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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Hey, I wanted to create this thread and, as a Baha'i, I am interested in creating a HEALTHY debate about whether or not Baha'u'llah and the Bab are truly prophets. 

I would request from all those who would like to comment to not insult anyone, including Baha'u'llah, the Bab. This is meant to be a healthy conversation. 

FYI, I speak perfect Arabic so I have no problem explaining things in Arabic or verses, etc. from the Baha'i writings. 

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Salam

Baha'is acknowledge Du'a Nudba as being words of Imams.

In that, it is said that Ali had the position of Aeron to Moses except there is no Prophet after him in that.

So what can that mean except there is no Prophet after Mohammad.

I think it's in kitabal itqaan that Baha'alllah quotes it.

 

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2 hours ago, Hamzah J. said:

Hey, I wanted to create this thread and, as a Baha'i, I am interested in creating a HEALTHY debate about whether or not Baha'u'llah and the Bab are truly prophets. 

I would request from all those who would like to comment to not insult anyone, including Baha'u'llah, the Bab. This is meant to be a healthy conversation. 

FYI, I speak perfect Arabic so I have no problem explaining things in Arabic or verses, etc. from the Baha'i writings. 

Not insulting you or anyone else. But no they weren't prophets 

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Yes. True, but the thing is. Daniel said in the Torah that he sealed the book and that there will be no book coming until the end of times. NIV Bible: But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."
Jesus says he is the truth, the way and the life and NO ONE shall come to the father except through him (Jesus).

In other words, Muhammad meant something else when it was revealed that he was the seal of prophets. He sealed one cycle of prophecy and ended it. Even Imam Sadiq said that the Qaim comes with a new book:

 يقوم القائم بأمر جديد وكتاب جديد وبقضاء جديد على العرب شديد

 

In another perspective, all prophets are one and the same, meaning that the "return of Jesus" symbolically also refers to the return of Muhammad, Moses, etc, which also means that the "return of Jesus" is the coming of a NEW prophet. 

 

What do you think

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I find funny how Bahais insist on interpreting so many verses non-literally including the day of judgement verses making it all about the manifestation day of a Manifestation (major founding Prophet), yet hadiths talking about a new book cannot be seen as exaggerated pose about the interpretation of Quran being so different than what people are taught and that the knowledge of the book will reach new heights.

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The verse regarding Daniel is 12:4 of the Christian Bible.

Regarding the hadith, this is the Sanad: وأخبرنا علي بن الحسين بإسناده عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبى نصر، عن عاصم ابن حميد الحناط، عن أبي بصير قال: قال أبو جعفر (عليه السلام): " يقوم القائم بأمر جديد، وكتاب جديد، وقضاء جديد ، على العرب شديد، ليس شأنه إلا السيف، لا يستتيب أحدا، ولا يأخذه في الله لومة لائم ". 
 

If you want the exact sources from Shi'i books, I am not sure as I currently am traveling and do not have my books with me. Any Google search and you will see how often it is repeated in Shi'i websites, despite its interpretation being different. 

 

As for you, LinkZelda, Baha'is don't cherry pick what is literal and what is metaphorical. You could try reading this: http://bahaiteachings.org/decoding-prophetic-code-one-bahai-example#

 

I really want to know your opinions. I want to engage in a proper "investigation of truth".

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P.S. prophets are alpha and omega, first and last. Finality of prophethood also means beginning of a new prophethood, if you get what I mean. They are one and the same. 

 

Another thing is that Muhammad is khatam al-nabiyyin, the last who prophecies OF judgement day. He's the last "prophet" who gives the "naba'," the great news and tidings of the coming of the new cycle, the day of judgment and the day when a new age will usher. He is however, not the final "resool," meaning that there will be further apostles and messengers coming. 

 

I understand the common Islamic argument that every nabi is a rasool; however, we reject that. We look the Arabic word, from the origin. Where in the Quran does it say that every nabi is a resool? In other words, they are two distinct concepts. However, the logical answer is that a nabi HAS to also be a resool, because he prophecies. However, that does not mean that there can be a nabi without being a rasool. Khidr for examples prophesied and was very wise, but he didn't preach; he could have been a nabi, but not a rasool. Baha'u'llah is a resool, but not a nabi; he doesn't have to prophecy anymore if he is the prophecy in the first place.

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Well any true investigation of truth is always welcome if when the truth becomes evident the person accepts it and does not run away from acceptance.

Rejecting the Islamic belief of Khatamiyat is very important for the Baha'i cult as the foundation of this cult is based on the rejection of this truth.

Mr.Hamza should reply to the following:
What is the reason for considering the Bab and Baha as prophets on the basis of his argument while at the same time rejecting Mirza Gulam Ahmed Qadiani and many others who have claimed to be Prophets.

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The Holy Quran clearly declares:
“Mohammed (pbuh) is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the seal (last) of the Prophets. And God is Aware of everything.”
(Ref: The Chapter of Ahzab, verse 40)

The above verse unequivocally announces the end of divine prophethood and messengership.

The Prophet of Allah (pbuh) affirmed: “The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me.”
(Ref: Tirmidhi, Kitab-ur-Rouya Babu Zahab-un- Nubuwwa, Musnad Ahmad, Marwiyat-Anas bin Malik)

 

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Salam! 

Please do not call the Baha'i Faith a cult, because it is not. Regardless, we do accept that Khatimiyyat of Risalah, but not Nubuwwa. We simply interpret differently. And, why do we reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmed? Because a prophet is measured by his or her fruits. What benefit has Ghulam Ahmed brought to humanity? What benefit has he brought by saying that Jesus went to Kashmir? Nothing. Utterly nothing. The Baha'i Faith's emphasis on unity is the fruit of the religion. His calls to the world leaders to unite before the world wars is a call for unity. And, now... look at this! We live in shame as we haven't answered the calls of God himself. (I am not saying Baha'u'llah is God, but his message is from God."

 

Able Faadhil, you mention a hadith. I told you my interpretation. But, let me ask you, how about the hadith of Imam Sadiq? The hadith that the Mahdi comes with a new book, and a new law?

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Interpretation of Quran can only come from ahlul bait and no other source. We cannot simply interject our own interpretations into Quran. Ahlul bait have been clear on Rasoulallah being the final prophet and that no prophet will be after him. 

The following 3 Hadith explain the importance of imamat and the number of imams and that immamat continues till the judgement day.

Importance of knowing imam of our time

After Rasoullah, there are the 12 infallible imams as authority of Allah upon us, and this will continue till judgment day.

‘One who dies without recognising the Imam of his time dies the death of ignorance.

There are only 12 imams, not 1 more or less

[...] and Abdul Aziz narrated, that Abu Abdullah (a.) has said: "The Imams after the Messenger of Allah (s.) are Twelve, who are excellent and explaining, whoever reduces them by one, or adds one to them, has left the religion of Allah, and he has nothing to do with our Wilayah."

Shia References.

Source: Mustadrak al-Wasā’il by Ṭabarsī - Ḥusayn al-Nūrī, Volume 18, page 177, Hadith # 16

 

Imammat is continuous and till the day of judgement.

 Narrated to us my father; and Muhammad bin Hasan - may Allah be pleased with them - they said: Narrated to us Saad bin Abdullah that: Narrated to us Muhammad bin Isa bin Ubaid; and Muhammad bin Husain bin Abil Khattab from Muhammad bin Fudail from Abi Hamza Thumali from Abi Abdullah (a.s.) that he asked him:

“Can the earth remain without an Imam?” He replied: “If the earth is without an Imam for a moment, it will indeed sink into itself.”

http://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/chapter-21-necessity-imam-every-age

 

As you can see, there is no room here for additional imam or new prophets after Rasoullah.  

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The role of infallible imam as successor of Rasoullah is to continue, expand and implement the existing religion and not to modify or bring new Quran. The hadith from imam Sadiq bringing new book is simply invalid. Imam Sadiq has said that imam mahdi will be brining back islam in full. It will be as though it's a new religion for people as they have been distant from it. 

Muhammad Ibn Ijlan narrated:
Imam al-Sadiq (AS) said, "When our Qa'im rises he shall call people anew to Islam and shall guide them to the things that were annihilated and from which people had turned away. He is called Mahdi because he will guide people to the thing from which they have been separated. He is called al-Qa'im because of his rise for the truth."

" al-Irshad, v2, p383; Bihar al-Anwar, v51, p30, Hadith 7.

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