمُهَاجِرُونَ عَلَى الاْنْصَارِ يَوْمَ السَّقِيفَةِ بِرَسُولِ الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) فَلَجُوا عَلَيْهِمْ، فَإِنْ يَكُنِ الْفَلَجُ بِهِ فَالْحَقُّ لَنَا دُونَكُمْ، وَإِنْ يَكُنْ بِغَيْرِهِ فَالاْنْصَارُ عَلَى دَعْوَاهُمْ.

وَزَعَمْتَ أَنِّي لِكُلِّ الْخُلَفَاءِ حَسَدْتُ، وَعَلَى كُلِّهِمْ بَغَيْتُ، فَإِنْ يَكُنْ ذلِكَ كَذلِكَ فَلَيْسَ الْجِنَايَةُ عَلَيْكَ، فَيَكُونَ الْعُذْرُ إِلَيْكَ.

 
 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-28-reply-muawiyah-and-it-one-ot-his-most-elegant

 

Note that the letter above shows how Imam Ali A.S is talking about Saqifah, and using the kinship thing as an argument against Muawiyah. Same thing could be said with Letter 6 where Imam Ali A.S talked about Shura, as many others likes to quote against Shias, Imam Ali A.S could have just said what he said regarding it as an argument against Muawiya. Allahu Aalam.

 

Another interesting part of the same letter:

 

You have said that I was dragged like a camel with a nose string to swear allegiance (to Abu Bakr at Saqifah). By the Eternal Allah, you had intended to revile me but you have praised me, and to humiliate me but have yourself been humiliated. What humiliation does it mean for a Muslim to be the victim of oppression so long as he does not entertain any doubt in his religion, nor any misgiving in his firm belief! This argument of mine is intended for others, but I have stated it to you only in so far as it was appropriate.

وَقُلْتَ: إِنِّي كُنْتُ أُقَادُ كَمَا يُقَادُ الْجَمَلُ الْـمَخْشُوشُ حَتَّى أُبَايِعَ، وَلَعَمْرُ اللهِ لَقَدْ أَرَدْتَ أَنْ تَذُمَّ فَمَدَحْتَ، وَأَنْ تَفْضَحَ فَافْتَضَحْتَ! وَمَا عَلَى الْمُسْلِمِ مِنْ غَضَاضَة فِي أَنْ يَكُونَ مَظْلُوماً مَا لَمْ يَكُنْ شَاكّاً فِي دِينِهِ، وَلاَ مُرْتَاباً بِيَقِينِهِ!

وَهذِهِ حُجَّتِي إِلَى غَيْرِكَ قَصْدُهَا، وَلكِنِّي أَطْلَقْتُ لَكَ مِنْهَا بِقَدْرِ مَا سَنَحَ مِنْ ذِكْرِهَا.

 

Interestingly, this part kind of confirms a part of the story regarding the burning of Fatimah's SA house (where it was said that Imam Ali A.S was forced to pay allegiance), I think this story was found in The book of Sulaym ibn Qays if I remember right so it's interesting to see another source confirming something from that book (as it is believed that the book isn't fully authentic). But anyway I am not a scholar and can not say if this is authentic or not, at the end Allah SWT is the One who knows what truly happened.

Regarding the book The book of Sulaym ibn Qays, you keep mentioning it like it's the foundation of Shi'ism or something. There are other authentic narrations in other books confirming what Shias believe in, and confirming some things which exists in this book as well. This is a reason why many believe The book of Sulaym ibn Qays contains authentic narrations, since there are other books confirming those that exists in Sulaym's book. However I agree that it is wrong to believe that it is fully authentic, but as previously mentioned Shias got other books and just because those other sources mentions same things as Sulaym's book does, doesn't have to mean that it comes from this book...

 

 

 

Some other letters that is said to show us Imam Ali's A.S real view of Muawiya (you can not take one narration that says that Muawiya is like a brother who "only" rebel against him and believe that this is how Imam Ali A.S really thought of him, you have to look at all the narrations or letters that exists and see what Imam Ali A.S really meant like Shias do). 

 

Letter 32: To Mu'awiyah

 

You have ruined a large group of people whom you have deceived by your misguidance, and have flung them into the currents of your sea where darkness has covered them and misgivings toss them about. As a result they have strayed from the right path and turned on their backs. They turned their backs and pushed forward except those wise ones who came back because they left you after understanding you and ran towards Allah away from your assistance when you put them to troubles and deviated them from the middle path. Therefore, O Mu'awiyah, fear Allah about yourself and take away your rein from Satan, since this world is shortly to be cut off from you and the next world is near you; and that is an end to the matter.

وَأَرْدَيْتَ جِيلاً مِنَ النَّاسِ كَثِيراً، خَدَعْتَهُمْ بِغَيِّكَ، وَأَلْقَيْتَهُمْ فِي مَوْجِ بَحْرِكَ، تَغْشَاهُمُ الظُّلُمَاتُ،تَتَلاَطَمُ بِهِمُ الشُّبُهَاتُ، فَجاروا عَنْ وِجْهَتِهِمْ، وَنَكَصُوا عَلَى أَعْقَابِهِمْ، وَتَوَلَّوْا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِمْ، وَعَوَّلُوا عَلَى أحْسَابِهِمْ، إِلاَّ مَنْ فَاءَ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْبَصَائِرِ، فَإِنَّهُمْ فَارَقُوكَ بَعْدَ مَعْرِفَتِكَ، وَهَرَبُوا إِلَى اللهِ سُبحانَهُ مِنْ مُوَازَرَتِكَ، إِذْ حَمَلْتَهُمْ عَلَى الصَّعْبِ، وَعَدَلْتَ بِهِمْ عَنِ الْقَصْدِ.

فَاتَّقِ اللهَ يَا مُعَاوِيَةُ فِي نَفْسِكَ، وَجَاذِبِ الشَّيْطَانَ قيَادَكَ، فَإِنَّ الدُّنْيَا مُنْقَطِعَةٌ عَنْكَ،

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-32-muawiyah

 

Letter 64: To Mu'awiyah

 

Now then, certainly, we and you were on amiable terms as you say but difference arose between us and you the other day, when we accepted belief (iman) and you rejected it. Today the position is that we are steadfast (in the belief) but you are creating mischief. Those of you who accepted Islam did so reluctantly and that too when all the chief men had accepted Islam and joined the Messenger of Allah- (may Allah bless him and his descendants).

أَمَّا بَعْدُ، فَإِنَّا كُنَّا نَحْنُ وَأَنْتُمْ عَلَى مَا ذَكَرْتَ مِنَ الاْلْفَةِ وَالْجَمَاعَةِ، فَفَرَّقَ بيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمْ أَمْسِ أَنَّا آمَنَّا وَكَفَرْتُمْ، وَالْيَوْمَ أَنَّا اسْتَقَمْنَا وَفُتِنْتُمْ، وَمَا أَسْلَمَ مُسْلِمُكُمْ إِلاَّ كَرْهاً، وَبَعْدَ أَنْ كَانَ أَنْفُ الاْسْلاَمِ كُلُّهُ لِرَسُولِ اللهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) حرباً.

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-64-reply-muawiyah

 

_____

 

There are probably more sermons in Nahjul Balagha about Imamat / Ahlulbayt A.S right so if anyone got their references please share them.

 

 

Just wanted to share my thoughts, and if I've said anything wrong please correct me. 

May Allah SWT guide us all to the straight path. 

Wsalam

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8 hours ago, Fahad Sani said:

Concept of mansoos minallah imamate, is this not exaggeration whose  basis is no where in Quran nor in the words of Imam ALi a.s in nahjul  balagha. With assumptions, lame excuses, and by using weak sources anyone can prove anything.

Yes there were many sahabah who turned away after Prophet s.a.w.w i.e  those who followed false prophets after him. Those who refused to pay  zakat altogether. Actually there were three categories of sahabah as mentioned in  Quran which you dont want to accept. Tauba 100-102. For you sahabah are just few.

Where did I concealed the wrongdoings of sahabah. Explore this thread  I admitted this many times. But you are blind in the love of ahlebayt.  Its not your problem. I also said ameen to your dua where you sent  lanat upon oppressors. Quran also says do justice even if its in the favor of  your enemies. Read nisa 135 and maida 8.

Did I ever defended Muawiya or his son? Ask anyone. I have never done  this on SC. Neither on ************* forum. Check these two threads.

http://forum.*************/general-sunni-vs-shia/biggest-fraud-that-was-done-to-shias-by-their-scholars/

http://forum.*************/general-sunni-vs-shia/biggest-fraud-that-was-done-to-sunnies-on-their-love-for-sahabah/

You are right truth is very difficult to accept. Thats why you altered  the words of Imam ALi a.s just to prove your man made mansoos minallah  imamate and other beliefs. WHile the truth is that its not even supported by the words  of Imam Ali a.s. Assumptions and derived meanings of the verses of  Quran are not the substitute for truth.

They are twelvers who hide their main books from common public. Kutb e  arba, none of them is open on internet in digital searchable form for  research purposes. WHile on other hand you will find dozens of ahlul  sunnah books on internet. Nothing is hidden (let alone consider sunnah.com). Even you had no knwoledge  about book of sulaim. Majority of twelvers is still following this  man made fabricated book and at the same time they claim we are true followers of ahlebayt.  We do justice. Is this justice or ignorance. Then how can you  understand the truth about muhajirun and ansaar. Its not only about first three caliphs my brother.

You claim to be true shia of Imam ALi a.s. But in reality you are not.  Let me tell you how.

1. You not even care about statements of Imam ALi a.s and is ready to  accept any alteration to his words. Remember what you did and then  said lets not talk about this.

2. Imam ALi a.s never did takfir of those who fought against him.  Neither he called them mushurik nor munafiq. It is mentioned in both shia and sunni books. But you did all this.

3. Imam ALi a.s never cursed anyone as shias are doing today on  mimbar, at home etc. It was muawiya who started the biddah of cursing  Imam ALi a.s. In this regard you are not shia of Ali but shia of  muawiya.

Here are some more examples of exaggeration and majority of twelvers  are invloved in this esp of indo pak region.

And I have seen your way of answering, switching from one topic to  another. You know, you are just like my one shia cousin who has   little knowledge about the twelver books and whose main source of  knowledge is majaalis and history books.

Fe aman Allah.

W.salam

Salam Alykom

Brother, I'm pretty sure you yourself know that what you're saying is not true, specially the part about our scholars "hiding" stuff from us regular people just because everything isn't available in English... The books (wether in Arabic or any other language) are available for the public and have always been since the beginning, so there is nothing to "hide".

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do. - Quran [4:135]

 

I've noticed that you really like quoting only from Nahjul Balagha and want everything part of our faith to be included there. However I want to remind you that Nahjul Balagha is a source of sermons (hadiths) and a collection just like any other book. So the book may contain both authentic and unauthentic stuff, so you can not really say that Shias are going against Imam Ali A.S, if there are other authentic sources that agrees with the things Shias believe. If something isn't included in Sahih Bukhari but in other authentic Sunni books, would you claim that it isn't true or valid? Same with Nahjul Balagha, just because a topic or something isn't mentioned there doesn't mean that it isn't true or that Imam Ali A.S never said so... It's just a book with sermons and hadiths collected by one of our scholars, and obviously everything can't be included there.

 

Anyhow here are some quotes from Nahjul Balagha since you seem to prefer it and believe it to be Imam Ali's A.S words for sure:

 

Nahjul Balagha Sermon 97.

 

Look at the people of the Prophet's family. Adhere to their direction. Follow their footsteps because they would never let you out of guidance, and never throw you into destruction. If they sit down, you sit down, and if they rise up you rise up. Do not go ahead of them, as you would thereby go astray and go not lag behind of them as you would thereby be ruined.

انْظُرُوا أَهْلَ بَيْتِ نَبِيِّكُمْ فَالْزَمُوا سَمْتَهُمْ، وَاتَّبِعُوا أَثَرَهُمْ فَلَنْ يُخْرِجُوكُمْ مِنْ هُدىً، وَلَنْ يُعِيدُوكُمْ فِي رَدىً، فَإِنْ لَبَدُوا فَالْبُدُوا، وَإِنْ نَهَضُوا فَانْهَضُوا، وَلاَ تَسْبِقُوهُمْ فَتَضِلُّوا، وَلاَ تَتَأَخَّرُوا عَنْهُمْ فَتَهْلِكُوا.

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-97-although-Allah-gives-time-oppressor#about-household-holy-prophet

 

In the same sermon, Imam Ali A.S even talks about Prophet's S.A.W companions:

 

I have seen the companions of the Prophet but I do not find anyone resembling them. They began the day with dust on the hair and face (in hardship of life) and passed the night in prostration and standing in prayers. Sometimes they put down their foreheads and sometimes their cheeks. With the recollection of their resurrection it seemed as though they stood on live coal. It seemed that in between their eyes there were signs like knees of goats, resulting from long prostrations. When Allah was mentioned their eyes flowed freely till their shirt collars were drenched. They trembled for fear of punishment and hope of reward as the tree trembles on the day of stormy wind.

لَقَدْ رَأَيْتُ أَصْحَابَ مُحَمَّد (صلى الله عليه وآله)، فَمَا أَرَى أَحَداً يُشْبِهُهُمْ مِنْكُمْ! لَقَدْ كَانُوا يُصْبِحُونَ شُعْثاً غُبْراً، قَدْ بَاتُوا سُجّداً وَقِيَاماً، يُرَاوِحُونَ بَيْنَ جِبَاهِهِمْ وَخُدُودِهِمْ، وَيَقِفُونَ عَلَى مِثْلِ الْجَمْرِ مِنْ ذِكْرِ مَعَادِهِمْ! كَأَنَّ بَيْنَ أَعْيُنهِمْ رُكَبَ الْمِعْزَى مِنْ طُولِ سُجُودِهِمْ! إِذَا ذُكِرَ اللهُ هَمَلَتْ أَعْيُنُهُمْ حَتَّى تَبُلَّ جُيُوبَهُمْ، وَمَادُوا كَمَا يَمِيدُ

 

Just wanted to share it since it comes from the same sermon, so you don't think that we tried to "hide" it or that it is against our belief. Of course the Prophet S.A.W had many good companions, both those who died during his time or those who even supported Imam Ali A.S during his caliphate. You may think that Shias believes all of Prophet's SAW companions to be kafirs (staghfurallah) but that is obviously wrong. Even if there are Shias or scholars who have said so, we got narrations that talks about there excellence. Also the narrations that speaks about only four companions being on the right after Prophet's SAW demise is only regarding Imam Ali's AS wilayah (according what I've read) and not about them exiting Islam at all. Of course there where companions who "...passed the night in prostration and standing in prayers" etc. as is mentioned in the above narration. 

I've shared a pretty good article regarding this in my last post. 

Again, no doubt that there are probably Shias who go to the extreme or maybe believe that all Sahabas are kafirs or something like that, but that shouldn't be a reason to ignore narrations etc. that talks about Imam Ali's AS right or other good things within the Shi'ites.

 

Please correct me if I've said anything wrong. 

 

 

Nahjul Balagha Sermon 152.

The riser has risen, the sparkler has sparkled, the appearer has appeared and the curved has been straightened. Allah has replaced one people with another and one day with another. We awaited these changes as the famine-stricken await the rain. Certainly the Imams are the vicegerents of Allah over His creatures and they make the creatures know Allah. No one will enter Paradise except he who knows them and knows Him, and no one will enter Hell except he who denies them and denies Him.

فَقَدْ طَلَعَ طَالِعٌ، وَلَمَعَ لاَ مِعٌ، وَلاَحَ لاَئِحٌ، وَاعْتَدَلَ مَائِلٌ، وَاسْتَبْدَلَ اللهُ بِقَوْم قَوْماً، وَبِيَوم يَوْماً، وَانْتَظَرْنَا الْغِيَرَ انْتِظَارَ الْـمُجْدِبِ الْمَطَرَ. وَإِنَّمَا الاَئِمَّةُ قُوَّامُ اللهِ عَلَى خَلْقِهِ، وَعُرَفَاؤُهُ عَلَى عِبَادِهِ، لاَ يَدْخُلُ الْجَنَّةَ إِلاَّ مَنْ عَرَفَهُمْ وَعَرَفُوهُ، وَلاَ يَدْخُلُ النَّارَ

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-152-praise-be-Allah-who-is#part-same-sermon-about-divine-leaders-imams

 

Nahjul Balagha Sermon 144.

 

Where are those who falsely and unjustly claimed that they are deeply versed in knowledge, as against us, although Allah raised us in position and kept them down, bestowed upon us knowledge but deprived them, and entered us (in the fortress of knowledge) but kept them out. With us guidance is to be sought and blindness (of misguidance) is to be changed into brightness. Surely the Imams (divine leaders) will be from the Quraysh. They have been planted in this line through Hashim. It would not suit others nor would others be suitable as heads of affairs.

أَيْنَ الَّذِينَ زَعَمُوا أَنَّهُمُ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ دُونَنَا، كَذِباً وَبَغْياً عَلَيْنَا، أَنْ رَفَعَنَا اللهُ وَوَضَعَهُمْ، وَأَعْطَانَا وَحَرَمَهُمْ، وَأَدْخَلَنَا وَأَخْرَجَهُمْ. بِنَا يُسْتَعْطَى الْهُدَى، وَبِنَا يُسْتَجْلَى الْعَمَى. إِنَّ الاْئِمَّةَ مِنْ قُرَيش غُرِسُوا فِي هذَا الْبَطْنِ مِنْ هَاشِم، لاَ تَصْلُحُ

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-144-Allah-deputed-prophets

 

This confirms with the hadith about 12 Imams / Caliphs being from Quraysh that Prophet S.A.W talked about, so how can Shura (consultation) be a way to choose a caliph. Here Imam Ali A.S even further confirms our view that the Imams A.S will be "in this line through Hashim".

 

Nahjul Balagha Letter 28.

 

Better leave those whose arrows miss the mark. We are the direct recipients of our Lord's favours while others receive favours from us after that. In spite of our old established honour and our well-known superiority over your people, we did not stay away from mixing with you and married and got married (among you) like equals although you were not so. And how could you be so when (the position is that) among us is the Prophet while among you is the opposer, among us is the lion of Allah while among you is the lion of the opposing groups, among us are the two masters of the youth of Paradise while among you are the children of Hell, among us is the choicest of all the women of the worlds while among you is the bearer of firewood, and many more distinctions on our side and shortcomings on your side.

فَدَعْ عَنْكَ مَنْ مَالَتْ بِه الرَّمِيَّةُ، فَإِنَّا صَنَائِعُ رَبِّنَا، وَالنَّاسُ بَعْدُ صَنَائِعُ لَنَا. لَمْ يَمْنَعْنَا قَدِيمُ عِزِّنَا وَلاَ عَادِيُّ طَوْلِنَا عَلَى قَوْمِكَ أَنْ خَلَطْنَاكُمْ بَأَنفُسِنَا، فَنَكَحْنَا وَأَنْكَحْنا، فِعْلَ الاْكْفَاءِ، وَلَسْتُمْ هُنَاكَ! وَأَنَّى يَكُونُ ذلِكَ كَذَلِكَ وَمِنَّا النَّبِيُّ وَمِنْكُمُ الْمُكَذِّبُ، وَمِنَّا أَسَدُ اللهِ وَمِنْكُمْ أَسَدُ الاْحْلاَفِ، وَمِنَّا سَيِّدَا شَبَابِ أَهْلِ الْجَنَّةِ وَمِنْكُمْ صِبْيَةُ النَّارِ، وَمِنَّا خَيْرُ نِسَاءِ الْعَالَمِينِ وَمِنْكُمْ حَمَّالَةُ الْحَطَبِ، فِي كَثِير مِمَّا لَنَا وَعَلَيْكُمْ!

...
 

 

Thus, we are superior firstly because of kinship and secondly because of obedience. When at Saqifah (of Banu Sa'idah) the Muhajirun contended kinship with the Messenger of Allah (S) against the Ansar, they scored over them. If that success was based on kinship then the right would be ours better than yours. Otherwise, the Ansar's contention stands. You think that I have been jealous of every caliph and have revolted against them. Even if this be so, it is not an offence against you and therefore no explanation is due to you.

This is a matter for which no blame comes to you”.

فَنَحْنُ مَرَّةً أوْلَى بِالْقَرَابَةِ، وَتَارَةً أَوْلَى بِالطَّاعَةِ. وَلَمَّا احْتَجَّ الْمُهَاجِرُونَ عَلَى الاْنْصَارِ يَوْمَ السَّقِيفَةِ بِرَسُولِ الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) فَلَجُوا عَلَيْهِمْ، فَإِنْ يَكُنِ الْفَلَجُ بِهِ فَالْحَقُّ لَنَا دُونَكُمْ، وَإِنْ يَكُنْ بِغَيْرِهِ فَالاْنْصَارُ عَلَى دَعْوَاهُمْ.

وَزَعَمْتَ أَنِّي لِكُلِّ الْخُلَفَاءِ حَسَدْتُ، وَعَلَى كُلِّهِمْ بَغَيْتُ، فَإِنْ يَكُنْ ذلِكَ كَذلِكَ فَلَيْسَ الْجِنَايَةُ عَلَيْكَ، فَيَكُونَ الْعُذْرُ إِلَيْكَ.

 
 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-28-reply-muawiyah-and-it-one-ot-his-most-elegant

 

Note that the letter above shows how Imam Ali A.S is talking about Saqifah, and using the kinship thing as an argument against Muawiyah. Same thing could be said with Letter 6 where Imam Ali A.S talked about Shura, as many others likes to quote against Shias, Imam Ali A.S could have just said what he said regarding it as an argument against Muawiya. Allahu Aalam.

 

Another interesting part of the same letter:

 

You have said that I was dragged like a camel with a nose string to swear allegiance (to Abu Bakr at Saqifah). By the Eternal Allah, you had intended to revile me but you have praised me, and to humiliate me but have yourself been humiliated. What humiliation does it mean for a Muslim to be the victim of oppression so long as he does not entertain any doubt in his religion, nor any misgiving in his firm belief! This argument of mine is intended for others, but I have stated it to you only in so far as it was appropriate.

وَقُلْتَ: إِنِّي كُنْتُ أُقَادُ كَمَا يُقَادُ الْجَمَلُ الْـمَخْشُوشُ حَتَّى أُبَايِعَ، وَلَعَمْرُ اللهِ لَقَدْ أَرَدْتَ أَنْ تَذُمَّ فَمَدَحْتَ، وَأَنْ تَفْضَحَ فَافْتَضَحْتَ! وَمَا عَلَى الْمُسْلِمِ مِنْ غَضَاضَة فِي أَنْ يَكُونَ مَظْلُوماً مَا لَمْ يَكُنْ شَاكّاً فِي دِينِهِ، وَلاَ مُرْتَاباً بِيَقِينِهِ!

وَهذِهِ حُجَّتِي إِلَى غَيْرِكَ قَصْدُهَا، وَلكِنِّي أَطْلَقْتُ لَكَ مِنْهَا بِقَدْرِ مَا سَنَحَ مِنْ ذِكْرِهَا.

 

Interestingly, this part kind of confirms a part of the story regarding the burning of Fatimah's SA house (where it was said that Imam Ali A.S was forced to pay allegiance), I think this story was found in The book of Sulaym ibn Qays if I remember right so it's interesting to see another source confirming something from that book (as it is believed that the book isn't fully authentic). But anyway I am not a scholar and can not say if this is authentic or not, at the end Allah SWT is the One who knows what truly happened.

Regarding the book The book of Sulaym ibn Qays, you keep mentioning it like it's the foundation of Shi'ism or something. There are other authentic narrations in other books confirming what Shias believe in, and confirming some things which exists in this book as well. This is a reason why many believe The book of Sulaym ibn Qays contains authentic narrations, since there are other books confirming those that exists in Sulaym's book. However I agree that it is wrong to believe that it is fully authentic, but as previously mentioned Shias got other books and just because those other sources mentions same things as Sulaym's book does, doesn't have to mean that it comes from this book...

 

 

 

Some other letters that is said to show us Imam Ali's A.S real view of Muawiya (you can not take one narration that says that Muawiya is like a brother who "only" rebel against him and believe that this is how Imam Ali A.S really thought of him, you have to look at all the narrations or letters that exists and see what Imam Ali A.S really meant like Shias do). 

 

Letter 32: To Mu'awiyah

 

You have ruined a large group of people whom you have deceived by your misguidance, and have flung them into the currents of your sea where darkness has covered them and misgivings toss them about. As a result they have strayed from the right path and turned on their backs. They turned their backs and pushed forward except those wise ones who came back because they left you after understanding you and ran towards Allah away from your assistance when you put them to troubles and deviated them from the middle path. Therefore, O Mu'awiyah, fear Allah about yourself and take away your rein from Satan, since this world is shortly to be cut off from you and the next world is near you; and that is an end to the matter.

وَأَرْدَيْتَ جِيلاً مِنَ النَّاسِ كَثِيراً، خَدَعْتَهُمْ بِغَيِّكَ، وَأَلْقَيْتَهُمْ فِي مَوْجِ بَحْرِكَ، تَغْشَاهُمُ الظُّلُمَاتُ،تَتَلاَطَمُ بِهِمُ الشُّبُهَاتُ، فَجاروا عَنْ وِجْهَتِهِمْ، وَنَكَصُوا عَلَى أَعْقَابِهِمْ، وَتَوَلَّوْا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِمْ، وَعَوَّلُوا عَلَى أحْسَابِهِمْ، إِلاَّ مَنْ فَاءَ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْبَصَائِرِ، فَإِنَّهُمْ فَارَقُوكَ بَعْدَ مَعْرِفَتِكَ، وَهَرَبُوا إِلَى اللهِ سُبحانَهُ مِنْ مُوَازَرَتِكَ، إِذْ حَمَلْتَهُمْ عَلَى الصَّعْبِ، وَعَدَلْتَ بِهِمْ عَنِ الْقَصْدِ.

فَاتَّقِ اللهَ يَا مُعَاوِيَةُ فِي نَفْسِكَ، وَجَاذِبِ الشَّيْطَانَ قيَادَكَ، فَإِنَّ الدُّنْيَا مُنْقَطِعَةٌ عَنْكَ،

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-32-muawiyah

 

Letter 64: To Mu'awiyah

 

Now then, certainly, we and you were on amiable terms as you say but difference arose between us and you the other day, when we accepted belief (iman) and you rejected it. Today the position is that we are steadfast (in the belief) but you are creating mischief. Those of you who accepted Islam did so reluctantly and that too when all the chief men had accepted Islam and joined the Messenger of Allah- (may Allah bless him and his descendants).

أَمَّا بَعْدُ، فَإِنَّا كُنَّا نَحْنُ وَأَنْتُمْ عَلَى مَا ذَكَرْتَ مِنَ الاْلْفَةِ وَالْجَمَاعَةِ، فَفَرَّقَ بيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمْ أَمْسِ أَنَّا آمَنَّا وَكَفَرْتُمْ، وَالْيَوْمَ أَنَّا اسْتَقَمْنَا وَفُتِنْتُمْ، وَمَا أَسْلَمَ مُسْلِمُكُمْ إِلاَّ كَرْهاً، وَبَعْدَ أَنْ كَانَ أَنْفُ الاْسْلاَمِ كُلُّهُ لِرَسُولِ اللهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) حرباً.

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-64-reply-muawiyah

 

_____

 

There are probably more sermons in Nahjul Balagha about Imamat / Ahlulbayt A.S right so if anyone got their references please share them.

 

 

Just wanted to share my thoughts, and if I've said anything wrong please correct me. 

May Allah SWT guide us all to the straight path. 

Wsalam

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9 hours ago, The Straight Path said:

Salam Alykom

Brother, I'm pretty sure you yourself know that what you're saying is not true, specially the part about our scholars "hiding" stuff from us regular people just because everything isn't available in English... The books (wether in Arabic or any other language) are available for the public and have always been since the beginning, so there is nothing to "hide".

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do. - Quran [4:135]

 

I've noticed that you really like quoting only from Nahjul Balagha and want everything part of our faith to be included there. However I want to remind you that Nahjul Balagha is a source of sermons (hadiths) and a collection just like any other book. So the book may contain both authentic and unauthentic stuff, so you can not really say that Shias are going against Imam Ali A.S, if there are other authentic sources that agrees with the things Shias believe. If something isn't included in Sahih Bukhari but in other authentic Sunni books, would you claim that it isn't true or valid? Same with Nahjul Balagha, just because a topic or something isn't mentioned there doesn't mean that it isn't true or that Imam Ali A.S never said so... It's just a book with sermons and hadiths collected by one of our scholars, and obviously everything can't be included there.

 

Anyhow here are some quotes from Nahjul Balagha since you seem to prefer it and believe it to be Imam Ali's A.S words for sure:

 

Nahjul Balagha Sermon 97.

 

Look at the people of the Prophet's family. Adhere to their direction. Follow their footsteps because they would never let you out of guidance, and never throw you into destruction. If they sit down, you sit down, and if they rise up you rise up. Do not go ahead of them, as you would thereby go astray and go not lag behind of them as you would thereby be ruined.

انْظُرُوا أَهْلَ بَيْتِ نَبِيِّكُمْ فَالْزَمُوا سَمْتَهُمْ، وَاتَّبِعُوا أَثَرَهُمْ فَلَنْ يُخْرِجُوكُمْ مِنْ هُدىً، وَلَنْ يُعِيدُوكُمْ فِي رَدىً، فَإِنْ لَبَدُوا فَالْبُدُوا، وَإِنْ نَهَضُوا فَانْهَضُوا، وَلاَ تَسْبِقُوهُمْ فَتَضِلُّوا، وَلاَ تَتَأَخَّرُوا عَنْهُمْ فَتَهْلِكُوا.

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-97-although-Allah-gives-time-oppressor#about-household-holy-prophet

 

In the same sermon, Imam Ali A.S even talks about Prophet's S.A.W companions:

 

I have seen the companions of the Prophet but I do not find anyone resembling them. They began the day with dust on the hair and face (in hardship of life) and passed the night in prostration and standing in prayers. Sometimes they put down their foreheads and sometimes their cheeks. With the recollection of their resurrection it seemed as though they stood on live coal. It seemed that in between their eyes there were signs like knees of goats, resulting from long prostrations. When Allah was mentioned their eyes flowed freely till their shirt collars were drenched. They trembled for fear of punishment and hope of reward as the tree trembles on the day of stormy wind.

لَقَدْ رَأَيْتُ أَصْحَابَ مُحَمَّد (صلى الله عليه وآله)، فَمَا أَرَى أَحَداً يُشْبِهُهُمْ مِنْكُمْ! لَقَدْ كَانُوا يُصْبِحُونَ شُعْثاً غُبْراً، قَدْ بَاتُوا سُجّداً وَقِيَاماً، يُرَاوِحُونَ بَيْنَ جِبَاهِهِمْ وَخُدُودِهِمْ، وَيَقِفُونَ عَلَى مِثْلِ الْجَمْرِ مِنْ ذِكْرِ مَعَادِهِمْ! كَأَنَّ بَيْنَ أَعْيُنهِمْ رُكَبَ الْمِعْزَى مِنْ طُولِ سُجُودِهِمْ! إِذَا ذُكِرَ اللهُ هَمَلَتْ أَعْيُنُهُمْ حَتَّى تَبُلَّ جُيُوبَهُمْ، وَمَادُوا كَمَا يَمِيدُ

 

Just wanted to share it since it comes from the same sermon, so you don't think that we tried to "hide" it or that it is against our belief. Of course the Prophet S.A.W had many good companions, both those who died during his time or those who even supported Imam Ali A.S during his caliphate. You may think that Shias believes all of Prophet's SAW companions to be kafirs (staghfurallah) but that is obviously wrong. Even if there are Shias or scholars who have said so, we got narrations that talks about there excellence. Also the narrations that speaks about only four companions being on the right after Prophet's SAW demise is only regarding Imam Ali's AS wilayah (according what I've read) and not about them exiting Islam at all. Of course there where companions who "...passed the night in prostration and standing in prayers" etc. as is mentioned in the above narration. 

I've shared a pretty good article regarding this in my last post. 

Again, no doubt that there are probably Shias who go to the extreme or maybe believe that all Sahabas are kafirs or something like that, but that shouldn't be a reason to ignore narrations etc. that talks about Imam Ali's AS right or other good things within the Shi'ites.

 

Please correct me if I've said anything wrong. 

 

 

Nahjul Balagha Sermon 152.

The riser has risen, the sparkler has sparkled, the appearer has appeared and the curved has been straightened. Allah has replaced one people with another and one day with another. We awaited these changes as the famine-stricken await the rain. Certainly the Imams are the vicegerents of Allah over His creatures and they make the creatures know Allah. No one will enter Paradise except he who knows them and knows Him, and no one will enter Hell except he who denies them and denies Him.

فَقَدْ طَلَعَ طَالِعٌ، وَلَمَعَ لاَ مِعٌ، وَلاَحَ لاَئِحٌ، وَاعْتَدَلَ مَائِلٌ، وَاسْتَبْدَلَ اللهُ بِقَوْم قَوْماً، وَبِيَوم يَوْماً، وَانْتَظَرْنَا الْغِيَرَ انْتِظَارَ الْـمُجْدِبِ الْمَطَرَ. وَإِنَّمَا الاَئِمَّةُ قُوَّامُ اللهِ عَلَى خَلْقِهِ، وَعُرَفَاؤُهُ عَلَى عِبَادِهِ، لاَ يَدْخُلُ الْجَنَّةَ إِلاَّ مَنْ عَرَفَهُمْ وَعَرَفُوهُ، وَلاَ يَدْخُلُ النَّارَ

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-152-praise-be-Allah-who-is#part-same-sermon-about-divine-leaders-imams

 

Nahjul Balagha Sermon 144.

 

Where are those who falsely and unjustly claimed that they are deeply versed in knowledge, as against us, although Allah raised us in position and kept them down, bestowed upon us knowledge but deprived them, and entered us (in the fortress of knowledge) but kept them out. With us guidance is to be sought and blindness (of misguidance) is to be changed into brightness. Surely the Imams (divine leaders) will be from the Quraysh. They have been planted in this line through Hashim. It would not suit others nor would others be suitable as heads of affairs.

أَيْنَ الَّذِينَ زَعَمُوا أَنَّهُمُ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ دُونَنَا، كَذِباً وَبَغْياً عَلَيْنَا، أَنْ رَفَعَنَا اللهُ وَوَضَعَهُمْ، وَأَعْطَانَا وَحَرَمَهُمْ، وَأَدْخَلَنَا وَأَخْرَجَهُمْ. بِنَا يُسْتَعْطَى الْهُدَى، وَبِنَا يُسْتَجْلَى الْعَمَى. إِنَّ الاْئِمَّةَ مِنْ قُرَيش غُرِسُوا فِي هذَا الْبَطْنِ مِنْ هَاشِم، لاَ تَصْلُحُ

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-144-Allah-deputed-prophets

 

This confirms with the hadith about 12 Imams / Caliphs being from Quraysh that Prophet S.A.W talked about, so how can Shura (consultation) be a way to choose a caliph. Here Imam Ali A.S even further confirms our view that the Imams A.S will be "in this line through Hashim".

 

Nahjul Balagha Letter 28.

 

Better leave those whose arrows miss the mark. We are the direct recipients of our Lord's favours while others receive favours from us after that. In spite of our old established honour and our well-known superiority over your people, we did not stay away from mixing with you and married and got married (among you) like equals although you were not so. And how could you be so when (the position is that) among us is the Prophet while among you is the opposer, among us is the lion of Allah while among you is the lion of the opposing groups, among us are the two masters of the youth of Paradise while among you are the children of Hell, among us is the choicest of all the women of the worlds while among you is the bearer of firewood, and many more distinctions on our side and shortcomings on your side.

فَدَعْ عَنْكَ مَنْ مَالَتْ بِه الرَّمِيَّةُ، فَإِنَّا صَنَائِعُ رَبِّنَا، وَالنَّاسُ بَعْدُ صَنَائِعُ لَنَا. لَمْ يَمْنَعْنَا قَدِيمُ عِزِّنَا وَلاَ عَادِيُّ طَوْلِنَا عَلَى قَوْمِكَ أَنْ خَلَطْنَاكُمْ بَأَنفُسِنَا، فَنَكَحْنَا وَأَنْكَحْنا، فِعْلَ الاْكْفَاءِ، وَلَسْتُمْ هُنَاكَ! وَأَنَّى يَكُونُ ذلِكَ كَذَلِكَ وَمِنَّا النَّبِيُّ وَمِنْكُمُ الْمُكَذِّبُ، وَمِنَّا أَسَدُ اللهِ وَمِنْكُمْ أَسَدُ الاْحْلاَفِ، وَمِنَّا سَيِّدَا شَبَابِ أَهْلِ الْجَنَّةِ وَمِنْكُمْ صِبْيَةُ النَّارِ، وَمِنَّا خَيْرُ نِسَاءِ الْعَالَمِينِ وَمِنْكُمْ حَمَّالَةُ الْحَطَبِ، فِي كَثِير مِمَّا لَنَا وَعَلَيْكُمْ!

...
 

 

Thus, we are superior firstly because of kinship and secondly because of obedience. When at Saqifah (of Banu Sa'idah) the Muhajirun contended kinship with the Messenger of Allah (S) against the Ansar, they scored over them. If that success was based on kinship then the right would be ours better than yours. Otherwise, the Ansar's contention stands. You think that I have been jealous of every caliph and have revolted against them. Even if this be so, it is not an offence against you and therefore no explanation is due to you.

This is a matter for which no blame comes to you”.

فَنَحْنُ مَرَّةً أوْلَى بِالْقَرَابَةِ، وَتَارَةً أَوْلَى بِالطَّاعَةِ. وَلَمَّا احْتَجَّ الْمُهَاجِرُونَ عَلَى الاْنْصَارِ يَوْمَ السَّقِيفَةِ بِرَسُولِ الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) فَلَجُوا عَلَيْهِمْ، فَإِنْ يَكُنِ الْفَلَجُ بِهِ فَالْحَقُّ لَنَا دُونَكُمْ، وَإِنْ يَكُنْ بِغَيْرِهِ فَالاْنْصَارُ عَلَى دَعْوَاهُمْ.

وَزَعَمْتَ أَنِّي لِكُلِّ الْخُلَفَاءِ حَسَدْتُ، وَعَلَى كُلِّهِمْ بَغَيْتُ، فَإِنْ يَكُنْ ذلِكَ كَذلِكَ فَلَيْسَ الْجِنَايَةُ عَلَيْكَ، فَيَكُونَ الْعُذْرُ إِلَيْكَ.

 
 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-28-reply-muawiyah-and-it-one-ot-his-most-elegant

 

Note that the letter above shows how Imam Ali A.S is talking about Saqifah, and using the kinship thing as an argument against Muawiyah. Same thing could be said with Letter 6 where Imam Ali A.S talked about Shura, as many others likes to quote against Shias, Imam Ali A.S could have just said what he said regarding it as an argument against Muawiya. Allahu Aalam.

 

Another interesting part of the same letter:

 

You have said that I was dragged like a camel with a nose string to swear allegiance (to Abu Bakr at Saqifah). By the Eternal Allah, you had intended to revile me but you have praised me, and to humiliate me but have yourself been humiliated. What humiliation does it mean for a Muslim to be the victim of oppression so long as he does not entertain any doubt in his religion, nor any misgiving in his firm belief! This argument of mine is intended for others, but I have stated it to you only in so far as it was appropriate.

وَقُلْتَ: إِنِّي كُنْتُ أُقَادُ كَمَا يُقَادُ الْجَمَلُ الْـمَخْشُوشُ حَتَّى أُبَايِعَ، وَلَعَمْرُ اللهِ لَقَدْ أَرَدْتَ أَنْ تَذُمَّ فَمَدَحْتَ، وَأَنْ تَفْضَحَ فَافْتَضَحْتَ! وَمَا عَلَى الْمُسْلِمِ مِنْ غَضَاضَة فِي أَنْ يَكُونَ مَظْلُوماً مَا لَمْ يَكُنْ شَاكّاً فِي دِينِهِ، وَلاَ مُرْتَاباً بِيَقِينِهِ!

وَهذِهِ حُجَّتِي إِلَى غَيْرِكَ قَصْدُهَا، وَلكِنِّي أَطْلَقْتُ لَكَ مِنْهَا بِقَدْرِ مَا سَنَحَ مِنْ ذِكْرِهَا.

 

Interestingly, this part kind of confirms a part of the story regarding the burning of Fatimah's SA house (where it was said that Imam Ali A.S was forced to pay allegiance), I think this story was found in The book of Sulaym ibn Qays if I remember right so it's interesting to see another source confirming something from that book (as it is believed that the book isn't fully authentic). But anyway I am not a scholar and can not say if this is authentic or not, at the end Allah SWT is the One who knows what truly happened.

Regarding the book The book of Sulaym ibn Qays, you keep mentioning it like it's the foundation of Shi'ism or something. There are other authentic narrations in other books confirming what Shias believe in, and confirming some things which exists in this book as well. This is a reason why many believe The book of Sulaym ibn Qays contains authentic narrations, since there are other books confirming those that exists in Sulaym's book. However I agree that it is wrong to believe that it is fully authentic, but as previously mentioned Shias got other books and just because those other sources mentions same things as Sulaym's book does, doesn't have to mean that it comes from this book...

 

 

 

Some other letters that is said to show us Imam Ali's A.S real view of Muawiya (you can not take one narration that says that Muawiya is like a brother who "only" rebel against him and believe that this is how Imam Ali A.S really thought of him, you have to look at all the narrations or letters that exists and see what Imam Ali A.S really meant like Shias do). 

 

Letter 32: To Mu'awiyah

 

You have ruined a large group of people whom you have deceived by your misguidance, and have flung them into the currents of your sea where darkness has covered them and misgivings toss them about. As a result they have strayed from the right path and turned on their backs. They turned their backs and pushed forward except those wise ones who came back because they left you after understanding you and ran towards Allah away from your assistance when you put them to troubles and deviated them from the middle path. Therefore, O Mu'awiyah, fear Allah about yourself and take away your rein from Satan, since this world is shortly to be cut off from you and the next world is near you; and that is an end to the matter.

وَأَرْدَيْتَ جِيلاً مِنَ النَّاسِ كَثِيراً، خَدَعْتَهُمْ بِغَيِّكَ، وَأَلْقَيْتَهُمْ فِي مَوْجِ بَحْرِكَ، تَغْشَاهُمُ الظُّلُمَاتُ،تَتَلاَطَمُ بِهِمُ الشُّبُهَاتُ، فَجاروا عَنْ وِجْهَتِهِمْ، وَنَكَصُوا عَلَى أَعْقَابِهِمْ، وَتَوَلَّوْا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِمْ، وَعَوَّلُوا عَلَى أحْسَابِهِمْ، إِلاَّ مَنْ فَاءَ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْبَصَائِرِ، فَإِنَّهُمْ فَارَقُوكَ بَعْدَ مَعْرِفَتِكَ، وَهَرَبُوا إِلَى اللهِ سُبحانَهُ مِنْ مُوَازَرَتِكَ، إِذْ حَمَلْتَهُمْ عَلَى الصَّعْبِ، وَعَدَلْتَ بِهِمْ عَنِ الْقَصْدِ.

فَاتَّقِ اللهَ يَا مُعَاوِيَةُ فِي نَفْسِكَ، وَجَاذِبِ الشَّيْطَانَ قيَادَكَ، فَإِنَّ الدُّنْيَا مُنْقَطِعَةٌ عَنْكَ،

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-32-muawiyah

 

Letter 64: To Mu'awiyah

 

Now then, certainly, we and you were on amiable terms as you say but difference arose between us and you the other day, when we accepted belief (iman) and you rejected it. Today the position is that we are steadfast (in the belief) but you are creating mischief. Those of you who accepted Islam did so reluctantly and that too when all the chief men had accepted Islam and joined the Messenger of Allah- (may Allah bless him and his descendants).

أَمَّا بَعْدُ، فَإِنَّا كُنَّا نَحْنُ وَأَنْتُمْ عَلَى مَا ذَكَرْتَ مِنَ الاْلْفَةِ وَالْجَمَاعَةِ، فَفَرَّقَ بيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمْ أَمْسِ أَنَّا آمَنَّا وَكَفَرْتُمْ، وَالْيَوْمَ أَنَّا اسْتَقَمْنَا وَفُتِنْتُمْ، وَمَا أَسْلَمَ مُسْلِمُكُمْ إِلاَّ كَرْهاً، وَبَعْدَ أَنْ كَانَ أَنْفُ الاْسْلاَمِ كُلُّهُ لِرَسُولِ اللهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) حرباً.

 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-64-reply-muawiyah

 

_____

 

There are probably more sermons in Nahjul Balagha about Imamat / Ahlulbayt A.S right so if anyone got their references please share them.

 

 

Just wanted to share my thoughts, and if I've said anything wrong please correct me. 

May Allah SWT guide us all to the straight path. 

Wsalam

Brother, nice post, Masha-Allah

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