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In the Name of God بسم الله

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On 12/21/2016 at 1:53 PM, Hamzah J. said:

Salam! 

Please do not call the Baha'i Faith a cult, because it is not. Regardless, we do accept that Khatimiyyat of Risalah, but not Nubuwwa. We simply interpret differently. And, why do we reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmed? Because a prophet is measured by his or her fruits. What benefit has Ghulam Ahmed brought to humanity? What benefit has he brought by saying that Jesus went to Kashmir? Nothing. Utterly nothing. The Baha'i Faith's emphasis on unity is the fruit of the religion. His calls to the world leaders to unite before the world wars is a call for unity. And, now... look at this! We live in shame as we haven't answered the calls of God himself. (I am not saying Baha'u'llah is God, but his message is from God."

Able Faadhil, you mention a hadith. I told you my interpretation. But, let me ask you, how about the hadith of Imam Sadiq? The hadith that the Mahdi comes with a new book, and a new law?

And so the ahmadiya would accuse you of the same. In fact they actually call to unity or something exactly the same as your group.

Just to clarify, your group things the mahdi has already come, there are more prophets to come, and your figures such as Bab are a manifestation of God on earth, is this true?

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Hi,

Let's not talk about Ahmediya. It's not the topic. The topic is Baha'i Faith; not Ahmediya and I don't know much about it anyways.

And, we believe that the Bab was the spiritual return of the Mahdi and the beginning of the new cycle in prophethood. And, Baha'u'llah is the spiritual return of Jesus Christ. In 1000 years a new prophet will come, with a new revelation.

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On 1/20/2017 at 5:59 AM, Hamzah J. said:

1) First of all, I do not know much about Seth. However, if he did have to hide his religion, that doesn't mean he did not have any good fruits. Of course, he had to have a few followers, even if it was in secret. And, the fruits don't have to show during his only life time. They could be after his death. We remember him now for his fruits as a prophet. However, Mirza Ghulam was a different story. If the root is wrong, then everything is wrong. They accept a Sunni approach to the successor of Muhammad, which already is a deviation. We Baha'is accept the Shi'a approach. Secondly, just look at the Ahmedi sect. I'm not saying they are wrong, but just look at their practices! Ex communication, full control of members, etc. It is crazy. You know we Baha'is don't have this. Yes, we do ex communicate people who deviate from the covenant, but not people who leave. My brother left the Faith with no problem at all.

2) Baha'u'llah's purpose was not unity, really. Unity of mankind is an inevitable process. Baha'u'llah came as a mubashir and a nadhir, a warner of a proclaimer of happy tidings to all. Unity was the bishara; however, we need to do it right and this is what we warned. Of course, Baha'is won't be controlling the world when unity occurs; simply, we might offer suggestions from our holy writings to improve the united system.

3) Regarding the Khadtmeiyat; first of all, the Qur'an is the most important text in Islam. What I mentioned earlier about nabi and rasul could be irrelevant, since it is only a Baha'i response, but Baha'u'llah never mentioned it; in fact, Baha'u'llah says that Muhammad sealed the prophethood and the messenger-ship. However, Baha'u'llah did say, and I believe I have mentioned this earlier, that a prophet is the beginning and the last. The Qur'an says this, too. Adam was the first, but he was also the last.  Muhammad was the last but also the first. There is no beginning, no last. Baha'u'llah is Jesus, is Muhammad, is Adam. This a cycle never ending. A circle has no beginning and no end. 

4) Because Baha'is made it up to justify their claims. It's not accurate, since Baha'u'llah does not mention it.

5) Regarding the Mahdi, what do you think? Come on guys. If you blame me for misinterpreting something clear, then the Hadith I mentioned to you is as clear as the sun. what do you think "book" means. A "new" book? Clearly, a new revelation. A new "amr"? It's so clear. Now, I know what will you next. Why is it that sometimes you say something is metaphorical and sometimes say its literal. Here's an explanation: http://bahaiteachings.org/decoding-prophetic-code-one-bahai-example.

Thank you.

PS: please, if we were to have a proper conversation, don't call the Baha'i Faith a cult.

1. Thanks for acknowledging your ignorance about Prophet Shees (as).

An independent investigator would study about a subject which he is unaware of instead of commenting about it and also drawing baised conclusions from it in favour of his own ideology.

This is for your claim of being an independent investigator.

Secondly for rejection of Gulam Ahmed Qadiani you insist on fruits being measured. (Please refer your post on December 21) For being measured the fruits should be seen and also be attributed to the originator. But when you talk about Prophet Shees(as) (about whom by your own confession you don't know much) you make a wild assumption that his fruits showed after his death!!!!

Mr. Hamza is this an approach of an independent investigator?

An independent investigator will look at facts impartially and will make conclusions on their basis. In your case you are justifying everything just to confirm to your innovative ideology.

You don't adopt the Shia approach.
Shia approach is that they believe in the 12th Imam being alive and present. 

The Shia believe Prophet Muhammad(saw) to be the last Prophet.

Shias believe in physical Resurrection unlike the Baha'i. And this is another reason for your disbelief other than khatamiyat.

Its good that you have confessed that you excommunicate your members.( just like a cult would do.)

It is good that you don't have a government any where in the world other wise you would have made life hell for anyone who left your cult just as you make life hell for those you excommunicate.

Steven Scholl an ex-Bahai says 
...I received a letter from a Baha’i Continental Counsellor indicating that I was under threat of being declared a Covenant-breaker, the impact on me personally was less than on my family. My wife is a Baha’i as are many of her family members, . . . The very real threat of being declared a Covenant breaker meant my wife had to face the decision of joining me as a heretic or divorcing me so that she could maintain her relationships with her family and other lifelong friends. Since [my wife] had no intention of divorcing me, the choices then extended out to her family. Her sister would not refuse to socialize with us so she would automatically be declared a covenant breaker along with her husband and children. Many of my close Baha’i friends would also be faced with the decision of maintaining friendships or joining me as a heretic. The whole thing is absurd and quite medieval. But it does raise the issue which you point out so well; how anyone would want to belong to a group which is willing to act this way and be so cruel is beyond me. That is why I voluntarily left the religion. Not in order to escape punishment but because the Baha’i community had become such an unhealthy place spiritually. I was terribly saddened that my spiritual home of 25 years had turned into a prison and nightmare..................

Web: http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Scholl3

2. As regards Unity,
You have said in your latest post that:
"Baha'u'llah's purpose was not unity, really. Unity of mankind is an inevitable process. Baha'u'llah came as a mubashir and a nadhir, a warner of a proclaimer of happy tidings to all."

However on 22nd December you said:
"The Baha'i Faith's emphasis on unity is the fruit of the religion. His calls to the world leaders to unite before the world wars is a call for unity. And, now... look at this! We live in shame as we haven't answered the calls of God himself. (I am not saying Baha'u'llah is God, but his message is from God.)"

Your own words contradict your own words. This is shows that your claim of independent research is just a ploy to come amongst the Shia and do propaganda about your cult.

And you deserve to be called a cult as by rejecting Khatamiyat, Mahdaviyat as well physical Resurrection and adopting a barbaric and medivial practice like excommunication you no longer deserve to be called a faith.

3. Again thanks for confessing that 'Bahaullah' never mentioned what you have previously mentioned about "Nabi" and "Resool".

You have previously boasted about your knowledge of Arabic.

Definately you must then be knowing that the word "Nabiyyen" in the verse 40 of Surah Ahzab is a plural of "Nabi" means He(saw) was the last of the Prophets and not just the last Prophet.

So your wild and irrational argument that every Nabi is a first as well the last Prophet falls flat on its face.

I am also surprised that you are still harping on your invalid interpretation of Nabi and Resool inspite of very clear and categorical traditions quoted previously about Anbiya being the bigger group and every Resool being a Nabi and not vice versa. Thus the last Nabi will automatically be the last Resool also.

As per principles of independent research one must first put forward convincing evidence for rejection of the adversary's proof before continuing to harp on one's own ideas. By failing to reply to the Shia idea of Nabi and Resool and ignoring evidence in its support you have once again put a question mark about your integrity as an independent investigator.

4. Again thanks for scoring a self goal by confessing that the interpretation of Nabi and Resool is made up by the Baha'is and Bahaullah never mentioned it.
So if the Baha'i expect from the Shia that they should not understand their religion from the Ahlulbait(AS) but from the UHJ, it's a long hope which will never see the day of light.

5. Regarding the lone tradition about which you have continued harping inspite of evidence being presented for the weakness in its chain as well as presence of innumerable reliable traditions to the contrary again exposes your insincerity in the investigation of truth.

You expect us to accept your innovative interpretation of Nabi and Resool but reject our interpretation supported by innumerable reliable evidences!!!

Indeed poor is your judgement!!!

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On 1/22/2017 at 7:20 AM, Hamzah J. said:

Hi,

Let's not talk about Ahmediya. It's not the topic. The topic is Baha'i Faith; not Ahmediya and I don't know much about it anyways.

And, we believe that the Bab was the spiritual return of the Mahdi and the beginning of the new cycle in prophethood. And, Baha'u'llah is the spiritual return of Jesus Christ. In 1000 years a new prophet will come, with a new revelation.

So thats actually identical to ahmadiya.

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See how Baha'is treat those that disagree with the mainstream Baha'i sect and exert information control on them:

http://lavaleo.tripod.com/cgi-bin/ross.html

As you can see, one poor Baha'i decided that the mainstream Baha'i leadership was wrong. He was subsequently excommunicated and then all Baha'is were ordered:

"Anyone who receives a communication from Mr. Campbell should be advised to inform the National Spiritual Assembly immediately, to delete it unopened, and make no response."

These Independent Investigators of truth are also labelled as haters of light and sufferers from spiritual leprosy by Baha'i leaders:

" It is better not to read books by Covenant-breakers because they are haters of the Light, sufferers from a spiritual leprosy, so to speak. " ( Helen Bassett Hornby, Lights of Guidance: A Bahā’ī Reference File (New Delhi: Bahā’ī Publishing Trust, 1983), chap. XII, no. 628 )

Edited by hadez803
typo

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Hello Hadez,

(and everyone here)

I came here to see what you guys think of the Faith I've been in for so long. Seeing what you had to say made me think more about my faith and thanks for that. I mentioned that I have to study more about Shia Islam and Islam, in general. 

Regarding the messages you sent, I actually talked to the Baha'i community to why this is happening, because to be honest, so many people in my Baha'i community have chosen to follow Mirza Muhammad Ali or Mason Remey and we just avoid talking about religion to them. And to those who leave, we haven't treated them anywhere close to badly. So, yes, we are asked to delete messages from them, because we don't want to cause conflict. However, inflicting harm on them... that's not going to happen.

However, I do see your objections, of course, and will look further into it.

Till next time,

Peace.

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On 1/23/2017 at 3:06 AM, Hamzah J. said:

Hello Hadez,

(and everyone here)

I came here to see what you guys think of the Faith I've been in for so long. Seeing what you had to say made me think more about my faith and thanks for that. I mentioned that I have to study more about Shia Islam and Islam, in general. 

Regarding the messages you sent, I actually talked to the Baha'i community to why this is happening, because to be honest, so many people in my Baha'i community have chosen to follow Mirza Muhammad Ali or Mason Remey and we just avoid talking about religion to them. And to those who leave, we haven't treated them anywhere close to badly. So, yes, we are asked to delete messages from them, because we don't want to cause conflict. However, inflicting harm on them... that's not going to happen.

However, I do see your objections, of course, and will look further into it.

Till next time,

Peace.

Dear Hamzah,

I was following all this discussion from the beginning, thought to add some more points to Hadez's comment. Please find the same below. Just click the links and see how Baha'i Administration has control over Baha'i individuals, their activities etc. I can also show you (if you request) many examples where Baha'i books have been altered / changed by the Baha'i Administration, these are English books written by prominent Baha'is during the 'Heroic Age' of the Baha'i faith.

Link 1 :

Taheripg5.JPG

Link 2 :

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/talk.religion.bahai/vADOLX3mNKg

Link 3 :

I will be happy to add more links after reading your response.

Thank you for giving me opportunity to write something in this regard.

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Hello,

Thank you, Badi, for sharing these. I would look further into them. 

Do you think that this is what Baha'u'llah intended to see in the Baha'is; or are Baha'is not following their own laws and ordinances? 

Hamzah

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Hamza if you really are a simpleton as you are now projecting yourself (Initially you were projecting the image of a hardcore Baha'i), then this discussion must have made it clear to you that since no Prophet is to come after Muhammad(saw), so Bahaullah was a bogus propelled by the then czarist regime for creating disturbances in the then Persian empire and this same movement is now in the service of Zionism.

Following or not following a false prophet is of no consequence at all. A person will physically suffer in hell. Until of course he remains true to his intention of independent investigation and returns to the real last message of Allah (Islam).

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Farhana! I never said that! The Baha'i Faith is still the faith I have been in for so long. I have the right to doubt it. And, I am not projecting myself as a hardcore Baha'i. I was protecting and justifying my Faith. You guys have given me insight into things I could research. I am not rejecting it. I am just doubting it and I have the right to do that. 

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Hamza!
You started with this question:

"I am interested in creating a HEALTHY debate about whether or not Baha'u'llah and the Bab are truly prophets."

Now that you are doubting your beliefs, do contemplate seeking help from God.

Even I have been following this discussion keenly and this has further strengthened my belief in Shiaism.

May Allah guide you to the religion which is near to Him  so that you may save yourself from eternal condemnation.

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On 1/24/2017 at 1:16 AM, Hamzah J. said:

Hello,

Thank you, Badi, for sharing these. I would look further into them. 

Do you think that this is what Baha'u'llah intended to see in the Baha'is; or are Baha'is not following their own laws and ordinances? 

Hamzah

Dear Hamzah,

I see Baha'u'llah as an Imposter so I cannot reply what he intended to see for his followers. I see Baha'i faith as a world scam and I thank to the internet that it is exposed now. There are so many issues with it, that I can keep writing and writing. It is a total failure. I will just give an example from India where there were ~11000 Baha'is in 2001. This number dropped to ~4500 Baha'is in 2011 but Baha'is shamelessly claim that there are ~2.2 million Baha'is in India. I can provide verifiable evidences if you request.

If you want to know more about my findings just give me a signal and I will start posting the stuffs here.

All the best to you.

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On 1/24/2017 at 6:49 PM, Hamzah J. said:

Hi Badi,

Is it possible here to able to talk on a persona level? Instead of using the forum?

Thanks!

Why not? you can PM me. By that time see this interesting video :

All the best.

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