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Hussein_Valerio

Quranic and Hadith proofs for those Bible verses

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Asalamu aleykum wr wb my brothers and sisters

I want to ask you if there are any Quranic and Hadith sources for those Bible verses. My mother is a Christian lady and she show me that verses. Another question is: How is it that the Bible calls Jesus son of God and Allah swt should be the father? I found even enough Bible verses who explain that God is one and almighty, however this son and father thing is confusing me a bit, but I can remember there was something about the difference of the translation of the Bible like differences in Latin, Hebrew, Aramean and Greek. I would be glad if someone can send me good sources.

Wa salam:)

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28 minutes ago, Hussein_Valerio said:

I found even enough Bible verses who explain that God is one and almighty, however this son and father thing is confusing me a bit, but I can remember there was something about the difference of the translation of the Bible like differences in Latin, Hebrew, Aramean and Greek. I would be glad if someone can send me good sources.

The belief in a Trinity emerged during the time of Paul, during the time of the Council of Nicaea the Christians were divided as to whether to believe in a Trinity or Unity of God's nature.

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Son of God is likely a title, in the Old Testament(Psalm 2:7) which is attributed to King David, it refers to him as not only the son of God, but begotten son...

"I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee",

They don't take King David to be literally the son of God, so why Jesus? Christians say Psalm 2 actually refers to Jesus, but I feel that isn't the case.

Edited by Kilij

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The God Julius Caesar

BY PAUL WILLIAMS on SEPTEMBER 25, 2016 ( 4 )

Reblogged from Professor Bart Ehrman’s Blog

13898759165_dff5e32420_b

I mentioned in a previous post the scarcely-remembered-these-days Diogenes Poliorcetes (Diogenes, the Conqueror of Cities), who was acclaimed as a divine being by a hymn-writer (and others) in Athens because he liberated them from their Macedonian overlords.   I should point out that this great accomplishment paled with time, and he did some other things that the Athenians did not find so useful or approve of, and the rescinded their adoration of him.

My point was that sometimes military men/political rulers were talked about as divine beings.  More than that, they were sometimes *treated* as divine beings: given temples, with priests, who would perform sacrifices in their honor, in the presence of statues of them.  Does that make the person a god?  In many ways they would be indistinguishable.  If it walks like a god and quacks like a god….

Best known are the divine honors paid to rulers of the Roman Empire, starting with Julius Caesar.   We have an inscription dedicated to him in 49 BCE (five years before he was assassinated) discovered in the city of Ephesus, which says this about him:

Descendant of Ares and Aphrodite

The God who has become manifest (θεὸν ἐπιφανῆ)

And universal savior (σωτῆρα) of human life

Prior to Julius Caesar, rulers in the city of Rome itself were not granted divine honors.  But Caesar himself was – before he died, the senate approved the building of a temple for him, a cult statue, and a priest.  None of these were actually put in place before he was assassinated in 44 BCE.  But soon after his death, his adopted son and heir, Octavian (who later was to become Caesar Augustus) promoted, successfully, the idea that at his death Caesar had been taken up to heaven and been made a god to live with the gods.

Octavian had reasons of his own for wanting the divinization of Caesar.  In the political realm, there was still civil war taking place, and by having his father divinized, it marginalized the enemies of Caesar who had assassinated him (senators such as Brutus and Cassius).  That didn’t put an end to the civil war, because Octavian still had to deal with Mark Antony (the one, as it turns out, who had been appointed to be the priest for Caesar’s cult!), who was off now in Egypt conspiring with his lover Cleopatra for power.   But the divinization of Caesar did put the party supported by Cassius and Brutus in a deeply problematic position.  They were eventually taken out of the equation, in a rather brutal way.  As happens with civil wars….

There was another obvious reason that Octavian wanted his adopted father to be declared a God.  If his father was God, what does that make him?

There was a celestial event that helped solidify the idea that Caesar had been divinized.  In ancient Rome, religious ceremonies and other major events were sometimes accompanied (strangely in our view) by staged athletic contests.  In 42 BCE, there were athletic contests organized to commemorate the death of Caesar, organized by Octavian.  On the first day of the contests, a comet appeared in the sky, and it remained visible for seven days.  Octavian declared that it was in fact the soul of Caesar ascending to the realm of the gods.  A rather fortuitous event!

This divinization of Caesar set the precedent for what was to happen with the emperors, beginning with the first of them, Octavian himself, who became “Caesar Augustus” in 29 BCE.  Even during his lifetime Augustus was revered in some parts of the empire – some of the Eastern, Greek-speaking provinces (where there had been a long tradition of revering rulers as embodiments of divine power) – as a divine being.  And so, there is an inscription that survives from his lifetime found in the city of Halicarnassus (modern Turkey), which calls Augustus:

…The native Zeus

and Savior (σωτὴρ) of the human race

So he is God, the Savior.  Sound familiar?  He was also the “son of God.”  And the “Lord.”  These, of course, are all titles widely used by Christians of Jesus.  They did not come up with these titles out of the blue.  These are things said of another divine-man – the Roman emperor – before they were said of Jesus.  For the early Christians the idea was not that Jesus was the only person who was ever called such things (even though that is the case for most modern Christians).  Jesus was being called things that the emperor before him was called.  This was a competition.

 

Source: https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/09/25/the-god-julius-caesar/

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7 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Son of God, children of God - is a metaphorical expression of endearment throughout the old and new testament. Just like father was a majestic expression. The Roman emperors enforced a more literal meaning later on.

The Roman emperors didn't enforce this belief. It was already in existence before they got involved.

6 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

The belief in a Trinity emerged during the time of Paul, during the time of the Council of Nicaea the Christians were divided as to whether to believe in a Trinity or Unity of God's nature.

Trinitarians believe that there is unity in God's nature as well. Nicea was about whether Jesus was co-equal with the Father, or whether he was a 'created god'. This belief was known as Arianism, and actually became the majority belief for a while after Nicea. Contrary to the idea that Trinitarianism was a creation of Roman emperors and enforced on people, Constantine's son was actually against it:

Quote

Constantine's son Constantius II, who had become Emperor of the eastern part of the Empire, actually encouraged the Arians and set out to reverse the Nicene creed. His advisor in these affairs was Eusebius of Nicomedia, who had already at the Council of Nicea been the head of the Arian party, who also was made bishop of Constantinople.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism#Aftermath_of_Nicaea

As for Paul, it's not all that clear he was a Trinitarian. He seems to believe that Jesus is in some sense divine, but it's not that clear he believed the same about the Holy Spirit, or even that he believed that Jesus was equal with the Father.

37 minutes ago, Hussein_Valerio said:

Asalamu aleykum wr wb my brothers and sisters

I want to ask you if there are any Quranic and Hadith sources for those Bible verses. My mother is a Christian lady and she show me that verses. Another question is: How is it that the Bible calls Jesus son of God and Allah swt should be the father? I found even enough Bible verses who explain that God is one and almighty, however this son and father thing is confusing me a bit, but I can remember there was something about the difference of the translation of the Bible like differences in Latin, Hebrew, Aramean and Greek. I would be glad if someone can send me good sources.

Wa salam:)

I'm not really sure what you are asking here. Our belief is that the Bible contains elements of what were once divine revelation, but that much of it is the creation of men, or has been distorted over the course of time. Therefore there are some things that will agree with the Qur'an and hadiths, and others that won't.

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2 hours ago, Hussein_Valerio said:

Asalamu aleykum wr wb my brothers and sisters

I want to ask you if there are any Quranic and Hadith sources for those Bible verses. My mother is a Christian lady and she show me that verses. Another question is: How is it that the Bible calls Jesus son of God and Allah swt should be the father? I found even enough Bible verses who explain that God is one and almighty, however this son and father thing is confusing me a bit, but I can remember there was something about the difference of the translation of the Bible like differences in Latin, Hebrew, Aramean and Greek. I would be glad if someone can send me good sources.

Wa salam:)

bismillah.gif

Walaykum salam wa rahmatullah wa barakato my brother.

I cant advice you on what you are asking because I have not read the Holy Bible but I can give you an advice that I am sure it will be to your satisfaction In Shah Allah. Try telling her that this Final Revelation (the Holy Quran) is a Miracle of God. It has a lot of Miracles here how you can prove it. Challenge your mom if you want to read it they Holy Quran to know the truth, this Holy Quran will guide her to the truth 100% guaranteed,  But if she reads it to find error in it, it will mislead her.  If she reads it with an open mind and heart, it will maker her understand to her own level of education/profession. Let her know that the Holy Quran, talks more about Moses a.s, Jesus a.s  and other prophets a.s  than Prophet Mohammad s.a.w himself. Brother, instead of arguing with her about the difference between the Holy Bible and Holy Quran, talk about the similarities between the two Holy Books and In Shah Allah she will start reading the Holy Quran and Allah will guide her In Shah Allah.

Wasalam my brother wa rahmatullah e wa barakato.

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1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

Yes it was already in existence and the emperors enforced it.

In what way? There was a major theological dispute going on, which was causing all kinds of problems among Christian Roman citizens, so the Emperor Constantine, who wasn't a Christian at this point and probably didn't really care much which side won, called a council to settle the matter. Both sides in that council believed that Jesus was the divine son of God. What was in disputes was just how divine he was. In fact, you could argue that the losing side (Arianism) held to a position that more closely resembled the pagan one, because pagans didn't believe their 'sons of God' were co-equal and co-eternal with God.

And anyway, as I showed in my previous post, the emperors following Constantine were enforcing the position that lost at Nicea.

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4 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

That quote is very informative. I can't believe that the theologian Collin Brown does not have a page at Wikipedia. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Brown_(theologian)

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Christians do not fully agree what doctrine of trinity is. Some of us even rejecting the idea that slowly developed during the first 3 centuries of Christianity. Is there anything in Pauls letters that suggests he was a trinitarian? I dont think so. 

As for divine emperors the first I can think of were the Pharaos of Egypt, the most recent the Japanese emperors until WW2. In between there were others like  Alexander the great and some in Rome before Christianity became religion of state.

 

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On 8.12.2016 at 10:26 PM, Enlightened Follower said:

The God Julius Caesar

BY PAUL WILLIAMS on SEPTEMBER 25, 2016 ( 4 )

Reblogged from Professor Bart Ehrman’s Blog

13898759165_dff5e32420_b

I mentioned in a previous post the scarcely-remembered-these-days Diogenes Poliorcetes (Diogenes, the Conqueror of Cities), who was acclaimed as a divine being by a hymn-writer (and others) in Athens because he liberated them from their Macedonian overlords.   I should point out that this great accomplishment paled with time, and he did some other things that the Athenians did not find so useful or approve of, and the rescinded their adoration of him.

My point was that sometimes military men/political rulers were talked about as divine beings.  More than that, they were sometimes *treated* as divine beings: given temples, with priests, who would perform sacrifices in their honor, in the presence of statues of them.  Does that make the person a god?  In many ways they would be indistinguishable.  If it walks like a god and quacks like a god….

Best known are the divine honors paid to rulers of the Roman Empire, starting with Julius Caesar.   We have an inscription dedicated to him in 49 BCE (five years before he was assassinated) discovered in the city of Ephesus, which says this about him:

Descendant of Ares and Aphrodite

The God who has become manifest (θεὸν ἐπιφανῆ)

And universal savior (σωτῆρα) of human life

Prior to Julius Caesar, rulers in the city of Rome itself were not granted divine honors.  But Caesar himself was – before he died, the senate approved the building of a temple for him, a cult statue, and a priest.  None of these were actually put in place before he was assassinated in 44 BCE.  But soon after his death, his adopted son and heir, Octavian (who later was to become Caesar Augustus) promoted, successfully, the idea that at his death Caesar had been taken up to heaven and been made a god to live with the gods.

Octavian had reasons of his own for wanting the divinization of Caesar.  In the political realm, there was still civil war taking place, and by having his father divinized, it marginalized the enemies of Caesar who had assassinated him (senators such as Brutus and Cassius).  That didn’t put an end to the civil war, because Octavian still had to deal with Mark Antony (the one, as it turns out, who had been appointed to be the priest for Caesar’s cult!), who was off now in Egypt conspiring with his lover Cleopatra for power.   But the divinization of Caesar did put the party supported by Cassius and Brutus in a deeply problematic position.  They were eventually taken out of the equation, in a rather brutal way.  As happens with civil wars….

There was another obvious reason that Octavian wanted his adopted father to be declared a God.  If his father was God, what does that make him?

There was a celestial event that helped solidify the idea that Caesar had been divinized.  In ancient Rome, religious ceremonies and other major events were sometimes accompanied (strangely in our view) by staged athletic contests.  In 42 BCE, there were athletic contests organized to commemorate the death of Caesar, organized by Octavian.  On the first day of the contests, a comet appeared in the sky, and it remained visible for seven days.  Octavian declared that it was in fact the soul of Caesar ascending to the realm of the gods.  A rather fortuitous event!

This divinization of Caesar set the precedent for what was to happen with the emperors, beginning with the first of them, Octavian himself, who became “Caesar Augustus” in 29 BCE.  Even during his lifetime Augustus was revered in some parts of the empire – some of the Eastern, Greek-speaking provinces (where there had been a long tradition of revering rulers as embodiments of divine power) – as a divine being.  And so, there is an inscription that survives from his lifetime found in the city of Halicarnassus (modern Turkey), which calls Augustus:

…The native Zeus

and Savior (σωτὴρ) of the human race

So he is God, the Savior.  Sound familiar?  He was also the “son of God.”  And the “Lord.”  These, of course, are all titles widely used by Christians of Jesus.  They did not come up with these titles out of the blue.  These are things said of another divine-man – the Roman emperor – before they were said of Jesus.  For the early Christians the idea was not that Jesus was the only person who was ever called such things (even though that is the case for most modern Christians).  Jesus was being called things that the emperor before him was called.  This was a competition.

 

Source: https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/09/25/the-god-julius-caesar/

Thats also what made me thinking a lot. The Bible was changed so much by the Romans and many things what Catholic or Orthodox Christianity have today is mostly adopted by the Romans from Pagan influence like even rules who are not even compareable to the Bible.

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On 9.12.2016 at 0:04 AM, Endtimes said:

bismillah.gif

Walaykum salam wa rahmatullah wa barakato my brother.

I cant advice you on what you are asking because I have not read the Holy Bible but I can give you an advice that I am sure it will be to your satisfaction In Shah Allah. Try telling her that this Final Revelation (the Holy Quran) is a Miracle of God. It has a lot of Miracles here how you can prove it. Challenge your mom if you want to read it they Holy Quran to know the truth, this Holy Quran will guide her to the truth 100% guaranteed,  But if she reads it to find error in it, it will mislead her.  If she reads it with an open mind and heart, it will maker her understand to her own level of education/profession. Let her know that the Holy Quran, talks more about Moses a.s, Jesus a.s  and other prophets a.s  than Prophet Mohammad s.a.w himself. Brother, instead of arguing with her about the difference between the Holy Bible and Holy Quran, talk about the similarities between the two Holy Books and In Shah Allah she will start reading the Holy Quran and Allah will guide her In Shah Allah.

Wasalam my brother wa rahmatullah e wa barakato.

Wa aleykum salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh brother

At the moment she refuse to have a look in the Quran. I tried many times to explained it her, but she only say "Why you deny the verses in the Bible" which make me the discussion not always easy. I think Hadith are important sources also and they can help you also to understand the Quran. There are many important Shiite ancient books which non muslims should try to read to understand what Islam and the Ahlul Bayt (as) means. Its also nowadays a problem that non muslim people can not view a difference from the Quran in their main language and Arabic language and the real meaning of the verses.Thank you for your advice brother and Inn Shah Allah she will collect good experiences.

Wa Salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

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14 hours ago, andres said:

Christians do not fully agree what doctrine of trinity is. Some of us even rejecting the idea that slowly developed during the first 3 centuries of Christianity. Is there anything in Pauls letters that suggests he was a trinitarian? I dont think so. 

As for divine emperors the first I can think of were the Pharaos of Egypt, the most recent the Japanese emperors until WW2. In between there were others like  Alexander the great and some in Rome before Christianity became religion of state.

 

I believe that the Bible deny the Trinitiy a lot and there are several verses who proof this. Trinity is from pagan influence and it was used by the Romans like for their Gods like this: Jupiter (the roman God as the father role), Juno (wive of the God) and Minerva (the daughter). Not only Romans also like the Hindus who called it Trimurti and those are Brahma (the creator), Vishnu (the keeper) and Shiva (the destroyer). Do you know this story about Arius from Alexandria who was one the ancient Christians scholars who denied the trinity and believed in the absolute unity of one god. Constantin was the one who decide about the Trinity and the ancient Christians didnt had any choice to talk or defend themselve about this thing.

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1 hour ago, Hussein_Valerio said:

I believe that the Bible deny the Trinitiy a lot and there are several verses who proof this. Trinity is from pagan influence and it was used by the Romans like for their Gods like this: Jupiter (the roman God as the father role), Juno (wive of the God) and Minerva (the daughter). Not only Romans also like the Hindus who called it Trimurti and those are Brahma (the creator), Vishnu (the keeper) and Shiva (the destroyer). Do you know this story about Arius from Alexandria who was one the ancient Christians scholars who denied the trinity and believed in the absolute unity of one god. Constantin was the one who decide about the Trinity and the ancient Christians didnt had any choice to talk or defend themselve about this thing.

My signature has the trinity verses. The Nicene Council were the ones who established the trinity doctrine. I don't believe it was the Roman Catholics. I have heard of the hindus similar belief but they also add many other minor deities along with those 3. Bible was only translated into different languages we still have the preserved versions bc your Quran demands we judge by our scriptures.

Quran 5:47 - And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

Quran 10:94 - So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

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11 hours ago, Hussein_Valerio said:

I believe that the Bible deny the Trinitiy a lot and there are several verses who proof this. Trinity is from pagan influence and it was used by the Romans like for their Gods like this: Jupiter (the roman God as the father role), Juno (wive of the God) and Minerva (the daughter). Not only Romans also like the Hindus who called it Trimurti and those are Brahma (the creator), Vishnu (the keeper) and Shiva (the destroyer). 

The Bible never mention trinity. Trinity is a later theological conclusion that after much discussion became dogma. Influenced by pagan religion? Maybe, maybe not. But certainly all religion have influences from religions preceeding them.

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