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Laayla

General Neutral Pronoun

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

0:42 he says "let me talk to her"  She says, don't call me that please, for him not to call her "her".  She says you won't use my pronouns, she wants to me be called, ze or hir.

  Nominative (subject) Objective (object) Possessive determiner Possessive Pronoun Reflexive
Traditional pronouns
He He laughed I called him His eyes gleam That is his He likes himself
She She laughed I called her Her eyes gleam That is hers She likes herself
It It laughed I called it Its eyes gleam That is its It likes
itself
They They laughed I called them Their eyes gleam That is theirs They like themselves
Invented pronouns
Ne Ne laughed I called nem Nir eyes gleam That is nirs Ne likes nemself
Ve Ve laughed I called ver Vis eyes gleam That is vis Ve likes verself
Spivak Ey laughed I called em Eir eyes gleam That is eirs Ey likes
emself
Ze (or zie) and hir Ze laughed I called hir Hir eyes gleam That is hirs Ze likes hirself
Ze (or zie) and zir Ze laughed I called zir Zir eyes gleam That is zirs Ze likes zirself
Xe Xe laughed I called xem Xyr eyes gleam That is xyrs Xe likes xemself

By now most of the country is familiar with the story of one professor, Jordan Peterson, at the University of Toronto, who has expressed strong and vivid dissent over the university’s attempt to force him to use certain words — ersatz pronouns, a batch of neologisms (ze, zim, zer, and a raft of others, in place of he or she) coined by progressive groups, intended to apply to students who “self-identify” as other than the archaic and obsolete designations of man and woman.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/rex-murphy-jordan-peterson-a-real-professor-at-last

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

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Jordan Peterson's video on refusing to use general neutral pronouns.

2:08 You won't use my pronouns, I'm pretty sure you are my enemy.

 

 

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This is actually a general phenomenom happening in universities (university students usually develop enough maturity to accept their gender identity at that stage).

I don't really see the problem referring to someone the way they prefer. The issue for him is that it is enforced by law. It's not to be confused with transphobia, nor one should understand that he believes it's wrong to use these pronouns (in a transphobic sense). It's a political matter related to free speech for him.

Edited by Bakir

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While I'm a strong believer that people are either male or female, with very few rare ambiguities, I'm going to call people what they ask me to call them. It's just polite. 

 

Edit: hypothetically. I've never met anyone who asked to be called by any of these words. 

Edited by notme
Added thought.

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1 hour ago, notme said:

While I'm a strong believer that people are either male or female, with very few rare ambiguities, I'm going to call people what they ask me to call them. It's just polite. 

 

Edit: hypothetically. I've never met anyone who asked to be called by any of these words. 

I have faced this only once, in the university.

When a student contacts the administration to inform of any change of identity (gender, name, etc.), we are asked to update our students list and call them by their preferred choice. Most of the cases are transgender people, but in some rare cases, they may be non-binary.

I also believe we were created in pairs, but gender identity (not biological sex) seems to be a spectrum. Queer or non-normative people have always existed, I don't know the causes and can't call it an illness without solid evidence. If such pronouns help in decreasing the number of suicides and social pressure of queer people, I don't find them negative but positive. The issue here is when this is enforced by law without further consideration.

Is rejecting using their preferred pronouns a hate crime, when the reason is precisely being against a speech enforced by law?

This is the dilemma.

I agree with the guy that such a law does no good to the LGBT community, because it is precisely such law enforcement what may make people be against using these pronouns, something that has nothing to do with LGBTphobia.

LGBT community shouldn't fight for rights in this way. Activism has never had this style, which looks more like fascism. I really can't relate with modern LGBT activism, it is highly stubborn and lacks strategy.

Edited by Bakir

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Rude isn't usually illegal. 

If some person decided to call me "sir" or "Henry" or "Mrs. Smith" or any other identifier that doesn't belong to me, I wouldn't consider it an attack, but rather a flaw in that person. It's just weird. 

If it went so far as to affect my work (for example refusing to acknowledge contributions under my chosen identifier) or my safety (for example a woman placed in a men's prison), that would be an attack. 

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What I have been able to appreciate is that we can't relate to that. In that sense, being called by the wrong gender won't affect us in the same way it may affect transgender people.

It's not an attack for us because we really don't care, nor have any trauma nor suffered any social pressure in that sense. However, people who don't identify with their normative gender identity feel other way. Our potential and reasonable lack of empathy (because we just can't relate) doesn't mean it's not an attack (though that depends on a variety of factors).

Two days ago I received an email informing me that one of my students is transitioning and wants to be treated as a female. If I choose to keep calling her by her male dead name and refer to her as a guy, and keep acting like that even though I'm asked several times to change my speech, then I may be attacking her, and reinforcing a discourse that could be seen as transphobic. Moreover, it would be reasonable to think it is psychologically disturbing that your teacher doesn't approve and publicly refuses to acknowledge your gender identity for ideological reasons.

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I, personally, would always intend to call people what they ask to be called. I can't imagine a reason to refuse. I can imagine forgetting or making a mistake. I don't believe such things should be legislated, but I do think manners should be a social expectation. 

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Just now, notme said:

I, personally, would always intend to call people what they ask to be called. I can't imagine a reason to refuse. I can imagine forgetting or making a mistake. I don't believe such things should be legislated, but I do think manners should be a social expectation. 

That's the thing. It's a matter of etiquette, no need to make laws for it. In my case as a teacher, there is no need for a specific law on queer pronouns. If it reaches the point where I'm causing psychological harm to one of my students, action can be taken against me without any law like that.

Mistakes are normal because it is not normative. In the specific case I mentioned before, before receiving that email, I was impressed to see my student with a flower in her hair. When I saw it I thought it was some sort of gay joke or something, but would have never thought she identified as a woman. Even her new name sounds non-binary, so couldn't really guess.

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I know a person who used to be male and is now female. It's strange and awkward to refer to this person, because she has children, but she certainly isn't a mother. It is strange to me to talk about these children's father, using feminine pronouns. 

Given that it is strange and awkward for me, I imagine it must be even more strange and awkward for her. I know for certain that I can't relate, any more than I can relate to the discrimination faced by black people or disabled people. 

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12 hours ago, notme said:

I know a person who used to be male and is now female. It's strange and awkward to refer to this person, because she has children, but she certainly isn't a mother. It is strange to me to talk about these children's father, using feminine pronouns. 

Given that it is strange and awkward for me, I imagine it must be even more strange and awkward for her. I know for certain that I can't relate, any more than I can relate to the discrimination faced by black people or disabled people. 

I agree. I think a lot of discrimination stems from this - some people can not relate to a situation that some other person is dealing with and so they assume that this situation doesn't really exist or is an invented psychological issue or something like that. They are just projecting their own lack of understanding on to someone else, often in a damaging way. I guess everyone does it to some degree until enough people push back against it.

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Lol what a strange phenomenon. People can have all sorts of psychological and mental issues and believe themselves to be whatever. There are old grown up men who identify as 6 yr old girls, should I respect that and call him a girl? Some guy might genuinely believe he is Batman or Superman or whatever due to a psychological problem. Where does it end? I am under no obligation to respect their feelings and views. I refer to them as they are. 

In fact it seems strange to me that people are supportive of confirming to people that their hallucinations are a reality.

Edited by Sumerian

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21 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Lol what a strange phenomenon. People can have all sorts of psychological and mental issues and believe themselves to be whatever. There are old grown up men who identify as 6 yr old girls, should I respect that and call him a girl? Some guy might genuinely believe he is Batman or Superman or whatever due to a psychological problem. Where does it end? I am under no obligation to respect their feelings and views. I refer to them as they are. 

In fact it seems strange to me that people are supportive of confirming to people that their hallucinations are a reality.

I need an icon to disagree with you but not respectfully lol.

You are comparing stuff that have nothing to do. Basically confirming what @Klanky said before, that ignoring someone's situation leads to lack of empathy and understanding.

Identifying as a kid is not the same as identifying with the opposite gender. There is a lot of literature on both topics and the scientific community usually describes as a psychological problem the first, but not the second. Mostly because the first has measurable causes leading to a pathological behaviour, while the second is more related to one's identity.

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2 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I need an icon to disagree with you but not respectfully lol.

You are comparing stuff that have nothing to do. Basically confirming what @Klanky said before, that ignoring someone's situation leads to lack of empathy and understanding.

Identifying as a kid is not the same as identifying with the opposite gender. There is a lot of literature on both topics and the scientific community usually describes as a psychological problem the first, but not the second. Mostly because the first has measurable causes leading to a pathological behaviour, while the second is more related to one's identity.

No, the second is a disorder. You ever heard of gender dysphoria? 

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Situation is out of control.  You can not force anyone to address them according to what they are not.  I see a man here, not a woman.  I will address him as sir too.  

contains f bombs

Edited by Hameedeh
Larger font and bold RED color.

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36 minutes ago, Laayla said:

^^^

this is a good poll question for the week.

What is more important having good manners?

Or saying the truth?

Agreed. That would make an excellent poll, and I'm guessing we'd be about evenly divided. 

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