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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Eventually it will become a crisis and we will have to figure out what to do with all the excess people. I fear it won't be pretty, but I hope we can come up with a peaceful and productive solution when the time comes. 

Maybe it will be like Star Trek; maybe it will be like The Time Machine.

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This is no good. Automation of labour under capitalism poses a huge threat to humanity. This isn't just the future, this is the continuation of a historical phenomenon. The demand/value of human labour in developed countries is rapidly decreasing, the developing world is poised to follow. Soon there won't be a working class, just a bunch of people who will be completely disposable and useless to the elites, and they very well might dispose of us or increase demands on us and find "other" uses for us...

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37 minutes ago, sidnaq said:

i dont like the idea of driverless cars. one less job for humanity to do. we all cant sit around and be creative, and why lessen work where we use our senses. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, zainabamy said:

Sounds great but at the same time a recipe for disaster 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Those electrical and mechanical malfunctions aren't going to be pretty. Allah forbid it happens during a congested street.

Benefits of self driving cars; 

  1. The headway (distance) between the cars can be significantly reduced, hence allowing high density along with high speed. With human drivers, it is not possible because humans are required to maintain a certain distance based on their speed and reaction time. You won't feel comfortable to drive at 100 kph with only 1 meter distance between vehicles.
  2. The speed limits can be increased (to design speed without safety margin) as the driver-less vehicles' reaction time would be very little as compare to humans.
  3. Vehicle-to-Vehicle (V2V), Infrastructure-to-Vehicle and Vehicle-to-Infrastructure communication technology along with driver-less technology can reduce delays at signalized intersections both by reducing the "waves" (as mentioned by Peter Gribble) and also the imperfect signal cycle timing (extra red or extra green or yellow time). I personally feel that if this is perfectly executed, it can eliminate the need for signals.
  4. Furthermore, driver-less vehicles along with V2V can "work together" and aim for System Optimal routes which will decrease the total travel time of the system as a whole. But, humans would still want their driver-less vehicles to select routes which will minimize their individual travel time (User Equilibrium).

 

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25 minutes ago, Hassan Y said:

Even fast food restaurants like Mcdonalds have started to put robots instead of humans to take your order and make your food. The world is just evolving and you can't anything about it.

 

19 minutes ago, notme said:

Eventually it will become a crisis and we will have to figure out what to do with all the excess people. I fear it won't be pretty, but I hope we can come up with a peaceful and productive solution when the time comes. 

Maybe it will be like Star Trek; maybe it will be like The Time Machine.

Just for you guys

 

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44 minutes ago, Kilij said:

This is no good. Automation of labour under capitalism poses a huge threat to humanity. This isn't just the future, this is the continuation of a historical phenomenon. The demand/value of human labour in developed countries is rapidly decreasing, the developing world is poised to follow. Soon there won't be a working class, just a bunch of people who will be completely disposable and useless to the elites, and they very well might dispose of us or increase demands on us and find "other" uses for us...

l really do hate to write this introductory sentence, yet supposedly, lt is different this Time. Uhh, l wrote it.

Supposedly, what is "different" this time is that unlike in the past when automation and some mechanization produced more jobs than it reduced, now, jobs are being completely replaced as if these jobs are outsourced.

Referral: l started a thread on this in the Econ section entitled Career Caution and Considerations.

Edited by hasanhh
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59 minutes ago, Kilij said:

This is no good. Automation of labour under capitalism poses a huge threat to humanity. This isn't just the future, this is the continuation of a historical phenomenon. The demand/value of human labour in developed countries is rapidly decreasing, the developing world is poised to follow. Soon there won't be a working class, just a bunch of people who will be completely disposable and useless to the elites, and they very well might dispose of us or increase demands on us and find "other" uses for us...

YOOOOOO  I COMPLETELY AGREE, I WAS THINKING THE SAME THING, DEVELOPED COUNTRIES, AND THESE DEVELOPING ONES COULD FOLLOW, I PRAY THAT DOESNT HAPPEN.i dont understand the point of this. are people trying to be like steve jobs??? are they really going to go this far in tech.

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1 hour ago, notme said:

Eventually it will become a crisis and we will have to figure out what to do with all the excess people. I fear it won't be pretty, but I hope we can come up with a peaceful and productive solution when the time comes. 

Maybe it will be like Star Trek; maybe it will be like The Time Machine.

YOOOOOO I AGAIN COMPLETELY AGREE. as i said earlier, all this excess tech may not help people, like how the internet could actually be damaging to us. 

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41 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

l really do hate to write this introductory sentence, yet supposedly, lt is different this Time. Uhh, l wrote it.

Supposedly, what is "different" this time is that unlike in the past when automation and some mechanization produced more jobs than it reduced, now, jobs are being completely replaced as if these jobs are outsourced.

Referral: l started a thread on this in the Econ section entitled Career Caution and Considerations.

It isn't different so much as just accelerated, automation has always reduced "necessary" labour time. The difference lies in our economic system and global markets/trade. Under feudalism it was just expected of us to work to provide for both ourselves and for our lords, there wasn't anything voluntary about us working(which was bad) or our lords obligation to provide for us(which was a good thing). Capitalism made it voluntarily transactional, mercantile classes sold goods, workers sold themselves(or their labour, to specific), so both had something to offer the new elite which gave them limited leverage over the elite and room to ask for demands. The same system exists today as in early capitalism, our class's labour is our raison d'etre and our ONLY raison d'etre, Once we get to the point where robots labour better than us, we won't have anything to offer for goods and services and nothing to offer to the elites to win their graces. Under capitalism this would make us useless and dependent, just like a pet, they may even stop educating us to the point where we are just a pet, not even able to communicate with them, only to offer for them an emotional lifeform to keep them company. Or worse, imagine this automation under an ultra-nationalist regime, where status may be doled out based on race? We won't have any bargaining chip to make demands.

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@Kilij  I basically do not agree. Unemployment levels have always been a persistent problem. In the First or Second Century CC, The Roman Emperors banned machines in most things, excluding cranes and such, because this way more free and slave labor would be employed. Then after the Fall in the 6th Century, Europe was in survival mode until the 12th Century. After this, extra labor could subsist in the country sides. Then labor becomes a mixed bag. Now with 60+% urban populations on the global scale, we are in continuous disruptions.

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Just now, hasanhh said:

@Kilij  I basically do not agree. Unemployment levels have always been a persistent problem. In the First or Second Century CC, The Roman Emperors banned machines in most things, excluding cranes and such, because this way more free and slave labor would be employed. Then after the Fall in the 6th Century, Europe was in survival mode until the 12th Century. After this, extra labor could subsist in the country sides. Then labor becomes a mixed bag. Now with 60+% urban populations on the global scale, we are in continuous disruptions.

I had to correct myself to say "necessary" labour, of course the elites can do things to force us to work when it's not need, it's even worse now. That example actually helps my argument, unemployment is often because we are not needed, not always because of underemployment(being needed but not being employed to the task at hand) which is obviously the case when an emperor is just banning technology to employ people and maintain the status quo. We worked much way less time with fewer guaranteed 'benefits' under feudalism than we do now under capitalism. I'm not saying your wrong entirely, but the blame for this lies with human social organization, not the development of technology itself. But that said, under our current social organization, automation is a terrible thing, we should even rise to the task of actively fighting it until we've rid of capitalism.

 

My method of saving humanity from automation would be as follows.

1. End Capitalism and adopt a classless society.

2. Carefully define what it means to be human and what values and traditions we have that machines could never replace(love, religion/spirituality, and philosophy). Nihilists Need not apply...

3. Regulate Automation, if apparently creativity could be automated though according to that "Humans Need Not Apply" video yet we still obviously want creativity as an expression of the values we set in point #2, we should simply ban machines from doing such and other things we want to remain human, probably including the programming of machines.

Only then may we be free and live in a world without oppression.

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22 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

@Kilij  "end capitalism" ?

In the US 40% of those employed are already 'employed' by some level of gov't.

So is your substitute 'solution' --we all get gov't jobs and drive our economy by regulating and policing each other?

I never said it was going to be easy, if you want my personal opinion, we're too late and already are merely talking about a losing battle, nothing short of divine intervention will save us, but we need to keep trying to fight this battle so we can be worthy of that intervention.

 

But no, I'm against statism as much as I am against capitalism. Stalinism failed, Fascism failed(though people seem eager to have another go at it), and Capitalism has and continues to lead us down the road to ruin. I myself am a Libertarian Socialist politically, I see this as the only political option we have to be both free and to have sustainable society. If you have a better solution we all have ears, but capitalism is surely going to end us. Any efforts to save humanity is commendable even if you don't put a name/ideology behind it.

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5 hours ago, sidnaq said:

i dont like the idea of driverless cars. 

Did you see the video of the Montreal car pile up, where professional bus drivers couldn't control their vehicles? 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235044789-montreal-car-pile-up/

Cities or countries that have sleet, ice and snow should not allow driverless cars. It's too dangerous.

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7 minutes ago, hameedeh said:

Cities or countries that have sleet, ice and snow should not allow driverless cars. It's too dangerous.

I don't know. It could turn out to be safer than human drivers. A computer's reaction time is less than 1/100th a human's, and it never gets sleepy or distracted, and never panics. I'd worry more about glitches or malicious hacking than about safety in challenging driving situations. I took an intro to transportation engineering class in the mid 90s, and the professor was certain that self-driving cars would be common by 2010, and required by law by 2020. In some ways I'm glad he was wrong. I actually like to drive. I wouldn't mind having automated assistance as an option, but I don't want to relinquish full control. 

 

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3 hours ago, hameedeh said:

Did you see the video of the Montreal car pile up, where professional bus drivers couldn't control their vehicles? 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235044789-montreal-car-pile-up/

Cities or countries that have sleet, ice and snow should not allow driverless cars. It's too dangerous.

oh yes i have heard of this video but i didnt see it, but yes, human mind would have a good understanding. driverless cars, even i wouldnt trust in those countries, no matter how advanced.

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