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In the Name of God بسم الله

Help needed about Shiism

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Salaam, 

I am also a sunni but want to research into Shiism.I accept Twelve Imams but I am stuck here that how could imams be chosen by Allah. I've seen the sahih international translation (just because I found difference in that of different ulemas) of Surah Maidah, ayat 55 and Surah Baqrah ayat 124. In Surah Maidah It is translated as your ally instead of your guardian. I accept Surah Baqrah ayat 124 as basis that God chose leaders but according to Shias it is choosing at that particular time. And they can try not to do any sin and were successful because they were humans and humans are statue of mistakes and sins. As for prophet and said in Surah Fatah  ayat 2. But other than this Allah has forgiven as in  Surah Ahzab ayat 33. So It is difficult for me to accept that all were immune to sins. 

One thing more That How can Hazrat Ali (R.A) and Hazrat Fatima (R.A) and Imam Husayn and Imam Hasan be made of light. There isn't any hadith as far as I think in sunni text proving that. We just believe that Holy Prophet (S.A.W) was made of noor only.

 And also about the story of Mushaf-e-Fatima. 

About Maatams. 

Any Shia brother or Sister can help me in this matter.

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Regarding 5:55,

"Your guardian is none but Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakat while bowing." (5:55)

The word for guardian in the verse above is wali, which comes from the same root as ulil amr in 4:59. In the Quran, the word is always used in conjunction with God's authority over the creation (wilaya), as can be seen in 2:107, 2:120, 2:257, 3:68, 3:122, 4:45. 4:119, 6:14, 6:127, 7:155, 7:196, 9:74, 9:116, 12:101, 13:37, 18:17, 18:26, 29:22, 32:4, 33:17, 33:65, 34:41, 42:8-9, 42:28, 42:31, 42:44, 45:19, and 48:22. Most of these verses emphasize that only Allah is our wali, and that besides Him, we have no protector, no guardian, no helper, and no master. The above verse however extends this wilaya to the Messenger, because it is through the Messenger that Allah is sought. It also extends it to those who "give zakat while bowing". Since this is the only verse where Allah includes people in His otherwise solitary authority, this third category cannot simply refer to humble believers. It must refer to a vicegerent that has a share in this grand wilaya.

Even this idea of one giving charity whilst in ruku` sounds quite rare, and indeed, 5:55 is not an ordinary verse. Both Ibn `Abbas and Mujahid ibn Jabr, who are among the earliest authorities in tafsir, note that the verse is referring to an incident in which `Ali (as) gave his ring to a beggar whilst in ruku`. This is also referenced in Tabari, Zamakhshari, al-Wahidi, and other Sunni commentaries. The implication therefore is that Imam `Ali (as) has been distinguished as a master of all believers - his authority being an extension of God's authority.

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58 minutes ago, Syed Mohammad Abbas Ali said:

 

Salaam, 

I am also a sunni but want to research into Shiism.I accept Twelve Imams but I am stuck here that how could imams be chosen by Allah

 

Salam,

As you mentioned, your answer is in the Quran, when **Allah makes Ibrahim (a) an Imam.**

The word جعل Ja- ala means " makes " it does not mean " choses".

Quran 2:124:

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ **إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ** قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

And Ibrahim was tested by words from His Lord, which he fulfilled. ***He said: "I will make you an Imam for the people.*** "
He said: "And also from my progeny?" 
He said: "My pledge will not encompass the oppressors." (2:124)

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Okay... But how after the demise of Prophet (S.A.W)??

I asked one of my Shiite friend that is it through a revelation..??but he couldn't clarify me.. 

And what does the last line of that verse literally means... As I have seen that other than Shiites, in Sunnism as well many great scholars and leaders were born. You might know their names to whom almost every Sunnis regard them as Imam but Shiites don't. 

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12 hours ago, Syed Mohammad Abbas Ali said:

Okay... But how after the demise of Prophet (S.A.W)??

I asked one of my Shiite friend that is it through a revelation..??but he couldn't clarify me.. 

And what does the last line of that verse literally means... As I have seen that other than Shiites, in Sunnism as well many great scholars and leaders were born. You might know their names to whom almost every Sunnis regard them as Imam but Shiites don't. 

On the day of ghadeer, The Imam and successor of the prophet was sent as a revealation to announce to the people that Ali is your guardian after me...

Quran:


"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)

Even if argument sake the prophet did not leave a successor by the command of God, isn't it common sense to seek the most knowledgable man to be our leader? 

It was a known fact among the 3 khalifas that Ali was the most knowledgeable and highest in taqwa from amongst them.

Who we choose as our leader reflects the level of intelligence we are at. So choosing less than best, shows a deficit in our intellect, and ignorance.

As you may know the word Imam means leader, even in the Quran we have a verse that there is a Imam for the kafir.

So imam is a general word.

The highest and most perfect imam is the one God appoints, the rest are self proclaimed or titles given from human to another human... 

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On 12/10/2016 at 5:19 PM, certainclarity said:

Salam,

As you mentioned, your answer is in the Quran, when **Allah makes Ibrahim (a) an Imam.**

The word جعل Ja- ala means " makes " it does not mean " choses".

Quran 2:124:

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ **إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ** قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

And Ibrahim was tested by words from His Lord, which he fulfilled. ***He said: "I will make you an Imam for the people.*** "
He said: "And also from my progeny?" 
He said: "My pledge will not encompass the oppressors." (2:124)

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Recently, to give you a little bit of background (and you can find videos for what I am about to say), Hassan Allahyari has been going after a different crowd.  He has been calling Sunni learned men living in the UK and challenging them to debates.  In one of his recent bravado, Allahyari called some Maulvi Zafarullah Shah.  Before a time and date could be determined for the debate, Shah wanted to gauge Allahyari so he asked Allahyari about Imamat and Allahyari wanted to lock it in as a debate topic.  Citing that he had about 10 minutes to spare, Shah pressed Allahyari to give him a preview of Imamat.  When Allahyari was done - and obviously he made it clear that only Allah (swt) appoints leaders or Imams - Shah countered him with the following verse to which Allahyari had no response.  All Allahyari could do was rant about how the Qur'an can be recited in different dialects and quoted some narration from Al-Kafi which is not binding upon us.  The video is available on YouTube.  Anyways, here is the verse which Shah quoted:

"And those who pray, 'Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous.' " (Qur'an 25:74)

transliteration: Wa Al-Ladhīna Yaqūlūna Rabbanā Hab Lanā Min 'Azwājinā Wa Dhurrīyātinā Qurrata 'A`yunin Wa Aj`alnā Lilmuttaqīna 'Imāmāa

How is it possible that only Allah (swt) appoints Imams (ra) but also praises people to supplicate for their offspring to be Imams?  Is it a fixed matter (as you claim) or open to prayer and suggestions?

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@onereligion

Imagine you are top ceo of a family company which is important to you.You know all your family members very well. 

You have two sons, both request you to hand over the business to them.( Supplicate to you- freewill to ask, but no guarantee it will granted until the condition is met)

You already know who is worthy of handling the affairs of your business.

Are you going to leave the future of your business for them to decide?

Or you already know who is best for running the business and tell them both, " You both have stated your request, but the business will be handed over to the one who is the most just "

Hence:

 
He said: "My pledge will not encompass the OPPRESSORS." (2:124)

Although they had supplicated for it.

If the offsprings would be unjust and oppressors in Allah's knowledge no matter how much they supplicated it would not be granted.

Allah would appoint  the one he knows that is not an oppressor.

Bottom line, Dua is just what it is Dua... So any one can supplicate but there is NO guarantee it will be granted...

Just like the supplication of Prophet Noah was rejected when he asked Allah to save his son. 

Quran:

And Noah called to his Lord and said, "My Lord, indeed my son is of my family; and indeed, Your promise is true; and You are the most just of judges!" (11:45)

He said, "O Noah, indeed he is NOT of your family; indeed, he is [one whose] work was other than righteous, so ask Me not for that about which you have no knowledge. Indeed, I advise you, lest you be among the IGNORANT." (11:46)

 

 

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2 hours ago, certainclarity said:

@onereligion

Imagine you are top ceo of a family company which is important to you.

Bottom line, Dua is just what it is Dua... So any one can supplicate but there is NO guarantee it will be granted...

Just like the supplication of Prophet Noah was rejected when he asked Allah to save his son

-  Why would I imagine that?  This is not a company we are talking about.  It is not even about me, in case you were too busy typing without sparing a moment for reflection.  It is about your claim.  If Imams (ra) are appointed by Allah (swt), why do Muslims make that supplication even till this very day?

You believe that there is an Imam in occultation.  Do you still not make that supplication?  For what?  To have another rival Imam?  Do you see where I am going with this?  This has nothing to do with me or your imaginary company.  It has to do with your claim which does not find any foundation in the Qur’an.  On the contrary, we find the opposite of your claim.

 

-  So every Muslim is wasting his time when he supplicates, “Rabbanā Hab Lanā Min 'Azwājinā Wa Dhurrīyātinā Qurrata 'A`yunin Wa Aj`alnā Lilmuttaqīna 'Imāmāa”.  

However, let us see what guarantee the Qur’an gives in the next two verses.
“Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy: therein shall they be met with salutations and peace; Dwelling therein;- how beautiful an abode and place of rest!”

So there is a guarantee for those who make that supplication.  One more of your claims that could not stand the test of Qur'an.

 

-  Nooh (asws) did not supplicate for his son to be an Imam after him so it is best we leave out any irrelevancy.

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44 minutes ago, onereligion said:

-  Why would I imagine that?  This is not a company we are talking about.  It is not even about me, in case you were too busy typing without sparing a moment for reflection.  It is about your claim.  If Imams (ra) are appointed by Allah (swt), why do Muslims make that supplication even till this very day?

You believe that there is an Imam in occultation.  Do you still not make that supplication?  For what?  To have another rival Imam?  Do you see where I am going with this?  This has nothing to do with me or your imaginary company.  It has to do with your claim which does not find any foundation in the Qur’an.  On the contrary, we find the opposite of your claim.

 

-  So every Muslim is wasting his time when he supplicates, “Rabbanā Hab Lanā Min 'Azwājinā Wa Dhurrīyātinā Qurrata 'A`yunin Wa Aj`alnā Lilmuttaqīna 'Imāmāa”.  

However, let us see what guarantee the Qur’an gives in the next two verses.
“Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy: therein shall they be met with salutations and peace; Dwelling therein;- how beautiful an abode and place of rest!”

So there is a guarantee for those who make that supplication.  One more of your claims that could not stand the test of Qur'an.

 

-  Nooh (asws) did not supplicate for his son to be an Imam after him so it is best we leave out any irrelevancy.

I am not here to debate you. You stated your point of view. I stated mine.

If Allah can appoint a prophet, Allah definitely can appoint an Imam.

regardless of prophet, Imam, Nabi etc. It is just common sense to take knowledge from the most learned. 

Lets even leave Imamat aside. Take that I agree with you.

The difference between shia school of thought and sunni school of thought, is Learning from the best, and second best.

I would compare the words of Ali and his linage of 12 to that of all sunni revered figures. 

And choose the wisest of speech, and follow that, and choose them to be my teachers even if not imams in this case.

Its not rocket science, just compare the words from Ali, and the other twelve guys from his linage to that of Abu bakr, Umar, Osman, Abu Hanifa, Etc...

Both Abu bakr and Osman claimed to be ruined in front of Ali in terms of religion,and also Abu hanifa , Imam Malik from Jafar as Sadiq.

Sunni school of thought call their four sources of fiqh Imam: Abu hanifa,Imam malik, Hanbali, Shafei. their leaders in fiqh ( Imam in fiqh)

If I were to give the title of Imam and follow that teacher as my leader whether God has appointed them or not, It would be Ali, Jafar as Sadiq etc as my leaders in fiqh, because simply the knowledge from them is incomparable to that of sunni imami fiqh, even if they are not imams appointed by God, in this example...

Start with the explanation of tawhid from both schools of thought and reflect.

Bias creates blind spots.

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1 hour ago, onereligion said:

-  Why would I imagine that?  This is not a company we are talking about.  It is not even about me, in case you were too busy typing without sparing a moment for reflection.  It is about your claim.  If Imams (ra) are appointed by Allah (swt), why do Muslims make that supplication even till this very day?

You believe that there is an Imam in occultation.  Do you still not make that supplication?  For what?  To have another rival Imam?  Do you see where I am going with this?  This has nothing to do with me or your imaginary company.  It has to do with your claim which does not find any foundation in the Qur’an.  On the contrary, we find the opposite of your claim.

 

-  So every Muslim is wasting his time when he supplicates, “Rabbanā Hab Lanā Min 'Azwājinā Wa Dhurrīyātinā Qurrata 'A`yunin Wa Aj`alnā Lilmuttaqīna 'Imāmāa”.  

However, let us see what guarantee the Qur’an gives in the next two verses.
“Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy: therein shall they be met with salutations and peace; Dwelling therein;- how beautiful an abode and place of rest!”

So there is a guarantee for those who make that supplication.  One more of your claims that could not stand the test of Qur'an.

 

-  Nooh (asws) did not supplicate for his son to be an Imam after him so it is best we leave out any irrelevancy.

Imaginary company is just an example being conveyed of reality, even if everyoine in my company was asking me to be CEO, obviously I cant pick everyone, there can only be one ceo next. Like wise even if we all ask Allah to make us leaders of the righteous, not all will be leaders of the righteous, and that was expressed in the Quran. This shouldnt be difficult to understand, as simple as comparison and similitude.

You can also notice that any leaders or imam in the Quran are chosen by Allah.

So i can say yes, me supplicating for certain things does not mean I will, get because Allah knows what is best. If everyone is a leader, then who do we follow? "Too many chiefs, not enough indians" comes to mind.

And I dont seek leadership.

With regards to Nuh (a), that shows sometime even prophet supplications are not answered, in some cases.

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36 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

I am not here to debate you. You stated your point of view. I stated mine.

If Allah can appoint a prophet, Allah definitely can appoint an Imam.

The difference between shia school of thought and sunni school of thought, is Learning from the best, and second best.

Its not rocket science, just compare the words from Ali, and the other twelve guys from his linage to that of Abu bakr, Umar, Osman, Abu Hanifa, Etc...

- Fair enough.  We both stated our points.  I countered your claim with proof.  You showed us your typing skills.

- Allah (swt) can appoint anyone for any task but is your claim that only He (swt) appoints Imams (ra) in the way that you restrict it by and in the same light that you present them as true?  No!  The Qur'an refutes it.

- The difference between Shia and Sunni schools, as we have learned over the course of many debates in the past and this very cordial discussion, is that the former is rooted in whims whereas the latter finds its foundations in the Qur'an.  Speaking of learning from the best, Sunnis take from the Prophet (saw) which is why our narrations go back to him, not his descendant 5 generations removed.  Anyone better than the Prophet (saw)?

- Does the Qur'an assign "Ali, and the other twelve", you mean other eleven (may Allah's peace be upon them), any special tasks when nine of them were born AFTER the completion of the revelation of the Book?  No!  Yet you tie them into your usool without being able to prove it from the source. Finding your own usool in the Qur'an makes rocket science look like an elementary school level problem.

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8 minutes ago, Hashasheen217 said:

Imaginary company is just an example being conveyed of reality, even if everyoine in my company was asking me to be CEO, obviously I cant pick everyone, there can only be one ceo next. Like wise even if we all ask Allah to make us leaders of the righteous, not all will be leaders of the righteous, and that was expressed in the Quran. This shouldnt be difficult to understand, as simple as comparison and similitude.

You can also notice that any leaders or imam in the Quran are chosen by Allah.

So i can say yes, me supplicating for certain things does not mean I will, get because Allah knows what is best. If everyone is a leader, then who do we follow? "Too many chiefs, not enough indians" comes to mind.

And I dont seek leadership.

With regards to Nuh (a), that shows sometime even prophet supplications are not answered, in some cases.

The appointment of Imam is just one of the problems among many which all go back to the very concept Imamat being absent from the Qur'an.  Nothing you said addresses the problem here nor does it alleviate the grief for some of our brothers here, including yourself.

If Imams are appointed by Allah (swt), why are we still making that supplication?  The 12 Imams (ra), according to you, have already been selected and declared.  Would you then say that Allah (swt) is misguiding us - naudhubillah - when He urges us to make a certain supplication when the matter is already sealed?  

Why do you consider this supplication to be valid and perhaps still use it when you believe that the 12 Imams (ra) have already been sent to the world?

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My friend, you are making that supplication, not every makes the same supplications just because its found in Quran, some people go there whole lives without reading Quran.

In a sense you are right, but not really, if you notice the children of isreal 'asked the prophet to appoint' an imam for them, and Allah CHOSE, 2:245-248. And some rejected, sounds familiar...

So there is a bases of asking Allah, but we do not know better than Allah, Allah knows what is best for us, even though we may dislike it(some of us)...

The case of Harun is another example of a Prophet making Dua for a family member for help with the task of prophethood, which still shows, ultimately Allah chose, or else Musa(a) would not have asked.

If by our concept of IMamate meaning Allah chooses who leads, how do you not see it in the Quran? With all the examples that are there.

Please also study both sides of the story of Ghadeer, in an unbiased manner.

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If the Imams (a) were explicitly mentioned in the Quran, jealous and spiteful rulers would have altered or removed those lines to suit their own ends. God says he preserved the Quran, and that's how he did it. Not through a magic wand, but through the organization and content of words used, carefully crafted. 

Just indirect enough to avoid the destruction by  the hypocrites, but clear enough for true believers with a clear mind and heart to see it directly. 

Pretty impressive. 

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22 minutes ago, Hashasheen217 said:

If by our concept of IMamate meaning Allah chooses who leads, how do you not see it in the Quran? With all the examples that are there.

Please also study both sides of the story of Ghadeer, in an unbiased manner.

I do not see it in the Qur'an because it does not exist in the Qur'an.  What examples are you talking about?

In the very next line, after informing me that there are many examples in the Qur'an, you reference the Hadith of Ghadeer.  Is that in the Qur'an?  Nope!  Next time, come with a viable argument which lines up with the Qur'an, Hadith and history.  Then we can take you seriously.

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23 minutes ago, magma said:

If the Imams (a) were explicitly mentioned in the Quran, jealous and spiteful rulers would have altered or removed those lines to suit their own ends. God says he preserved the Quran, and that's how he did it.

Of all the things that an All-Powerful God can do to preserve His Word, an Islamic sanctuary or just purely Islam itself - with many examples found in the Qur'an namely, people of Lut (asws), Fir'aun, Surah Al-Feel - that is the only way of preserving the Qur'an you come up with?  

At least your explicit statement has an implicit meaning which is your admittance that neither Imamat nor the Imams (ra) are explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an.  And if we cannot find a root for something in the Qur'an, and in the case of Imamat you have conceded we cannot, then it is not an usool and therefore undeserving of any insertion (into the religion) with the aid of secondary (to the Qur'an) sources.

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Just now, onereligion said:

Of all the things that an All-Powerful God can do to preserve His Word, an Islamic sanctuary or just purely Islam itself - with many examples found in the Qur'an namely, people of Lut (asws), Fir'aun, Surah Al-Feel - that is the only way of preserving the Qur'an you come up with?  

There's plenty of other ways my friend, but I'm no expert. 

Eat it up!

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some of The cases of the following:
Ibrahim, Allah made him an Imam
Moses and Harun, musa asked Allah to share his task with his brother, musa even left his brother in charge and his brother was rejected, and a golden calf was worshipped... sounds familiar
Talut, Allah made him an Imam
Dhul Qarnain, Allah established him as a righteous servent ruler

What you can also do is find the Qualities of leadership in the Quran, and line up these quaties with all the companions and see who fits the qualities best...

Is it really hard to believe that Allah preserves his this Deen and Quran by different means when the children of isreal have acted as such towards the prophets: 2:61, 2:91, 3:21, 3:183, and there are more like this.

Surah 5 verse 67 is in relation to ghadir...

Please be like just judge and learn from multiple perspective with regards to Quran and historical details... if you want truth then just ask Allah, He wont lie to you...

 

Also 28:5 is very clear...

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@onereligion

Fair enough,if you take your sunnah directly from the prophet, so start from yourself and dump abu bakr, Umar,Osman, Saheeh bukhari, Sahih muslim, Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik, Hanbal, Shafei, Dr. Rashed...No need for any of them.

Just guess and imagine what the sunnah of the prophet was and go according to that...and only stick to the Quran, no need for narrations from anyone whether sunni or shia.

 

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@Hashasheen217

The cases found in the Qur'an are not under scrutiny here; your claim (or belief) is.  If Allah (swt) strictly appoints Imams (ra) with no input from anyone whatsoever then why the supplication in the Qur'an?  Either the Qur'an got it wrong or you.

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12 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

@onereligion

Fair enough,You can think for yourself so start from yourself and dump abu bakr, Umar,Osman, Saheeh bukhari, Sahih muslim, Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik, Hanbal, Shafei, Dr. Rashed...

Just guess and imagine what the sunnah of the prophet was and go according to that...and only stick to the Quran, no need for narrations from anyone.

 

What does this have to do with the discussion?  I can see you trying to make the waters murky but have an ounce of integrity and show me where I said that we should abandon the Prophetic tradition.  If you cannot, and I know you cannot, then you should answer my question or go back to your unfounded usool.  Yes, I said usool (even in my previous post) because an usool must first be established (at least clearly pronounced) in the Qur'an.

By the way, if you want foundational proof for the remaining four usools - Tauheed, Nubuwwah, Adl and Qiyamah - then I can do that only if you promise that you will bring one verse in its likeness in favor of Imamah which can stand by itself - without any external aid - to establish Imamah.

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1 hour ago, onereligion said:

- The difference between Shia and Sunni schools, as we have learned over the course of many debates in the past and this very cordial discussion,*** is that the former is rooted in whims whereas the latter finds its foundations in the Qur'an.  Speaking of learning from the best, Sunnis take from the Prophet (saw) which is why our narrations go back to him, not his descendant 5 generations removed.  Anyone better than the Prophet (saw)?***

The Shia school of thought after the prophet's death is taken from Ali, then his son, and the linage continues back to back.Ali narrates from the prophet.

Sunnis narrate from the prophet mainly thru Abu hurrira !

There is no 5 descendant gap.

Sunnis narrations start from Sahih bukhari, a person who lived almost 150 years after the prophet, and never even met the prophet.

Huge time gap!

For Shias atleast 3 Imams saw and lived during and with the prophet. Ali, Hassan, Hussain.

The shia narrations are back to back.

Unless you have telepathy with the prophet, you can skip sahih bukhari...

Plus the prophet raised Ali, not abu bakr, umar or Osman..,

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15 minutes ago, onereligion said:

The cases found in the Qur'an are not under scrutiny here; your claim (or belief) is.  If Allah (swt) strictly appoints Imams (ra) with no input from anyone whatsoever then why the supplication in the Qur'an?  Either the Qur'an got it wrong or you.

We can always make dua for whatever we want.

My question for you, do you have any say in the affairs of Allah?

Are you Allah's partner?

If you ask Allah for the best leader for the righteous, but he appoints someone you dislike, didnt he still just answer you dua?

Weather or not the dua is made for leadership Allah has already chosen, this should be easy for you if you believe Allah knows better than you, and is the best of planners and that maybe you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like that what is bad for you.

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The desperation on everyone's part thus far only proves one thing.  In order to squeeze something in the Qur'an, you have to bring up imaginary scenarios, verses that do not do anything for your beliefs and random examples.  If you understand the Qur'an for what it says rather than what you were told it says, life is much easier.

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Sorry brother, but this site is called shia chat not sunni chat, If we were desperate to prove ourselves we would be trying to prove ourselves and doing dawah on a sunni forum.

You can keep your beliefs to yourself we can keep ours.

لكم دينكم ولي دين

No one is forcing you to believe what we have to say, and neither will accept your interpretation of Quran being forced on us.

You said that you are not an expert ( "  There's plenty of other ways my friend, but I'm no expert" ) so it would be rather absurd to take explanation from a person who says he is not an expert,when the Quran says ask the people of reminder if you do not know,so your interpretation of the Quran is baseless for us...

unless you consider yourself people of the reminder from the sunni sect.

If we are misguided May " Allah" guide us, if you are misguided may " Allah" guide you.

We don't need each others guidance if Allah is there to guide whom he wills.

There are plenty of threads on Imamat here, if you want to understand, but you are here just to argue and debate, so good luck on that.

Wasalam

Edited by certainclarity
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23 minutes ago, certainclarity said:

You said in your own words that you are not an expert ( "  There's plenty of other ways my friend, but I'm no expert" ) so it would be rather absurd to take explanation from a person who says he is not an expert,when the Quran says ask the people of reminder if you do not know,so your interpretation of the Quran is baseless for us...

Actually I said this, in all fairness. But the rest of your post is correct. 

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@certainclarity

I wanted to address everything you have said in this post but I chose not to because of what you said though I do not understand the need for Allah (swt) being in quotation marks: If we are misguided May " Allah" guide us, if you are misguided may " Allah" guide you.

Aameen!

Edited by magma
Replaced long quote with tag
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@onereligion

You're a guest here. Common sense etiquette dictates one to be a reserved, polite, listener-and go overboard with the respect, even to an annoying degree. Not banging on the door, screaming demands, and insulting your host. Are you here to learn or "expose"? Why would anyone want to participate in a discussion with that intention?

Unlike Sunni forums, we don't use profanity or ban the opposite sect on the spot for asking simple questions. So have some humility. You're representing your madhab, so you have more pressure to be sweakier clean than if you were among your like minded chums. 

Or you can just reply with abrasiveness as usual...

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6 hours ago, magma said:

@onereligion

You're a guest here. Common sense etiquette dictates one to be a reserved, polite, listener-and go overboard with the respect, even to an annoying degree. Not banging on the door, screaming demands, and insulting your host. Are you here to learn or "expose"? Why would anyone want to participate in a discussion with that intention?

Unlike Sunni forums, we don't use profanity or ban the opposite sect on the spot for asking simple questions. So have some humility. You're representing your madhab, so you have more pressure to be sweakier clean than if you were among your like minded chums. 

Or you can just reply with abrasiveness as usual...

Common sense etiquette?  Is this coming from those who curse the wives (ra) and the Companions (ra) of the Prophet (saw)?

By all means, I'll keep my abrasiveness and you keep your clowning.

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