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In the Name of God بسم الله

Umar died an unbeliever

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jmo

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24 minutes ago, jmo said:

Umar bin Khattab, the 2nd Khalif died as an unbeliever according to Quran 3:91 and his own testimony recorded in Sahih Bukhari.

The Quran is a miraculous book indeed.  Look how the unbeliever uttered the same words that Allah (swt) reserved for the unbelievers.

Furthermore, if Umar was promised paradise as Sunnis claim, then why was Umar terrified of Allah's punishment and why didn't Ibn Abbas remind him that he was promised paradise?

either Umar didn't believe or trust in the Messenger (saws) or the hadith of the 10 promised paradise is a fabrication.

In any case, here is the evidence that proves Umar died an unbeliever.

Quran: https://quran.com/3:91

Hadith: http://bit.ly/2h4b8s1

C0S1n9OXEAEOi6v.jpg:large

WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. Perfect brother! What a finding..

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14 minutes ago, DigitalUmmah said:

it is also interesting that on his deathbed, he asked for nabidh (wine made from dates). surely if one is about to die and they are a muslim, they do not want to commit any major sins on their deathbed?

Interesting... but let me ask you this...wasn't he not allowed to drink anything since it was all leaking out of the big hole in his stomach?

My history might be a little rusty. 

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Just now, Akbar673 said:

Interesting... but let me ask you this...wasn't he not allowed to drink anything since it was all leaking out of the big hole in his stomach?

My history might be a little rusty. 

dunno, it seems he did drink though

Sunan Abu Daud Book 26, Number 3707:

"I knew that the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to keep fast. I waited for the day when he did not fast to present him the drink (nabidh), which I made in a pumpkin. I then brought it to him while it fermented. He said: Throw it to this wall, for this is a drink of the one who does not believe in Allah and the Last Day"."

Ahl'ul Sunnah's classical work Riyadh al Nadira Volume 2 page 351:

"Whilst on his deathbed, Umar became deeply affected by the wound and his physician asked Umar 'Which alcohol would you like to drink?' Umar said 'alcohol called nabidh is my preferred choice. This drink was then administered to Umar".

 

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52 minutes ago, jmo said:

Umar bin Khattab, the 2nd Khalif died as an unbeliever according to Quran 3:91 and his own testimony recorded in Sahih Bukhari.

The Quran is a miraculous book indeed.  Look how the unbeliever uttered the same words that Allah (swt) reserved for the unbelievers.

Furthermore, if Umar was promised paradise as Sunnis claim, then why was Umar terrified of Allah's punishment and why didn't Ibn Abbas remind him that he was promised paradise?

either Umar didn't believe or trust in the Messenger (saws) or the hadith of the 10 promised paradise is a fabrication.

In any case, here is the evidence that proves Umar died an unbeliever.

Quran: https://quran.com/3:91

Hadith: http://bit.ly/2h4b8s1

C0S1n9OXEAEOi6v.jpg:large

Not only 3:91 but also according to this verse;

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 15:

فَالْيَوْمَ لَا يُؤْخَذُ مِنكُمْ فِدْيَةٌ وَلَا مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مَأْوَاكُمُ النَّارُ هِيَ مَوْلَاكُمْ وَبِئْسَ الْمَصِيرُ

So today ransom shall not be accepted from you nor from those who disbelieved; your abode is the fire; it is your friend and evil is the resort.

(English - Shakir)

 

The phrase "heya moulakum" is very meaningful in this verse. :) 

 

 

 

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You can discuss this topic if you guys want to, but when you do so, bear in mind the devastating consequences it will have. I could bring forth many ulema who would advise laymen like us to keep away from topics about belief or unbelief and making takfir on khulafah.

Ofcourse, discussion is allowed, debate is allowed, but certain things i.e making takfir of khulafah, is suicidal.

It would have been better to discuss the guilt the second caliph showed in this narration and why, but not takfir.

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9 minutes ago, uponthesunnah said:

It would have been better to discuss the guilt the second caliph showed in this narration and why, but not takfir.

But discussing the guilt of Umar ibn Khattab and why in this narration is naturally going to lead someone bringing up takfir in some way or form.

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7 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

But discussing the guilt of Umar ibn Khattab and why in this narration is naturally going to lead someone bringing up takfir in some way or form.

I'm no fan of anyone who usurped the rightful role of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, but i think, and i say this with some insight having salafi family members and sunni family members, that it would more effective to discuss other aspects of the second caliphs alive , rather than if he was a disbeliever or not a disbeliever. 

All i know is that discussion is often like lighting gasoline on dynamite. 

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7 hours ago, Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) said:

Nothing brother, no devastating consequences. The brother has provided Quranic verse and hadith as a proof and no one is making any bogus claim. So chill.

Believe me, discussions like these, when carried out commonly in this fashion are devastating. Heads get chopped off and in dark corners of parts of Britian, America, France, you hear immense and almost frightening propaganda aimed at the 'accursed filthy rawafidh'. 

 

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3 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

Believe me, discussions like these, when carried out commonly in this fashion are devastating. Heads get chopped off and in dark corners of parts of Britian, America, France, you hear immense and almost frightening propaganda aimed at the 'accursed filthy rawafidh'. 

I wonder why Ismailis, Hindus, Christians and others are getting chopped off. Because they do takfir on Omar? 

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8 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

dunno, it seems he did drink though

Sunan Abu Daud Book 26, Number 3707:

"I knew that the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to keep fast. I waited for the day when he did not fast to present him the drink (nabidh), which I made in a pumpkin. I then brought it to him while it fermented. He said: Throw it to this wall, for this is a drink of the one who does not believe in Allah and the Last Day"."

Ahl'ul Sunnah's classical work Riyadh al Nadira Volume 2 page 351:

"Whilst on his deathbed, Umar became deeply affected by the wound and his physician asked Umar 'Which alcohol would you like to drink?' Umar said 'alcohol called nabidh is my preferred choice. This drink was then administered to Umar".

 

Thank you both, this will be my next info graphic.  Stay tuned.

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4 minutes ago, Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) said:

I wonder why Ismailis, Hindus, Christians and others are getting chopped off. Because they do takfir on Omar? 

Our Ulema have warned us against making claims like these or discussing issues like these. Perhaps you might want to pose your question to Ayatullah Wahid Khorasani, Ayatullah Sistani, or Ayatullah Khamanei.

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Just now, uponthesunnah said:

Our Ulema have warned us against making claims like these or discussing issues like these. Perhaps you might want to pose your question to Ayatullah Wahid Khorasani, Ayatullah Sistani, or Ayatullah Khamanei.

I say again whatever people are discussing is with proofs and not 'shooting in the air'. No one abused or cursed anyone. 

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9 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

it is also interesting that on his deathbed, he asked for nabidh (wine made from dates). surely if one is about to die and they are a muslim, they do not want to commit any major sins on their deathbed?

Be careful when making points that are not valid. This is a general comment and not aimed at you, but when we make weak points, in the eyes of those we try to debate against, we lose credibility.

There is nothing in the books or reports of the Sunnah to suggest that ‘Umar  drank alcohol; in fact the most that has been narrated concerning that is that hedrank nabeedh [a drink made by steeping dates in water]. That is proven in the story of his death, when the doctor gave him nabeedh to drink. The word nabeedh may refer to alcohol or it may also refer to the water in which dates or raisins are steeped until the water becomes sweet, then it is drunk before it ferments. The latter is what ‘Umardrank. The Messenger (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) also used to drink it, and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is permissible.

Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) came on his mount, with Usaamah behind him, and asked for something to drink. We gave him a vessel of nabeedh and he drank it, and he gave his leftovers to Usaamah to drink, and he said: “You have done good and have done well. Carry on doing that.” 

Narrated by Muslim (1316) 

An-Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

Nabeedh is water sweetened with raisins and the like, so that it has a pleasant taste, but it does not cause intoxication. But if it is steeped for too long and becomes intoxicating, it is haraam. 

End quote from Sharh Saheeh Muslim (9/64) 

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11 minutes ago, kirtc said:

Salam,

These proofs although true don't really benefit us in anyway. If you believe in shia-sm you believe in shia-sm. You dont have to keep finding proofs that shia-sm is right. It is a waste of time. How about learning about shia-ism instead. 

Salaam bro, this is important for those occasions a Sunni gives you a hard time about Umar being promised paradise or Umar being the next prophet if there was one and so on.

The point is to give them a simple and reasonable question to answer and hopefully will be guided through it if they are seeking the truth.

With regards to your 2nd point please dont let me stop you from posting educational content about Shiaism. Also, if there is a particular topic you had in mind please let me know.  I'm always looking for thought provoking content to create infographics with.

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49 minutes ago, jmo said:

Salaam bro, this is important for those occasions a Sunni gives you a hard time about Umar being promised paradise or Umar being the next prophet if there was one and so on.

The point is to give them a simple and reasonable question to answer and hopefully will be guided through it if they are seeking the truth.

With regards to your 2nd point please dont let me stop you from posting educational content about Shiaism. Also, if there is a particular topic you had in mind please let me know.  I'm always looking for thought provoking content to create infographics with.

Salam,

Mashallah thanks, how about content from Nahj ul balagha. That is what I read to become shia. Only after the first few paragraphs was enough. Maybe you should try to make info-graphics about the part where Ali a.s describes Allah swt..

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8 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

The Messenger (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) also used to drink it, and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is permissible.

MashaAllah

Sunan Abu Daud Book 26, Number 3707:

"I knew that the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to keep fast. I waited for the day when he did not fast to present him the drink (nabidh), which I made in a pumpkin. I then brought it to him while it fermented. He said: Throw it to this wall, for this is a drink of the one who does not believe in Allah and the Last Day"."

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17 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

it is also interesting that on his deathbed, he asked for nabidh (wine made from dates). surely if one is about to die and they are a muslim, they do not want to commit any major sins on their deathbed?

Is it wine? :/ Are you talking about the drink that looks like champagne but supposedly non-alcoholic?

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Just now, Pearl178 said:

Is it wine? :/ Are you talking about the drink that looks like champagne but supposedly non-alcoholic?

no - the olden day version was fermented date juice. it was the alcohol of choice during the days of jahaliyyah. omar had a lifelong addiction to it, even asking for it on his deathbed. sunnis argue that there is an unfermented version, and a fermented version, but in their same books the Holy Prophet (S) called it "the devils drink" so by my understanding, its haram in both forms. 

my argument is, that umar was a lifelong unbeliever (munafiq) and on his deathbed gave up the pretence and asked for nabidh because he knew he was dying and wanted one last hit. obviously I cannot prove his kufr since theres no hadith where umar admits he is a munafiq, but i think it is circumstantial evidence (similar to other hadith posted in this thread) that he wasnt a muslim. without any doubt a muslim would avoid major sins on his deathbed. 

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15 hours ago, uponthesunnah said:

Our Ulema have warned us against making claims like these or discussing issues like these. Perhaps you might want to pose your question to Ayatullah Wahid Khorasani, Ayatullah Sistani, or Ayatullah Khamanei.

The war against the Shias has nothing to do with theological matters anymore, It's more to do with  Shia dominance in the middle east. I'm sure you are aware of the proxy war that is taking place in the middle east, and with the grace of Almighty Iran is annihilating its opponents with it strategies, hence its becoming the dominant power in its region. 

The militia that is sponsored by the gulf states are becoming weak, so therefore they targeting Shias purely on the bases they want to put a  wedge amongst the moderate Sunnis and the Shias, it's all about eliminating Shia popularity in the region. 

 

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On Friday, December 23, 2016 at 5:46 AM, DigitalUmmah said:

sunnis argue that there is an unfermented version, and a fermented version, but in their same books the Holy Prophet (S) called it "the devils drink" so by my understanding, its haram in both forms. 

Can you explain why the unfermented drink is also haram? I don't get why some Muslims call it a sunnah of the Prophet (saws)  to drink unfermented nabidh if he said that it was the devil's drink. I'm confused, DigitalUmmah. 

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On 12/22/2016 at 11:24 PM, uponthesunnah said:

You can discuss this topic if you guys want to, but when you do so, bear in mind the devastating consequences it will have. I could bring forth many ulema who would advise laymen like us to keep away from topics about belief or unbelief and making takfir on khulafah.

Ofcourse, discussion is allowed, debate is allowed, but certain things i.e making takfir of khulafah, is suicidal.

It would have been better to discuss the guilt the second caliph showed in this narration and why, but not takfir.

I think, everyone is in "Rafidi mode" so please.. :D

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10 hours ago, magma said:

This discussion is just self serving diatribe to make people feel good about themselves. 

What difference does any of this make in your life? You already don't accept him as a valid representative of Islam anyway for a variety of valid reasons, why the need to weaken the case by heaping on speculative nonsense, when it serves no purpose whatsoever, other than ego peddling?

 

 

I don't know about others but It freshens the faith of mine. Its works like a c charger for my weaker concepts, secondly, it increased my knowledge about Quran. Why do you go to majalis and cry on Hussain every year, doesn't crying on Hussain freshens your faith? I really couldn't find your comment useful. Sorry.

Edited by Abrar Ahmed
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