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Ali_Hussain

Hamza Yusuf attacked for supposedly racist comment

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السلام عليكم و رحمة الله

There is a lot of controversy right now about Hamza Yusuf having made supposedly racist comment in a recent interview with Mehdi Hassan, I have listened to the interview, I personally don't find anything wrong with it.

For those that find it racist, what points do you disagree with him on?

 

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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He also talked down on Muslim Brotherhood and Hizb Tahrir saying they were the precursors to Al-Qaeda. This speech was awesome.

A lot of young Muslims in the West are just militant leftist / marxist types who put an Islamic cloak over it all, so they are more sensitive about issues of "white privilege" than about the actual creed of Islam.

So a speaker could say "Shi'a Rafidah will all burn in Hell!" and that would get no controversy except among us. But if you display white privilege or talk bad about Black Lives Matter or Muslim Brotherhood,  then the Islamic twitter brigades will come after you.

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2 hours ago, ChattingwithShias said:

He also talked down on Muslim Brotherhood and Hizb Tahrir saying they were the precursors to Al-Qaeda. This speech was awesome.

A lot of young Muslims in the West are just militant leftist / marxist types who put an Islamic cloak over it all, so they are more sensitive about issues of "white privilege" than about the actual creed of Islam.

So a speaker could say "Shi'a Rafidah will all burn in Hell!" and that would get no controversy except among us. But if you display white privilege or talk bad about Black Lives Matter or Muslim Brotherhood,  then the Islamic twitter brigades will come after you.

Are these the words of Hamza Yusuf?

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2 hours ago, ChattingwithShias said:

He also talked down on Muslim Brotherhood and Hizb Tahrir saying they were the precursors to Al-Qaeda. This speech was awesome.

I think he is starting to become for the US what Abu Yusuf was for the Abbasids

Edited by Al-Qibli

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Racism in the US is institutionalized, there is no denying this fact.  As was the case with Sheikh Sodagar, some of these scholars just love to give their opinion on every issue left right and centre.  They obviously end up sounding ignorant if you consider certain specifics they are addressing.  It is unfortunate because he said a lot of things which are true.

If you take a look at some of the reaction to his comments, a lot of it is criticism from other western sunni scholars, who I tend to despise, but Sheikh Hamze brought this on himself.

Edited by King

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@Qa'im Great post. Can you copy, paste, and email this to every Muslim in the world. 

Again, I am even more damn adamant that the only way to survive for Muslims is to STICK to the Quran and the family of the prophet. Otherwise we will be swept away by the global tides of LGBT, SJW, feminism, and all the other crap. I have even heard of one dumb woman SJW advocating killing male babies. 

We MUST raise our sons looking at Muhammad PBUH, Ali as, Hussein as, and all the other prophets and imams as role models and people to emulate. Not bloody 'lil Wayne' or drake or any other slime ball. 

We MUST raise our daughters looking at Fatima as, Zainab as, Khadija as, Maryam (as) as role models and people to emulate. Not bloody Kate Perry or rhianna strutting around with 99.99% of their cleavage out and showing signs of lesbianism. 

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Mehdi Hassan doesn't have any original opinions of his own. He just adopts the dominant viewpoints of the liberal world in he inhabits, while trying desperately to remain within the bounds of orthodox Islam. No surprise then that he thinks that Black Loves Matter is a legitimate movement.

Hamza Yusuf didn't say anything wrong, and anyone who thinks there was even a hint of racism in any of what he said probably needs to leave their safe space for a little while to interact with the real world. The fact that there are people out there, like the individual brother @Islamic Salvation quoted above, who think that unless you are black then you aren't capable of commenting on anything to do with the 'black community' is mind blowing. Of course, that's unless you want to join them in this mindless droning on about 'institutional racism'. Sure, there is racism out there, but it's not 'institutional racism' that forces people to have kids out of wedlock or to take drugs. I doubt anyone believes that society has become more racist since the 60's, but some of the social problems in the black community have certainly gotten worse.

The Muslim youth really need to stay away from this Social Justice Warrior mentality that seems to be rife in Western universities these days.

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33 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Of course, that's unless you want to join them in this mindless droning on about 'institutional racism'. Sure, there is racism out there, but it's not 'institutional racism' that forces people to have kids out of wedlock or to take drugs. I doubt anyone believes that society has become more racist since the 60's, but some of the social problems in the black community have certainly gotten worse.

The Muslim youth really need to stay away from this Social Justice Warrior mentality that seems to be rife in Western universities these days.

What a terribly ignorant thing to say.  Are you kidding me?

There is no institutional racism? Ever heard of the war on drugs? Ever heard of criminalization of black lives? Ever heard of racial juries? Do you have any idea of the kind of sentences African Americans get for the same crimes? These policies have had drastic consequences.

You couple all that with spending/social cuts with disproportionately effect the poorest members in society, which happen to be African America or other minorities.

People don't just grow up and decide to be gang members and drug addicts.  The institutional factors at play are extremely well documented if you would bother to look.  

Edited by King

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5 hours ago, King said:

What a terribly ignorant thing to say.  Are you kidding me?

Things haven't gotten worse since the 60's? Ever heard of the war on drugs? Ever heard of criminalization of black lives? Ever heard of racial juries? Do you have any idea of the kind of sentences African Americans get for the same crimes? These policies have had drastic consequences.

Ah, of course, anyone who has a different interpretation of the facts must be 'ignorant'. All I see here are a load of buzzwords with no actually explanation of how exactly this racism translates into these problems in black society. Plenty of black people manage to avoid them by the way, so what makes them special? Are they immune from this racism? Or do they just take personal responsibility for their actions?

Fighting drugs is a bad thing? How about just not taking them, rather than glorifying drug dealing and drug taking in popular culture.

You'll have to explain to me what 'criminalisation of black lives' means. Does it have something to do with enforcing laws that many in the black community break?

Yes, there are racist juries in many parts of the country, and there have been many miscarriages of justice against black people. There is no denying that. However, the vast majority of black people that end up in court do so because they are guilty of crimes. Is institutional racism forcing them to commit these crimes?

Please tell me though how much longer you think black convicts get for the same crimes as white people, backed up with evidence.

 

Quote

You couple all that with spending/social cuts with disproportionately effect the poorest members in society, which happen to be African America or other minorities.

 

 

Quote

People don't just grow up and decide to be gang members and drug addicts.  The institutional factors at play are extremely well documented if you would bother to look.  

I happen to believe that people have freedom of choice. People choose to make music that glorifies drug dealing and pimping, and people chose to listen to it. Is that not a sign of a cultural problem?

It's funny how white people choose to be racist, Pakistanis (for example) choose to force their daughters into marriage, Somalis (for example) choose to practice FGM, etc. In all these cases we would say there is a cultural problem that needs to be eradicated. But somehow there are no cultural problems within the black community? They only have things done to them. This isn't serious.

As for poverty, no doubt it's a massive factor. But many orientals (Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese) came to America with nothing, and experienced racism. Don't forget the incarceration of the Japanese during WWII. However, we don't see massive amounts of crime in their communities, and they disproportionately overachieve compared to the rest of the American population. In try U.K., there are many ethnic minorities who come from a poor background who also perform disproportionately well compared to the rest of the population in education. In fact both in America and the UK, black immigrants from certain parts of Africa (like Nigeria for example) also tend to do very well as a community.

Putting all the flaws in any community simply down to racism and poverty is just laziness. They are certainly factors, but not the only ones, and certainly not the determining ones.

 

Edited by Haydar Husayn
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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

The fact that there are people out there, like the individual brother @Islamic Salvation quoted above, who think that unless you are black then you aren't capable of commenting on anything to do with the 'black community' is mind blowing.

This is very key. One of the SJW cornerstones is that you have no right to comment on a group's issue unless you belong to that group. A white person commenting on black affairs, even to defend black people, is considered a racist by liberals because he is "whitesplaining". Franchesca Ramsey recently appeared in a video arguing that very point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-p8dOqf3P4

The result of this thinking however is potentially devastating. It means that white people will no longer speak up against racism, because they don't want to appear racist or patronizing. It also means that educated people with legitimate views will be silenced simply due to their race. It also limits outsider perspectives, which are always necessary in a democracy, as every group should be critiqued and held accountable by outsiders. Strange enough, it's also kind of contradictory to multiculturalism - by saying only black people can speak about black issues, and women can only be feminists, and males are inherently privileged, you end up segregating society further. A white male like Hamza Yusuf speaking about race relations or women's issues does not contradict the ethics of our religion - I'm not saying he's right or wrong, I'm saying that he has the right to speak on these issues especially as a trained scholar.

52 minutes ago, King said:

There is no institutional racism? Ever heard of the war on drugs? Ever heard of criminalization of black lives? Ever heard of racial juries? Do you have any idea of the kind of sentences African Americans get for the same crimes? These policies have had drastic consequences.

If we really care about redressing the race problems, then we need to think of real solutions. There are umpteen studies on the social effects of fatherlessness in households, yet the BLM website does not mention fathers (despite multiple references to "mothers and parents", referring to single mothers and gay couples), it even says "we are committed to disrupting" the idea of a nuclear family: http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/

 

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Ah, of course, anyone who has a different interpretation of the facts must be 'ignorant'. All I see here are a load of buzzwords with no actually explanation of how exactly this racism translates into these problems in black society. Plenty of black people manage to avoid them by the way, so what makes them special? Are they immune from this racism? Or do they just take personal responsibility for their actions?

Fighting drugs is a bad thing? How about just not taking them, rather than glorifying drug dealing and drug taking in popular culture.

You'lol have to explain to me what 'criminalisation of black lives' means. Does it have something to do with enforcing laws that many in the black community break?

Yes, there are racist juries in many parts of the country, and there have been many miscarriages of justice against black people. There is no denying that. However, the vast majority of black people that end up in court do so because they are guilty of crimes. Is institutional racism forcing them to commit these crimes?

Bro, you really sound silly. I don't want to waste my time elaborating on how the war on drugs and state policy has decimated black communities. Please, do us all a favour and spend more than 2 seconds researching things before making basement arguments that are beyond childish. This stuff is extremely well documented. 

1 hour ago, Qa'im said:

If we really care about redressing the race problems, then we need to think of real solutions. There are umpteen studies on the social effects of fatherlessness in households, yet the BLM website does not mention fathers (despite multiple references to "mothers and parents", referring to single mothers and gay couples), it even says "we are committed to disrupting" the idea of a nuclear family: http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/

Black lives matters does not have a monopoly on African American issues. Anyone seriously involved in black communities will tell you that lack of fathers is a serious problem, no one denies this.  What we as outsiders can do is to advocate policies that will encourage fathers to stay away from gangs/prisons and help raise/provide for their families.  This starts with more employment opportunities and less of putting young black men in jail for petty crimes from which they cannot recover.  The US has an incredibly high incarceration rate despite overall crime statistics which are on par with a lot of other developed nations.  

During the extremely brief periods of relative freedom which African Americans have experienced in US history, they have done quite well.  Post the second world war there was such a window of opportunity, black men were allowed to enter mainstream society and went to work, they were able to provide a decent life for their families instead of joining gangs. Most of this was reversed when black life was criminalized post the 70s during the neo-liberal assault.  Essentially slavery with a new name.  Prisoners are a labour force with no rights, and US businesses have exploited prison labour for decades. Anyone who is genuinely concerned about the predicament of African Americans in the US would look to influence policy, rather than sit back and engage in typical feel good blame the culture cop-outs.

 
Edited by King

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14 minutes ago, King said:

Bro, you really sound silly. I don't want to waste my time elaborating on how the war on drugs has decimated black communities. Please, do us all a favour and spend more than 2 seconds researching things before making basement arguments that are beyond childish. This stuff is extremely well documented. 

Once again, this has nothing to do with 'ignorance', but rather having a different opinion. Perhaps the difference between us is that I actually look at both sides of the argument. So since there is so much documentation, please provide some. Would you accept this as a reasonable example of the type of documentation that you are talking about, for example? https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/catosletterv9n1.pdf

By the way, the fact that there is plenty of literature on something, doesn't actually make it true.

 

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1 hour ago, King said:

Black lives matters does not have a monopoly on African American issues. Anyone seriously involved in black communities will tell you that lack of fathers is a serious problem, no one denies this.  What we as outsiders can do is to advocate policies that will encourage fathers to stay away from gangs/prisons and help raise/provide for their families.  This starts with more employment opportunities and less of putting young black men in jail for petty crimes from which they cannot recover.  The US has an incredibly high incarceration rate despite overall crime statistics which are on par with a lot of other developed nations.  

We're talking about Hamza Yusuf's comments on BLM. I agree that the War on Drugs has been a disaster, as well as mass incarceration (brought about by the Clintons...), but there comes a time where we must look at the organization and not just the issues. BLM does not have a monopoly on this issue, but on the streets and on social media it practically does. It's not the NAACP or the NOI organizing most of these rallies against police brutality, or starting trends on twitter. As the leading organization with millennials, it bears some responsibility in dealing with internal problems and not just "fighting the system". The guiding principles of BLM say nothing about straight black men, and in BLM and intellectual liberal circles, black men are regularly chided as lazy misogynists who are bad fathers and spouses - and that is blamed on white supremacy. So if BLM does not even address (and in some cases seeks to actively marginalize) nearly half the population, and fatherless homes lead to higher probabilities of gangs, suicides, incarceration, births out of wedlock, drug abuse, and psychological problems, then BLM is not an effective way to solve much.

The Shaykh was asked about BLM and Muslims joining alongside, and his answer (in my view) was one that was critical of identity politics as a means of redressing the serious race problems America has. If BLM is just an angry rebuke to the system, with few clear policy goals, then it has the potential of making problems worse - more violence against police officers (more police have died in 2016 than in the last 5 years, some during BLM protests), and worse race relations in coming months in years. Hamza Yusuf said that this only helps create the type of "whitelash" we saw with the election of Trump, which will only make things worse for minorities and not better.

I actually know the leader of BLM Toronto and her arrogance is unbearable. She truly believes in black racial superiority (I'd show you, but she deleted those comments after gaining notoriety) and has made a series of mysandric statements in the past. Add the LGBT stuff on top of it all, and you have an organization that no Muslim should be a part of.

Viewer discretion advised: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rd1diUhix0

 

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3 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Ah, of course, anyone who has a different interpretation of the facts must be 'ignorant'. All I see here are a load of buzzwords with no actually explanation of how exactly this racism translates into these problems in black society. Plenty of black people manage to avoid them by the way, so what makes them special? Are they immune from this racism? Or do they just take personal responsibility for their actions?

Fighting drugs is a bad thing? How about just not taking them, rather than glorifying drug dealing and drug taking in popular culture.

You'lol have to explain to me what 'criminalisation of black lives' means. Does it have something to do with enforcing laws that many in the black community break?

Yes, there are racist juries in many parts of the country, and there have been many miscarriages of justice against black people. There is no denying that. However, the vast majority of black people that end up in court do so because they are guilty of crimes. Is institutional racism forcing them to commit these crimes?

Please tell me though how much longer you think black convicts get for the same crimes as white people, backed up with evidence.

I think he's speaking about the Nixon thing, apparently the drug war was created to target blacks and hippies.

And also that marijuana usage is the same when it comes to whites and blacks, but the counter-arguement is there are more cops in black neighbourhoods due to other reasons.

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38 minutes ago, E.L King said:

I think he's speaking about the Nixon thing, apparently the drug war was created to target blacks and hippies.

Possibly, but you can only targeted if you are taking drugs in the first place. There were plenty of black people and organisations calling for tougher drug laws due to the problems they were causing in black communities. Who would want to live among a bunch of drug dealers and drug takers? Of course, that stuff doesn't get mentioned so much anymore. Also unmentioned is the success groups such as the Nation of Islam have had in dealing with drug problems in black communities. (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1989-04-23/news/8904060551_1_black-muslims-muslim-representative-rough-justice)

It's easy to blame someone else for all your problems, but that doesn't actually solve anything. You have to do as much as you can for yourself first.

38 minutes ago, E.L King said:

And also that marijuana usage is the same when it comes to whites and blacks, but the counter-arguement is there are more cops in black neighbourhoods due to other reasons.

Not just that. White people are more likely to sell to people they know, rather than to people they don't. This obviously reduces the risk of being caught dealing. And this is what most people go to jail for, dealing, not consumption.

There are arguments both ways on these issues, but in the simplistic world that some people inhabit, there is never any room for debate. You just have to submit to the dominant narrative. And if you don't, it must be because you are 'ignorant'.

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The kind of ignorant comments expressed on this thread is the reason why there are so few Black converts to Shi'a Islam in the US. By and large the Shi'a community is far more racist than the Sunni ones... The reason is that Shi'a centers are almost entirely cultural projects to keep alive the language and culture of the immigrant communities (Urdu, Arabic, Farsi etc. ) ... so they have little or no actual exposure to Black lives (let alone for it to matter for most of 'em).  The situation is actually a bit better for Sunnis (sans Hamza Yusuf types and his followers who are mostly non-Black Muslims) - because the Sunni dawa work, attracts Black Americans. (Ironically, when Black Americans actually get to know Shi'a Islam (outside of the bogus cultural contexts of Pakistanis, Iranians, Indians, Arab immigrants etc.) - they find that this school of Islam, far more than anything else, jives with their real life experiences.) .  What has taken place is that Hamza Yusuf and others have fully exposed their racist attitudes - and that is good - because now the issue of how African Americans are treated by immigrant and non-Black Muslims is totally out in the open.  

Unfortunately, what is likely to happen is that the immigrant and non-Black community will even more isolate themselves from Black Muslims, and they will do that even more because in the era of Trump being a racist will become a pre-requisite to being accepted as an American. OTOH - there may even be yet another layer to this that Trump et al. can use the racist attitudes of immigrant Muslims to point out to the African Americans that Islam really has nothing to offer them... and they should join the Trump crusade against Muslims.  

Definitely some interesting times ahead. 

 

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8 hours ago, E.L King said:

I think he's speaking about the Nixon thing, apparently the drug war was created to target blacks and hippies.

And also that marijuana usage is the same when it comes to whites and blacks, but the counter-arguement is there are more cops in black neighbourhoods due to other reasons.

Actually there are less cops in Black neighborhoods. That is why all the illegal activity, drug dealing, prostitution, manufacturing of drugs, car theft and chop shops, etc, goes on in these neighborhoods. Thus they are less safe, thus anyone with any sort of wealth moves out, leaving these neighborhoods as basically composed of poor people and criminals. This creates all sorts of other problems, as you can see. 

As some of you know, but some may not know, police are funded by local taxes, collected by the city. Because of this, the less money the city collects (and obviously they collect less money from poor people), the less police there are. Also schools are funded by local taxes, so the more poor people there are in an area, the less police there are, and the less money the schools have. 

This stupid policy leads to many areas in the US, usually surrounding big cities, which are basically like third world countries. In one area of Chicago this past year, an area probably the size of West Beirut or equivalent, there were 748 murders, in one year. And it's getting worse. You don't see these areas on TV (well maybe if you watch a show like COPS you do), so most people who live in other countries think they don't exist. 

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9 hours ago, skylight2 said:

The kind of ignorant comments expressed on this thread is the reason why there are so few Black converts to Shi'a Islam in the US. By and large the Shi'a community is far more racist than the Sunni ones...

It's very possible that the Shi`a community is more racist than the Sunni one, but there is a large amount of racism is both. I don't see any examples of that in this thread though. Rather than just using the easy cop-out of calling everything you disagree with 'ignorant' (and it's not clear what exactly you are referring to anyway), maybe make an actual argument.

9 hours ago, skylight2 said:

The reason is that Shi'a centers are almost entirely cultural projects to keep alive the language and culture of the immigrant communities (Urdu, Arabic, Farsi etc. ) ... so they have little or no actual exposure to Black lives (let alone for it to matter for most of 'em).  The situation is actually a bit better for Sunnis (sans Hamza Yusuf types and his followers who are mostly non-Black Muslims) - because the Sunni dawa work, attracts Black Americans. (Ironically, when Black Americans actually get to know Shi'a Islam (outside of the bogus cultural contexts of Pakistanis, Iranians, Indians, Arab immigrants etc.) - they find that this school of Islam, far more than anything else, jives with their real life experiences.) .  What has taken place is that Hamza Yusuf and others have fully exposed their racist attitudes - and that is good - because now the issue of how African Americans are treated by immigrant and non-Black Muslims is totally out in the open.  

What racist attitudes has Hamza Yusuf shown? You've got people in the Muslim communities who would disown their kids if they married a black Muslim. That's racism. Having some pretty mild criticisms of some elements of the black community is not racism, anymore than criticising elements of any other group is. Is it racist towards whites to point out that there exists a significant racist element within their communities. Does someone have to be a Muslim to be able to criticise some of the major issues that exist within the Muslim community? We need to be consistent here. You can't have one rule for one group, and a different rule for everyone else. That's what you call privilege.

I agree with you about the fact that many Shi`a (and Sunni) centres serve primarily as cultural centres, and that is certainly a potential barrier towards bringing people into Islam. This is true for many ethnicities though (white, Hispanic, oriental, etc), although it is probably worst for black people.

9 hours ago, skylight2 said:

Unfortunately, what is likely to happen is that the immigrant and non-Black community will even more isolate themselves from Black Muslims, and they will do that even more because in the era of Trump being a racist will become a pre-requisite to being accepted as an American. OTOH - there may even be yet another layer to this that Trump et al. can use the racist attitudes of immigrant Muslims to point out to the African Americans that Islam really has nothing to offer them... and they should join the Trump crusade against Muslims.  

Definitely some interesting times ahead. 

 

I don't see this happening at all, and it's amazing that you leap to these kind of conclusions based on some incredibly mild remarks.

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17 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Once again, this has nothing to do with 'ignorance', but rather having a different opinion. Perhaps the difference between us is that I actually look at both sides of the argument. So since there is so much documentation, please provide some. Would you accept this as a reasonable example of the type of documentation that you are talking about, for example? https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/catosletterv9n1.pdf

By the way, the fact that there is plenty of literature on something, doesn't actually make it true.

 

You clearly demonstrated ignorance, the arguments you are making are repeated by idiots on fox news on a daily basis, they are extremely simple minded and not grounded in any genuine desire to understand how we got here.

I am a bit busy right now but I will dig up a few research articles and books you can look at if you are indeed genuinely interested, but I highly doubt you are. When I said there is plenty of literature out there, I meant that you should bother to check it out, before lending an uninformed critique on a sensitive and serious topic.

16 hours ago, Qa'im said:

We're talking about Hamza Yusuf's comments on BLM. I agree that the War on Drugs has been a disaster, as well as mass incarceration (brought about by the Clintons...), but there comes a time where we must look at the organization and not just the issues. BLM does not have a monopoly on this issue, but on the streets and on social media it practically does. It's not the NAACP or the NOI organizing most of these rallies against police brutality, or starting trends on twitter. As the leading organization with millennials, it bears some responsibility in dealing with internal problems and not just "fighting the system". The guiding principles of BLM say nothing about straight black men, and in BLM and intellectual liberal circles, black men are regularly chided as lazy misogynists who are bad fathers and spouses - and that is blamed on white supremacy. So if BLM does not even address (and in some cases seeks to actively marginalize) nearly half the population, and fatherless homes lead to higher probabilities of gangs, suicides, incarceration, births out of wedlock, drug abuse, and psychological problems, then BLM is not an effective way to solve much.

The Shaykh was asked about BLM and Muslims joining alongside, and his answer (in my view) was one that was critical of identity politics as a means of redressing the serious race problems America has. If BLM is just an angry rebuke to the system, with few clear policy goals, then it has the potential of making problems worse - more violence against police officers (more police have died in 2016 than in the last 5 years, some during BLM protests), and worse race relations in coming months in years. Hamza Yusuf said that this only helps create the type of "whitelash" we saw with the election of Trump, which will only make things worse for minorities and not better.

I actually know the leader of BLM Toronto and her arrogance is unbearable. She truly believes in black racial superiority (I'd show you, but she deleted those comments after gaining notoriety) and has made a series of mysandric statements in the past. Add the LGBT stuff on top of it all, and you have an organization that no Muslim should be a part of.

Viewer discretion advised: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rd1diUhix0

I am aware of the BLM leader in Toronto, I have seen her downtown, she is despicable and not representative of what the movement is all about.  The BLM is a natural reaction to what has been transpiring in the country.  A lot of their concerns and proposals are sensible.  They have their share of extremist elements and these tend to grab the headlines. I don't appreciate these people more than any of you and their antics do more harm than good but that doesn't mean you dismiss an entire movement completely. There are a lot of good people, even prominent figures that are apart of it.  Hamza as well as shias should acknowledge the institutional factors at play here.  It is one thing to be critical of BLM, it is another matter entirely to absolve the US state of blame.

Edited by King

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1 minute ago, King said:

You clearly demonstrated ignorance, the arguments you are making are repeated by idiots on fox news on a daily basis, they are extremely simple minded and not grounded in any genuine desire to understand how we got here.

I don't watch fox news enough to know whether they makes these kinds of arguments, but while I have certainly seen plenty of stupid arguments on there, I've also seen just as much on channels like MSNBC. Left-wing stupidity is just as bad as right-wing stupidity.

What I don't understand is this idea that arguments can just be dismissed by calling them 'ignorant'. It would never even cross my mind to do such a thing. Why not just present the counter-argument?

1 minute ago, King said:

I am a bit busy right now but I will dig up a few research articles and books you can look at if you are indeed genuinely interested, but I highly doubt you are.

Why would you assume that? Unlike you I'm not wedded to any particular political stance (even if I am in the case of religion), so I'm willing to go wherever the evidence leads, since being a Muslim doesn't really imply I need to take any particular position on this matter. I doubt that's the case for you. In all the posts I have read of you on here, you come across as someone who puts his left-wing politics above anything else, and rarely try to think outside of your little bubble. You have this typical liberal superiority complex where you think you are more enlightened than everyone else, and no other points of view are even worth considering.

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Just now, Haydar Husayn said:

 I've also seen just as much on channels like MSNBC. Left-wing stupidity is just as bad as right-wing stupidity.

 

Are you referring to Rachel Maddow by any chance? I don't know what it is about her, but she really gets on my nerves. 

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10 minutes ago, King said:

It is one thing to be critical of BLM, it is another matter entirely to absolve the US state of blame.

Nobody is 'entirely absolving the US state of blame', and you know it. If anyone is putting the blame entirely on one side or the other, it's you.

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Just now, Pearl178 said:

Are you referring to Rachel Maddow by any chance? I don't know what it is about her, but she really gets on my nerves. 

She's one example, but not the only one. The channel is every bit as bad as FOX News in terms of stupidity shown. Of course, they are much more 'Muslim-friendly', so Muslims are more likely to give them a free pass.

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1 hour ago, King said:

I am aware of the BLM leader in Toronto, I have seen her downtown, she is despicable and not representative of what the movement is all about.  The BLM is a natural reaction to what has been transpiring in the country.  A lot of their concerns and proposals are sensible.  They have their share of extremist elements and these tend to grab the headlines. I don't appreciate these people more than any of you and their antics do more harm than good but that doesn't mean you dismiss an entire movement completely. There are a lot of good people, even prominent figures that are apart of it.  Hamza as well as shias should acknowledge the institutional factors at play here.  It is one thing to be critical of BLM, it is another matter entirely to absolve the US state of blame.

Ultimately I agree that we shouldn't lose focus on the institutional factors at play, and I've acknowledged that in earlier posts. RIS by the way has been guilty of not wanting to talk about warrantless wiretapping and spying on Muslim communities, drone strikes, U.S foreign policy and Arab dictators, and that is why Tariq Ramadan and Tareq Suweidan stopped coming. As for BLM, I have preferred the approach of other black organizations, because self-help and traditional values can slow down the downward spiral of the black community, and more identity politics can make things worse for all minorities in Europe and North America.

As for the social media poopooing of Shaykh Hamza, let's keep in mind that the Muslim community in America in the 60s and 70s was largely an organic one (the biggest being Warith Deen Muhammad's movement), made up of working-class African Americans and white converts. The early Muslim immigrants to America even joined these communities and worked closely with them. But the big influx of bourgeois Muslim immigrants in the 80s and 90s, with their foreign funding (from Saudi and elsewhere), established their own separate communities, bought out the existing communities / swallowed them up, then ostracized the native population, until they almost fizzed out completely. Now, some of those same upper-middle class children of immigrants think they can be pro-black because of their liberal arts degree, a Malcolm quote and a BLM march, yet they themselves would never marry a black person, or volunteer with the homeless or at a prison, or mingle with working-class people in general. As someone who has decent connections within the African American Muslim community in the U.S, I can tell you that these second-generation Muslims really mean nothing to them, and often do more harm than good.

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7 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

In all the posts I have read of you on here, you come across as someone who puts his left-wing politics above anything else, and rarely try to think outside of your little bubble.

@King It's hard not to get this impression. ..

Edited by magma

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